The Greatest Argument In The Business: Sports Entertainment Or Professional Wrestling

[James Steele]

I recently watched a tape of RAW, the one with the infamous "Beer Bath", which was 6 days before WrestleMania XV. I saw it and truly realized just how damn different the WWE, and the business as whole aswell is today. No match had to be longer than say 6 minutes. While the segments took 20 minutes (the beer bath took around 30-40 minutes!) Only a few matches had a winner. I know this is also because it was the final build-up to WrestleMania XV, but you could still tell a huge difference in the booking, and the overall attitude of the show.

It really sparked the great debate in my head, Sports Entertainment or Pro Wrestling? I would make a poll, but I think that this is much broader that just "A or B?" so please explain why you enjoy one over the other, or if you like a equal balance, etc.


So here is my answer to the great debate:

I personally perfer pro wrestling over sports entertainment. Especially since I became a "smark" and focused on the matches instead of the angles. I fell in love with what went on in the ring. I have become a fan of technical wrestling especially. While I can enjoy a ladder match or the spot-fests. I would rather watch Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle in an ironman match.

I have grown to appreciate what I used to switch from Nitro to RAW from. I also saw a tape of WCW Nitro: Spring Breakout 1999. I fast-forwarded through most of it, until it came to a really good PSCHOLOGICAL match. Chris Benoit/Dean Malenko v. Raven (and later-on in the match) Perry Saturn. It was a complete beatdown by Malenko/Benoit on Raven.

Which brings me to another point of Pro Wrestling over Sports Entertainement. Ring Psychology. It is hard to find a wrestler with great ring psychology. Raven and Jake The Snake may not have been Bret Harts (who also had a great ring psychology) but during that 4Horsemen/Raven match. I almost forgot I was in 2004. I got sucked into the story they were telling. I wanted to see what would happen on Thunder. Today, people rely on angles and storylines to tell the story instead of where it should be told... the ring. Now, I know that angles and stuff are a necessity (Pro wrestling does not mean NO ANGLES WHATSOEVER, to me atleast), but they can't be the WHOLE story, or even MAJORITY of the story. This is why I am not a fan of deathmatches, because the weapons ARE THE STORY instead of a PART OF THE STORY. Pro Wrestling is a lost art in the world of Vince McMahon. Yes, the WWE and the indistry as a whole are going back to Pro Wrestling (ROH being a pime example, which I've never seen BTW) it is still angle-dependent to get the strory across. So I plead all of you to pull out those old tapes, or the recent DVD's that have come out, and fall in love with the lost art that is Professional Wrestling.

[Molly fan 25]

The asked shouldn't be which is better Pro Wrestling or Sports entertainment (though I will get into how you have to seperate the two later), it should be asked which gets better ratings Pro Wrestling or Sports entertainment? The answer is sports entertainment, but you can have equal parts (or close to it).

You see Pro wrestling is not a sport, it's scripted but I will call them athletes because I couldn't do what they do. Every match they know what's coming and what's going to happen, I was talking to Al Snows daughter a couple months ago and she said it's why she no longer watche's pro wrestling because she knows what's going to happen, but they have to make it seem fresh. If you were to watch it without any entertainment you would fall asleep, and that's why this question really can't be asked because you can't seperate the two completely. What you have to ask is which is better the action or the storyline and promo's?

The thing is though a long technical match is good as long as you have two people good at that, and a short brawl is good as long as you have people good at that, and that's what the WWE writers and a lot of Smarks don't realize. There is no set style for Pro Wrestling, there is though for real wrestling but we're not talking about that, Pro Wrestling is all about entertainment, and so pro wrestling really is sports entertainment and they can't be seperated.

[Innovator]

Personally, I prefer professional wrestling, such as ECW and ROH.

WWE seems to be getting back to pro wrestling a bit, but then we have to sit through crap like Kane/Lita.

[BungeeWithNoCord]

I recently watched a tape of RAW, the one with the infamous "Beer Bath", which was 6 days before WrestleMania XV. I saw it and truly realized just how damn different the WWE, and the business as whole aswell is today. No match had to be longer than say 6 minutes. While the segments took 20 minutes (the beer bath took around 30-40 minutes!) Only a few matches had a winner. I know this is also because it was the final build-up to WrestleMania XV, but you could still tell a huge difference in the booking, and the overall attitude of the show.

It really sparked the great debate in my head, Sports Entertainment or Pro Wrestling? I would make a poll, but I think that this is much broader that just "A or B?" so please explain why you enjoy one over the other, or if you like a equal balance, etc.


So here is my answer to the great debate:

I personally perfer pro wrestling over sports entertainment. Especially since I became a "smark" and focused on the matches instead of the angles. I fell in love with what went on in the ring. I have become a fan of technical wrestling especially. While I can enjoy a ladder match or the spot-fests. I would rather watch Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle in an ironman match.

I have grown to appreciate what I used to switch from Nitro to RAW from. I also saw a tape of WCW Nitro: Spring Breakout 1999. I fast-forwarded through most of it, until it came to a really good PSCHOLOGICAL match. Chris Benoit/Dean Malenko v. Raven (and later-on in the match) Perry Saturn. It was a complete beatdown by Malenko/Benoit on Raven.

Which brings me to another point of Pro Wrestling over Sports Entertainement. Ring Psychology. It is hard to find a wrestler with great ring psychology. Raven and Jake The Snake may not have been Bret Harts (who also had a great ring psychology) but during that 4Horsemen/Raven match. I almost forgot I was in 2004. I got sucked into the story they were telling. I wanted to see what would happen on Thunder. Today, people rely on angles and storylines to tell the story instead of where it should be told... the ring. Now, I know that angles and stuff are a necessity (Pro wrestling does not mean NO ANGLES WHATSOEVER, to me atleast), but they can't be the WHOLE story, or even MAJORITY of the story. This is why I am not a fan of deathmatches, because the weapons ARE THE STORY instead of a PART OF THE STORY. Pro Wrestling is a lost art in the world of Vince McMahon. Yes, the WWE and the indistry as a whole are going back to Pro Wrestling (ROH being a pime example, which I've never seen BTW) it is still angle-dependent to get the strory across. So I plead all of you to pull out those old tapes, or the recent DVD's that have come out, and fall in love with the lost art that is Professional Wrestling.


you spelt industry wrong... ;) i go with prowrestling

[James Steele]

*bump* ~postwhore~

Why do replied to threads I make result in a 2:1 ratio of ignorant ass(Bungee/Molly) to good posters (Innovator)

[The CyNick]

I dont think straight up "wrestling" will ever draw on TV or at live events. For most people, that stuff is boring. Thats why things like ROH cant draw more than a few hundred fans, and why Kurt Angle vs Brock Lesnar in an Iron Man Match wasn't the highest rated wrestling match in modern history.

The most important thing in wrestling/sports entertainment is creating characters that people care about. Without that, you have nothing.

In order to sell a match, you need something more than wrestler A wants to fight wrestler B. They need an issue, and a compelling story to get them in the ring. However, if you try to get too cute, you can overlook the fact that at the end of the day there has to be a match that makes people feel satisfied, if that doesn't happen, you're dead.

I also believe that if history has shown us anything its that the casual fan doesn't want to see the really technical guys on top. The guys that seem to get over the best are the guys who dumb down "wrestling" to basically kicks, punches and a couple of distinctive moves. Guys like Rock, Austin and Hogan all had very entertaining matches, but they would never be rated above guys like Flair, Benoit and Bret Hart in the ring. Yet all of the latter guys drew significantly less money as top guys. So I think when they try to focus on great "wrestling" at the top of the card, while its very appealing to the hardcore fan, I think it turns off the average fan. I think thats a big problem right now. Sure HHH and HBK will have a great match night in and night out, but that doesn't get people excited.

[GODSON]

I dont think straight up "wrestling" will ever draw on TV or at live events. For most people, that stuff is boring. Thats why things like ROH cant draw more than a few hundred fans, and why Kurt Angle vs Brock Lesnar in an Iron Man Match wasn't the highest rated wrestling match in modern history.

The most important thing in wrestling/sports entertainment is creating characters that people care about. Without that, you have nothing.

In order to sell a match, you need something more than wrestler A wants to fight wrestler B. They need an issue, and a compelling story to get them in the ring. However, if you try to get too cute, you can overlook the fact that at the end of the day there has to be a match that makes people feel satisfied, if that doesn't happen, you're dead.

I also believe that if history has shown us anything its that the casual fan doesn't want to see the really technical guys on top. The guys that seem to get over the best are the guys who dumb down "wrestling" to basically kicks, punches and a couple of distinctive moves. Guys like Rock, Austin and Hogan all had very entertaining matches, but they would never be rated above guys like Flair, Benoit and Bret Hart in the ring. Yet all of the latter guys drew significantly less money as top guys. So I think when they try to focus on great "wrestling" at the top of the card, while its very appealing to the hardcore fan, I think it turns off the average fan. I think thats a big problem right now. Sure HHH and HBK will have a great match night in and night out, but that doesn't get people excited.

DING DING DING, YOU SAID IT PERFECT

I would rather watch a entertaining character who can't wrestle(Snitsky) than a great wrestler who is boring(Akio).

I think you can have a mixture. Just look at Austin and Hart. THey manage to tell a story in and out the ring.

To the guy who said he prefer real wrestling, ROH and ECW. No offense but ECW is sports entertainment with every match being hardcore or a gimmick.

[James Steele]

I wish I was able to understand that second sentence Godson...

Gene Snitsky is entertaining yes, but not quite how I think they want him to be.

[123 kid]

I personally like a mix of both. Obviously preferring professional wrestling, but professional wrestling alone does not draw. Without the sports entertainment side of things, I don't think professional wrestling would be where it is today.

[BungeeWithNoCord]

*bump* ~postwhore~

Why do replied to threads I make result in a 2:1 ratio of ignorant ass(Bungee/Molly) to good posters (Innovator)

:'(

[Innovator]

JamesSteele, if you go to Raven's website www.theraveneffect.com and read his commentaries, he talks about ring psychology in one and he really hits home with it. He also talked about selling, and how when people sell they eventually get cheered since the audience will grow to care about them.

[James Steele]

Thanks, I didn't even know he had a website.

[BigDaddyCool]

I like sports entertainment. I like pro wrestling too, but I would rather see a top notch sport entertainer because they can do what any wrestler can, and then some. Don't get me wrong, I love me an Angle or Jericho match (Beniot can bite my ass), but not just because the are stellar in the ring. It is because they are stellar out of the ring too. They have personalities, and they make you care about them. Any asshole can wrestle, just look at Chris "Sheep Fucker" Sabin or A.J. "Fa</>ggot" Styles. But they can't hold a candle to the wrestling abilities of Angle, and they couldn't cut a promo half of what Angle can. Sports Entertainment > Pro-Wrestling

Mind you, I hate those crappy segements that have no wrestling, no build up to wrestling, or just chicks getting in a cat fight, those are boring.

[Funky Fly]

I am a lover of pro wrestling. I am perfectly capable of wantching 2 hours on matches week in and week out, but that's not what draws, and that's not what even I want to see. I want to see the total package (and the WWE delivers it), but I want to see it done right.

People don't go to live events to see talking. People don't go to live events to see wrestling. People go to live events to see wrestling that leads to talking that leads to wrestling. Create some drama, build it up and then watch it explode with a stellar match (or series of matches). That is wrestling at its finest. The problem with the WWE today is that they do it with the elements of that simple formula out of proportion to each other. How many times must there be brief scuffles, main event tag matches, promos and interviews just for one match? How come certain wrestlers seem to have the same match over and over and over again with out mixing in some fresh faces? How come champions roll over and die after losing their title? How come wrestlers just accept being injected into the midcard instead of demanding a second title shot? How many times must we see HHH vs HBK? How come Randy Orton is the only one besides HHH who bothers to get a rematch after losing the title? How come JBL (who is legitimately hated) has held the title for so long? How come the only way to advance a story these days is via screwjob? There is too much drama and not enough payoff in today's WWE. It's all out of proportion, but it's still better than no wrestling or no story.

[Gouda]

As said, sports entertainment draws in more money and ratings than pro wrestling ever will.

Myself, I would like to see a mix of both, with pro wrestling highlighted more than sports entertainment. You reserve the "personal issues" and stuff for the major players and special occassions.

[The Highlander]

Pro Wrestling has greats such as Lou Theiz, Frank Gotch, Bruno Sammartino, Buddy Rogers, Dory Funk Jr., Terry Funk, Stu Hart, Killer Kowalski, Billy Graham, Vern Gagne, the Von Erichs, Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat, Andre the Giant, Ric Flair, and Bret Hart giving everything they have in the ring, night after night, in matches which will live on in history.

Sports Entertainment has about a half hour of throw-away matches and an hour and a half of Triple H talking about how great he is.

Professional Wrestling has Ric Flair, A kiss stealing, wheeling dealing, jet flying, limosine riding, son of a gun.

Sports Entertainment has Ric Flair, an ass kissing, Time Wasting, Same lame moves using, Wish he was half the legend Bret Hart is, son of a bitch.

Professional Wrestling has a guy on top who busted ass and earned it.

Sports Entertainment has a guy on top because he poked ass and married it.

Professional Wrestling didn't need to resort to lame gimmicks to sell tickets.

Sports Entertainment has Stacy Keibler.

Professional wrestling rewards people who put butts in seats.

Sports Entertainment rewards people who put shirts on backs.

Professional wrestling tells a story thoughout a match, like a book.

Sports Entertainment uses a series of moves designed to get people thinking someone's gonna die.

Professional Wrestling actually used submission holds to win a match.

Sports Entertainment uses submission holds as a cheap way to get a face over.

The Clencher:
Professional Wrestling has Savage-Steamboat

Sports Entertainment has Kane-Lita

Professional Wrestling > Sports (lack of) Entertainment

[Molly fan 25]

Pro Wrestling has greats such as Lou Theiz, Frank Gotch, Bruno Sammartino, Buddy Rogers, Dory Funk Jr., Terry Funk, Stu Hart, Killer Kowalski, Billy Graham, Vern Gagne, the Von Erichs, Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat, Andre the Giant, Ric Flair, and Bret Hart giving everything they have in the ring, night after night, in matches which will live on in history.

Sports Entertainment has about a half hour of throw-away matches and an hour and a half of Triple H talking about how great he is.

Professional Wrestling has Ric Flair, A kiss stealing, wheeling dealing, jet flying, limosine riding, son of a gun.

Sports Entertainment has Ric Flair, an ass kissing, Time Wasting, Same lame moves using, Wish he was half the legend Bret Hart is, son of a bitch.

Professional Wrestling has a guy on top who busted ass and earned it.

Sports Entertainment has a guy on top because he poked ass and married it.

Professional Wrestling didn't need to resort to lame gimmicks to sell tickets.

Sports Entertainment has Stacy Keibler.

Professional wrestling rewards people who put butts in seats.

Sports Entertainment rewards people who put shirts on backs.

Professional wrestling tells a story thoughout a match, like a book.

Sports Entertainment uses a series of moves designed to get people thinking someone's gonna die.

Professional Wrestling actually used submission holds to win a match.

Sports Entertainment uses submission holds as a cheap way to get a face over.

The Clencher:
Professional Wrestling has Savage-Steamboat

Sports Entertainment has Kane-Lita

Professional Wrestling > Sports (lack of) Entertainment
We need have the deciding argument, a guy who succesfully can't tell the difference between the two. If you want to watch pro wrestling don't watch anything from after the mid-70's because after that it was a lot of entertainment, watch the stuff from the 50's and see real pro wrestling don't say Savage and Steamboat are real pro wrestlers because they were always about the show as much as about the wrestling.

[Aussie Skier]

sports entertainment is the perfect male drama series.
action, drama, T&A.

I doubt many people would enjoy watching all wrestling and no drama.
I watched all the PPV's, in a row, over summer, from 2000 RR until about Rock VS Brock at summerslam. That was alot of wrestling...but it certainly was not just the wrestling I was watching.

I was listening to the crowd, i was watching the drama, I was watching the suspense.

I think it is impossible to decipher between the two, essentially, most of us all want the same, hybrid product

[BigDaddyCool]

The Clencher:
Professional Wrestling has Savage-Steamboat

Sports Entertainment has Kane-Lita

Professional Wrestling > Sports (lack of) Entertainment

Sports Entertainment has Austin-Rock, Hogan-Savage, Micheals-Razor Ramon, Mankind-Undertaker, and the TLC.

Pro-wrestling hasn't existed since 1900.

[Favre4Ever]

I think what turned me into a hardcore wrestling fan was when Triple H and Stephanie formed the McMahon-Helmsly faction. I didn't have the internet back then, but I can remember my world being turned upside-down when Stephanie turned on Vince and threw Triple H the sledgehammer. After that, I had to watch every episode Mondays and Thursdays to find out what would happen.

Nowadays, I don't really mind missing a couple RAW's and Smackdown's every month, because know that nothing spectacular usually happens. At the end of the episode either A:Heel will beat up and disgrace the Face, or B:It will appear that the Heels are getting the best of the Face, but then un-expected Face re-inforcements will save the day!!!

Pretty much, I liked the old sports-entertainment as opposed to the new. The brand-Split is getting me more interested in pro-wrestling, but because the WWE won't stop using the exact same formula over and over again, i don't feel compelled to watch anymore. Personally I think the brand split had a lot to do with this.

[CosaNostra]

George Hackenschmidt VS Franck Gotch............that was pro wrestling was it not?

[The Naitch]

I love the Kevin Nash Career Highlight animation thing in your sig. Keep up the good work :y:

[The Highlander]

don't say Savage and Steamboat are real pro wrestlers because they were always about the show as much as about the wrestling.

True, but at Wrestlemania III, their match was a classic professional wrestling match, not a long list of pointless high-spots used to get a cheap pop. It's what I like about Benoit. He's a Professional Wrestler. Like Bret Hart, he can have a good match with anyone. Test, Taker, Hunter, Pig Slow, anyone.

"Austin-Rock, Hogan-Savage, Micheals-Razor Ramon, Mankind-Undertaker"
Most of these matches were innovative at their time, but I've gotten tired of Ladder matches and gimmicky hardcore-type matches. And Austin sucks.

[BigDaddyCool]

"Austin-Rock, Hogan-Savage, Micheals-Razor Ramon, Mankind-Undertaker"
Most of these matches were innovative at their time, but I've gotten tired of Ladder matches and gimmicky hardcore-type matches. And Austin sucks.

Oh, since now the matches are old, and Austin sucks, my point isn't valid. you are retarded.

[Loose Cannon]

CyNick basically nailed it....AGAIN. ;) I asked this same question a long while ago and it was in poll form. It was basically split down the middle between us here. I would rather watch shorter matches on RAW, where you can make a bunch of stars on a show, then to watch 20 minute matches, where you can't get people over.

That's why the Attitude Era worked. They had short matches and they make guys like the Outlaws, Venis, Godfather, Crash Holly. Fans today want quick matches that get to the point. Nobody wants to sit through 10 minutes of headlocks and sleeper holds. I know I couldn't watch a wrestling program without the crazy segments, the backstage interviews, the run-ins. It would just be boring to me.