ring physchology

[Aussie Skier]

what exactly is it?

[Drakul]

Isn't it like making things look painful and everything?

[Aussie Skier]

Isn't it like making things look painful and everything?

i have a far idea its to do with that.
making the match look believable and all?

[CosaNostra]

http://www.realitynewsonline.com/cgi-bin/ae.pl?mode=1&article=article1236.art&page=1

Its a start.

[BigDaddyCool]

Ring Psychology is what pro-wrestling is all about. It has to do with the character the wrestler plays, how the match plays out, keeping that aura of suspended disbelief, everything really.

[Aussie Skier]

so its being able to tell the story.
that makes sense.

i mean, sometimes you see some guys who are working on a guy's leg all match, then goes up on the turnbuckle to a big splash or something...and i always think...whats the point!!! (unless its a finisher)

[Dave Youell]

Ok here's an example of bad psychology:

If say for example Chris Benoit was working on a guys leg through out the match, with holds and striking moves, almost to the point when the other guy couldn't walk, and then finishes him off with a crossface, that wouldn't make good ring psychology as his arms and neck (where the move would do the most damage) would still be ok. Also if the other guy who's getting worked on, did a nip up or started doing irish whips after his leg had been worked on it wouldn't make sense.

Other things like working up to the big moves, i've seen too many feds with inexperinced workers not building up to a big move to pop the crowd. Take a look at most WWE matches, they don't really do any big bumps until towards the end of the matches, if you start off your match with a powerbomb it's going to be difficult to get the crowd to care about a similar finish at the end of the match (Ian, don't use the bam bam/Taz defense against me)

There's also the psychology with minds games and stuff that Raven, Jake and Pillman do, but i don't think we are talking about that

Psychology IMO doesn't mean one thing, it's the whole aspect of making it all authentic and above all make sense logically

[Dave Youell]

For the record Benoit wouldn't do that cos he's great, but it's an example i thought up

[BigDaddyCool]

so its being able to tell the story.
that makes sense.

i mean, sometimes you see some guys who are working on a guy's leg all match, then goes up on the turnbuckle to a big splash or something...and i always think...whats the point!!! (unless its a finisher)

Yeah, a prime example of good ring psychology is Rhyno. If you watch a Rhyno singles match, all he does it work the mid-section of a dudes body, then bam, gores the Buh-Jesus out of them. Also, Rhyno is nothing but intenence. If you ever here a promo out of him, it is mostly grunting and threatening to rip someones head off and gore them. He has a very basic, but very sound cohesive psychology about him.

Another example is HHH. He is all about keeping the world title around his waste, and will go to any means. He has a huge arsnal to do it. If he can't beat you legite, Evolution comes to his aid. And if that doesn't work, he always has his sledge hammer.

Ring Psychology can be seen in a sinlge match, or played out in an angle or entire gimmick.

[BigDaddyCool]

Ok here's an example of bad psychology:

If say for example Chris Benoit was working on a guys leg through out the match, with holds and striking moves, almost to the point when the other guy couldn't walk, and then finishes him off with a crossface, that wouldn't make good ring psychology as his arms and neck (where the move would do the most damage) would still be ok. Also if the other guy who's getting worked on, did a nip up or started doing irish whips after his leg had been worked on it wouldn't make sense.

Other things like working up to the big moves, i've seen too many feds with inexperinced workers not building up to a big move to pop the crowd. Take a look at most WWE matches, they don't really do any big bumps until towards the end of the matches, if you start off your match with a powerbomb it's going to be difficult to get the crowd to care about a similar finish at the end of the match (Ian, don't use the bam bam/Taz defense against me)

There's also the psychology with minds games and stuff that Raven, Jake and Pillman do, but i don't think we are talking about that

Psychology IMO doesn't mean one thing, it's the whole aspect of making it all authentic and above all make sense logically

For the record Benoit wouldn't do that cos he's great, but it's an example i thought up

Yeah, in that case Beniot would go for the Sharpshooter because it works the legs and lower back. While Beniot is the worst champion ever, he employs a few finishers to keep a good story in a match. You can tell he either will target the legs, or the upper body (neck and arms) during a match, and will use one of those submissions to get the job done.

[BigDaddyCool]

BTW, I wrote a paper on this subject for my sophomore psych class in college, I got an A.

[Innovator]

I thought of Bam Bam/Taz the minute you said that Dave.

Ring psychology, in my mind, separates average wrestlers and legendary superstars. Raven talks about psychology in one of his commentaries on his website, saying how a lot of guys just try to get all of their offense in and stop selling after a point.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ok here's an example of bad psychology:

If say for example Chris Benoit was working on a guys leg through out the match, with holds and striking moves, almost to the point when the other guy couldn't walk, and then finishes him off with a crossface, that wouldn't make good ring psychology as his arms and neck (where the move would do the most damage) would still be ok. Also if the other guy who's getting worked on, did a nip up or started doing irish whips after his leg had been worked on it wouldn't make sense.

Other things like working up to the big moves, i've seen too many feds with inexperinced workers not building up to a big move to pop the crowd. Take a look at most WWE matches, they don't really do any big bumps until towards the end of the matches, if you start off your match with a powerbomb it's going to be difficult to get the crowd to care about a similar finish at the end of the match (Ian, don't use the bam bam/Taz defense against me)

There's also the psychology with minds games and stuff that Raven, Jake and Pillman do, but i don't think we are talking about that

Psychology IMO doesn't mean one thing, it's the whole aspect of making it all authentic and above all make sense logically

I agree with everything you just said, but I do have one question. Now if Benoit worked over the opponent's legs during a match, then slapped on the Crippler Crossface, couldn't it also be called good psychology? If the guy is getting his legs pounded, the legless wrestler begins to think "Sharpshooter!" and begins to get ready for the sharpshooter to be setup by Benoit's offense. Then bam, in a second he's down due to the speed of the Crossface, and without his legs to push him towards the ropes, he would eventuially either give in to the pain, or just because Benoit one-upped him and out of respect in this checkmate situation?

Or is it just stupid to try and lure a guy into false security (of knowledge of what's going on anyway, if he can stop it is another question), as it would be wasted work theoretically? This type of psychology would be more of a mental-style crossbred with the physical-style. Benoti doesn't seem to use much mental psychology in his matches, other than what comes with his wear and tear and the fact he's an 18 year veteran who has one heavyweight championships. You have experience in wrestlnig, so I think it would be fair to ask you if this woul dbe psychology, or just an imaginary idea that would look ridiculous.

Anyway, I like to think of ring psychology as the mental capaciy behind actions we see in wrestling. This probably spells out more of the greater minds in wrestling, as well as the greater werstlers. Benoit & Rhyno use the physical-style, which wears down the opponent, and makes it almost impossible for them to work. While Benoit usually wok sover the shoulder for his #1 move, The Crippler Crossface, Rhyno works over the mid-section, and just once I'd like to see a wrestler sell The Gore by sreaming in the ring when they've "awoken" from the impact of the move, due to "broken ribs". I haven't had a broken rib before, but I've heard they are painful, and themy hurt to breathe. If Rhyno breaks a rib early in the match (storyline-wise) the match would basically be in his bag. There is a good mental psychology behind what Rhyno does in the ring.

Triple H & Eddie Guerrero use a mental-style in their matches. Eddie Guerrero "lies, cheats & steals" which gets under the opponent's skin, while Triple H basically has "plan A, plan B, plan C...right down to plan ZZZ#3". Triple employs thepsychology in his macthes that if he can't win the match via clean submission or pinfall, he'll manipulate the match to basically be a handicap one, so he effectively can't lose. This is why he's so dominant, and why the place will blow off the roof when he loses the championship. The whole thnig with Triple H's psychology, is that he is depending on the physical presence of Ric Flair & Batista. If they turn face, or get injured, not only will Triple H's plans after "A" be destroyed, but so will his entire psychological stance. Which is what I'm hoping to see for a shakeup of RAW.

[Corkscrewed]

agree with everything you just said, but I do have one question. Now if Benoit worked over the opponent's legs during a match, then slapped on the Crippler Crossface, couldn't it also be called good psychology? If the guy is getting his legs pounded, the legless wrestler begins to think "Sharpshooter!" and begins to get ready for the sharpshooter to be setup by Benoit's offense. Then bam, in a second he's down due to the speed of the Crossface, and without his legs to push him towards the ropes, he would eventuially either give in to the pain, or just because Benoit one-upped him and out of respect in this checkmate situation?
That's going a bit too far... this isn't a guessing game like, say pitching. The not being able to get to the ropes due to no leg strength makes some sense, but there are other ways to counter a crossface. For example, even with bum legs, you could conceivably flip Benoit onto his back into a pinning combo (I wonder why people don't do that more often) just to break the hold.

While going for the crossface after working the lower body isn't horrid ring psychology, it's not the best choice by a long shot. That's all.

Really, ring psychology is very logical. But the problem is that many wrestlers want to look like a star and don't sell. Others are all flash and thus hit two powerbombs followed by a DVD followed by brainbuster DDT, only to let the other guy kick out, then hit a moonsault, followed by a Rock Bottom, followed by a spike piledriver or something. It's kinda stupid. That would just be a spotfest, literally.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That's going a bit too far... this isn't a guessing game like, say pitching. The not being able to get to the ropes due to no leg strength makes some sense, but there are other ways to counter a crossface. For example, even with bum legs, you could conceivably flip Benoit onto his back into a pinning combo (I wonder why people don't do that more often) just to break the hold.

While going for the crossface after working the lower body isn't horrid ring psychology, it's not the best choice by a long shot. That's all.

Really, ring psychology is very logical. But the problem is that many wrestlers want to look like a star and don't sell. Others are all flash and thus hit two powerbombs followed by a DVD followed by brainbuster DDT, only to let the other guy kick out, then hit a moonsault, followed by a Rock Bottom, followed by a spike piledriver or something. It's kinda stupid. That would just be a spotfest, literally.

Yeah, I get what you mean. Benoit really couldn't do that Crippelr Crossface scenario more than once, because then it would just get predictable. Maybe as a one time thing, but that would be shifty, because it is a risk (something Eddie Guerrero would do, but not Benoit).

I think cruiserweight wrestling features little to zero psychology. Guys throw their weight around, but I would much more prefer it if a guy like Funaki through his weight into an opponent's leg, rather than just taking him down with it. Cruiserweight wrestling could be telling more of a story than it is.

BTW, is it just me, or does Jericho not use much psychology in his matches (as a face anyway). It seems every one of his matches is him getting dominated, then he follows through with moves that don't do accumalating damage to a body part. Y2J could do a Lionsault to the back occasionally, and maybe contorl a match or two and finish with an extremely painful Walls of Jericho hold that could make people in attendence cringe. The only thing I can see with Chris Jericho's moveset, is how all the moves one after the other to different body parts hurt the opponent all over, make them less suspecting for the next attack, and eventually make them so worn down, they can't kick out of the Lionsault or escape the Walls of Jericho.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, I get what you mean. Benoit really couldn't do that Crippelr Crossface scenario more than once, because then it would just get predictable. Maybe as a one time thing, but that would be shifty, because it is a risk (something Eddie Guerrero would do, but not Benoit).

I think cruiserweight wrestling features little to zero psychology. Guys throw their weight around, but I would much more prefer it if a guy like Funaki through his weight into an opponent's leg, rather than just taking him down with it. Cruiserweight wrestling could be telling more of a story than it is.

BTW, is it just me, or does Jericho not use much psychology in his matches (as a face anyway). It seems every one of his matches is him getting dominated, then he follows through with moves that don't do accumalating damage to a body part. Y2J could do a Lionsault to the back occasionally, and maybe contorl a match or two and finish with an extremely painful Walls of Jericho hold that could make people in attendence cringe. The only thing I can see with Chris Jericho's moveset, is how all the moves one after the other to different body parts hurt the opponent all over, make them less suspecting for the next attack, and eventually make them so worn down, they can't kick out of the Lionsault or escape the Walls of Jericho.

Jericho runs a different game than Beniot, and Jericho knows how to tell a story. He isn't methodical, Jericho is wrestles a match where he just keeps hitting them from all angle and rarely targets one body part. And Jericho uselly fights bigger guys, so he uses his speed to. So Jericho against say Batista, would have Jericho jumping all over the ring, running circles around Batista, trying to wear the big man down. Then bomb, Lionsualt, and pin.

Either that, or I'm defending a spotfest wrestler.

[tucsonspeed6]

Ring psychology isn't always about submission moves. I agree with BDC. Jericho just tells a different story.

[Funky Fly]

Yeah, I get what you mean. Benoit really couldn't do that Crippelr Crossface scenario more than once, because then it would just get predictable. Maybe as a one time thing, but that would be shifty, because it is a risk (something Eddie Guerrero would do, but not Benoit).

I think cruiserweight wrestling features little to zero psychology. Guys throw their weight around, but I would much more prefer it if a guy like Funaki through his weight into an opponent's leg, rather than just taking him down with it. Cruiserweight wrestling could be telling more of a story than it is.

BTW, is it just me, or does Jericho not use much psychology in his matches (as a face anyway). It seems every one of his matches is him getting dominated, then he follows through with moves that don't do accumalating damage to a body part. Y2J could do a Lionsault to the back occasionally, and maybe contorl a match or two and finish with an extremely painful Walls of Jericho hold that could make people in attendence cringe. The only thing I can see with Chris Jericho's moveset, is how all the moves one after the other to different body parts hurt the opponent all over, make them less suspecting for the next attack, and eventually make them so worn down, they can't kick out of the Lionsault or escape the Walls of Jericho.

You want story in a cruiserweight match? Watch Funaki's Japanese matches. Watch any Ultimo Dragon match. Watch any of Dean Malenko's WCW matches. Hell, just about any WCW cruiserweight matches involving less than 3 people.

[BigDaddyCool]

Ring psychology isn't always about submission moves. I agree with BDC. Jericho just tells a different story.

This is correct, submissions are just one of the easiest ways to point it out. Or like I did with Rhyno, he always builds towards the gore.

Now Austin...there was another form of Psychology. The Stunner was built up as a finisher of all finishers. It took mere seconds to apply, and no one could kick out of it, and it could come out of almost anywhere. So the entire match Austin was just toying with his oppenent much like a cat with a wounded mouse. Austin did nothing more than take out his unending aggeression on them until he was statified, the bang, stunner. Austin never went in to a match trying to figure out how to beat them, or what he needs to do to win, he had that covered with the Stunner. Austin always went into his matches to kick some ass and raise some hell, you can see that in all his matches. You can even see that in his ECW matches, he never cared about winning, because he was going too, he just wanted to beat people up.

Also, you'll notice in his matches so often he just gets into brawling. Never does he start off with a tie up, not he goes and punches the other dude. Lou Thez press into punching. Backs a guy into a corner and starts punching and kicked. Even the stunner is barely a wrestling move, it is a boot the gut, then stunner.

[BigDaddyCool]

As above, the same can be said about Brock Lesnar when he first started. He no sold, then just destroyed people with brain rattling move after brain rattling move. He made people just give up and accept the pin instead of getting another 3 powerbombs and what not.

[Mr. Nerfect]

You want story in a cruiserweight match? Watch Funaki's Japanese matches. Watch any Ultimo Dragon match. Watch any of Dean Malenko's WCW matches. Hell, just about any WCW cruiserweight matches involving less than 3 people.

Sorry, I didn't word myself correctly. I meant WWE cruiserwieight matches. Anything from Japan or WCW had psychology, but lately cruiserwieghts in the WWE have just be flip & kick matches. I hope there is a change in that.

[Aussie Skier]

BTW, is it just me, or does Jericho not use much psychology in his matches (as a face anyway). It seems every one of his matches is him getting dominated, then he follows through with moves that don't do accumalating damage to a body part. Y2J could do a Lionsault to the back occasionally, and maybe contorl a match or two and finish with an extremely painful Walls of Jericho hold that could make people in attendence cringe. The only thing I can see with Chris Jericho's moveset, is how all the moves one after the other to different body parts hurt the opponent all over, make them less suspecting for the next attack, and eventually make them so worn down, they can't kick out of the Lionsault or escape the Walls of Jericho.

Intersting you mention that. i was reading jake the snake roberts web site and he is very critical of chris Jericho. in fact, i believe he called him hopeless!
could be because of that.

i mean, with jericho, its all about:
Running Enzuguri,
drop kick from the middle rope to someone on the apron,
the thing a bit like a 619
lionsault
walls of jericho

[Aussie Skier]

Sorry, I didn't word myself correctly. I meant WWE cruiserwieight matches. Anything from Japan or WCW had psychology, but lately cruiserwieghts in the WWE have just be flip & kick matches. I hope there is a change in that.

maybe thats why vince wants to get rid of them?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Intersting you mention that. i was reading jake the snake roberts web site and he is very critical of chris Jericho. in fact, i believe he called him hopeless!
could be because of that.

i mean, with jericho, its all about:
Running Enzuguri,
drop kick from the middle rope to someone on the apron,
the thing a bit like a 619
lionsault
walls of jericho

Really? That's fairly interesting, since a lot of people give Jake "the Snake" Roberts a lot of props when it coems ot ring psychology. Jericho does sort of rub off as the wreckless wrestler that hits moves form whichever direction he can. It gives him a psycholgical character, but it doesn't really do much for his ring style, which is basically a technically able cruiserweight. I'm not trying to take away form Jericho here, but maybe he is a bit overrated when it comes to some areas of the business?

[Dave Youell]

You want story in a cruiserweight match? Watch Funaki's Japanese matches. Watch any Ultimo Dragon match. Watch any of Dean Malenko's WCW matches. Hell, just about any WCW cruiserweight matches involving less than 3 people.
OK Funky Breath, i know that Ultimo is a delicate subject *slips*

Seriously though Cruiserweights do have a an element of physchology to them, most decent cuiserweight do still build up to the big lucha moves, I'll use rey as an example. The normal scenerio for a Rey match would be getting overpower by the other guy with a few lock ups, then a bit of a chasing game when Rey runs away from them, then he's hit a few sweet arm drag counters. Get beaten down for ages, then hit a 'rana out of no where and build up a comeback and finished with a 619/westcoast pop.

Even though he is a lucha he doesn't flip flop about though out the entire match, Yes in mexico they would, but Mexico IMO isn't well known for it's ring physchology.

My fav cruiserweight is still Jamie Knoble though, that guy was a total package in the Cruiserweight division

[Corkscrewed]

maybe thats why vince wants to get rid of them?
Well, if he'd actually GIVE them the chance to shine instead of protecting the big guys, you'd see a lot more entertaining cruiserweight matches.

[Dave Youell]

Well, if he'd actually GIVE them the chance to shine instead of protecting the big guys, you'd see a lot more entertaining cruiserweight matches.
*prays that Heymans booking will make that happen*

[SuperSlim]

well all I can say is that thanks to this thread I remembered that i had a paper due yesterday afternoon in my Psychology class.

but on about the topic. Differen't wrestlers = different psychology. One of the elements that is missing in a lot of matches today cause what is really being focused on are the big moves. Or as stated somewhere up there promos. Once the main focus are no longer promos but the actual happenings in the ring then you can expect things to really pick up.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Jamie Noble was a great cruiserweight when it came to technical and psychological wrestling. And yes, there really is no boudnary on what ring psychology is, but I would love to see a match between, let's say Nunzio & Rey Mysterio in a #1 Contender's match, and I'd love to see them get about 20 minutes to work a match, where Nunzio flies over the top rope and throws all his weight into Rey Mysterio's leg (taking out all his big moves). This, IMO, would make the cruiserwiehgt division seem more like a smaller division of the WWE Championship division.

[Aussie Skier]

Jamie Noble was a great cruiserweight when it came to technical and psychological wrestling. And yes, there really is no boudnary on what ring psychology is, but I would love to see a match between, let's say Nunzio & Rey Mysterio in a #1 Contender's match, and I'd love to see them get about 20 minutes to work a match, where Nunzio flies over the top rope and throws all his weight into Rey Mysterio's leg (taking out all his big moves). This, IMO, would make the cruiserwiehgt division seem more like a smaller division of the WWE Championship division.

i swear, if noble had been over six foot, he would have been in the upper midcards

[Mr. Nerfect]

i swear, if noble had been over six foot, he would have been in the upper midcards

I agree. He reminds me a lot of Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit's wrestling "love child" so to speak. He can fly, he can wrestle, he can brawl, he can focus on a body part, he can use submission moves, he can use decent power moves (for his size), he's got he look of a guy who you can love to hate, or love to love and he's got above average mic skills.

Releasing Noble may have beena mistake, since he could really give the X-Division scene on TNA another boost.

[SuperSlim]

I'm still waitin for Noble to show up on TNA... Hurry up and come back to TV Noble!

[Innovator]

One of the things Raven points out that a lot of young wrestlers do high flying stuff to impress the audience. Like AJ Styles, for example, used to do a plancha over the top rope when the opponent went to the outside. Nowadays, when an opponent does that 3 times, then he does it. That example tells a story to the fans, of the heel trying to take a break and AJ coming after him.

[Dave Youell]

I'm still waitin for Noble to show up on TNA... Hurry up and come back to TV Noble!
He's signed a 6 months contract with New Japan i think and is currently over there touring, and I say good on him. He doesn't need TNA and to be honest even though i'm 6 months behind you guys in the US TNA is really really annoying me

[The Naitch]

Finger poke of doom

[Corkscrewed]

^ Tells the story of how you're never ever going to even have a chance to crack the barrier of the glass ceiling.