DISCUSSION - Can Dave Batista "make it" as a MAIN-EVENT face? (Goldberg/Lesnar)

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION - Can Dave Batista "make it" as a MAIN-EVENT face? (Goldberg/Lesnar)

Since this has become a popular topic of late, I'll pop the question: Can Batista "make it" as a main-event face?


Some Postives I see:

1) Batista has NOT had a meteroic push in the WWE (like Goldberg did in WCW, and Lesnar did in the WWE). Instead, he has been built up SLOWLY, while still looking "credible" enough due to him dominating matches at times, and still looking very tough. If Batista wins the championship, there is a MUCH LESS risk of him experiencing a METEORIC drop in popularity, (Goldberg), motivation (Lesnar/Goldberg), and stature (Kane).

We saw what happened with Goldberg. Since Goldberg squashed all his opponents during the early stages of his career, the fans grew accustomed to this. Anything short of a squash, was perceived to be a "disappointment" (which is why Goldberg's tenure in the WWE was a failure......since the WWE doesn't like the idea of having so many "no-named" guys that can just be "squashed").

Batista will never have that problem with the fans. There's more "dimension" to his character (relative to Goldberg's). If he doesn't squash his opponent......no big deal.


2) The look. Batista has "the look" of a credible main-eventer. Since Batista "resembles" the likes of Lesnar and Goldberg (based on the way their bodies look), I hink that will help Batista quite a bit.

3) Decent in-ring talent. Batista won't be confused with Dean Malenko anytime soon, but he's not putz either. For a "big man", Batista is a very capable worker IMO.

4) (This may be the most important point): Batista has never been beaten by Triple H. The two have never crossed paths. If Triple H or the WWE EVER had a chance to "pass the torch" to someone, then Batista could be that man.



Where the WWE can "fuck it up" for Batista

Since the WWE are rather good at screwing things up :P, I'll give my analysis on how this can be achieved:


1) Make Batista to be "sympathetic" and "tame": This is what the WWE did with Kane back in 1999. For whatever reason, the WWE loves to make big men look "vulnerable" upon turning face (which absolutely destroys their "monster" image). Big Show is another guy who was victim to this (although it wasn't nearly as severe as Kane's).

Even when Goldberg came to the WWE, they made him cut a "funny" promo with Goldust backstage. :nono:


Is adding depth to a character often a good thing? Yes. Can attempting to add "depth" to a character be detrimental at certain times? YES.


Emotional and vulnerable "big men" = :n: :n: *fart* :n: *piss*


If the WWE make Batista look like a "whipped dog" within the next few weeks (one that submissively takes orders from Triple H..............in an attempt on the WWE's part to get the fans to feel sorry for Batista), then Batista's "turn" will flop (maybe not flop...........but won't skyrocket like it could).


On the other hand - lets say Triple H is fighting next week, and loses his title match (it won't happen, I'm just creating a hypothetical scenerio).

After the match, Batista tries to comfort HHH (at ringside), but HHH shoves him away. Batista then SNAPS, and power bombs Triple H! Flair slaps Batista, but then he gets Power bombed as well!

Lo and behold - a great face turn for Batista.



2) Give Batista short and "angry" mic time: The (second) worst thing that the WWE could do to Batista's character, is make him cut long promos. Batista isn't BAD on the mic, but it's not his strong suit.

If Batista can be short, angry, concise, and to the point, then that's good enough.

Batista's "impressive" physical dominance (if the WWE push him this way) will more than make up for his lack of "Rock-like" mic skills.

[RemyRed]

It would be great if the bookers can do this without fucking it up, but the thing is about how long should the build up be for Batista and Triple H feud? Most people are rooting for it to be a Wrestlemania M.E. but is it too late for them to start building for it? (Not that it can't be done at any other PPV, but WM would be a great place for Triple H to decide to pass the torch). It would be a great moment for the face Batista to beat Triple H. Also there aren't really any other M.E. status heels on Raw besides Triple H (Edge seems to be stepping up however) so how can they pull this off without giving Hunter a rematch [so quickly]?

[Heyman]

Also there aren't really any other M.E. status heels on Raw besides Triple H (Edge seems to be stepping up however) so how can they pull this off without giving Hunter a rematch [so quickly]?

I know I just said this recently, but I like the idea of Jericho going heel again (ESPECIALLY if they have nothing planned for him as a face.....unless you consider rotting in mid-card hell as a "plan" :mad: :nono: -).

I know he only turned earlier this year, but still:

Atleast as a heel, Jericho can have some TREMENDOUS matches with the likes of Benoit, Benjamin, or even HBK (if he comes back before Mania').

Jericho can counter-balance a Batista turn as well.

RAW spoiler ahead
<font color=black> On RAW - Trish mentioned how Jericho probably doesn't even remember what its like being a champion. Perhaps this can be used as "fuel" for Jericho's turn?....especially if Jericho doesn't win the title next week.......or gets shafted from the main-event due to the uncertainty of "who's champ?" (and as result, the triple threat match is forced to take place again upon Vince's orders).

[McLegend]

Wouldn't that make jericho the same heel has Edge? I'm talking about your raw spoiler

[The CyNick]

I think he has to turn, and he has to turn soon. But the problem is the WWE keeps teasing it, without a payoff, eventually fans will stop caring, ala RVD as a main eventer.

If I were booking, I would have him turn on Hunter, and somehow be a catalyst to Orton getting the title shot at Mania. Then, as a face Batista "should" beat HHH decisively in a program after Hunter drops the title to Randy at Mania.

The other option would be to send him to SD. On SD he would come in fresh, and I think they could do something decent with him coming with a Goldberg-esque monster push, leading to winning the WWE title. Actually, if they did that, he could even face Taker at Mania, and this would be a great opportunity to have Taker actually put over someone. But that aint happening.

BTW, the Goldberg push failed in WCW because WCW stopped booking him the way fans wanted him (killing everyone) and he died in WWE because, well Vince is a dumbass.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wouldn't that make jericho the same heel has Edge? I'm talking about your raw spoiler

Hmm, I'd say no because Jericho would be the "I was great, I was the greatest, then I faded, now I'm coming back!" type heel while Edge is the "I've busted my ass, I want this, I deserve this!" heel. Similiar goals, but with different purposes and motivation behind them.

Anyway, I think it would be wise to have Batista win the Rumble. Don't have him teaste leaving Evolution, don't have him tease turning face, just have him as Evolution member, Dave Batista, leading up to Mania. Have legends come in, have the current roster talk to him, and have them try to convince him that Batista should try and win the title at Mania. Have Davo blow them all off, until the magical words of Ric Flair encourage Dave Batista to refuse Triple H's commands, and win the title in the main event at Mania.

As for possible feuds after that. Edge and Kane seem easy enough to set-up, as does Snitsky and even Flair in a respect angle. The real money makers are in , IMO: Benoit, Jericho, Maven, Rhyno, Matt Hardy & Shawn Michaels.

Heyman, I have to disagree with you on giving Dave emotions. Don't have him play the guy who will get beat down every week, but have him become vulnerable not physically, but emotionally. Respect and passion could be used like this. Maybe have Triple H crack his wife's skull open with a sledgehammer? Or kidnap her and scare her senseless. This would piss-off The Leviathan, but take his mind of the game, which is the role Flair plays as his manager and most respected friend.

I really don't see Dave as emotionless. I see him as the man who will tap into some kind of evil inside his soul, but wield it for a good purpose. He will defend his friends and family, and will stop at no lengths against his enemies. Make Dave so black & white that when a figure from his "past", like Synn (revealing Dave's satanic past) makes his actions so grey that he descends into a downward spiral.

I can see the WWE screwing that up, but I'd rather see Dave become deeper than more shallow, because he really is one of the more remarkable specimens the WWE has in its pocket right now.

[Heyman]

I can see the WWE screwing that up, but I'd rather see Dave become deeper than more shallow, because he really is one of the more remarkable specimens the WWE has in its pocket right now.

First off - great post Alienoid. I agreed with your other comments (especially the Jericho/Edge comparison). Just one comment on this though:

I have ZERO faith in the WWE making Batista look "sensitive" and "tough" at the same time.

Look at what happened with Kane..........when he lost Tori to X-Pac. Look at Big Show, when Bossman made him ride the casket of his father.

UNDERTAKER on the other hand, was booked decently (i.e. when DDP was messing with Sarah). Unfortunately however, that was on the OTHER extreme (i.e. Taker squashed the living crap out of DDP and permanently ruined his credibility).


I don't mind if Batista's "past", etc. is brought up by Triple H (this would add lots of intrigue to Batista's character), but him looking "sensitive", etc. would be VERY detrimental to his character.......especially with the "geniuses" on the creative team as the brains of the operation.

[Funky Fly]

Batista for champion in 2005. That is all.

[Mr. Nerfect]

First off - great post Alienoid. I agreed with your other comments (especially the Jericho/Edge comparison). Just one comment on this though:

I have ZERO faith in the WWE making Batista look "sensitive" and "tough" at the same time.

Look at what happened with Kane..........when he lost Tori to X-Pac. Look at Big Show, when Bossman made him ride the casket of his father.

UNDERTAKER on the other hand, was booked decently (i.e. when DDP was messing with Sarah). Unfortunately however, that was on the OTHER extreme (i.e. Taker squashed the living crap out of DDP and permanently ruined his credibility).


I don't mind if Batista's "past", etc. is brought up by Triple H (this would add lots of intrigue to Batista's character), but him looking "sensitive", etc. would be VERY detrimental to his character.......especially with the "geniuses" on the creative team as the brains of the operation.

Thank you for the props, and I must say I was really regret passing up the opportunity to discuss the points you brought up in your previous discussions, because your ideas always seem to be on the same wavelink as mine around that period of time.

Anyway, I believe Batista shouldn't be billed as "sensative" as such, but rather as a character trying to keep his monster-side buried. Have it turn out he is not a horrible person like Evolution make him out to be, but a normal natured person, with a 318lbs frame, and a rage that is embedded deep inside. I personally wouldn't mind it if Tyson Tomko started showing up and asking Batista "What's it like?" and things like that when Dave is champ, but it is made to sound really creepy and to get under Dave's skin.

I remember back to when Batista first came to the WWE as Deacon Batista. Maybe they can mention how Batista turned to Christianity to escape form his past in "The Disciples of Synn". He tried to turn to love by marrying his beautiful wife. But then he kept falling after D-Von manipulated him and his faith was lost for the time being, and this is when he was starting to fall back to the darkside, but he was saved by Flair who gave him humanity. For that Batista would be forever thankful. Then Triple H tried to smother the monster and try and use it when he wanted. But the animal in Batista came out, and now he frequently uses it in short sudden bursts inside the wrestling-ring. I wouldn't mind seeing Tyson Tomko & Kevin Fertig team together to feud against Batista. It could even be good if D-Von, Ric Flair, his wife, Tyson Tomko, Seven & Synn where all "in on it". I would really be sympathetic towards Batista if it turned out that his whole life was a setup to try and change that chained up animal inside Batista into a Leviathan.

But the WWE would probably screw it up and have it revealed that Batista screwed dead bodies while working in the morgue as a stoned teenager. :-\

[big_bluto]

I remember 6 months or so ago, there was a thread about will Batista ever be a main-eventer, and the consensus then was NO.
Everyone dismissed it as he's 35 years old, there are others in front of him, etc.

Doesn't matter to me if it's heel or face.
The guy is strong and grunts. That's about it.

Plus he's not that great in matches.
Let me clarify that - his matches are fine.
But..they're never great matches.

I just don't believe he has the potential to pull off a main-event worthy match.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I remember 6 months or so ago, there was a thread about will Batista ever be a main-eventer, and the consensus then was NO.
Everyone dismissed it as he's 35 years old, there are others in front of him, etc.

Doesn't matter to me if it's heel or face.
The guy is strong and grunts. That's about it.

Plus he's not that great in matches.
Let me clarify that - his matches are fine.
But..they're never great matches.

I just don't believe he has the potential to pull off a main-event worthy match.

While he certainly can't roll aorund the ring, he does have decent psychology and has improved MASSIVELY. He has my vote for most improved wrestler of the year. I still think Batista has more wrestling skill than mpst other guys his size. Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior had nothing on Batista. While I don't know if he can have a Benoit/Bret Hart technical classic, I think we'd all be surprised at how far his skills can stretch.

[MVP]

Let's say WWE drops the ball with Batista on RAW and push for Orton to win the World title.

Batista could move to Smackdown and start over.

If I were booking I'd put the US title on a heel Batista right away (assuming Cena isn't the holder); so he'd immediately have some notoriety. I'd put Batista over as many of the midcarders as possible to give him momentum. Once Batista loses the US title he can move into the spotlight and win the WWE Title. Like CyNick said above, a WWE title win over Taker would be phenominal for Batista.

If the fans were really into Batista then I'd just push him to the WWE title immiediately while his momentum is strong.

A good trade would be Batista and maybe someone else for Angle. Heyman mentioned this idea in another thread, and I think it would benefit both shows. Angle wouldn't have to work as much on RAW, and he'd put on much better matches with the likes of Jericho, Benoit, HBK, Edge, and Orton.

[Innovator]

Rhyno vs. Batista - most intense feud possible

[Loose Cannon]

Ok, I going to discuss some things here from some comments from all the other Batista threads I have read.

First, to those who say Batista shouldn't main event for Wrestlemania 21 because he doesn't have the athleticism or the mic skills or the wrestling skills as all the other guys, I couldn't disagree more. Let's face it, in this day and age, do you really think fans pay to see a big match just for the wrestling? Don't think so. Yeah, wresting might add to the match, but great quality wrestling isn't what draws the fans. Interesting characters, interesting angles, big atmosphere, intense drama. That's what draws the fans. I mean, you guys watch drama TV right? Shows like 24, CSI, Desperate Housewives, OC :lol: (god I hate that show). Do you think people tune in going, "OMG, i can't wait for the character to show off his acting skills tonight. They're phenomenal. I watch every week to see top qulity acting." NO. Yeah, the acting may play a part on why you watch, but it's the good writing, cliff hangers, intense action etc etc etc.. that keeps people tuning in.


The Batista/HHH storyline is the most intriguing storyline the WWE has come up with in a long long while. In fact, I can't remember the last time I was interested in a storyline development like this. I mean I've been interested in a ton of characters for the past few months, but not really a storyline in general.

I mean if they build Batista up and make him dominate other guys for the next couple of months, while teasing the face turn, I have no doubt in my mind that the fans will go crazy for him. No, Batista shouldn't have the slightest emotion in him during all of this. The only emotion he needs is the emotion from the fans he'll be feeding off him when the fans are screaming from him to turn on HHH. If they do it right and slow play the turn, the reaction he'll get from the fans on the night he finally realizes that he's his own man. will be amazing.

I would go as far as to have HHH and Batista not touch until Mania if they are going this way. But I know that's unrealistic in this day and age.


And don't have Batista befreind Orton or Jericho or Benoit etc... That's the gayest thing ever. I hate when they do that. What, just because he's a babyface, he's buddy buddy with the good guys now. No. Goldberg never had any freinds during his days where he was hot. He may of helped the good guys or recieved help from them, but he wasn't buddy buddy with everyone.


I really see potential in this storyline and if done right, I could see it becoming something really really great. We'll just wait and see how it unfolds though.

[Fignuts]

Originally posted by big_bluto
Plus he's not that great in matches.
Let me clarify that - his matches are fine.
But..they're never great matches.

As I stated in another thread, his match with Orton a few weeks ago was great, and it proved to me that he had more going for him than "the look."Up until then, I wasn't sold on Batista becoming a main event talent so soon, and to be honest I'm still a little against it. But what it did prove is that Batista will definitly be a major player in the WWE.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yes Batista can make it as a main-eventer, I don't know about face, it would be more awesome if he was a heel.

[Tornado]

http://perso.club-internet.fr/austinwm/HTLM/Photos/Photos_B/Batista/Leviathan_-_Dave_Batista_01.jpg :eek:

[BigDaddyCool]

Is that Dave?

[Tornado]

Yeah, thats our Dave.

[mike627]

I think Batista wolud be a good face they have been building this turn nicely now. I fear that he may end-up geting squashed by HHH and Steph.

[Innovator]

We found the enemy in Blade 4

[.44 Magdalene]

I can see him being the huge neutral / heel that the fans still love...you know, like, he plays the heel, but he doesn't really discriminate when it comes to ass kicking. He'd just be dominating whatever the hell got in his way, and it's bad asses like that that people tend to dig. It's how I imagined Kane after the mask removal, but that went down the shitter, so now I'm hoping Batista could pull it off. No sappy sensitivity / romance / pity storylines. Just Batista kicking ass and taking names, or visa versa. Don't make him particularly a face. Keep him like he kinda is now--he's a bad guy, yeah, but he's the bad guy you want to see beating the shit out of other bad guys. Add depth and background plot as needed, but don't have him pull a Kane. Argh.

[Wildcat789]

Making Dave Batista a strong main event face with the WWE would be like pulling teeth. The WWE tends to like to experiment too much, and they like to do it on their new guys. Look at Eugene. Even though you obviously couldn't use this gimmick with a tenured wrestler, this guy will more than likely be stuck with this dead-end gimmick for the rest of his career until he is released.

Mordecai. If he made it, he'd be Mordecai for his career. There'd be no stepping around it. You wouldn't be able to change his look, because the fans would catch on in a minute.

Simon Dean. Carlito. Cena. All these guys will be the same thing throughout their career.

Now let's say that the WWE tries to do something drastic like this with Batista. It's not out of their playbook here. Building Batista, in this situation, is almost like building a playing card pyramid. One wrong move, and it's a wreck and probably a re-build. If they drop the ball here, Batista will end up like another RVD, Chris Jericho, or even Chris Benoit in some reguards.

In my opinion, although it most definately be done, the WWE will probably sit on it. Dave Batista possesses some really great potential. If the writers/bookers do it correctly, then I'm all for it. But if they aren't too sure what they're doing here, I'd rather see this face turn in a year, then watch Dave Batista and some schmuck win the Smackdown tag titles because people snored his ass out of the building.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Rhyno vs. Batista - most intense feud possible

My sentiments exactly. I've been wet-dreaming this one for a while. :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ok, I going to discuss some things here from some comments from all the other Batista threads I have read.

First, to those who say Batista shouldn't main event for Wrestlemania 21 because he doesn't have the athleticism or the mic skills or the wrestling skills as all the other guys, I couldn't disagree more. Let's face it, in this day and age, do you really think fans pay to see a big match just for the wrestling? Don't think so. Yeah, wresting might add to the match, but great quality wrestling isn't what draws the fans. Interesting characters, interesting angles, big atmosphere, intense drama. That's what draws the fans. I mean, you guys watch drama TV right? Shows like 24, CSI, Desperate Housewives, OC :lol: (god I hate that show). Do you think people tune in going, "OMG, i can't wait for the character to show off his acting skills tonight. They're phenomenal. I watch every week to see top qulity acting." NO. Yeah, the acting may play a part on why you watch, but it's the good writing, cliff hangers, intense action etc etc etc.. that keeps people tuning in.


The Batista/HHH storyline is the most intriguing storyline the WWE has come up with in a long long while. In fact, I can't remember the last time I was interested in a storyline development like this. I mean I've been interested in a ton of characters for the past few months, but not really a storyline in general.

I mean if they build Batista up and make him dominate other guys for the next couple of months, while teasing the face turn, I have no doubt in my mind that the fans will go crazy for him. No, Batista shouldn't have the slightest emotion in him during all of this. The only emotion he needs is the emotion from the fans he'll be feeding off him when the fans are screaming from him to turn on HHH. If they do it right and slow play the turn, the reaction he'll get from the fans on the night he finally realizes that he's his own man. will be amazing.

I would go as far as to have HHH and Batista not touch until Mania if they are going this way. But I know that's unrealistic in this day and age.


And don't have Batista befreind Orton or Jericho or Benoit etc... That's the gayest thing ever. I hate when they do that. What, just because he's a babyface, he's buddy buddy with the good guys now. No. Goldberg never had any freinds during his days where he was hot. He may of helped the good guys or recieved help from them, but he wasn't buddy buddy with everyone.


I really see potential in this storyline and if done right, I could see it becoming something really really great. We'll just wait and see how it unfolds though.

Great post, man. :y:

That OC comment in itself deserves rep. But anyway:

I agree with a lot you said. Don't have him turn face, or lay a hand on Triple H (or even intimidate Triple H) until Mania.

Now, the part I disagree with is where you talk about his emotions. I agree they shouldn't be visible in the ring, or at any stage leading up to Mania, but afterwards I can see a guy like Triple H putting up that picture of Leviathan (that Tornado posted), and talking about how Dave killed small animals. Maybe have Triple H reveal that his wife that he married after he came to RAW was a plant by Triple H to please Batista. Have Tyson Tomko & Kevin Fertig come in as Batista's old "brothers" (in a religious sense). Have this be all a part of Synn's plan to re-release the Leviathan, and to make him more powerful than ever.

That should be enough to push Batista over the edge. From that point on Batista doesn't fight because he is a monster, but he fights because he doesn't want to be a monster. Maybe have Ric Flair and a diva like Candace join him as a manager and valet respectively?

I don't think he should break-down, but have him show some humanity with his character.