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Heyman
12-15-2004, 01:13 AM
QUESTION - Is there a stronger "glass ceiling" on Smackdown than on RAW? (shockingly)

I alluded to this in an earlier posting of mine, but I'd like to elaborate on the subject.

In the last year and a half or so, take a look at the stars that have been created (or "elevated") on RAW.

-Chris Benoit
-Edge
-Shelton Benjamin
-Randy Orton
-Dave Batista
-Gene Snitsky
-La Resistance (to a slight extent....since they've actually beaten Edge/Benoit cleanly before)

Now compare this to Smackdown
-JBL
-Eddie Guerrero
-John Cena

Now in Smackdown's case, you can even argue that although JBL/Guerrero have been "elevated", they haven't been "elevated" to the level that they could have (as of yet). In some respects, both men have been FLOPS as main-eventers (I'll elaborate on this later).



Perhaps the biggest difference between RAW and Smackdown right now, is how they USE their "established" past World/WWE champions.

RAW:
-Triple H
-Shawn Michaels
-Chris Jericho
-Chris Benoit
-Kane


Smackdown
-Kurt Angle
-Big Show
-Undertaker
-Booker T (even though he's only been WCW champ, I'll still include him here).



Take a look at guys like Kane, Jericho, and Benoit on RAW now. Between these three, they have helped "put over" Snitsky, Orton, Edge, Benjamin, and Batista.

Triple H (arguably the biggest star on RAW) has helped Orton and Batista (he helped get them 'over' by association). He helped establish Benoit as a main-eventer, and he helped Benjamin look "for real".
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Now......take a look at Smackdown (since February/04):



-Guerrero defeated Lesnar, but the win looked "flukey" (since Goldberg interfered)

-Guerrero defeated Angle at WM, but the win once again looked "flukey". As result, Guerrero STILL didn't look like a credible main-eventer.

-JBL defeats Guerrero with a FLUKE victory to become WWE champ. Not only does this not help JBL that much, but it also solidifies the fact that Guerrero's WWE title win was a fluke.

-Kurt Angle easily defeats up-and-comer Charlie Hass in his first match back.

-Kurt Angle defeats Eddie Guerrero convincingly at Summerslam (once again solidifying the fact that Guerrero's WWE title reign was a fluke).

-JBL gets COMPLETELY dominated by Taker in his feud, but still manages to retain the title. Again - limited credibility is given to JBL. In the end - he still looks like a mid-carder out of place.

-JBL defeats Booker T (a guy who had just recently jobbed the US title CLEANLY to Cena) with a fluke victory to retain title. JBL still has limited credibility.


Adding to these disturbing facts, Smackdown has completely mis-used Rob VanDam.

-Winning the tag titles isn't too bad (since he gets TV time atleast), but they could still use him a LOT better. Oh and by the way - he wasn't on the card for Summerslam.

-Did I mention the fact that Jacqueline (woman) has a been CW champion? Funaki (an announcer) just won the CW battle Royale to become the #1 contender........against Spike Dudley (a complete jobber in the WWE for the most part) And people wonder why no one takes the CW division seriously. :nono:


The only slightly postive thing that I've seen with Smackdown this past year, has been John Cena. His feud with Booker T was decent (with Cena going over), and his matches with the Big Show also helped him gain credibility.

Kudos to Show and Booker T for putting over Cena. :y:


Other than that however, Smackdown has done a PISS poor job in creating stars. A lot of it has to do with the fact that their "established" stars aren't putting 'over' enough people.



Kurt Angle: I've always respected Angle (and always will), but he has to make a decision. Either ignore the doctors' advice and give it 110% in the ring (as a main-eventer), or work a WAY lighter schedule and be a mid-card type guy that helps create new stars.

Given Angle's current physical condition, I'd go with the latter. If Angle can no longer do the things that he once could (because of his neck), then he should give BACK to the business....and put others over at the right time (basically......like what Jericho is doing on RAW).

There's nothing worse than seeing an INJURED and washed-up main-eventer holding down others.

Also - Angle HAS jobbed quite a bit in the past (to Edge, Big Show, Lesnar, Taker, etc.). Unlike guys.........Triple H/Undertaker for instance, there isn't much "shock value" for a upper mid-card guy in defeating Angle.

For instance - if Cena were to defeat Angle on Smackdown, would it really put him "over the top" so to speak? (i.e. would the fans really be THAT surprised?).


Undertaker:

-Since Smackdown wants JBL to be their "centerpiece" (if the last half-year is of any indication), then they MUST have Taker job CLEANLY to JBL.

Triple H finally got established when Mick Foley jobbed to him THREE times (and before this - I'd argue that Triple H still wasn't seen as a TRUE heel main-eventer).

If Undertaker could job to JBL TWICE (or even ONCE) CLEANLY.........then JBL will finally cross that threshold between "pretender" and "contender".


Undertaker is another guy who is physically washed up (from what I know). It's SENSELESS to have him completely squash other wrestlers. The only way that Taker squashing others would make ANY sense, was if Taker was physically capable of working a rigorous schedule as WWE champion......(only to have him do a significant JOB of sorts at a later date).



Here's what I think:

-If Taker wins the belt from JBL, only for there to be a Taker/Angle main-event at Wrestlemania, then this past half-year for Smackdown will have been a COMPLETE waste (since JBL would have gained almost zero credibility during his reign).

What I'd like to see happen:

-I'm not a HUGE fan of this idea, but I'd like to see JBL win the fatal four way on Sunday. After that, JBL defeats Booker T CLEANLY in a singles match. JBL then does the same to Eddie Guerrero a little while later. The "crowning achievment" so to speak, would be JBL cleanly defeating Undertaker.

At Wrestlemania, John Cena defeats JBL to become the NEW WWE champion.


1) JBL becomes a credible main-eventer with all his wins.

2) John Cena becomes a credible main-eventer.


Other things:

-Luther Reigns should defeat Big Show cleanly at one point.

-A heel Charlie Hass (with Dawn Marie) should go over Booker T at some point.

-A re-juvinated Rob Van Dam defeats Kurt Angle cleanly (and re-establishes himself as a decent upper-card wrestler).

-Billy Kidman defeats Eddie Guerrero to become a decent upper-card wrestler.



New stars created/elevated on Smackdown:

-John Cena
-Luther Reigns
-Charlie Hass
-Rob Van Dam
-Billy Kidman



The way things are going now for SD, I just don't see many new stars really being created. At this point, I see FAR more potential for growth on RAW.



I hope my suggestions (or some of them) could be used.


The key for RAW, REALLY is Jericho, Benoit, and Kane when you think about it. All 3 of these guys are former main-event guys, who are now mid-card wrestlers (but still get booked in such a way that they APPEAR to be "main-event" guys at times). In the end - they help elevate other superstars.....without losing too much of their own credibility in the long run (since they get re-built).

I never used to appreciate Kane's role in the WWE until now. The WWE makes Kane look "tough"........only to have him put over an up-and-comer (like Snitsky for instance). Just when you think Kane is a pussy......they re-build him again (for his next "JOB").



Smackdown NEEDS those types of guys. They HAVE those types of guys, but they aren't being used like that.


-Big Show will never draw for Smackdown as a champion.
-Angle is washed up
-Taker is washed up
-Booker T, although excellent, is a thing of that past.


These 4 guys NEED to play the same role that Jericho, Benoit, Kane, and HBK (trust me.......when he comes back, this is what he'll be doing) do for RAW.

-Angle/Booker T/Big Show -->Jericho/Benoit/Kane

-Taker --> HBK

-RVD should be in the same position that Edge is in on RAW.

-JBL should be at the same point, that Triple H was in at the beginning of 2000 (i.e. a guy who's about to get a few clean significant victories).

-Luther Reigns --> Dave Batista

-Charlie Hass --> Shelton Benjamin

-John Cena --> Randy Orton

-Heidenreich --> Gene Snitsky


Hopefully - things will shape up.

Heyman
12-15-2004, 01:24 AM
In regards to Angle,

I still think Angle is a guy who can "put over" mid-carders into upper mid-carders.

For instance - at this point, I think it would really help a guy like RVD to go 'over' Angle cleanly.

However - that's not to say that I think the "same effect" would happen if.....Paul London defeated Angle. That would just make Angle look embarrisingly weak (since London needs to be built up more).

Lastly - I DON"T think that a guy like Angle could take an upper mid-card wrestler, and make them a CREDIBLE main-eventer via job. For instance - Angle could NOT make Cena a "credible" main-eventer via jobbing (since he's jobbed in that role way too many times in the past).

IMO - Only Undertaker is capable of achieving this effect on Smackdown (as of this writing).

Nark Order
12-15-2004, 01:29 AM
I definately thought that Muhammad Hassan should've been on Smackdown and not RAW. Smackdown is in much greater need for superstars than RAW....

Nark Order
12-15-2004, 01:30 AM
Also, I wouldn't complain if Christian moved to Smackdown either...

John la Rock
12-15-2004, 01:33 AM
I agree ^

Hassan looks like he's going to be huge. He has a great look and is a natural on the mic. Smackdown can really use him

As for the question I agree with you Heyman...But why not have Taker beat JBL cleanly at Royal Rumble for the belt. And than Taker can wrestler John Cena (the winner of the Rumble) in the main-event at Wrestlemania 21 for the belt?

John Cena vs Undertaker matches have been money in the past. And having Cena pinn Taker cleanly at WRESTLEMANIA will really push "The Doctor of Thuganomics" to the moon as a MEGA STAR

Mr. Nerfect
12-15-2004, 01:40 AM
In regards to Angle,

I still think Angle is a guy who can "put over" mid-carders into upper mid-carders.

For instance - at this point, I think it would really help a guy like RVD to go 'over' Angle cleanly.

However - that's not to say that I think the "same effect" would happen if.....Paul London defeated Angle. That would just make Angle look embarrisingly weak (since London needs to be built up more).

Lastly - I DON"T think that a guy like Angle could take an upper mid-card wrestler, and make them a CREDIBLE main-eventer via job. For instance - Angle could NOT make Cena a "credible" main-eventer via jobbing (since he's jobbed in that role way too many times in the past).

IMO - Only Undertaker is capable of achieving this effect on Smackdown (as of this writing).

I actually like the idea of Paul London coming out when SmackDown! goes to Austin, Texas for Angle's hometown challenge and challenges him for his medals. Angle then says that London can't challenge, because Kurt knows for sure London isn't a hero. This pisses off Paul who they faces Angle and manages to pull out a win using the tights or somehting (after a gruelling match).

I personally think London has a "Stone Cold"-esque aura to him, and although they shouldn't have him beat down 20 guys as once, they could have him billed as the tough cruiserweight who never backs down from a fight.

Mr. Nerfect
12-15-2004, 01:41 AM
BTW, I don't think the glass ceiling is stronger on SmackDown!, I just think it is disguised better on RAW.

Head
12-15-2004, 02:07 AM
Angle can never be anything but a main eventer. He's just too over.

Heyman
12-15-2004, 03:39 AM
I definately thought that Muhammad Hassan should've been on Smackdown and not RAW. Smackdown is in much greater need for superstars than RAW....


I agree with that. I am also intrigued with the idea of moving Christian (if they don't push him soon, I fear that the fans will completely "give up" on Christian......and he'll be a mid-carder forever. Christian needs a solid victory over someone important. I wonder if HBK would've done that if he hadn't got hurt. :?: -).

Nonetheless - guys like Muhammad Hussan, Simon Dean, Maven, and Christian ALL are much more 'over' than a lot of the lower-card vaginal waste that we see on Smackdown (i.e. Kenzo Suzuki, Renee Dupree, Spike Dudley, Shannon Moore, etc.).

Speaking of Hussan, he got some pretty decent heat eh? I hope that the WWE gets rid of the "La Resistance" gimmicks for Dupree, Conway, and Grenier (so that the "anti-American" gimmick doesn't become redundant).


Here's what I wouldn't mind seeing:

-Lets assume that Lesnar makes his return to wrestling before Wrestlemania.

-Smackdown claims that Lesnar is there property, but RAW claims that he's a "free agent" (and Lesnar is allowed to show up on RAW). Vince agrees with Smackdown, and decides that Bischoff must send a package that adequately makes up for Lesnar.

-Guys like Maven, Simon Dean, Mohammad Hussan, Hurricane, and Val Venis are sent to Smackdown (Hurricane and Venis get new gimmicks).

If not Lesnar, then make the same package..........but with Eddie Guerrero (silly idea, but I'm assuming that if Cena emerges even more, then the loss of Guerrero won't be as severe....I dunno).

Heyman
12-15-2004, 03:43 AM
And having Cena pinn Taker cleanly at WRESTLEMANIA will really push "The Doctor of Thuganomics" to the moon as a MEGA STAR

That would be ideal, but Taker jobbing to Cena (at Mania) is VERY VERY unlikely. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I can't see Taker doing that.


Also - If JBL jobs cleanly to Taker, then this whole year kinda goes to waste.


Smackdown has tried painstakingly hard to make JBL a credible main-eventer. However - they've yet to give him a CLEAN win over someone respectable.

If JBL jobs now, then he'll basically revert back into the piece of shit mid-carder that he once was.

Heyman
12-15-2004, 03:47 AM
Angle can never be anything but a main eventer. He's just too over.


What's the point of someone being a main-eventer, if they're injury-prone and practically washed-up? (or is one wrong bump away from being in a wheel chair for life).

When you're a main-eventer, you're expected to carry the company/show. Can Angle do that now? I doubt it.

IMO - Angle should play the same role as Benoit does on RAW now (i.e. have the APPEARANCE of being a main-eventer, but JOB at the right time to up-and-comers).

If Angle is unwilling to do this, then I think he should retire.


p.s. As far as the "overness" goes, why can't he use that heelish "overness" to get mid-card faces over (like RVD).

Kane Knight
12-15-2004, 11:19 AM
That would be ideal, but Taker jobbing to Cena <s>(at Mania)</s> is VERY VERY unlikely.
Fixed

Heyman
12-15-2004, 04:21 PM
BTW, I don't think the glass ceiling is stronger on SmackDown!, I just think it is disguised better on RAW.


In some ways, yes. In other ways, no.

For example - I'd argue that its MUCH easier to introduce new characters to Smackdown (since the undercard on Smackdown is very weak right now). Guys like Simon Dean, Maven, Mohammad Hussan, and Christian would have a MUCH easier time moving "up" initially (hell - CCC won the US title his on his debut!).

After that however - the glass ceiling on Smackdown goes into full force.


With the way Charlie Hass, Billy Kidman, Renee Dupree, Kenzo Suzuki, Rey Mysterio, etc. look right now, can you honestly see anyone from this group going "over" the likes of a Undertaker or Kurt Angle anytime soon?

Luther Reigns has been built up well, but he still needs to get a SIGNIFICANT victory of sorts (RVD was ok, but a guy like Booker T or Big Show would be much bigger).



Another HUGE difference between RAW and Smackdown, is their #1 "established" main-eventer.


RAW --> Triple H
Smackdown --> Undertaker


Triple H is a guy who has been made to look nearly unbeatable. While many on here point out the negatives of this (and I understand this), many also fail to see the postives.

-Benjamin gained credibility in "almost" defeating Triple H (and consistently looking better).

-Batista and Orton got 'over' by being associated with Triple H

-Benoit became an established main-eventer by defeating Triple H.



As far as I can see, Undertaker has *NOT* done the same thing for Smackdown.

-He destroyed Heidenreich
-He destroyed the Dudleys
-He completely dominated JBL, before jobbing via screwjob.
-He gets booked to look like a bigger face than Eddie Guerrero and John Cena.



Even if Undertaker looked like he was CLOSE to jobbing (like HHH did for Benjamin), he'd be helping out others.



Why do people constantly critisize Triple H, but barely attack Undertaker?

LK
12-15-2004, 04:40 PM
I would agree that Hassan should have been sent to Smackdown but aren't they able to do more controversial things on Raw than Smackdown which I think i swhy they put him on Raw.

LK
12-15-2004, 04:42 PM
Why do people constantly critisize Triple H, but barely attack Undertaker?
I guess cause people still find Taker entertaining which isn't really the case for HHH around here.

John la Rock
12-15-2004, 04:45 PM
also because HHH is married to Steph

RGWhat316
12-15-2004, 05:55 PM
Also - If JBL jobs cleanly to Taker, then this whole year kinda goes to waste.


Smackdown has tried painstakingly hard to make JBL a credible main-eventer. However - they've yet to give him a CLEAN win over someone respectable.

If JBL jobs now, then he'll basically revert back into the piece of shit mid-carder that he once was.

I completely agree with you here. I even like the JBL character. But they can't make him come out each and every week and say how great of a champion he is, when he has not beat one person CLEANLY. He hasn't even beaten someone cleanly in a tag match!

Now you can say this is his way of getting heel heat. But the thing I have always hated most in the WWE is a wussy heel. A heel is a bad guy that does things that make you want to hate him. But in JBL's case, I don't want to hate him because he's a heel, I want to hate him because he's scared of everyone and runs away. A real heel like maneuver would've been at Summer Slam if JBL had did something to Taker on that limo. But instead, Taker destorys JBL, making him look weak.

The bottom line is, if WWE wants to make whoever takes the belt off of JBL seem important, then they need to have JBL win cleanly. Have him use a finishing move, instead of interference.