A bit old, and probaby a moot point by now, but ECW

[BigDaddyCool]

I've been watching a lot of that Rise and Fall of ECW lately. And you know at the end, Paul Heyman is saying ECW died because it couldn't find another network in time, and that is the only reason it died. For some reason I don't buy that.

This is just me thinkin', and I don't know shit about the acctaul workings of the wrestling business, though I do know a thing or 2 about general business.

I think the real reasons it fail was because of what Bubba and DVon had to say about Heyman not letting other people help him. Acctaully, I'm going to say that ECW death started back when Paul did have people help him. He had the wrong people help. Sure, by having the wrestlers also work the phones, and get the date set and all of that other stuff, it can save money in the long run. But he never got people just to do that kind of stuff, he needed to get a back office so he could grow.

It is like having the same guy take your order then make you food. Sure it works with a short order cook in a lunch van, but when you start growing as a resturant, you need a cook and waiter/cashier/whatever.

Also, by having the talent do all the extra work, they became harder to let go. So when they leave to ply there trade elsewhere (i.e. wrestle), not only did he lose a wrestler, he also lost his graphic designer, or his venue booker, or his book keeper or his whatever. And I'm willing to bet he lost trust in getting someone else to do it because they will just leave too.

So, while he may have saved money in the beginning, he lost it in the end. If he had a graphic designer do the T-shirts and knew the business of graphic design and all of that instead of Taz, the guy could have probably knew how to save more money buy t-shirt in bulk and where to look, and how to court vendors and such. Or if he had a business manager book all the venues instead of Bubba, they could have worked about better deals with venues and so forth.

Then there is the fact that by the time ECW died, grunge was dead too (not the wrestler, the music scene). That and for some retard reason Paul didn't want to give up that crappy production value and try to make them look more professional. But no, he wanted to keep the same shitty production that made ECW have porno quality production values. Hell, I've seen pornos (not by Playboy) that had better production values than ECW.

I guess Paul didn't realize you can't run a Wal-mart Supercenter like a Mom and Pop grocery store.

Plus that whole thing about not pay his talent.

[Chavo Classic]

Yes

[Bad Company]

I agree about production values, that's why TNA needs to be careful

[Crashnburn]

I agree about production values, that's why TNA needs to be careful

TNA's production is already better than what ECW had and they are still steadily getting better.

[LK]

TNA's production is already better than what ECW had and they are still steadily getting better.
I honestly am not sure if TNA will ever be as good as ECW was at it's peak.

As for what BDC said, he's right. Heyman was doing pretty much everything himself which was just impossible. There were a number of factors that lead to the demise of ECW but Heyman himself was a major part of the fall. Like pretty much all the guys of ECW guys say, Heyman is a wrestling genius but isn't a businessman.

[Crashnburn]

I honestly am not sure if TNA will ever be as good as ECW was at it's peak.


Oh, I wasn't saying that TNA itself was better than ECW. I was just saying their production value is better than what ECW use to put out.

[Good Ol JG]

[B][I]I think ECW's production value was fine for what they tried to do. I mean it wasn't on par with WWE or WCW sure, but ECW didn't try to compete with the look because they knew they couldn't, they didn't have the money to. ECW's strength lied in the wrestling and the storytelling, that's what they tried to sell. From that standpoint I think it was fine. I mean I'd rather get a great present wrapped in a newspaper than a pile of a shit wrapped in gold wrapping paper. But that's just how I look at it. But I agree with BigDaddyCool about how ECW was ran and why it failed.

[Crippler 666]

The reason it failed was Vince bought shares in the TV companies that aired ECW. Then said he didn't want them showing them....

It is true that he couldn't find another network in time...

.... but Vince had made a real good offer, with wrestlers jumping ship all too quickly he had no choice but to sell up

[wwesucks]

hell it's the same with people saying vince russo and Aol killed wCw, but Vince McAsshole
pulled the plug!

[PullMyFinger]

Grunge scene died way back in 94-96. After Cobain's death, the mainstream grunge scene slowly faded and died.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

TNA's production is already better than what ECW had and they are still steadily getting better.
TNA has also lost more money in the short time they've been open than ECW ever did.

[diamondcutter]

I think that what the Dudleys said about the way Heyman ran ECW didn't help matters, but I agree with what Heyman said was the final blow. Not sure if I agree with what Vince believes killed them (Not appealing to a mainstream audience after getting their TV deal).

The one thing that I didn't agree with that Heyman said on the DVD was "talent raids" during the Monday Night Wars. He claimed that Eric Bischoff "stole" Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, and others. I guess Eric put a gun to their heads and said "Come work for me...or else."

[TerranRich]

IIt is like having the same guy take your order then make you food. Sure it works with a short order cook in a lunch van, but when you start growing as a resturant, you need a cook and waiter/cashier/whatever.

I'm assuming you don't mean Subway, because that's how it's run. :p

[BigDaddyCool]

I'm assuming you don't mean Subway, because that's how it's run. :p

Yeah, subway is ran like a mom and pop deli, so are Mr. Goodcents and other such stores. They can get away with that. Anyhow, it was just a generalization.

[Rob]

Paul Heyman is right in that ECW died because they didn't have TV.

What he forgets to mention is that they were very close to getting a deal on USA Network and then instead of following through on this deal or talking with at least 2 financial backers who were willing to invest in the company, Heyman put everything on the back burner so he could go to Hollywood and make Rollerball without telling anyone he worked for. He was also picking up TWO paychecks while his staff where in huge amounts of debt (Chris Candido and Tammy Sytch actually lost a million dollar house over it).

[BigDaddyCool]

Paul Heyman is right in that ECW died because they didn't have TV.

What he forgets to mention is that they were very close to getting a deal on USA Network and then instead of following through on this deal or talking with at least 2 financial backers who were willing to invest in the company, Heyman put everything on the back burner so he could go to Hollywood and make Rollerball without telling anyone he worked for. He was also picking up TWO paychecks while his staff where in huge amounts of debt (Chris Candido and Tammy Sytch actually lost a million dollar house over it).

Wow.

[PullMyFinger]

Paul Heyman is right in that ECW died because they didn't have TV.

What he forgets to mention is that they were very close to getting a deal on USA Network and then instead of following through on this deal or talking with at least 2 financial backers who were willing to invest in the company, Heyman put everything on the back burner so he could go to Hollywood and make Rollerball without telling anyone he worked for. He was also picking up TWO paychecks while his staff where in huge amounts of debt (Chris Candido and Tammy Sytch actually lost a million dollar house over it).
What an absolute bast.

[Rob]

I have no problem with Heyman really but I think what he did was a real shitty thing to do. Knowing what he did though, I can't understand why people talk about him like he is the saviour of pro wrestling. Yeah he is a creative "genius" but he obviously lacks important skills elsewhere.

[BigDaddyCool]

I have no problem with Heyman really but I think what he did was a real shitty thing to do. Knowing what he did though, I can't understand why people talk about him like he is the saviour of pro wrestling. Yeah he is a creative "genius" but he obviously lacks important skills elsewhere.

Yeah...prehaps if he worked for Ted Turner and was allowed to book everything his way, but had a corparate office that took care of books and such, maybe WCW would still exist, but then we would have no Eric Bischoff.

[Gertner]

I personally think that the buisness grew too big for Heyman. You can't put on show in 2,000 capacity arenas and expect to be able to pay all the wrestlers. I think Heyman should have tried for bigger venues. Having been to ECW shows I understand the intimacy between the wrestlers and the fans, but I really think ECW should have tried to do shows in bigger venues.

[Rob]

I personally think that the buisness grew too big for Heyman. You can't put on show in 2,000 capacity arenas and expect to be able to pay all the wrestlers. I think Heyman should have tried for bigger venues. Having been to ECW shows I understand the intimacy between the wrestlers and the fans, but I really think ECW should have tried to do shows in bigger venues.

He did run bigger buildings. His biggest problem came when all his guys were jumping to WCW or WWE for huge money. He couldn't afford them. He should have either sold the company to a financial backer or realised he was never going to be bigger than WCW and become the feeder league to the big 2.

[Rob]

Yeah...prehaps if he worked for Ted Turner and was allowed to book everything his way, but had a corparate office that took care of books and such, maybe WCW would still exist, but then we would have no Eric Bischoff.

Actually, Bischoff had some wicked ideas for WCW when he was planning on buying them. I think he had a great chance to turn that company around especially since there'd be no more Turner millions behind him. He knew what he was playing with, what his biggest problems were and was willing to take time to get his goals.