Lakers-Clippers-Heat

[BCWWF]

I always hear "Look at how good the Heat are now that they got Shaq and how bad the Lakers are now that they don't have him"

If you ask me, that is probably the most stupid thing I have ever heard. Shaq was traded to a team with tremendous young talent just bound to break up, while the Lakers were left with one superstar and one marginally good player. My question is how good would the Lakers be if they still had Shaq but Kobe left. Consider if the Lakers decided to let Kobe walk, he signed with the Clippers.

Lakers:
C Shaq
F Medvedenko
F Jumaine Jones
G Deavan George
G Chucky Atkins
Bench: Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, Vlade Divacs, Tierre Brown, Sasha Vujacic.

Heat:
C Alonzo Mourning
F Udonis Haslem
F Lamar Odom
G Eddie Jones
G Dwayne Wade
Bench: Damon Jones, Caron Butler, Christian Laettner, Michael Doleac, Steve Smith, Brian Grant, Keyon Dooling, Shandon Anderson

Clippers:
C Chris Kaman
F Elton Brand
F Corey Maggette
G Kobe Bryant
G Marco Jaric
Bench: Bobby Simmons, Chris Wilcox, Shaun Livingson, Rick Brunson, Quinton Ross, Mikki Moore


I think by looking at those potential lineups, you can make a case for the Lakers being the worst of the three teams.

[Crimson]

Excuse me..but I believe the Dolphins are on the clock..!!

And it looks like Miami would still be the best of those 3 teams.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Mourning wouldn't have rejoined the Heat though

[Apprentice]

From the standpoint of the Lakers, if they kept Shaq, they probably would have made some different moves. They could have kept Payton and they could have kept Rush. That would give you a lineup of Shaq, Slava, George, Rush and Payton. You also have to consider the free agency. They got Vlade to replace Shaq so they probably would have used his salary for another veteran but probably a power forward.

[YOUR Hero]

Sorry, but this is bullshit logic by a Lakers fan. This year Shaq proved that he is the better man over Bryant.

[BCWWF]

No its not. Shaq plays for a much better team, if the Heat didn't trade for Shaq they would still be a top 4 seed in the playoffs this season, getting Shaq just made them even better. Shaq is smart, the Lakers were obviously over even if he did come back. What made that team good was that guys like Horry and Fisher could be great role players and hit clutch shots, they didn't have the roleplayers last year and they certainly never were going to this year. Shaq saw that and went to a team with one of the top young players in the league and a team that had tremendous potential. If they were going to trade Shaq to the Hornets for Baron Davis, PJ Brown, and Jamal Magliore, you can bet your farm that Shaq wouldn't have gone there because a team with one good player, no matter how good that one player is, can never succeed.

I'm not trying to hide it, Shaq is one of the best players in the league and deserves to be where he is right now as an MVP candidate. What I am bringing to light is that the Lakers and the Heat are not equal teams by any means. Because the Heat with Shaq did better then the Lakers with Kobe means absolute jack shit. The reasoning is right above there, the Lakers don't have nearly the talent that the Heat have.

Shaq isn't responsible for Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, or Dwayne Wade being good players. They were all great players who had the added benefit of Shaq making them better. Shaq has never played the role of making an average player a superstar, but people either overlook it or refuse to admit it. He has always played the role of making the players around him better, but he has never played the role of making shitty players better.

That is what Kobe tried to do this season. He tried to make a team of misfits and backups compete in the Western Conference with an interim coach. Shaq made a team of young guys with tremendous potential (Wade, Haslem) and established veterans (Jones) better.

You can't compare Shaq's success with Kobe's success this season because they both play for completely teams, in completely different scenarios, and against very different competition. We've seen what happens with Kobe on a team of nobodies, but until we've seen Shaq on a team of nobodies then he is no better then anybody else. He is a smart businessman and thats all there is to it.

[DaveWadding]

Shaq isn't responsible for Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, or Dwayne Wade being good players. They were all great players who had the added benefit of Shaq making them better. Shaq has never played the role of making an average player a superstar, but people either overlook it or refuse to admit it. He has always played the role of making the players around him better, but he has never played the role of making shitty players better.
Penny - Shaq does not a great player make.

Penny without the Big Guy makes him above average AT BEST.

And this comes from a long time Penny fan.

[BCWWF]

Penny isn't the same player that Kobe or Dwayne is, and he was never on the same level that Kobe has been on since the 3-pear or that Dwayne is on, but in a way that further proves goes against Shaq because he didn't have a tonn of success until he got with player on the level of Kobe and Dwayne.

[The Outlaw]

Penny isn't the same player that Kobe or Dwayne is, and he was never on the same level that Kobe has been on since the 3-pear or that Dwayne is on, but in a way that further proves goes against Shaq because he didn't have a tonn of success until he got with player on the level of Kobe and Dwayne.
...

Yeah, it's not like he single-handedly turned the Orlando Magic around or anything. Not like he didn't make a 10 game turnaround as a rookie. He didn't have success? Define success. If you are looking at it from a ring perspective, then sure, but then again, KG isn't successful in that respect either. If not, then explain.

I'm with Hero on this one. Before the season, you were saying the Lakers would still make the playoffs and that Kobe would be responsible for it.

Like a wise horse once said, he made his bed.

[The Icon of Elisim]

That is what Kobe tried to do this season. He tried to make a team of misfits and backups compete in the Western Conference with an interim coach.
Brian Grant and Lamar Odom are not misfits or backups and Caron Butler is a great player. Rudy T was never meant to be an interm coach either

[PureHatred]

This is idiotic. I'm a Lakers fand and I KNOW that this is a bunch of bullshit logic. This is a lame attmept to defend Kobe Bryant and the fact that "his" team has gone to shit. They went from a team that was a legit title contender to a team that will struggle to make the playoffs for the next three years because of his ego and politics.

Kobe made life hell for Phil. Kobe made life hell for Shaquille. Kobe made it clear through his comments that if Jerry Buss wanted him around, he'd have to get rid of those two. Buss did, which means he's just as much as fault for what happened to the Lakes as anyone, but lets stay with Kobe.

He alienated Karl Malone, which is a huge reason Malone didn't come back.

And as for this team this year, Kobe doesn't play well with Lamar and even his teammates have turned on him. The Atkins comments weren't the first things that have been said about him this year.

As for your imaginary world:

Half those veterans wouldn't have signed with the Heat if Shaq hadn't been there. Zo, Smith, Doleac, Laettner, Dooling; they all took less money to be on the Heat because having Shaq gives you a shot at a title. And guys like him. Remember, last year its Malone and Payton who said they went to the Lakers after Shaq asked them to.

The Clips: playoff team with Kobe. I agree.

Lakers: That money they paid Kobe would've gone to other free agents. Malone would've stayed. They could've kept Rush. Phil would've stayed.

Long term, I can see the logic in paying the younger player. And as a fan, I support the Lakers and really don't want to rehash what is being called "the worst trade in sports history." But everything that happened this year is a direct result of Kobe being a prima donna and Buss not having the guts to tell him to fuck off.

[BCWWF]

First of all, everybody keeps mentioning Kareem Rush. I am a big Rush fan, as he graduated from Mizzou, but he's not that good. He's barely doing anything on the Bobcats and they don't have other people to take his opportunities away.

Second of all, if the Lakers had Shaq instead of Kobe, Karl Malone came back for the second half of the season, and they managed to find some other superstar or at least good players with Kobe's free agency money, the Lakers STILL wouldn't be very good. I think they would be in the playoffs, but they wouldn't be as successful as the Heat are or as successful as the Lakers were with Kobe gone.

There is an issue that people never bring up in this topic, and that is that Shaq wants to be the highest paid player in the league when his next contract comes up...

Hold on I am going to have to go back and Quote, I'll post again in a minute.

[BCWWF]

...

Yeah, it's not like he single-handedly turned the Orlando Magic around or anything. Not like he didn't make a 10 game turnaround as a rookie. He didn't have success? Define success. If you are looking at it from a ring perspective, then sure, but then again, KG isn't successful in that respect either. If not, then explain.

I'm with Hero on this one. Before the season, you were saying the Lakers would still make the playoffs and that Kobe would be responsible for it.

Like a wise horse once said, he made his bed.
You've gone off on a tangent to god knows where, but here goes: There is the notion that whereever Shaquile goes he makes them an automatic title contender. He went to the Lakers and they won three titles, he went to the Heat and now they are dominating the East, but both of those teams already had a superstar guard and a strong supporting cast. When you add a great player to a team, the team gets better its as simple as that. When you have a team with two of the top players in the game, you will be really good. So adding Shaq to the Magic, of course they will be better. My point being is that when you add Shaq to a good team, they will likely become REALLY good, but when he is playing on an average or bad team, they won't be a title contender. This isn't me just trying to take a knock on Shaq, because its true for any player. If you put Duncan on the Hawks, they wouldn't make the playoffs, if you put Kidd on the Hawks, they wouldn't make the playoffs, if you put Shaq on the Hawks, they wouldn't make the playoffs, its that simple.

I don't know how or why KG got brought into this, because he was never mentioned and has absolutely no relation to this, but technically he hasn't been a successful basketball player to this point. He is an extremely talented basketball player with more passion then most players in the game, but he hasn't been able to win big. He has done pretty well for being the only player on the team for six years (making the playoffs but losing right away), then he got players and got further, now this year shit went down and KG is getting a lot of heat for not at least making the playoffs. The thing is though, if KG played with Kobe or Wade, you can count your silver dollars that they would be a title contender every year, just like Shaq and those two were.

FINALLY, a horse is a horse, of course of course

Brian Grant and Lamar Odom are not misfits or backups and Caron Butler is a great player. Rudy T was never meant to be an interm coach either
Whoooaaa there. First of all, Brian Grant was pretty good about six years ago on Portland, now he is a backup for any team in the NBA. Lets not get confused here. Lamar Odom is a good player but not an all-star (maybe in the East). Before his year on the Heat, Odom wasn't really that good, then he had a breakout year for the Heat and was sent to a team that made him completely ineffective. He is part of the reason the Lakers didn't have success this year, but when I say that I don't mean that its Lamar's fault, its just that he was expected to play a huge role for them this year, but he wasn't capable of doing that in their system. If they can move him in the offseason (Which is likely) and especially back to the East, he could definately flourish. (Odom for Kidd anybody?) The way you have that written, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are implying that out of the three Caron Butler is the best player? If so then that is wrong. Butler was a backup on the Heat last year to Eddie Jones. He had some potential but he is never going to be a superstar. He could put up solid numbers if he went to a team like Atlanta or New Orleans, but he's not a superstar and he's not going to help any team where he plays behind one of the best SG in the game. (I will address this more in the final quote, about the trade)

This is idiotic. I'm a Lakers fand and I KNOW that this is a bunch of bullshit logic. This is a lame attmept to defend Kobe Bryant and the fact that "his" team has gone to shit. They went from a team that was a legit title contender to a team that will struggle to make the playoffs for the next three years because of his ego and politics.
I don't really know how you can say its idiot logic. If Kobe had walked, there was nobody in the FA pool even close to a superstar they could have signed at that point. You can make points that they would have made different moves, but even so Shaq's supporting cast wouldn't be a great deal better then the one I originally posted. If Karl Malone had come back, it wouldn't have been until after Christmas, and he probably wouldn't have started either. Kareem Rush is addressed in the other post.

Its easy to put the COMPLETE blame on Kobe, blame his ego, but do you really think that it was completely his fault? Did you not notice Shaq going to the press and attacking Kobe all the time but hidden behind little jokes and self-confidence? The truth is, the Lakers had the decision to resign Kobe at age 27 or else keep Shaq and resign him for the NBA's biggest contract at age 35 or so. They could have done both, but it was clear to everybody that the Lakers no longer had the juice anymore, even if it was still Kobe and Shaq. I'm not saying that Kobe Bryant doesn't have an ego either, I'm sure he does, but through the media I have only heard about it. You can defend it if you want, but Shaq has the biggest head in the game, he hides it with comedy, and you can say that he deserves it, but he has a tremendous ego aswell, he is just extremely smart about the way he goes about himself and getting off that team. I guarantee you that Shaq is more happy now then he would have been on a Kobeless Lakers team.

He alienated Karl Malone, which is a huge reason Malone didn't come back.
Karl wanted to win a title, the Lakers CLEARLY weren't going to win a title this year. When the first opportunity to leave the Lakers arrived, Karl jumped on it. If I was Karl I wouldn't have wanted to go to the Lakers either, but it was as clear as day that Karl wanted to get out any way possible without making a complete ass of himself.

I could go find Kobe's quote that Karl cried over, but I think we all remember the jist of it. Karl was waiting for his first opportunity and then jumped on it. Simple as that.

Half those veterans wouldn't have signed with the Heat if Shaq hadn't been there. Zo, Smith, Doleac, Laettner, Dooling; they all took less money to be on the Heat because having Shaq gives you a shot at a title. And guys like him. Remember, last year its Malone and Payton who said they went to the Lakers after Shaq asked them to.
That is all speculation and I'm sure if I looked it up it wouldn't be true (for every one of them). If Shaq hadn't gone to the Heat, they would have brought back their whole team who was what, 5th in the East last year and very young. They would have been a good team, not as good, but not bad. Also, none of those players you mentioned matter.

Long term, I can see the logic in paying the younger player. And as a fan, I support the Lakers and really don't want to rehash what is being called "the worst trade in sports history." But everything that happened this year is a direct result of Kobe being a prima donna and Buss not having the guts to tell him to fuck off.
Everything that happened this year may have been related to Kobe being a prima donna and Buss not having guts, but look at it. In the end, that was a horrible trade for the Lakers. They didn't get screwed out of a great player by any means, it was an even trade, they just didn't get the players to help them. Butler plays the same position as Kobe, Lamar doesn't fit their system at all, and Brian Grant :| The problem with the Lakers all year is that they don't have the big man. Chris Mihm was good for one game, Divac was good for the IL, but they didn't have a big man, and without a big man a team can not be successful. It goes the same way, without good guard play, a big man can not lead a great team. Add that to a team with an interim coach who clearly doesn't want to be there, you aren't going to have a successful team. If they can move Odom and Butler somewhere and get a PF or C who can perform, the Lakers should be back in the playoffs next year, otherwise they can wait until their contracts are up and they will still be bad.

But there is talk about Phil Jackson coming back, he was even at one of their games last week. I think that may be the first sign that the media completely sensationalized that book and this whole story. I'm not saying Kobe is an angel, but the way he was made into the worst devil on the planet threw up a red flag for me.

[The Outlaw]

When you add a great player to a team, the team gets better its as simple as that. When you have a team with two of the top players in the game, you will be really good. So adding Shaq to the Magic, of course they will be better.


Dennis Scott, Terry Catledge, Scott Skiles, and Nick Anderson. Which one of those do you consider to be "really good"/one of the top players? And you can basically scratch Scott as he missed a lot of the 92-93 season. Also, I made a mistake, Shaq turned the Magic around by 20 games. Went from 21-61 to 41-41. But then again, he did have Nick Anderson. That must be the explanation.


I don't know how or why KG got brought into this, because he was never mentioned and has absolutely no relation to this, but technically he hasn't been a successful basketball player to this point. He is an extremely talented basketball player with more passion then most players in the game, but he hasn't been able to win big. He has done pretty well for being the only player on the team for six years (making the playoffs but losing right away), then he got players and got further, now this year shit went down and KG is getting a lot of heat for not at least making the playoffs. The thing is though, if KG played with Kobe or Wade, you can count your silver dollars that they would be a title contender every year, just like Shaq and those two were.


You mentioned Shaq wasn't successful untill he met up with Kobe. I was just wanting clarification on what you meant by not successful. Nothing personal Homer. ;)

WHy would Jackson want back with Kobe? Kobe's the GM like Chuck said.

[YOUR Hero]

That's a lot of words posted there BCWWF. Doesn't make your arguement better.

I suppose with the Lakers missing the playoffs and if the Heat happen to win the championship with Shaq say winning the MVP, it still means nothing...right?

[PureHatred]

Everything that happened this year may have been related to Kobe being a prima donna and Buss not having guts, but look at it. In the end, that was a horrible trade for the Lakers. They didn't get screwed out of a great player by any means, it was an even trade, they just didn't get the players to help them. Butler plays the same position as Kobe, Lamar doesn't fit their system at all, and Brian Grant The problem with the Lakers all year is that they don't have the big man.

That statement makes no sense whatsoever. They "didn't get screwed out of a great player, it was an even trade, they just didn't get the players to help them." How is it an even trade if they didn't get the players to help them???? "The problem with the Lakers all year is that they don't have the big men." Damn..too bad they traded away the single most dominant center in the NBA. He might've been useful. :roll:

You're basically trying to justify the Lakers' stupidity by downgrading Shaq and what he means to a team. Get your head out of your ass. you can't ignore his numbers. You can't ignore the fact that he's won everywhere he's gone or the three NBA Finals MVP's or the MVP he's probably going to win this year. You can't ignore the guys who know more than you could ever hope to know about basketball --the writers, the players like Barkley & Magic, the analysts, the GMs like Jerry West and Pat Riley, the coaches like Larry Brown--all these people who say the same thing: Shaquille O'Neal is the most dominant player in the NBA and trading him away was an epic mistake.

Shaq wanted a three year extension. Give it to him. They could've re-signed him, got rid of Kobe (which would've made Shaq's attitude improve 110% I'm sure), and if this had happened early enough in free agency, made real runs at guys like Carlos Arroyo, Steve Nash, Brent Barry, Kenyon Martin, Darius Songaila, Hedo Turkoglu, Keon Clark or many others. Hell, you could've signed Clark, Arroyo, Songaila, AND Barry for what Kobe ended up getting.

And that doesn't even begin to take into account how much better their cap situation would've been if Shaq had stayed. especially with guys like Ray Allen and Michael Redd coming free this season.

Long term or short term, the Lakers should've kept Shaquille O'Neal.

[PureHatred]

BTW that "young talented Miami Heat team" you talked about that Shaq stepped into:

2003-04 Roster

Malik Allen
Rafer Alston
Jerome Beasley
Caron Butler
Rasual butler
Bimbo Coles
Brian Grant
Udonis Haslem
Eddie Jones
Lamar Odom
Dwayne Wade
Samaki Walker
John Wallace
Loren Woods
Wang Zhi-zhi

Here's this year's roster:

Shandon Anderson
Rasual Butler
Michael Doleac
Keyon Dooling
Udonis Haslem
Damon Jones
Eddie Jones
Christian Laettner
Alonzo Mourning
Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Smith
Dwyane Wade
Wang Zhizhi
Qyntel Woods
Dorell Wright

That is nowhere near the team from last year.

The Heat traded the core of their team from last year. There are five guys on the team form last year. And if you think that its a coincedence that Haslem and Wade stepped up their game with Shaq in Miami, you know nothing about basketball. he makes their life easier. Actualy, looking at that roster, the Heat kept Wade, kept Jones ( a10 year vet, BTW, not 'young' by any means), added Shaq and then filled in their roster with role players and journey men. Yet, somehow, they're going into the playoffs as the favorites to come out of the East. :roll:

Only you and maybe Jerry Buss aren't seeing the connection at this point.

[Lotus]

Shaq would have led the Lakers to the playoffs without Kobe for sure. Shaq could lead the fuckin Hawks (my boys) to the playoffs. You don't understand how much of a presence he is.

[BCWWF]

That's a lot of words posted there BCWWF. Doesn't make your arguement better.

I suppose with the Lakers missing the playoffs and if the Heat happen to win the championship with Shaq say winning the MVP, it still means nothing...right?
Would the Lakers be winning the championship and Shaq be MVP if he stayed there and Kobe signed with the Clippers? I think not, and that is the whole point if you'd care to address it.

[BCWWF]

That statement makes no sense whatsoever. They "didn't get screwed out of a great player, it was an even trade, they just didn't get the players to help them." How is it an even trade if they didn't get the players to help them???? "The problem with the Lakers all year is that they don't have the big men." Damn..too bad they traded away the single most dominant center in the NBA. He might've been useful. :roll:
It is an even trade because they got good players for him. Its not like trading TO for a second round draft pick. It just turns out that the players weren't ones that could help them. Its not an unfair trade because Butler and Odom still have trade value to bring in talent that can help them next year.


You're basically trying to justify the Lakers' stupidity by downgrading Shaq and what he means to a team. Get your head out of your ass. you can't ignore his numbers. You can't ignore the fact that he's won everywhere he's gone or the three NBA Finals MVP's or the MVP he's probably going to win this year. You can't ignore the guys who know more than you could ever hope to know about basketball --the writers, the players like Barkley & Magic, the analysts, the GMs like Jerry West and Pat Riley, the coaches like Larry Brown--all these people who say the same thing: Shaquille O'Neal is the most dominant player in the NBA and trading him away was an epic mistake.
I'm not justifying anything, I am saying that the Lakers and Heat are completely different teams. Shaq is a great player playing on a great team, Kobe is a great player playing on a bad team.

I NEVER SAID THAT TRADING SHAQ WAS A SMART DECISION. Can you quote where I said that please? CAN YOU QUOTE WHERE I SAID THAT SHAQ WAS NOT VALUBLE AND NOT A GOOD PLAYER? Didn't think so. I said that you can't compare his success to Kobe's success because they play on completely different teams in different conferences. I don't think that the Lakers should have resorted to letting Shaq demand a trade, but when it came down to one of the other, I CAN SEE HOW THEY CHOOSE KOBE, BUT I DON'T NECCESSARILY AGREE WITH IT. Thats not the point though, the point is that their seasons are not comparable in any way this year.

Shaq wanted a three year extension. Give it to him. They could've re-signed him, got rid of Kobe (which would've made Shaq's attitude improve 110% I'm sure), and if this had happened early enough in free agency, made real runs at guys like Carlos Arroyo, Steve Nash, Brent Barry, Kenyon Martin, Darius Songaila, Hedo Turkoglu, Keon Clark or many others. Hell, you could've signed Clark, Arroyo, Songaila, AND Barry for what Kobe ended up getting.
Arroyo wasn't a free agent, and the only guy there who would have kept the Lakers in contention for the title would have been Nash, and if they signed him they wouldn't have enough money to sign much else. You can say that those four SHITTY players could have been signed for the price of Kobe, but besides not making their team much better, it would have put their roster up to like 15 guys AND put them miles over the cap. There was money involved you know, it wasn't purely because Kobe and Shaq no longer wanted to play together. And FINALLY, by the time all of this went though, most of the FA's were already signed.

And that doesn't even begin to take into account how much better their cap situation would've been if Shaq had stayed. especially with guys like Ray Allen and Michael Redd coming free this season.
Thats the whole point, they didn't have the cap room for two superstars after Shaq was going to demand top dollar. Nothing against Shaq, he deserves it as much as anybody, but if Shaq is getting almost 30 mil you aren't going to have the funds to sign Ray Allen.

Long term or short term, the Lakers should've kept Shaquille O'Neal.
I agree with you, but just hear me out. If they had kept Shaquile, do you honestly think they would have contended for a title this season? MAYBE next season or the season after, but this season the Lakers just didn't have great players, its that simple. Maybe next year they have the room to fill their roster, but the options just weren't available last year.

FINALLY, the talk is...The Lakers are going to make a push for Yao now, and adding Yao to Kobe and Chucky would immediately put them back in the playoffs. We'll see what T-Mac has to say about that, but in the next 10-12 years that Kobe plays in the league, you can assume that the Lakers will sign a big man good enough to compliment Kobe.

[BCWWF]

BTW that "young talented Miami Heat team" you talked about that Shaq stepped into:

2003-04 Roster

Malik Allen
Rafer Alston
Jerome Beasley
Caron Butler
Rasual butler
Bimbo Coles
Brian Grant
Udonis Haslem
Eddie Jones
Lamar Odom
Dwayne Wade
Samaki Walker
John Wallace
Loren Woods
Wang Zhi-zhi

Here's this year's roster:

Shandon Anderson
Rasual Butler
Michael Doleac
Keyon Dooling
Udonis Haslem
Damon Jones
Eddie Jones
Christian Laettner
Alonzo Mourning
Shaquille O'Neal
Steve Smith
Dwyane Wade
Wang Zhizhi
Qyntel Woods
Dorell Wright

That is nowhere near the team from last year.
Are you a genius or what? Its a completely different team because they traded three key players to get Shaq!

The Heat traded the core of their team from last year. There are five guys on the team form last year.
And look who they are...Dwayne Wade, Eddie Jones, Udonis Haslem, Bimbo Coles :p (I had to say his name)

Their three most important players (Technically Odom was more important last year, but meh)

And if you think that its a coincedence that Haslem and Wade stepped up their game with Shaq in Miami, you know nothing about basketball. he makes their life easier. Actualy, looking at that roster, the Heat kept Wade, kept Jones ( a10 year vet, BTW, not 'young' by any means), added Shaq and then filled in their roster with role players and journey men. Yet, somehow, they're going into the playoffs as the favorites to come out of the East. :roll:
1. I specifically referred to Eddie Jones as an established veteran.

2. I specifically stated many times that Shaq made the Heat a better team this year

3. The Heat were one of the top teams in the East last season with Haslem, Wade, Odom, and Butler all being pretty young.



Only you and maybe Jerry Buss aren't seeing the connection at this point.
Again, I don't know where you got completely off the point. I forgot that this thread was about how good of a trade the Lakers made and how overrated Shaq was :roll:

[PureHatred]

Would the Lakers be winning the championship and Shaq be MVP if he stayed there and Kobe signed with the Clippers? I think not, and that is the whole point if you'd care to address it.

The Lakers would be far closer to a title than they are now or are going to be in the next three years.

[BCWWF]

OK, to the people arguing with me...PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS DIRECTLY AND HONESTLY. They aren't trick questions or anything, just basic questions, partly because people have completely changed the angle of this topic and partly because there seems to be confusion about what I am trying to say. SO PLEASE ANSWER THEM.

1. If the Lakers didn't resign Kobe, Malone came back for the second half of the season, and the rest of the roster was similar to the one I posted in the first post, where would the Lakers finish in the West? (Don't mention who the Lakers may have signed, because it is beyond the point and pure speculation)


2. Where would the Miami Heat of this season finish if they were competing in the Western Conference?


3. Where would the L.A. Lakers finish in the Eastern Conference (Assuming the Heat are still first seed)


4. If the Shaq trade was Shaq for Baron Davis, PJ Brown, and Jamal Magliore, would Shaq have accepted the trade?


4a. If so, where would the Hornets have finished in the Western Conference?


5. Scenario: Shaq gets traded to the Hornets in the trade from #4, Kobe signs with the Clippers. Hornets win 20 games and end near the bottom of the West, but Shaq averages 30 points a game, 12 rebounds, 2.5 blocks. Clippers make the playoffs as a 6 or 7 seed, Kobe averages 26 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists. Can you compare the two seasons?


5a. In comparing the seasons, was Shaq a failure for putting up good numbers and helping the Hornets to win more games then they are likely to this season? Was Kobe a success for putting the Clippers over the edge and finally getting them into the playoffs, despite having his numbers slightly down?




Please, no bullshit. Don't answer the questions with scenarios and what ifs, just straight up. I will answer them aswell to show you what I think, but don't make this into an attack on me instead of just simply and directly answering these questions. Thank you.

[BCWWF]

1. This is how I see the West finishing: Phoenix, San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, Sacramento, Nuggets, Lakers, Grizzlies. (Give or take the Nuggets)


2. I would Miami would finish in between Sacramento and Houston.


3. The East looks like this: Miami, Detroit, Boston, Chicago, Indiana, Washington, Cleveland, Philadelphia. If Kobe's Lakers were competing in the East this season, I think they would finish probably just below Washington.



4. If the Shaq trade was Shaq for Baron Davis, PJ Brown, and Jamal Magliore, would Shaq have accepted the trade?
I don't think he would have.

4a. If so, where would the Hornets have finished in the Western Conference?
The Hornets without their three best players but with Shaq, I would say they still finish near the bottom three in the West.

5. Scenario: Shaq gets traded to the Hornets in the trade from #4, Kobe signs with the Clippers. Hornets win 20 games and end near the bottom of the West, but Shaq averages 30 points a game, 12 rebounds, 2.5 blocks. Clippers make the playoffs as a 6 or 7 seed, Kobe averages 26 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists. Can you compare the two seasons?
I don't think you can compare these seasons, because they are completely different scenarios. For what Shaq would have with him on the Hornets, 20 wins would be very impressive, but the Clippers getting a 6 seed in the playoffs would also be very impressive.



5a. In comparing the seasons, was Shaq a failure for putting up good numbers and helping the Hornets to win more games then they are likely to this season? Was Kobe a success for putting the Clippers over the edge and finally getting them into the playoffs, despite having his numbers slightly down?
I don't think Shaq was a failure because he was playing on a team of shit and still managed to win 20 games and put up good numbers. Kobe had a successful year because he put up good numbers and put the Clippers over the edge.

[YOUR Hero]

senario senario senerio

Shaq's a lot better than you want to admit. End of story.

[BCWWF]

Senario?

When did I ever say that Shaq was bad? I said he was on a good team and Kobe was not, not answer the questions or else I'm not going to keep responding to your little one liners.

[Apprentice]

I think BCWWF makes some good points. I still think the Lakers would have been better off in the short run with Shaq but who knows where they would be in 3 years.

I stil think the current Lakers get a bad rap too. Remember that Lakers were fully entrenched at #6 when Kobe got hurt, Rudy T resigned and then Odom got hurt a month or so later. This is not to mention that Vlade(their supposed starting center) and Devean George(their 6th man) were out for over 60 games. I'm not saying they would have been better than Miami but I think they would have at least made the playoffs.

[BCWWF]

I think BCWWF makes some good points. I still think the Lakers would have been better off in the short run with Shaq but who knows where they would be in 3 years.
I would say that in three years the Lakers would probably still be better off with Shaq, but its in six or seven years that is when Kobe will come into play.

[The Outlaw]

Dunno, I think I like Hero's one liners better.

[PureHatred]

I would say that in three years the Lakers would probably still be better off with Shaq, but its in six or seven years that is when Kobe will come into play.

Well that's great. Way to dismantle a dynasty in order to be set in the year 2013. :roll: Genius.

[The Icon of Elisim]

Okay heres how I see it

Shaq and Kobe are both stars

Basketball is a team sport

Shaq understands this and succeeds in being a great player that makes players around him better

Kobe does not succeed in doing this (proven by the fact that he has good players around him in LA but is unable to win)

I dunno, maybe I am missing your point

[BCWWF]

You are completely right except for saying that Kobe has good players around him. Before I get into that though, let me go deeper into your first comment.


Shaq understands this and succeeds in being a great player that makes players around him better
You are completely right, but for more reason then you are giving. Shaq does understand that it takes team success, which is why when it became obvious that the Lakers were on the decline, he moved away to a team on the incline that would be a title contender as soon as they got him. Kobe thought that he could still do it without a team and failed in most people here's definition of it. Shaq knew where the gold was and went and got it while Kobe thought he could make gold out of iron. Shaq understands that even he can't win by himself, Kobe didn't before this season, but everybody here still thinks that Shaq could win playing with the squad from Savannah State.

If you watched the Lakers this year, there was no doubt that Kobe made the players around him better. Chris Mihm, Chucky Atkins, they both had really good years (on their terms) because of Kobe Bryant (I can explain if you don't understand how Kobe can make others better). At the same time, Kobe isn't capable of having the same effect as Shaq, but I don't think anybody is. So Kobe made a bunch of average guys slightly above average, Shaq made some really good guys great. Kobe couldn't make this team into a title contender, but if you replaced him with Ray Allen even, I don't think they would have been as good. I use Ray Allen because he is a great player, on the same level as Kobe, but by driving like he does Kobe opens up the game for his teammates a lot. Granted not as much as Nash or Kidd or one of those top PG's, but he still makes them better, he just can't make them into all-stars when they aren't.

The thing about having good players doesn't mean much, with a great example being the USA Olympic squad. There is no doubt in the world that they had the most talented squad there, but they didn't have the right players. That is how the Lakers are, they have a team with some talent (Odom, Butler, Atkins, Jumaine etc), but they don't have the right players to win. You can't win with an abundance of wings and no center, just like you can't win with a great center and no shooters (Team USA).


Now please answer the questions to the people who keep posting, is there a reason that everybody has alluded to it to this point?

[BCWWF]

:roll:

[The Outlaw]

I take it you are rolling your eyes at your own post.

[The Icon of Elisim]

I think he is rolling his eyes because he doesn't understand that no one cares enough to read his long post on a discussion that isn't very interesting and doesn't really make much sense from any standpoint

Or maybe he's trying to evoke sarcasm

[The Outlaw]

I think he is rolling his eyes because he doesn't understand that no one cares enough to read his long post on a discussion that isn't very interesting and doesn't really make much sense from any standpoint

Or maybe he's trying to evoke sarcasm
Perhaps you are right Mr. Slushee.

[BCWWF]

Perhaps I asked you to answer 5 simple questions and you keep refusing to for whatever reason

[BCWWF]

1. If the Lakers didn't resign Kobe, Malone came back for the second half of the season, and the rest of the roster was similar to the one I posted in the first post, where would the Lakers finish in the West? (Don't mention who the Lakers may have signed, because it is beyond the point and pure speculation)


2. Where would the Miami Heat of this season finish if they were competing in the Western Conference?


3. Where would the L.A. Lakers finish in the Eastern Conference (Assuming the Heat are still first seed)


4. If the Shaq trade was Shaq for Baron Davis, PJ Brown, and Jamal Magliore, would Shaq have accepted the trade?


4a. If so, where would the Hornets have finished in the Western Conference?


5. Scenario: Shaq gets traded to the Hornets in the trade from #4, Kobe signs with the Clippers. Hornets win 20 games and end near the bottom of the West, but Shaq averages 30 points a game, 12 rebounds, 2.5 blocks. Clippers make the playoffs as a 6 or 7 seed, Kobe averages 26 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists. Can you compare the two seasons?


5a. In comparing the seasons, was Shaq a failure for putting up good numbers and helping the Hornets to win more games then they are likely to this season? Was Kobe a success for putting the Clippers over the edge and finally getting them into the playoffs, despite having his numbers slightly down?

[The Outlaw]

I think he is rolling his eyes because he doesn't understand that no one cares enough to read his long post on a discussion that isn't very interesting and doesn't really make much sense from any standpoint


That is the reason I, and noone else, are answering the questions sir, but if I must.

1. If the Lakers didn't resign Kobe, Malone came back for the second half of the season, and the rest of the roster was similar to the one I posted in the first post, where would the Lakers finish in the West? (Don't mention who the Lakers may have signed, because it is beyond the point and pure speculation)

That is not a viable question because they would have signed someone (Probably more than one) if Kobe's bitch ass left. You listed this roster:

Lakers:
C Shaq
F Medvedenko
F Jumaine Jones
G Deavan George
G Chucky Atkins
Bench: Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, Vlade Divacs, Tierre Brown, Sasha Vujacic.

You are seriously wanting me to say how they would do without considering how much $$$ they could spend on a top tier player/some role players? Get out of my face with that bunk. The fact is, Shaq is one of the most liked guys around the league. I don't care if he has a huge ego. I don't care if he likes money. He makes everybody a better player. He gets other guys involved. He MAKES guys stars. He gets them contracts single handedly. See Derek Fisher/Tyron Lue/many others


2. Where would the Miami Heat of this season finish if they were competing in the Western Conference?

Shaq + DWade + Eddie Jones + Udonis Haslem + Damon Jones > Most.


3. Where would the L.A. Lakers finish in the Eastern Conference (Assuming the Heat are still first seed)


Moot point. WHy is this even a question? Some serious reaching going on here.

4. If the Shaq trade was Shaq for Baron Davis, PJ Brown, and Jamal Magliore, would Shaq have accepted the trade?

...Do I look like I am 7'1" 325 pounds? I don't fucking know if he would or not.


4a. If so, where would the Hornets have finished in the Western Conference?

Well, he would still have Jr. Smith, Dan Dickau, Lee Nailon, and even Chris Anderson. They would then add Shaq, which would make team morale go up, plus these guys aren't terrible or anything. Do I think they would win the title? Of course not. Are you wanting me to say they would be terrible? Because I seriously don't know why you are asking these questions. I think they would be doing better than the Lakers. Shaq is a proven winner son, get off of his nuts. He went 42-42 with his best player being Nick Anderson.


5. Scenario: Shaq gets traded to the Hornets in the trade from #4, Kobe signs with the Clippers. Hornets win 20 games and end near the bottom of the West, but Shaq averages 30 points a game, 12 rebounds, 2.5 blocks. Clippers make the playoffs as a 6 or 7 seed, Kobe averages 26 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists. Can you compare the two seasons?

See TIOE's post. I seriously don't know why you're so hard up on Kobe's cock and wanting him to bend you over. You also fail to realize that the Clipper's management don't give a flying fuck about their team.


5a. In comparing the seasons, was Shaq a failure for putting up good numbers and helping the Hornets to win more games then they are likely to this season? Was Kobe a success for putting the Clippers over the edge and finally getting them into the playoffs, despite having his numbers slightly down?

I will answer this question by stating the obvious, Shaq > Kobe

[PureHatred]

Perhaps I asked you to answer 5 simple questions and you keep refusing to for whatever reason

Despite the fact that Outlaw answered your questions, you've still lost all perspective because of your bizarre infatuation with Kobe Bryant.

Every one one of those questions involves some bizree "what-if" scenario that has no basis in what is actually happening or did happen in the NBA. The Charlotte thing is retarded because the LaKers from the beginning said they weren't trading Shaq to a team in the West and Shaq, who had partial approval on all trades, made it clear if he was going to an Eastern Conference team, he wanted to be in Florida. And considering his past with Orlando, it was always going to be Miami or nothing.

All this blather you've posted basically comes down to one question: would the Lakers have been better off with Shaq over Kobe. Answer: Yes.

Why? I'm a firm believer in the win now mentality. If you think you have a shot at a title NOW, then you do everything you can to wina title NOW. As a Laker fan, would I trade a chance at the title for the next three years for the knowledge that Kobe will be around in 2010. You're god damned right.

[BCWWF]

Outlaw didn't even answer half the questions, and his main point was that the Lakers would have brought it people with all the money they saved, but unless you are retarded you would have known that the Lakers wouldn't have had the money, which is the reason that they said one or the other, and then Shaq said keep Kobe I'm out of here.

I don't know how you guys are all calling me dilusional. I'm not riding Kobe's cock, I am just saying that he isn't a complete failure just because Shaq flourished and he didn't. They are in two completely different situations.

Those questions were put out point out how different their situations are, and how each would perform in a different situation. The fact that the only person who answered the questions dodged specifics in every answer proves that I have a point. Just because Shaq is great doesn't mean that Kobe is awful.

[The Outlaw]

Did anyone say he was awful? No. He's got great skills. Noone has denied that. The fact that he chased away a winning formula makes him not a team player and/or a bitch ass. Oh right, if the Lakers would have kept Shaq and let Kobe go, they wouldn't have any money. Yeah, great point there.

[BCWWF]

I didn't say that at all, and you guys haven't been saying that at all, and neither have the talking heads on ESPN, and that is why I made the thread to begin with.

[BCWWF]

According to Sports Center, Phil Jackson has been meeting with Mitch Kupcheck and has a meeting with Kobe this week, and that the Lakers are the only real option for him.

Things like this are what make me skeptical about the whole "Kobe ran everybody out of town" thing. If he was really as bad as he was being made out to be, why would Phil even consider coming back? In my book, the Lakers couldn't keep Kobe and Shaq and they choose Kobe. In my opinion, thats a lot more realistic then Kobe saying "I don't want to play with Shaq, I don't want Phil to be my coach, and I don't want to have any other good players on my team."