Technical Wrestling

[TW Mangrove]

whatever happened to it? I mean now days we have crap like JBL, John Cena, HHH, Batista in the main event. ANd the new guys who are brought in are crap, look at those retards, no technical ability at all. Remember the good old days when Bret Hart wrestled HBK in an iron man match? or when Savage and steamboat had their classic at WM III? i miss those days. But I blame the fans, wrestling got shit with the likes of foley and stone cold and that whole WWF attitude days. Ric Flair was right about foley and he is 1000 times better than foley. I miss the old days but you idiot newbie fans having ruined the product. You can take your John Cena wigger crap and shove it.

[Loose Cannon]

What are you talking about? Technical wrestling has taken a back side to pople like Hogan/Bundy/Piper/Andre/Taker/Yoko/Luger/Diesal/Vader/Giant/Batista etc etc etc for years. What old days?

I bet you like Ring of Honor.

[TW Mangrove]

Yeah the WWF was more show, I was talking more about the old NWA and AWA, although there was some crap in there too but the matches were better.

[Loose Cannon]

You mentioned two WWF matches . How is that AWA/NWA?

[jerichoholic169]

you watched any WWE recently?? Kirk Angel, Eddie, Rey, Y2J, Captain fucking' Charisma, Benoit all mix it up pretty well in the ring.

[TW Mangrove]

You mentioned two WWF matches . How is that AWA/NWA?


I was giving an example of decent WWF matches. But as I whole I think that tha NWA and AWA had way better matches. I think I'm a little pissed at John Cena being champ too, he sucks, his gimmick is shit and I don't know why people cheer his wigger garbage.

[Cactus Sid]

whatever happened to it? I mean now days we have crap like JBL, John Cena, HHH, Batista in the main event. ANd the new guys who are brought in are crap, look at those retards, no technical ability at all. Remember the good old days when Bret Hart wrestled HBK in an iron man match? or when Savage and steamboat had their classic at WM III? i miss those days. But I blame the fans, wrestling got shit with the likes of foley and stone cold and that whole WWF attitude days. Ric Flair was right about foley and he is 1000 times better than foley. I miss the old days but you idiot newbie fans having ruined the product. You can take your John Cena wigger crap and shove it.

I think you forget that the WWE is all about catering for all types of fans and all types of wrestling.

Did you see Smackdown last week? The WWE gave the public Guerrero and Angle, and they gave a great technical display.

What I think you forget is that while Savage and Steamboat were out having their classic, the people came to watch Hogan vs Andre, you get the best of both worlds. In all honesty, if you headlined a show with Guerrero vs Angle with an undercard stuff full of equally good technical matches, there wouldn't be nearly as much build for the match, as you'd have seen everything already.

As for saying Austin and Foley are to blame for wrestling getting shit, your a complete moron. Austin put on technical classics with plenty of people while he was in the WWE, he wasn't a one dimensional brawler the whole time, and quite frankly he wouldn't have sold as many tickets if people didn't believe he was gonna have a good match. As for Foley, hey, each to his own, but I would honestly take watching the Streetfight he had with Triple H in MSG at the Royal Rumble over pretty much any match, because it had everything. Techincal wrestling isn't just about the wrestling, its about the psychology put into the match to get the crowd involved, and lets face it, very few got people into a match more than Austin, Rock or Foley and guess what...they aren't "Technical" wrestlers.

I don't quite understand why its the "newbie" fans fault. I would wager that the WWE has put on more sterling technical classics since 1998 than between Wrestlemania III and XII.

Don't forget, the fans pay to watch PPV's for the matches, not for who is on them, so at the end of the day its down to the WWE to put these matches on the table, not the fans.

If you want to watch 4 hours of technical wrestling, go and watch Ring Of Honor.

[Fignuts]

I'd rather have a mixture of styles, than all technical wrestlers. A brawler can have a phenomenal match as long as he knows storytelling and ring psychology.

[Zen v.W.o.]

ROH isnt all technical wrestling. It can be like watching fancy ballet. Nothing but guys trying to show off their athletic ability.

[wwe2222]

Before he hurt his neck, Austin could put on some terriffic technical matches. Plus, the stone cold character called for a little bit more of a brawler.

Like mentioned above, Foley had great psychology for his matches. Honestly, thats what makes the difference between a guy like foley and some of the other guys who just go out there try to brawl. There is no psychology to it, no real rhyme (sp?) or reason to their matches.

Plus nowadays you still have some good to great tech. wrestlers. You need a mix of both. While I am not a 'newbie' (ive watched wrestling since the mid 80s), I cant blame the new fans for ruining wrestling. Thats just wrong to say.

Besides, since the attitude era, we have been so saturated with wrestling every week you dont get the same buildup to matches cause fueds only last a couple weeks or so. Wrestlers get placed into short matches on a weekly basis, no time to really work out alot of chemistry.

[redoneja]

RoH can be like fancy ballet but then again so is lucha libre. RoH isn't just all technical wrestling, they've had Scramble Cage Matches and more than a few good brawls. As a WRESTLING mark(not a sports-entertainment mark mind you) I love a good technical match but like Mr Fignuts I prefer a mixture of styles.

[foodstampchamp]

I've always found that ROH provides a good mix of things. You have Hardcore Brawls, Spotty Scrambles, and Pure Wrestling classics. There is a huge difference between variety and putting trash like Heidenreich and Chris Masters on your screen. ROH proves that you can make match quality top notch and still have captivating storylines to keep the casual fan interested.

[Nark Order]

Trips does try to integrate some technical stuff into his matches nowadays. He's not too bad at it either...

[Kane Knight]

What are you talking about? Technical wrestling has taken a back side to pople like Hogan/Bundy/Piper/Andre/Taker/Yoko/Luger/Diesal/Vader/Giant/Batista etc etc etc for years. What old days?

I bet you like Ring of Honor.
Fuck you, you stupid mark! Hogan is one of the greatest technical wrestler sof all time!!!!!!!!!!

[Innovator]

RoH can be like fancy ballet but then again so is lucha libre. RoH isn't just all technical wrestling, they've had Scramble Cage Matches and more than a few good brawls. As a WRESTLING mark(not a sports-entertainment mark mind you) I love a good technical match but like Mr Fignuts I prefer a mixture of styles.yeah last thing I'd call Samoa Joe would be a technical wizard, but he can brawl like no other.

[jjmoney21]

Best technical, Angle, Eddie, Christian, Benoit, Jericho. All nowadays. Great wrestling. Just more drama thats about it.

[Dave Youell]

WWE > ROH

and I love ROH! But the guys on the WWE roster IF they were allowed to do all there stuff would piss all over the ROH roster, but as has alreadt been said, the masses don't want great technical matches all the time. They want the cheesy gimmicks that get over with catch lines, they love the soap aspect of it all. In some cases all they care about is the result and not the match at all. At least that's how i felt when i was a kid, I didn't pick apart matches, i just enjoyed watching them and wanted the face to win and I didn't care how

[McLegend]

Also Jerchio does not mix it up in the ring at all. He does the same moves everytime.

[Dave Youell]

Also Jerchio does not mix it up in the ring at all. He does the same moves everytime.
So does Benoit, HHH, RVD, Eddie G, Rey, The rest of the lockeroom

unless it's a special one off, like an actual decent PPVIt's done to work the crowd, They will cheers for moves they recognise. If a worker came out and did brand new moves each time with a different finisher I think they would have a really touch time getting over with the crowd

[Kane Knight]

Also Jerchio does not mix it up in the ring at all. He does the same moves everytime.
Currently.

After he's been watered down. Even his finisher is nothing like it used to be.

[Disturbed316]

ROH is for child molesters. I bet Michael Jackson watches it.

[Loose Cannon]

Yea, Jericho has been about as watered down as you can get. He just flounders around week after week doing nothing really.

[Londoner]

Sadly, that is very true. I wonder if Y2J is heading to Smackdown,hopefully he will be allowed more moves on there.It's dumb though, if your not gonna allow them to do there proper moves, then like ive said before, don't run a fucking wrestling show.

[Kane Knight]

Sadly, that is very true. I wonder if Y2J is heading to Smackdown,hopefully he will be allowed more moves on there.It's dumb though, if your not gonna allow them to do there proper moves, then like ive said before, don't run a fucking wrestling show.
Theodore Long: Now, I hear you like to work a solid match. Around here, you only get 7 moves per match.

Jericho: Woohoo! Upgrade!

[Londoner]

Lmao...

[Crashnburn]

Sadly, that is very true. I wonder if Y2J is heading to Smackdown,hopefully he will be allowed more moves on there.It's dumb though, if your not gonna allow them to do there proper moves, then like ive said before, don't run a fucking wrestling show.

Found this on another site and thought you might be interested.

[Source: PWTorch]

"-- Chris Jericho, who has become even more outspoken than ever about WWE, may not renew his contract. His deal with the company ends late this year, and he has been very open about his frustrations. A source close to Jericho backstage, says that he is stale and knows it, but is frustrated that he isn’t given more attention from the creative staff.

The creative team, of about 8 or 9 members, feels that it’s not worth heavily investing any time in him until he renews his contract. This means that Jericho isn’t a top candidate to be moved to Smackdown in the upcoming draft, and given a renewed push."

[redoneja]

Roh Wrestling > WWE Wrestling
But like Youell said, if WWE guys had the opportunity they would wipe the floor with (most) of RoH. But then again most of the RoH roster is very young, whereas the WWE Roster is comprised of vets. I would love to see American Dragon v Chris Beniot, or Christopher Daniels v Kurt Angle

Its probably pretty obvious that I mark out for RoH, isn't it

[Dave Youell]

Roh Wrestling > WWE Wrestling

:y:

[The Highlander]

Best technical, Angle, Eddie, Christian, Benoit, Jericho. All nowadays.
Bret owns them all.

As much a technical wrestling fan as I am (My favorate wrestler of all time is Bret Hart, and my favorite currents are Benoit {Raw} and Angle {Smackdown}), even I would get bored having nothing but technical matches on the shows. For every Benoit, you need a Stone Cold, for every Christian, a Mysterio, for every Angle, a Eugene, for every Eddie, a Kane. For every Triple H, you need a Chris Masters, then you take Triple H and Chris Masters and chuck them both out the window because they suck.

[Dave Youell]

I respect Bret, but if you want to talk about repetitive, he takes the cake, every match he had for 3 years finished the same way.

Forearm from the second rope
Maybe throw in a bulldog
Atomic Drop
Sharpshooter

At least with the current watered down repetitive matches they can use a different comination to get to that finisher Bret didn't, I know the guy was decent and i'm going to get flamed to hell, but he wasn't any different from the current batch or workers everyone is currently complaining about.

yes the same rules still apply that if he was allowed to do more he probably could, but he didn't/wasn't allowed to, so he goes in the same bucket as everyone else IMO

[The Gooch]

Nostalgia distorts reality. What made Savage vs. Steamboat great was not the technical wrestling, it was that it was fucking dramatic. Psychology is what is needed most. One of my favourite matches of recent years was Flair vs. Triple H a couple years ago on RAW. Flair is old, but the psychology of the match led me to believe he had a chance to win. Rationally he didn't stand a chance, but both he and Hunter played their respective roles amazingly and had me at the edge of my seat.

[BigDaddyCool]

Pure techincal wrestling is boring and for faggots. Who wants to watch to sweaty guy in underwear roll around on the match panting and huffing away to pin the other? You want techincal wrestling go watch some ameture wrestling.

Next your are going to be talking about how you preffer snuff films, you sicken me.

[BigDaddyCool]

btw, it isn't always the wrestlers' fault the matches aren't techincal masterpieces. There are time limits on Raw and Smackdown that have to put up with.

[Fignuts]

And if you want to see two guys brawl for 20 minutes, then just go to your local crackhouse, and throw a fiver between two addicts. Of course they would only go five minutes because they would both tear their quads and be out for six months.

[Kane Knight]

Pure techincal wrestling is boring and for faggots. Who wants to watch to sweaty guy in underwear roll around on the match panting and huffing away to pin the other? You want techincal wrestling go watch some ameture wrestling.

Next your are going to be talking about how you preffer snuff films, you sicken me.
Yeah, you just want to see them grab each other while standing. :|

[Londoner]

Found this on another site and thought you might be interested.

[Source: PWTorch]

"-- Chris Jericho, who has become even more outspoken than ever about WWE, may not renew his contract. His deal with the company ends late this year, and he has been very open about his frustrations. A source close to Jericho backstage, says that he is stale and knows it, but is frustrated that he isn’t given more attention from the creative staff.

The creative team, of about 8 or 9 members, feels that it’s not worth heavily investing any time in him until he renews his contract. This means that Jericho isn’t a top candidate to be moved to Smackdown in the upcoming draft, and given a renewed push."


Fuck man that sucks, but i think the key part there is where it says '8 or 9 members' , if your a creative team you don't need that many 'creative' members, because that shows your not very creative by having so many. And is why Jericho is being held down so much.

And thats a bollocks excuse they gave, they've had about 4 years since his title run to invest in him, and he would've boosted the ratings i guarantee you, but what the fuck have they done?Fuck all. WWE give such shitty excuses, if he does renew i don't think he wont be involved much.

[The Gooch]

Fuck man that sucks, but i think the key part there is where it says '8 or 9 members' , if your a creative team you don't need that many 'creative' members, because that shows your not very creative by having so many. And is why Jericho is being held down so much.

And thats a bollocks excuse they gave, they've had about 4 years since his title run to invest in him, and he would've boosted the ratings i guarantee you, but what the fuck have they done?Fuck all. WWE give such shitty excuses, if he does renew i don't think he wont be involved much.

Jericho continues to be the biggest waste of talent ever by the WWE in my opinion. I will always believe that he had his push cut from underneath him. Not mentioning names, but I think you all know who I'm talking about. I can't prove it, but call it a gut feel. It boggles my mind why they don't just send him to Smackdown where he can be a top guy. Perhaps this will happen in the draft.

I'm glad he has the guts to voice his displeasure. Unfortunately this may not be a very smart business decision. Ask RVD.

[Kane Knight]

Fuck man that sucks, but i think the key part there is where it says '8 or 9 members' , if your a creative team you don't need that many 'creative' members, because that shows your not very creative by having so many. And is why Jericho is being held down so much.
Bull.

More members doesn't make for less creativity. Lack of a spine does (The WWE's problem). Having 8 or 9 different people toss out ideas is a GOOD thing.

[Just John]

Why does this sound like a thread I would make?

I mean aren't I the one who always complains about John Cena and how the attitude era was soo much better?

[Londoner]

Bull.

More members doesn't make for less creativity. Lack of a spine does (The WWE's problem). Having 8 or 9 different people toss out ideas is a GOOD thing.


I disagree, surely if it only comes from one or two people, and then Vince, like it used to be, then we would have far better shows? Having so many members=more politics + more people who know nothing about the wrestling buisness. Besides, it takes alot longer to get through 8 or 9 ideas, therefore increasing the chance of a poor show.

[DaveWadding]

Roh Wrestling > WWE Wrestling
But like Youell said, if WWE guys had the opportunity they would wipe the floor with (most) of RoH. But then again most of the RoH roster is very young, whereas the WWE Roster is comprised of vets. I would love to see American Dragon v Chris Beniot, or Christopher Daniels v Kurt Angle

Its probably pretty obvious that I mark out for RoH, isn't it
Daniels/Angle happened once before already :p

[Kane Knight]

I disagree, surely if it only comes from one or two people, and then Vince, like it used to be, then we would have far better shows? Having so many members=more politics + more people who know nothing about the wrestling buisness. Besides, it takes alot longer to get through 8 or 9 ideas, therefore increasing the chance of a poor show.
No, coming from a single brain makes for worse shows.

The problem with the creative team is that they're yesmen. You're still primarily getting ideas from one or two people. Which by your reckoning should be better quality.

Also, having more people =/= more people who know nothing about the wrestling business. Poor hiring process=more people who know nothing about the wrestling business.

[Dave Youell]

IMO having a booking team larger than 4 isn't a good idea. Personally i'd prefer just 1 or 2, mainly because the more people you have the more politics you have to deal with. 2 writers and 1 main decision maker like it used would be my prefer option, granted it was Russo, but with Vince having the final say I think it worked

[Londoner]

^Thank you. I agree..when WWE was successful, i don't think they had that many people on the creative team. Correct me if i'm wrong here...

[Kane Knight]

^Thank you. I agree..when WWE was successful, i don't think they had that many people on the creative team. Correct me if i'm wrong here...
Dude, the guy agreeing with you thinks Hogan's still a draw. Think about this for a second.

[Londoner]

That's his opinion,and we'll see if he's right when the number of buys for the Backlash PPV comes up, but i heard that when the creative team didn't have many members there were better shows in WWE, and that was in the attitude era.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Dave, I don't get how you could fault Hart for being repetitive. He had the best timing like ever.

[Kane Knight]

That's his opinion,and we'll see if he's right when the number of buys for the Backlash PPV comes up, but i heard that when the creative team didn't have many members there were better shows in WWE, and that was in the attitude era.
Except that's only one factor in determining the effects.

"I had waffles for breakfast yeserday, and it was sunny. I had toast for breakfast today and it rained. Eating toast causes rain."

"Only sick people take medicine. If I don't take my medicine, I'm not sick."

Oops! There I go being realistic again.

If there was a smaller creative team, things like the Necrophillia angle would still happen, since Vince pushed it. Since the guy writing things like Cena's "poopy" cracks is one of Vince's favorite writers, we'd still end up with him writing that stuff. And saying that there were better ratings when the team was small has less to do with it than the actual happenings.

More likely, the Attitude era was better because there was competition, and the company wasn't entirely ego driven (Which has happened not because the creative team is big, but because the wrong kind of people are given input), and because there was quite a bit of booking for the fans.

You're looking at a single aspect and not the related aspects. The Attitude era was not the result of "smallers teams=better." You're looking at this from the wrong angle.

Oh, and Hogan's last couple of runs failed to produce ratings. What makes you think this one suddenly magically has a chance of it, thus validating that opinion?

[Jaded-Dragon]

One of the many reasons I fell in love with ECW. If ever a promotion had a perfect blend of wrestling, it was them. They had crazy ass hardcore brawls usually involving New Jack, Sandman, Dudley's, Dreamer, Balls & Axl, etc. Crazy spot matches like New Jack's balcony dive, Sabu, RVD, the cruiser weights. And a collection of wrestling classics, anything involving Guerrero, Malenko, & Benoit, RVD vs Jerry Lynn, the 6-man tag at their first PPV, Lance Storm, Shane Douglas, Scorpio etc. etc. Along with the best promo's, The Dudley's for instance, Lance Storm and Justin Credible were great towards the end of their run, Shane Douglas etc.

Heyman is a friggin genious, and in my humble and honest opinion, could build people up like no other booker/promoter in the history of the business. Like the DVD said, he made the absolute best out of people's positives and hid their negatives, and it's absolutely true.

As has been said, a strictly traditional wrestling show would not work. And the instance you pointed out of Savage vs Steamboat is moot, that was one match on the card that was "technical". That's exactly what we still have, there's normally one MAYBE two matches per PPV card that are for the technical wrestling fan.

Austin and Foley didn't ruin anything. Austin was there for the brawling and main storyline, Foley was there for the hardcore factor, both essential parts to a wrestling show (these days and back in '98). It wasn't like there were NO technical matches from 1998. The Rock vs Triple H at Fully Loaded immediately jumps to mind.

[Kane Knight]

Austin and Foley didn't ruin anything. Austin was there for the brawling and main storyline, Foley was there for the hardcore factor, both essential parts to a wrestling show (these days and back in '98). It wasn't like there were NO technical matches from 1998. The Rock vs Triple H at Fully Loaded immediately jumps to mind.
And neither Austin or Foley were BAD wrestlers. Foley was solid, even if his primary shtick was hardcore "glorified Stuntman" stuff, and Austin was capable of technical/mat wrestling. He's no Storm/Angle/Hart, but he was solid.

[Jaded-Dragon]

And neither Austin or Foley were BAD wrestlers. Foley was solid, even if his primary shtick was hardcore "glorified Stuntman" stuff, and Austin was capable of technical/mat wrestling. He's no Storm/Angle/Hart, but he was solid.


Exactly. Thinking back, I don't think I have ever seen a truly horrible match from either of them, ever.

[Kane Knight]

Exactly. Thinking back, I don't think I have ever seen a truly horrible match from either of them, ever.
This is probably a decent assessment. I'm not a huge Austin fan, but I do have to credit him with at least being solid.

[Londoner]

Except that's only one factor in determining the effects.

"I had waffles for breakfast yeserday, and it was sunny. I had toast for breakfast today and it rained. Eating toast causes rain."

"Only sick people take medicine. If I don't take my medicine, I'm not sick."

Oops! There I go being realistic again.

If there was a smaller creative team, things like the Necrophillia angle would still happen, since Vince pushed it. Since the guy writing things like Cena's "poopy" cracks is one of Vince's favorite writers, we'd still end up with him writing that stuff. And saying that there were better ratings when the team was small has less to do with it than the actual happenings.

More likely, the Attitude era was better because there was competition, and the company wasn't entirely ego driven (Which has happened not because the creative team is big, but because the wrong kind of people are given input), and because there was quite a bit of booking for the fans.

You're looking at a single aspect and not the related aspects. The Attitude era was not the result of "smallers teams=better." You're looking at this from the wrong angle.

Oh, and Hogan's last couple of runs failed to produce ratings. What makes you think this one suddenly magically has a chance of it, thus validating that opinion?


I can see where your coming from, but is it really worth having that many people, if you can't even make the right choices? And as recent history has proven, Vince obviously can't.

I also never said that Hogan would draw, if you read clearly i said that's his opinion-and we'll see the result of it after Backlash. I'm not entirely convinced that he will draw either, but i aint gonna make judgements yet because of the crowd reaction he got on Raw when HBK was goin 'ONE MORE MATCH' i'm not sure if that'll make a difference, but you never know. That's where im looking at, but ofcourse like you said, the last two times hes returned hasnt made a difference.

[Kane Knight]

I can see where your coming from, but is it really worth having that many people, if you can't even make the right choices? And as recent history has proven, Vince obviously can't.
That's a different argument though. Are you now changing your opinion?

[Londoner]

I'm changing my view on the fact that maybe having 8 or 9 members isnt such a bad idea if they hired the right people-you've got a point there to be honest. But yeah there is another argument and that is one i just brought up. I am amazed at how stupid Vince can be with his decision making sometimes, er actually, maybe i shouldn't be?

[Dave Youell]

Dave, I don't get how you could fault Hart for being repetitive. He had the best timing like ever.
Yeah no doubt and the structure to his matches were great. I'm just saying that his finishing combo was overused. Not at the time but in today's market.

Hell at the time I didn't know or even care about ring Pyscology (sp?) just saying in retrospect and my current opinions on finishes in wrestling

[Dave Youell]

Dude, the guy agreeing with you thinks Hogan's still a draw. Think about this for a second.
It was an opinion ok? Yours is different to mine, happy?

[Dave Youell]

I'm changing my view on the fact that maybe having 8 or 9 members isnt such a bad idea if they hired the right people-you've got a point there to be honest. But yeah there is another argument and that is one i just brought up. I am amazed at how stupid Vince can be with his decision making sometimes, er actually, maybe i shouldn't be?
Vince regretably is out of ideas and has been for a while, he admitted a few years back that he's lost touch with the audience and wasn't sure on what to give them. Since then the booking team has been like a revovling door with all the hollywood writers coming in and leaving along with Heyman, Pritchard and the list goes on.

There's been no real continuation in booking ideas and styles for a while now because of this, so the booking is going in different directions every couple of months which tends to rock the boat. Which is why i'm saying fewer bookers means a more controlled direction of the product. Yes the competition at the time could have also have helped this when the numbers were good as could a number of other factors, but we can't say for sure. Much in the same way we can't say that 2 guys booking would work well now, but no one can dissagree that the booking as a whole was better in 1999 compared to today.

I'm not just saying this for the WWE, on a much smaller scale i've worked in companies that try to have a few bookers and it doesn't work. From what i've seen.

Again just to clear this, this is an opinion, nothing I have said is fact.

[Kane Knight]

It was an opinion ok? Yours is different to mine, happy?
Different THAN mine, and when an "opinion" goes against facts, then an opinion can be wrong. Yours goes against the lack of drawing power Hogan has shown.

You can also say it's your opinion that the world is flat, or that the new Pope is a 3 headed martian who lives in your testicles, but you would be wrong in those opinions too.

[Kane Knight]

I'm changing my view on the fact that maybe having 8 or 9 members isnt such a bad idea if they hired the right people-you've got a point there to be honest. But yeah there is another argument and that is one i just brought up. I am amazed at how stupid Vince can be with his decision making sometimes, er actually, maybe i shouldn't be?
Just clarifying, because they're two different arguments.

And yes, you're right. In this sense, it makes more sense to keep a small team, since he generally seems to keep yesmen and fire everyone else.

What he really should start doing is listening to other people. Vince really isn't the genius he's made out to be.

[Dave Youell]

Different THAN mine, and when an "opinion" goes against facts, then an opinion can be wrong. Yours goes against the lack of drawing power Hogan has shown.

Do you know where I can get access to the past 4 years worth of Neilson ratings? because I don't. Seriously I would be interested to know.

Plus surely if it's announced in advance that Hogan's going to be on Raw one week the ratings would be slightly higher, purely for a nostalgia run, Much in the same way if they announced the Rock was going to be there next week, or if Austin was going to be there.

I never said Hogan can draw long term, because right now no one can, the wrestling industry as a whole is down, therefore I feel that i'm correct in my statement that Hogan can be a draw in respect to ratings compared to having the same guys on a normal show.

[Londoner]

Just clarifying, because they're two different arguments.

And yes, you're right. In this sense, it makes more sense to keep a small team, since he generally seems to keep yesmen and fire everyone else.

What he really should start doing is listening to other people. Vince really isn't the genius he's made out to be.

But then again, as Dave said,the more ideas there are, the more different directions a storyline can take..and that in itsself isnt neccessarily a good thing. I'm gonna change my opinion back slightly because Dave said what i couldn't put into words clearly, it's better to have a storyline going in one direction than possibly 8 or 9 directions.Don't you agree? That's what i was meant to say originally.

It confuses the storyline up abit, and therefore you get the WWE forgetting logic...mind you that's always been the case anyway but none more so than these days. Ofcourse then you have politics on top of that, which fucks things up further. It also as i have already said, takes less time up in putting together a show if you have fewer bookers...because you don't have to go through 8 or 9 people. And then you end up with pointless fill up the show segments like the diva search and Angles invitiational if you have more ideas because they have barely any time to get together anything.If you look at the time they have to get together a show...do you really think having so many people is a good thing?

This could explain why people like Jericho get fucked over.Makes perfect sense to me.