What happened to "Paying Your Dues?"

[My Final Heaven]

Hello all, I just drove into town to get something to drink, & I got to thinking about something on the way back. It seems that as of late, the WWE creative team has completely lost touch with / forgotten about the concept of "paying your dues". For anybody who doesn't know, that means when you get signed by the WWE (or many other companies for that matter), you pretty much have to count on putting other, more established guys over & slogging around on the undercard for a little while to prove yourself. Not too long ago, that was a HUGE thing for Vince & Co. You had RVD, Jericho, Booker, & lots of others putting over wrestlers left & right, and the logic that WWE gave was that they had to prove themselves since they hadn't been working for vince for long.

Now, though, Iv'e noticed that more & more new guys are getting mega pushes on, like, their FIRST night on WWE tv:

Carlito Carribean Cool: 1st match on Smackdown, he wins the US title from John Cena, & holds it for a couple of months. He gets traded to Raw. In his 1st match on the brand, He wins the Intercontinental title from Shelton Benjamin, who had held the belt for longer than anyone had in years. Now, I'm not complaining or anything. Carlito's one of the best things to happen in WWE in a really long time, & he's a great Heel champion. But a title win on his first night on both brands? I think that's pushing it a little.

Chris Masters: Still hasn't wrestled a singles match, but theyr'e still selling the hell out of The Master Lock. Every monday King & J.R. are screaming bloody murder & shooting their load about what an incredible hold it is, but Ken Patera was using the exact same thing 30+ years ago working for Vince's daddy. See, kids, it's easy to get any big, green oaf over without wasting time on stupid things like "ingenueity" or "any sort of feasable effort."

MNM: This is where the creative team's logic (or lack thereof) bugs me the most. Their 1st match on Smackdown, they not only win the WWE tag titles, but they win them from EDDIE GUERRERO AND REY MYSTERIO. Ok, let's take a look at both sides of this. On one side, Johnny Nitro & Joey Mercury, a mildy entertaining (on a good night) heel tag team suffering from a case of "Keibler-itis" (if you can't get guys over on thier charisma or workrate, just stick them with a half-naked woman, problem solved). On the other hand, EDDIE GUERRERO AND REY FUCKING MYSTERIO. PUTTING OVER THE GUY WHO USED TO GET ERIC BISCHOFF'S COFFEE ON RAW. That's classic McMahon logic there.

Well, thats all I can really think to say on the subject right now. Are there other wrestlers that you've noticed are being built up as unstoppable that just plain don't deserve the push or can't pull off the illusion? I'd really like to know what everybody else thinks about this subject.

[Corkscrewed]

Um... paying your dues can also mean working for one, two, many years in OVW.

Stuff that all of your examples have done.

[Savio]

Carlito Carribean Cool: Holly seperated hus houlder

Chris Masters: (Holly broke his Eye socket)

MNM: (ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm Holly slept with thier mothers)

[TerranRich]

Yes, I believe OVW now counts as "paying one's dues". Even Batista barely paid his dues, but he's a big guy.

Oh, and was Masters in OVW?

[Watson]

Hello all, I just drove into town to get something to drink, & I got to thinking about something on the way back. It seems that as of late, the WWE creative team has completely lost touch with / forgotten about the concept of "paying your dues". For anybody who doesn't know, that means when you get signed by the WWE (or many other companies for that matter), you pretty much have to count on putting other, more established guys over & slogging around on the undercard for a little while to prove yourself. Not too long ago, that was a HUGE thing for Vince & Co. You had RVD, Jericho, Booker, & lots of others putting over wrestlers left & right, and the logic that WWE gave was that they had to prove themselves since they hadn't been working for vince for long.

Now, though, Iv'e noticed that more & more new guys are getting mega pushes on, like, their FIRST night on WWE tv:

Carlito Carribean Cool: 1st match on Smackdown, he wins the US title from John Cena, & holds it for a couple of months. He gets traded to Raw. In his 1st match on the brand, He wins the Intercontinental title from Shelton Benjamin, who had held the belt for longer than anyone had in years. Now, I'm not complaining or anything. Carlito's one of the best things to happen in WWE in a really long time, & he's a great Heel champion. But a title win on his first night on both brands? I think that's pushing it a little.

Chris Masters: Still hasn't wrestled a singles match, but theyr'e still selling the hell out of The Master Lock. Every monday King & J.R. are screaming bloody murder & shooting their load about what an incredible hold it is, but Ken Patera was using the exact same thing 30+ years ago working for Vince's daddy. See, kids, it's easy to get any big, green oaf over without wasting time on stupid things like "ingenueity" or "any sort of feasable effort."

MNM: This is where the creative team's logic (or lack thereof) bugs me the most. Their 1st match on Smackdown, they not only win the WWE tag titles, but they win them from EDDIE GUERRERO AND REY MYSTERIO. Ok, let's take a look at both sides of this. On one side, Johnny Nitro & Joey Mercury, a mildy entertaining (on a good night) heel tag team suffering from a case of "Keibler-itis" (if you can't get guys over on thier charisma or workrate, just stick them with a half-naked woman, problem solved). On the other hand, EDDIE GUERRERO AND REY FUCKING MYSTERIO. PUTTING OVER THE GUY WHO USED TO GET ERIC BISCHOFF'S COFFEE ON RAW. That's classic McMahon logic there.

Well, thats all I can really think to say on the subject right now. Are there other wrestlers that you've noticed are being built up as unstoppable that just plain don't deserve the push or can't pull off the illusion? I'd really like to know what everybody else thinks about this subject.
Excellent point. That's about the best post I've read in the wrestling forum in weeks. I wonder that same thing every week when I watch RAW and Smackdown. There's alot of guys being pushed to the moon and some of them don't even deserve to be on Heat or Velocity much less RAW and Smackdown. The main ones are the ones you pointed out. Especially Carlito, like you said his first match on Smackdown he wins the US title and his first match on RAW he wins the IC title. That is just insane to me. I mean I know the guy has worked the indies alot and down in OVW but that still doesn't mean he deserves the push he's gotten. Same for Chris Masters and also MNM. I don't even think Randy Orton's paid enough dues not to be pushed as much as he's been pushed. I mean Hell look how long it took Benoit and Guerrero to get World title runs.

Wrestlers not paying enough dues is my biggest complaint against the WWE. Yeah it's good to push new stars to keep the product fresh rather than keeping the same guys on top but don't bring in guys nobody has even heard of and have them dominate guys who have been busting their asses in WWE for years and years. I have no idea why Vince is pushing all these guys who haven't paid their dues but in my opinion that's one of WWE's biggest problems and that's why the ratings aren't so great. We can only hope that Vince will get his head straight and start doing things the way he use to do thing and that's by making these young, hungry, guys work there way to the top rather than having an easy ride. If there as promising as he and the creative team think then eventually they'll be on top. There has been alot of guys who Vince pushed to the top only for them to either drop the ball or take what they have been given for granted *cough*Brock*cough*.

[My Final Heaven]

Um... paying your dues can also mean working for one, two, many years in OVW.

Stuff that all of your examples have done.

Whenever I said paying your dues, I meant putting over more established talent on the roster. WWE tv (Smackdown & Raw) & OVW are 2 seperate entities, You could say the exact same thing about Jericho, Booker, RVD & Co. They wrestled in other organizations, proving they had what it takes to succeed in WCW & ECW. That didn't stop WWE from jobbing the hell out of them.

[My Final Heaven]

Yeah it's good to push new stars to keep the product fresh rather than keeping the same guys on top but don't bring in guys nobody has even heard of and have them dominate guys who have been busting their asses in WWE for years and years.

THANK YOU! You just summed up everything I wanted to say in the above post in one sentence. :y:

[Scarface]

If any tag team comes in with a good gimmick or a gimmick that garners them heat of some kind, they will always win the tag titles within a few weeks.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think it's as much guys that don't deserve to be on top, as it is guys that aren't quite as deserving that are on top.

When I say that I mean guys like Kane, Chris Jericho, RVD, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, The Big Show & Val Venis, that have spent almost a decade in some cases doing their job and doing it honourably waiting for a shot.

John Cena, Batista and Randy Orton ALL deserve what they have, but it seems as if the WWE has lost track of the ladder system they once had. The "stars of today" have seemigly skipped ahead of the Jerichos and Booker Ts while the Jerichos and Booker Ts don't move anywhere. I personally think it is because of such a protection around the old top stars like The Undertaker, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Triple H, Kevin Nash, etc. that this has happened. Benoit and Jericho never really got a launch into the top division, so they haven't really been knighted top stars, thus the WWE hasn't really advanced their places on the roster.

I'm not sure if what I just said came off right, but basically the message of it is that Wrestler-A doesn't make a big enough star out of Wrestler-B, so when Wrestler-A retires or starts settling down, Wrestler-B isn't trusted, so Wrestler-C gets the torch.

Personally I'd rather see Cena, Orton and Batista raking in the mid-ard wins while Kane is the top babyface of the WWE, but all the guys that are at the top right now deserve it one way or another.

[KayfabeMan]

What it is is desperation and stupidity in bed together.

WWF / WWE has been pulling this shit for YEARS.

There are two reasons underlying to everything.

They are grasping for straws to stay afloat, and whoever is even remotely popular at a chosen moment becomes a so-called "superstar". They know that there are certain guys who could carry the company if given the chance - but here is their logic on it:

Wrestler X is way over, but Wrestler X has been around for 10+ years already - and has basically always been way over. No matter what we have him doing, Wrestler X will always be over, and people will buy his shirts, DVDs, figures, etc. - and will come to see him.

Wrestler Y is a green rookie, but we've slapped him with a half-assed gimmick, and the marks are eating him up right now. They are buying into Wrestler Y like crazy, and why do I care why they are doing it, as long as they are? We don't know how long that its going to last, so hurry and push Wrestler Y while we can still milk him for all that he is worth to us. Then we move on to the next flavor of the month.

Just to prove it.

Look at the majority of the guys not getting a shot to do anything - Booker T, RVD, Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, William Regal, Rey Mysterio, even The Big Show to a certain extent. These are guys who obviously deserve a lot better than what it is they are getting at the moment.

WWE knows that these guys make money, and they know that NO MATTER WHO IT IS THEY HAVE BENOIT PUT OVER [ex.], that everyone will still like Benoit, and will buy his stuff and respect him and pay to see him. They don't know how long that will last for Cena, so they are giving it to Cena while they can capitalize off of the quick cash. If all else fails, Benoit [again, just an ex.] will certainly be there to fall back on again.

Sure some of these guys have gotten their belt, push, etc. before - but only because the demand for them was at an all-time high, and they HAD to give them a shot, as at that moment - THEY were the flavor of the month. Now it's on guys like CCC, Batista, etc. - who are, IMO, far less talented than some of the others, but that is a different issue.

Now on to reason two.

If you look at that same list - they all have something in common besides being kept on the side for use later like a fire extinguisher or a condom. They are all NON WWE talents. Yes, they may work there now, but they weren't established there - and it is 100% true that Vince does not like to get behind things he didn't "create".

The guys getting the pushes now - CCC, Orton, Hassan, Cena, Batista, JBL, Edge, etc. - these are all WWE "creations". Home-grown talent, if you will. Vince prefers these to outside talents, always has, and probably always will. Something in his ego will not let him take an "outside" established guy and keep him established, he must make "his guys" look better 90% of the time.

Everyone is probably thinking, "KM, what about Austin and Foley and others who were in WCW and other places before WWE?". Simple, at the moment they were made big, they were the flavor of the month that caught on. They just happened to be in at a time when wrestling was BOOMING, and you REALLY were a superstar. So he made his money the same way he's making it now, except before he was making even more.

He's done this forever. Look at Harley Race, a tremendous NWA World Champion, a big draw for the promotion - a well respected individual. He was taken in by WWE, and of course, an NWA Champion should not be elevated for the title. No, no. He deserves to wear a fucking Burger King crown and parade around like a kiddie show.

They did this with Vader, one of the most underrated guys ever. Big draw for WCW, a great talent. International draw, in Japan - all the hell over. Comes to WWE. Yeah, he gets a push - because he jumped ship, and was a flavor of the month. What goes on from there? No title run. No nothing. He gets hit in the face with a wrench by Kane, loses to no-talents like JBL and Mark Henry, and has what is happening to Jericho & Co. now happening to him back then.

Anyhow, sorry for rambling, just was trying to give some insight from a promoter POV and prove a point / open discussion on this, as it really is a good thread.

[PorkSoda]

I think everyone already paid their dues :shifty:

[KayfabeMan]

Except me, I still owe a library book from 1997.

[My Final Heaven]

Except me, I still owe a library book from 1997.
ROFL!

[My Final Heaven]

If you look at that same list - they all have something in common besides being kept on the side for use later like a fire extinguisher or a condom. They are all NON WWE talents.

That, right there my friend, is the one Rule Of Vince I forgot to take into consideration :'(.

[KayfabeMan]

it is 100% true that Vince does not like to get behind things he didn't create

Except sweaty men in tights. :shifty:

[Psycho C]

And hosses.

[FourFifty]

Chris Masters: Still hasn't wrestled a singles match


What!?!?!?! You mean it was a blowup doll, NOT Steven Richards!?!?!?!?!

[TerranRich]

No, what Final Heaven's saying is that he just didn't SEE anybody wrestling Chris Masters that night, so he assumed that he didn't wrestle anybody at all. You see, he was still invisible at the time. ;)

[Volchok]

Masters has wrestled like 3 or 4 matches..wtf are you smoking My Final Heaven?

[KayfabeMan]

OK EcKo my friend, I must correct your sentence there.

"Masters has wrestled like 3 or 4 matches..."

There is no possible way that Chris Masters' name should be in a sentence with the words "wrestle/d" or "match/es". The only way that would be acceptable is if you were to say something like: "Masters wishes that he could wrestle as well as William Regal" or "I'd die if Chris Masters had an actual wrestling match". Something of that nature.

[My Final Heaven]

What!?!?!?! You mean it was a blowup doll, NOT Steven Richards!?!?!?!?!

Sorry, I forgot. That was "punchkickpunchpunchkickMASTERLOCKMASTERLOCKMASTERLOCK".

[Skippord]

No it was Polish Hammer MasterLock

[My Final Heaven]

Hey, I just realized something. Masters is on Raw. Cena is on Raw. Since Vince is so high right now on bringing back old gimmicks, He could duplicate the Undertaker / Kama feud:

*Masters knocks out Cena & steals the chain from around his neck*

CM: "Now that I have the world champion's necklace, I can melt it down into my own MASTER LOCK!!!! MUAHAHAHA.... Hey, what's this thing dangling off the end... DAMMIT!!!!!"

:D

[Nark Order]

I believe that was MOM ( Men On a Mission), not Kama.

May be wrong though...

[Watson]

Umm no it was Kama.

[KayfabeMan]

Yeah, like everyone said, it was Kama.

Although I give you a :y: for mentioning Men on A Mission.

Now everybody say OOH YEAH!!!