TPWW AL MVP voting thread

[The Miz]

<table x:str="" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="687" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 521pt;"> <col width="64" style="width: 48pt;"> <col width="41" style="width: 31pt;"> <col width="34" style="width: 26pt;"> <col width="35" style="width: 26pt;"> <col width="37" style="width: 28pt;"> <col width="32" style="width: 24pt;"> <col width="29" style="width: 22pt;"> <col width="26" style="width: 20pt;"> <col width="29" style="width: 22pt;"> <col width="34" style="width: 26pt;"> <col width="42" span="2" style="width: 32pt;"> <col width="26" style="width: 20pt;"> <col width="54" span="4" style="width: 41pt;"> <tbody><tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" width="64" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;">
</td> <td width="41" style="width: 31pt;">
</td> <td class="xl26" width="34" style="width: 26pt;">G</td> <td class="xl26" width="35" style="width: 26pt;">AB</td> <td class="xl26" width="37" style="width: 28pt;">R</td> <td class="xl26" width="32" style="width: 24pt;">H</td> <td class="xl26" width="29" style="width: 22pt;">2B</td> <td class="xl26" width="26" style="width: 20pt;">3B</td> <td class="xl26" width="29" style="width: 22pt;">HR</td> <td class="xl26" width="34" style="width: 26pt;">RBI</td> <td class="xl26" width="42" style="width: 32pt;">BB</td> <td class="xl26" width="42" style="width: 32pt;">K</td> <td class="xl26" width="26" style="width: 20pt;">SB</td> <td class="xl26" width="54" style="width: 41pt;">AVG</td> <td class="xl26" width="54" style="width: 41pt;">OBP</td> <td class="xl26" width="54" style="width: 41pt;">SLG</td> <td class="xl26" width="54" style="width: 41pt;">OPS</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl25" colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;">Vlad Guerrero</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">141</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">520</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">95</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">165</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">29</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">2</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">32</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">108</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">61</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">48</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">13</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.317">0.317</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.39400000000000002">0.394</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.56499999999999995">0.565</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.95899999999999996">0.959</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl25" colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;">Travis Hafner</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">137</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">486</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">94</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">148</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">42</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">0</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">33</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">108</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">79</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">123</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">0</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.30499999999999999">0.305</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.40799999999999997">0.408</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.59499999999999997">0.595</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1.0029999999999999">1.003</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl25" colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;">David Ortiz</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">159</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">601</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">118</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">180</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">40</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">47</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">148</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">102</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">124</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">0.300</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.39700000000000002">0.397</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.60399999999999998">0.604</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1.002">1.002</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl25" colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;">Paul Konerko</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">158</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">575</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">98</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">163</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">24</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">0</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">40</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">100</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">81</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">109</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">0</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.28299999999999997">0.283</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.375">0.375</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.53400000000000003">0.534</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.90900000000000003">0.909</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl25" colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;">Alex Rodriguez</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">162</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">605</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">124</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">194</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">29</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">1</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">48</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">130</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">91</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">139</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="">21</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.32200000000000001">0.322</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="0.42099999999999999">0.421</td> <td class="xl27" x:num="">0.610</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1.034">1.034</td> </tr></tbody> </table>

[The Miz]

Last year's results:

1. Manny Ramirez, BOS
2. Vladimir Guerrero, ANA
3. Gary Sheffield, NYY
4. Ichiro Suzuki, SEA
5. David Ortiz, BOS
6. Miguel Tejada, BAL

[CNM]

Vlad was the MVP last year

[The Miz]

Not in our polls

[CNM]

Oh, my bad. Didn't know you did it last year

[Joey Slugs]

ARod gets my vote.

[BCWWF]

I would like to vote for Konerko, because the White Sox were so good for so long, but his stats just aren't up there.

Besides Ortiz having very timely hitting, his stats aren't considerably better then A-Rod in any category that would warrant more importance A-Rod's gold glove. In fact RBI's and Doubles are about the only two things he is better in.

Also, I'm not surprised at all that Manny was TPWW MVP last year. We have so much Boston here, I am shocked that right now A-Rod is winning this one 5-0.

[KingofOldSchool]

A-Rod.

[Innovator]

A-Rod

[The Icon of Elisim]

I voted for Ortiz but I think A-rod should win. Ortiz just had such a big september, I don't think the stats were that much better than A-rods but the fact is that he was clutch which will definetly get some big votes

[John la Rock]

ORTIZ. so clutch

[YOUR Hero]

There's no doubt Ortiz made a huge late push in my eyes. Same as how Hafner lost a lot of consideration in my opinion down the stretch. Overall though, I still give it to A-Rod

[FakeLaser]

I don't see how you can't give it to A-Rod. It's not even close. Not only was he the best offensive player in the AL, he was also the best defensively at his position, a position relatively new to him.

Ortiz only beats him in RBI's and doubles. A-Rod hit 22 points higher, his OBP is 24 points higher, he outslugged him by 6 points, he has 21 steals to Ortiz's 1, and he was stellar defensively, while Ortiz played like 20 games at 1st.

Vlad would have factored into this more if he didn't miss time; Konerko and Hafner's stats just don't measure up. It's basically a two horse race, but A-Rod should win by a lot more than a nose.

[RoXer]

A_Rod :(

[Joey Slugs]

INot only was he the best offensive player in the AL, he was also the best defensively at his position, a position relatively new to him.


I was talking about who should win a gold glove this year the other night with some friends and one of the guys said that ARod would be a lock. I just looked at him and laughed my ass off (because of ARod's errors in the first half) and then I looked dumb after learning that he only had 1 error the entire second half.

That's just sick. He might be the best all-around player in the game.

[BCWWF]

He is very consistent, but Chavez makes some spectacular plays over there.

[Gertner]

Vlad the Impaler carried his team on his back.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>A-Rod.....IMO the best all around player in baseball....he hits, he hits for power, he can field, he can throw, he has speed, he has it all...</font>

[Supreme Olajuwon]

ARod no doubt. DH's should not win an MVP ever.

[weather vane]

I'm biased. Ortiz.

[VonErich Lives]

So, why is A-rod a slam dunk Gold Glover?

He had a great defensive year, but so did a few others..


Select
up to 5
players


Blalock, Mueller, Crede also warrent consideration.

[The Miz]

So, why is A-rod a slam dunk Gold Glover?

He had a great defensive year, but so did a few others..


Select
up to 5
players


Blalock, Mueller, Crede also warrent consideration.

Eric Chavez?

Managers vote on Gold Gloves and most don't put alot of thought into it, just pick whoever's won recently or base it on reputation which is why Chavez and Rodriguez are always 1-2. The best I saw this year were Chavez, Mora, Rodriguez, Beltre and Inge. Blalock, no.

[VonErich Lives]

Eric Chavez?

Blalock, no.

Check out his feilding stats.

[VonErich Lives]

and Mueller and Crede.

[The Miz]

So because Blalock has few errors and high FPCT he's a gold glove 3B? Errors are a very unaccurate stat, how many times have you seen a guy get a cheap error on a play he shouldn't have or make an error and the hitter gets credited with a single? Errors are a judgement call and thus inaccurate. Chavez has 4 more errors than Blalock, and as someone who watched a ton of Oakland games I can tell you alot of them were unfairly credited. Early in the season before Dan Johnson was called up Oakland had an awful defensive 1B in Scott Hatteberg who missed at least 4 Chavez throws that Mark Teixiera or any decent 1B would've dug out. I've seen alot of Oakland and Texas games and Chavez > Blalock.

One again VEL you don't understand stats. I like how you just took the top 3 guys in fielding % as your candidates though. Watch the games sometime.

[VonErich Lives]

So because Blalock has few errors and high FPCT he's a gold glove 3B? Errors are a very unaccurate stat, how many times have you seen a guy get a cheap error on a play he shouldn't have or make an error and the hitter gets credited with a single? Errors are a judgement call and thus inaccurate. Chavez has 4 more errors than Blalock, and as someone who watched a ton of Oakland games I can tell you alot of them were unfairly credited. Early in the season before Dan Johnson was called up Oakland had an awful defensive 1B in Scott Hatteberg who missed at least 4 Chavez throws that Mark Teixiera or any decent 1B would've dug out. I've seen alot of Oakland and Texas games and Chavez > Blalock.

One again VEL you don't understand stats. I like how you just took the top 3 guys in fielding % as your candidates though. Watch the games sometime.

Yes, miz "One again"...

Really, we should all have your life, where you get to watch every game of every team.

First) I brought up other names, didn't say one deserved more then another, just gave some names, names that clearly qualify if you know 1/2 of what you claim.

Second) I do watch games, I also understand stats you don't.

It's called a gold glove, it's based of fielding, not "how you think the player looks". Error's and f%, that's defense.

Of course can't blame you for watching Oakland v. Texas, anything's better then a Mariners game.

[The Miz]

You know you're defeated when you open the post pointing out a typo.

I don't watch every game of every team. I've seen a good number of AL games this year, and the best I saw were Chavez, Rodriguez, Mora, Beltre, and Inge. I don't know if they are the best 5 3B's in the AL. Probably not. But they were the best 5 I saw.

Errors and F% are not good measures of defense. You convieniently didn't respond to my comment about errors being flawed. Do you disagree VEL?

Yeah you brought up names, you went to MLB.com and sorted the stats by fielding percentage and picked the top 3. Atta boy.

Why did you put "how you think the player looks" in quotes? Did I say that? What does that even mean? The Gold Glove Award honors the best defensive players at each position is both leagues. Not the most statistical defensive player. Errors and fielding % are 2 of the most flawed statistics in baseball. Judging a players defense by those 2 stats is just stupid.

Wow another Mariners joke. The comedic stylings of VonErich Lives, everybody.

[RoXer]

Miz, I remember I asked you this earlier but I forgot to bookmark it. Where do you get all your stats from?

[The Miz]

Usually just MLB.com or ESPN.com. For Sabermetrics, ESPN is ok but baseballprospectus.com is the best place for those.

[RoXer]

Really? Because sometimes you bust out stats I've never even heard of. They're still important or relevent to the discussion, but not one that I've heard of a lot.

[The Miz]

Which ones specifically?

[RoXer]

Well, not ones that "I've never heard of" but sometimes you bring up things that catch me off guard and I ask myself "How the hell did he come up with that?"

I dunno, but next time you do it, I'll tell you.

[YOUR Hero]

stats are important, but they can be over analyzed and blown out of proportion.

[RoXer]

Only 35% of left-handed Canadians who sleep for an average amount of 7 hours a night agree with that statement.

[BCWWF]

I think its kind of extreme to throw out fielding percentage and errors when talking about a gold glover. They are telling stats if you look correctly. If Chavez had four more errors then Blalock, it doesn't mean anything. If he had 20 more errors then it would be worth pointing out. Like the Miz said, you can't put too much into those stats, because a guy like Chavez is expected to get balls that Blalock isn't, so theres an error right there.

It really all comes down to what you judge a gold glover on, consistency or spectacular plays. As a Twins fan, I have seen two and maybe three guys get screwed over on gold gloves in the past. Doug Mientkiewicz only winning one glove, in 2001, is a travesty. He had far superior range and did much more spectacular things then John Olerud, but Olerud was "consistent" and had a better BA, so he got it every year. Corey Koskie was arguably the second best fielding third baseman in the AL for a year or two, behind Chavez. I forget the year but Chavez missed at least half the year and still won, its all name recognition, Koskie probably deserved it that year.

In my opinion, gold glove should be who is the superior fielder, not just who doesn't mess up. Mienky could cover more ground on his face and dug up more balls then Olerud ever could, but because John didn't miss any catches he would win them.

For this years third base, its hard to say. A-Rod is a really sound third baseman, great arm, good range, all that, but Chavez can make plays that A-Rod can't. The ones where he barehands it and throws a guy out from his a seated position, so I think he should win the glove. I wouldn't have a problem with A-Rod, but really Olerud had nothing that made him a special first baseman, he was just consistantly above average.

[ddpBANG]

I HATE the DH, so I'm voting for Vlad. Otherwise it would've been Ortiz.

[VonErich Lives]

You know you're defeated when you open the post pointing out a typo.

I don't watch every game of every team. I've seen a good number of AL games this year, and the best I saw were Chavez, Rodriguez, Mora, Beltre, and Inge. I don't know if they are the best 5 3B's in the AL. Probably not. But they were the best 5 I saw.

Errors and F% are not good measures of defense. You convieniently didn't respond to my comment about errors being flawed. Do you disagree VEL?

Yeah you brought up names, you went to MLB.com and sorted the stats by fielding percentage and picked the top 3. Atta boy.

Why did you put "how you think the player looks" in quotes? Did I say that? What does that even mean? The Gold Glove Award honors the best defensive players at each position is both leagues. Not the most statistical defensive player. Errors and fielding % are 2 of the most flawed statistics in baseball. Judging a players defense by those 2 stats is just stupid.

Wow another Mariners joke. The comedic stylings of VonErich Lives, everybody.

Errors are a scorers judgement call yes, and balls/strikes are an umps judgement call, so let's throw K's out when talking about CY Young.

When gold glove was mentioned my first thought goes to Muellar, simply because I see him the most, so I went to mlb.com to see the stats to see where he actually was, v. where I think he is by seeing him so often.

So, if we're going by the "Miz school of baseball" and we're going to throw out f% and Error's, how do we judge a gold glove?

It wasn't a Mariners joke, but it seems in any discussion you seem to have seen many games, and they don't involve the home team... How do you find time to watch all the games? What do you do when there are 2 games at the same time?

As for the type-o, everyone points out mine, I figured for once I'd point out someone elses.