View Full Version : Does anybody else think that Bret was in the wrong for Montreal.
Nark Order
12-29-2005, 09:41 PM
I know this has been brought up probably more than any other topic in the history of this forum but since alot of attention has gone to the incident lately, I thought this would be appropriate to bring up. Everybody always goes on and on about how Vince screwed Bret and that it was a shitty thing to do ...blah blah blah. Wait a sec though. Correct me if I'm wrong but part of what started the situation is that Bret refused to job to Michaels for the belt before he left off to WCW. The way I see it, Bret never really had the right to refuse to lose to Michaels in the first place. Whether he hated the guy or not, this seems like an extremely unprofessional thing to do. Especially taking into consideration that it wasn't going to matter anyway once he left off to WCW. That put Vince in a tough spot as far as booking goes. The match was already set up. I say Vince did what he had to do due to the fact that he was dealing with a very stubborn worker. I most likely would've done something similar. Alot of people will say 'oh, it didn't matter what Vince thought to Bret cause he was leaving. bla, blah blah.'. In any other line of work, you are an active contributing employee until your very last day of work. The fact that he refused to do what the boss told him out of dislike for his opponent shows that he didn't care what state he left the company in after his departure. If Bret didn't care about the WWF or Vince then why should Vince have cared about him?
Just the way I see it. Thoughts?
The Naitch
12-29-2005, 09:43 PM
Bret fucking Hart screwed Bret fucking Hart
Cool King
12-29-2005, 09:53 PM
I agree with what has been said up to this point in time.
Maybe I will further my agreement with the other members of this forum that agree with Mr. Deadlyheaven, but there will be some people who will disagree with what he has said.
That's me trying to sound smart BTW. I'll just say it the normal way.
Yes, Bret was unprofessional and Vince had no choice. Bret Screwed Bret.
St. Jimmy
12-29-2005, 10:02 PM
some people claim that his years of dedication to the company is what should have allowed him to walk out the way he wanted to.
personally, that kinda bullshit is what makes society idiotic.
if you a wrestler, you should leave putting someone big over.
bret wanted to pull a hogan. =/
Thriller
12-29-2005, 10:04 PM
Do i think Bret was wrong in what he did? no.Did Vince Screw Bret pretty much. Did Vince do what was right for buisness i have to say yes .
Now i may have some of my facts wrong but
1) I believe Bret had a think on his contract called creative control which let him decide in which direction his character went
2)Bret simply refused to drop the title to Shawn in Montreal and wouldve dropped it the next night on Raw.And even he he didnt want to so what Shawn did the exact same thing during his"I lost my smile" speech as he was slated to drop the belt back to Bret
3)Vince agreed to have the match end in a double DQ therefore went back on his word.
Bret stood up for what he believed and there is no shame for that
For fuck sakes get over it!!!
This is like the 957646 post on this since Montreal.
Innovator
12-29-2005, 10:35 PM
Everyone take a note from what HBK said to Vince on Monday
GET OVER IT
Kane Knight
12-29-2005, 11:13 PM
...Unless youré Canadian. Then you can harp on it for another 20 years.
NAMT!
(Not another Montreal thread!)
NAMT!
(Not another Montreal thread!)
I think these guys need some "closure"
Kane Knight
12-30-2005, 10:23 AM
If, by "closure," you mean a boot in the ass, yes.
Stickman
12-30-2005, 01:25 PM
Bret was right and wrong in this situation
Vince was right and wrong in this situation.
Both guys did what they felt was necessary. I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" here. They both just fucked up.
Hitman84
12-30-2005, 02:07 PM
Bret was right and wrong in this situation
Vince was right and wrong in this situation.
Both guys did what they felt was necessary. I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" here. They both just fucked up.
:y:
It's a lot more complex than Bret didn't want to job and was leaving.
Everyone take a note from what HBK said to Vince on Monday
GET OVER IT
Funny since Michaels himself can't get over it.
Kane Knight
12-30-2005, 03:06 PM
Funny since Michaels himself can't get over it.
Not to mention the WWE.
Zen v.W.o.
12-30-2005, 03:12 PM
Niether can I, nor will I.
Vince screwed Bret, he didnt even know what he wanted as he kept altering match ideas and so on. He agreed to what Bret stated, he gave Bret reasonable creative control(well deserved mind you) and Bret used it. Too bad for Vince.
So yes Vince screwed over Bret, a man who did everything for that company, hell he even worked a night at survivor series when Dean died.
Besides that fact, HBk flat out told Bret he would not do a job for Bret and extend the same courtesy Bret has done, and said he would have done again for HBK. Once he found that out, Bret refused to do business with a man who didnt know what professionalsim and good business conduct even meant. It was a spit in the face to Bret. And I wouldnt blame him for acting the way he did.
Kane Knight
12-30-2005, 03:18 PM
Niether can I, nor will I.
Vince screwed Bret, he didnt even know what he wanted as he kept altering match ideas and so on. He agreed to what Bret stated, he gave Bret reasonable creative control(well deserved mind you) and Bret used it. Too bad for Vince.
So yes Vince screwed over Bret, a man who did everything for that company, hell he even worked a night at survivor series when Dean died.
Besides that fact, HBk flat out told Bret he would not do a job for Bret and extend the same courtesy Bret has done, and said he would have done again for HBK. Once he found that out, Bret refused to do business with a man who didnt know what professionalsim and good business conduct even meant. It was a spit in the face to Bret. And I wouldnt blame him for acting the way he did.
You're Canadian. You can't give a REASON, you have to chant "You screwed Bret!"
Zen v.W.o.
12-30-2005, 03:23 PM
My reasoning is in my posts, of which there are many.
However, you are correct, and I probably even started the chants you heard on that march night after WM18, directed towards Vinnie Mac.
All I have yet to do is jump the railing, which I shall do, at some point in time.
Probably in 2014, when this has been long buried.
Anyways, half the people who chant it probably were not even watching back in 1997. It's just a right of being Canadian I guess.
The One
12-30-2005, 03:27 PM
Chanting in spite filled rage at a man who did something to someone whom most have porbably never met in person...nor where even fans of him when he did anything other then bitch about being screwed.
Wow, not only a right that Canadians use, but a perfect display of mass iggnorence and trend fallowing.
Zen v.W.o.
12-30-2005, 03:32 PM
It's actually only rage for some. Most follow along as it's fun.
I do it because I dont like HBK's character and prefer Bret to him, and feel he did get screwed over.
Besides, when the shows come up north, it just makes things all the more interesting.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 03:50 PM
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Bret said that he WOULD job to Shawn Michaels, but he just didn't want to do it in his home country. I'm not saying that makes matters any better or worse, because there are a lot of cities in Canada, but wasn't there supposed to be a rematch between the two after Survivor Series in which Michaels would take the strap?
Kane Knight
12-30-2005, 03:51 PM
My reasoning is in my posts, of which there are many.
However, you are correct, and I probably even started the chants you heard on that march night after WM18, directed towards Vinnie Mac.
All I have yet to do is jump the railing, which I shall do, at some point in time.
Probably in 2014, when this has been long buried.
Anyways, half the people who chant it probably were not even watching back in 1997. It's just a right of being Canadian I guess.
What are you, retarded? I said you CAN'T give reasons. :nono: You are a discredit to your nation.
Zen v.W.o.
12-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Yes, as a matter of fact he stated he would job to him sometime after the SS. The thing is, people seem to forget Bret still had another month left to go on his deal, so there was plenty of time to take the strap off of him in whatever fashion they would have liked. Vince panicked for whatever reason and made a rash decision. Which is why when people worry that a guy like Bret would have taken the title with him into wcw is so preposterous.
Zen v.W.o.
12-30-2005, 03:55 PM
What are you, retarded? I said you CAN'T give reasons. :nono: You are a discredit to your nation.
Sorry bud, misread your meaning. I roll to the beat of my own drummer.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 03:56 PM
Yeah, only a dickhead like Ric Flair would do something like that.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 03:57 PM
Take the title to another promotion, I mean.
HeartBreakMan2k
12-30-2005, 04:00 PM
1) I believe Bret had a think on his contract called creative control which let him decide in which direction his character went
Bret had reasonable creative control. Refusing to job the world title to the only guy who logically should win it, simply because you hate the guy isn't reasonable.
Bret should have jobbed. Was Bret screwed? Yes. Do I think it was right? No. Do I think Bret was wrong and brought it on himself regardless? Absolutely.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 04:03 PM
HE WOULD HAVE JOBBED. Just didn't want to do it in Canada. That's not really asking too much, I don't think. Maybe it was. But I don't think so.
HeartBreakMan2k
12-30-2005, 04:11 PM
HE WOULD HAVE JOBBED. Just didn't want to do it in Canada. That's not really asking too much, I don't think. Maybe it was. But I don't think so.
Ok, then in the same token if say Kurt Angle didn't want to job to Bret Hart in the US, that would be ok right? Or if Tajiri said he didn't want to job to Hulk Hogan in Asia that would be ok? To me it's the same idea (ok, maybe not the Tajiri example, but the Kurt one is valid). If Shawn refused to job to Bret in the US there would have been 8 million people calling him a dick.
The One
12-30-2005, 04:22 PM
The One's Stance
Bret screwed Bret.
Vince tricked Bret.
Michaels out polotiked Bret.
But ultimatly, Bret can't blame anyone but himself for how it all went downed. And it isn't like this was a blind side for Bret. He knew what he was demanding might cause a backlash. He even asked Earl Hebner to promise he wouldn't screw him. So clearly he knew that he was walking on thin ice, he just figured Vince would put their friendship above business. And maybe Bret had done that for years, but Vince owns a fucking company, you don't put friendship above business when your business is not only yours but hundreds of people work for your company...ever. Especially in this biz where time heals all wounds.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 04:27 PM
Ok, then in the same token if say Kurt Angle didn't want to job to Bret Hart in the US, that would be ok right? Or if Tajiri said he didn't want to job to Hulk Hogan in Asia that would be ok? To me it's the same idea (ok, maybe not the Tajiri example, but the Kurt one is valid). If Shawn refused to job to Bret in the US there would have been 8 million people calling him a dick.
The difference is how often they are in the US and how often they are in Canada. Having shows (especially a PPV) in Canada was something kind of out of the norm for the WWF in 1997. Even though Bret isn't from Montreal, anything in Canada would be the closest he had to a show in his "home town".
If Kurt Angle didn't want to job in the entire United States, that would be ridiculous. If he didn't want to job in Pennsylvania, it wouldn't be so far fetched. Same thing with Tajiri in Asia.
HeartBreakMan2k
12-30-2005, 04:38 PM
I guess that's the difference then. I respect what you'er saying but at the same time, I don't think you refuse to job period. Regardless of where you're at. If you're told by your boss, to job, then you job. You have the right to disagree, but you still do your job. Vince didn't ask Bret to kiss Shawn's ass on national tv, so it's not like Vince was out to destroy Bret's character or out to humiliate Bret, he was merely doing what was best for HIS company.
Nark Order
12-30-2005, 04:44 PM
He never had the right to refuse to job to Michaels ANYWHERE. It may be true that he was entitled to certain amounts of creative control while under contract but I would think that his creative control would have been relinquished the minute he quit the company.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 04:46 PM
You're right in that aspect, but again, Bret DID have creative control. When that was granted to him, Vince knew that something like this could potentially happen. Yes, Vince was his boss, but because of the creative control, it was Bret's right as an employee to decline. If Vince was so paranoid about it, he should have never given him creative control in the first place.
Nark Order
12-30-2005, 04:46 PM
Furthermore... If you were Vince would you rather had the title change hands on one of the biggest PPVs in a given year or have it change on RAW??
HeartBreakMan2k
12-30-2005, 04:47 PM
I could have sworn it was "reasonable creative control" not total. Refusing to drop the title at a big PPV to the logical challenger doesn't seem reasonable.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 04:52 PM
Well now we're just going in circles. It wasn't the fact that it was a PPV that irked Bret. It was the fact that it was in his home area. He said he would've done it, but he didn't want to do it there.
I think that's "reasonable".
And if Vince really didn't think it was 'reasonable', why did he lead Bret to believe that everything was cool? If he really wanted to be THE BOSS, he should've said "LOOK BRET, YOU FUCK, YOU WILL JOB AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!".
But instead, he went behind his back and just confused the shit out of him. That wasn't very nice on Vince's part.
HeartBreakMan2k
12-30-2005, 04:54 PM
Because had Vince said that then Bret could have (and in my opinion, most likely would have) no showed and Vince would have been fucked out of his main event for one of the big four PPVs of the year.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 04:54 PM
Furthermore... If you were Vince would you rather had the title change hands on one of the biggest PPVs in a given year or have it change on RAW??
In the midst of a rating battle with WCW? Maybe it wouldn't have been the worst idea.
But who said it even had to be Raw? If he still had a month on the contract, he likely would have been around until the next PPV. Job there. Shake hands. Go to WCW.
Nobody had to break any monitors, punch anybody, spit on anybody, or screw anybody.
Nark Order
12-30-2005, 04:55 PM
You're right in that aspect, but again, Bret DID have creative control. When that was granted to him, Vince knew that something like this could potentially happen. Yes, Vince was his boss, but because of the creative control, it was Bret's right as an employee to decline. If Vince was so paranoid about it, he should have never given him creative control in the first place.
But what I'm saying here is this: Bret leaves the company. Although he still has another month before he goes, Vince has to basically act like Bret isn't there as far as storyline goes. Why build up or care about an angle that won't be there in 2-3 weeks? Once Bret quit, he should have known that all aspects of creative control would leave his hands.
And Bret was trying to force Vince into making a horrible business decision. Either way you put it: Whether Bret didn't want to lose to Michaels at SS or didn't want to lose to him at all.
Scenario #1: Bret doesn't want to lose to Michaels at SS due to personal issues.
How it Screws Vince: There is a major difference between having a title change hands at a PPV and having a title change hands on RAW.
Scenario #2: Bret didn't want to lose to Shawn at all.
How it screws Vince: Michaels was the top player in the game at the time. There was really nobody that could fill his shoes as far as ability, popularity, and lasting appeal. It would've been bad business to put the belt on anybody else at the time.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 04:56 PM
Because had Vince said that then Bret could have (and in my opinion, most likely would have) no showed and Vince would have been fucked out of his main event for one of the big four PPVs of the year.
The original beef wasn't Vince versus Bret. They loved each other.
It was Bret versus Shawn.
If Vince REALLY would have attempted to put his foot down, I think he would have succeeded. Bret didn't hate Vince McMahon (in 1997), and he had a reputation for being fiercely loyal to the company. I don't think he would just NO SHOW a fucking PPV main event.
Anybody Thrilla
12-30-2005, 04:59 PM
But what I'm saying here is this: Bret leaves the company. Although he still has another month before he goes, Vince has to basically act like Bret isn't there as far as storyline goes.
Why would that have to happen? He could have more build up with Michaels on Raw the whole month (and it's not like it would be forced, seeing as to how they would have just main evented the previous PPV with Bret as the victor) and just culminate the whole thing as the next PPV. In Your House, or whatever the fuck.
It doesn't matter if it was Shawn Michaels, Taka Michinoku or Steve Austin that Bret Hart refused to job to. What does matter is that Vince McMahon agreed on a finish and then turned his back on the locker room. He gave his word and the pissed on it. He didn't have to do that at all. Bret legally couldn't go to WCW for another 30 days so if he went on Nitro the next night and threw the belt in the bin or whatever then he would be in breach of contract. Just like if Hulk Hogan showed up on Raw and did the same thing.
And if people think Bret Hart of all people would have done that then they need to pull their heads out of Vince McMahon's arse and their cocks out of Shawn Michaels' mouth.
Kane Knight
12-30-2005, 07:35 PM
I guess that's the difference then. I respect what you'er saying but at the same time, I don't think you refuse to job period. Regardless of where you're at. If you're told by your boss, to job, then you job. You have the right to disagree, but you still do your job. Vince didn't ask Bret to kiss Shawn's ass on national tv, so it's not like Vince was out to destroy Bret's character or out to humiliate Bret, he was merely doing what was best for HIS company.
So when given creative control, you don't have the right to turn down match options?
That seems stupid to me.
zzzzzzzzzzzz
are you lot done yet???
I thought this issue wouldve been dead and buried by now, like this thread
So when given creative control, you don't have the right to turn down match options?
That seems stupid to me.
Especially when Hulk Hogan has the same deal and point blank refused to put over HBK and Vinnie Mac didn't bat an eyelid,
Hired Hitman
12-30-2005, 09:15 PM
Business.
The MAC
12-31-2005, 05:00 PM
You can sort of see both sides of the issue.
Vince should have shut his mouth about breaching brets contract until after Bret jobbed it ( probably to Austin or Shamrock) and then told bret " hey listen..about that 20 years..I was kidding..now fuck off"
Bret was FORCED out of the WWE -and what makes it worse is that on his way out he has to job to a guy who told him that he would never job to bret. Bret even stated that he would job to Michaels after that ...
I think for Brets loyalty and him giving all to the company he should have at least had one last request which was not to lose in his hometown. If bret was allowed to leave the way he wanted what reason would there be for him to take the belt to WCW?
in the end, It was an issue of horrible timing..
Pepsi Man
01-01-2006, 02:00 AM
I've read as many replies as I can bring myself to read, and one more time, it's all the same stuff again, so I'll call it how I see it one more time. I honestly don't disagree with Vince wanting Bret to drop the title to Shawn at Survivor Series, and Bret whining about it WAS pretty lame, but on the same hand, if Vince told Bret he could do the Double Disqualification thing, then that's how it should've gone down, period. If Vince wasn't willing to back down, he shouldn't have, and if Bret didn't like it, well, my backup for that is simple. A forfeit victory for Shawn Michaels.
What could be worse than that? I mean, it's one thing to fight and just come up short, but not even to come out to face your arch nemesis in your "home country" in front of all of your fans? I think that would've hurt Bret far more than being locked in a Sharpshooter and clearly NOT submitting.
You can sort of see both sides of the issue.
I can't.
FourFifty
01-01-2006, 03:24 AM
Talking about Montreal, AGAIN?
Is this a slow news day?
Skippord
01-01-2006, 03:31 AM
I do because I'm a HBK mark
Pepsi Man
01-01-2006, 11:58 AM
I can't.
Yeah, but then again, you can never seem to see Vince's side in anything.
My uninvited and unwanted opinion:
Vince made the big 20 year deal with Bret, and the clause was put in that for the final 30 days of Bret's contract, he has reasonable creative control, so as to avoid being unfairly buried on his way out. Vince made that deal, so he can't piss and moan about the fact that he had to go by the terms of it. It was with Vince's urging (both directly and indirectly) for Bret to go to WCW, thus beginning the period of Bret's "reasonable" control. Vince was in a situation where he wanted to get the belt off Bret, and Bret, as he'd been painted all along as the Canadian Hero, likely felt that it would hurt him significantly to lose to Michaels with the way the match was built, and his personal dislike of Shawn probably helped him not want to lose that one (coming off of things like Bret saying he's lose to Shawn, and Shawn replying with words to the effect of "that's nice, but I wouldn't do it for you"). Bret really didn't do anything wrong from a legal standpoint, as the situation he was put in was incited by and created by Vince himself.
Shawn did one-up Bret, and Vince screwed him. Bret got hosed.
The MAC
01-01-2006, 01:39 PM
SHAWN, EARL HEBNER, VINCE, HHH, JR (porbably), PATT PATERSON, THE DIRECTOR ( he told the vision mixer who which camera to put on air - thus we get an angle where we cant see brets face while in the sharpshooter)
SCREWED BRET HART - in the end it was a dirty thing that a number of guys did against one of their own.
FourFifty
01-01-2006, 01:43 PM
You know, right now I'm starting to miss The Rock... You wanna know why?
<i>IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO SCREWED BRET!!!</i>
It was over 8 years ago, and it looks like relationships have been somewhat mended albeit it'll never be the same. Please, and this one goes out to the whole internet, get over it.
Yeah, but then again, you can never seem to see Vince's side in anything.
Now you know that's a lie.
Zen v.W.o.
01-01-2006, 02:46 PM
Actually I'm not sure Pat was in on it. He's a big Bret sider, and Briscoe even excluded Pat from the whole thing.
Of course he was in on it.
RGWhat316
01-01-2006, 04:34 PM
Even though this topic is done to death, there have been many valid points. My opinion on this is, that Bret was in the wrong. Everyone knew he was leaving, and even though he had creative control, that should have been thrown out. And I really can't stand that Bret always acts like he is the victim, when he brought it on himself. It was documented that he asked Earl Hebner not to screw him in the match, so he knew the possibilities of what was going down.
Also, everyone can say that when Bret was heading to WCW, they were worried about what he would do with the belt. Even though Bret may not take the belt to WCW, when you are Vince McMahon, you have to protect your business and can't take chances like that.
One last thing, if Survivor Series would not have been held in Montreal, I can almost guaran-dam-tee that we would not be talking about this today.
Anybody Thrilla
01-02-2006, 05:11 AM
You know, right now I'm starting to miss The Rock... You wanna know why?
<i>IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO SCREWED BRET!!!</i>
It was over 8 years ago, and it looks like relationships have been somewhat mended albeit it'll never be the same. Please, and this one goes out to the whole internet, get over it.
Hey, that's a nice Rock impression there, but obviously somebody is still thinking about it. Who are you to tell them not to? If you didn't want to hear about it anymore, the thread title alone should have led you not to click on it. Is it a pre-requisite to be a dick around here?
Enjay
01-02-2006, 07:06 AM
I'm in favor of management. Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart were both being immature, even if it was moreso Shawn than Bret. The thing was though that Mr. McMahon was absolutely sure that Shawn would be on Raw the next night. And since Bret was being stubborn, Mr. McMahon lied to him. Was it right? No, but a case could be made that it was necessary.
94 SVT Cobra
01-02-2006, 08:17 AM
everybody screwed everybody.....end of story
Kane Knight
01-02-2006, 10:22 AM
To everyone who's saying "Get over it" and "who cares," Keep in mind this is coming up ONLY because Vince McMahon and the WWE brought it up. Jesus Christ, do you really expect a main event "controversy" to not start discussion?
The MAC
01-02-2006, 10:25 AM
well Paul Heyman believed bret was right, Undertaker thought bret was right and so were nearly all the insiders. If shawn michaels relly and truly believed what he took part in was right then why, after it had happened, did he say to bret " Bret i swear to god I had nothing to do with it, "
While both parties were catalyst to the event that re-defined wrestling, I thing the WWfF holds 90% of the blame with Bret holding the 10%
In the end the biggest loser in the screwjob was Bret Hart.
BTW: in the movie about jesse ventura's life they did the screwjob angle
Kane Knight
01-02-2006, 10:41 AM
everybody screwed everybody.....end of story
Your bitching about neg rep and getting called an idiot would be funnier if you could spell Egypt or its rulers right. :)
To everyone who's saying "Get over it" and "who cares," Keep in mind this is coming up ONLY because Vince McMahon and the WWE brought it up. Jesus Christ, do you really expect a main event "controversy" to not start discussion?
That's why we should all get over it though. If we ignore it, Vince will have to at some point.
Pepsi Man
01-02-2006, 01:22 PM
If shawn michaels relly and truly believed what he took part in was right then why, after it had happened, did he say to bret " Bret i swear to god I had nothing to do with it, "
I'm sorry, but please don't be so gullible. Do you really think Shawn wanted to catch the ass-whooping that Bret undoubtedly was prepared to dish out?
The MAC
01-02-2006, 04:15 PM
oh please. the point here is that Shawn "believes" he did the right thing..why not say so to bret...why GO into the changeroom and lie. He could have just left the arena - without trying to cover anything up.
end result : shawn knew he was doing something that was wrong. He knew he would get his ass kicked because of it...so he did what HBK does best..lie
That's why we should all get over it though. If we ignore it, Vince will have to at some point.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 04:59 PM
I know this has been brought up probably more than any other topic in the history of this forum but since alot of attention has gone to the incident lately, I thought this would be appropriate to bring up. Everybody always goes on and on about how Vince screwed Bret and that it was a shitty thing to do ...blah blah blah. Wait a sec though. Correct me if I'm wrong but part of what started the situation is that Bret refused to job to Michaels for the belt before he left off to WCW. The way I see it, Bret never really had the right to refuse to lose to Michaels in the first place. Whether he hated the guy or not, this seems like an extremely unprofessional thing to do. Especially taking into consideration that it wasn't going to matter anyway once he left off to WCW. That put Vince in a tough spot as far as booking goes. The match was already set up. I say Vince did what he had to do due to the fact that he was dealing with a very stubborn worker. I most likely would've done something similar. Alot of people will say 'oh, it didn't matter what Vince thought to Bret cause he was leaving. bla, blah blah.'. In any other line of work, you are an active contributing employee until your very last day of work. The fact that he refused to do what the boss told him out of dislike for his opponent shows that he didn't care what state he left the company in after his departure. If Bret didn't care about the WWF or Vince then why should Vince have cared about him?
Just the way I see it. Thoughts?
:rofl:
Every time this topic is brought up, I lose even more respect for Shitman Fart and all other Canadians elsewhere.
THIS HAPPENED OVER 8 YEARS AGO. GET OVER IT!
Bret Hart is a douche bag. Shawn Michaels is no saint either, but he spoke the absolute truth when he said that Bret Hart claimed to stand for some moral fiber that really didn't exist in his world, yet chose to judge others.
Bret Hart showed a complete lack of professionalism by refusing to job cleanly to HBK that night. So what if HBK didn't want to job to him a few years earlier?
Does two wrongs make a right? Shouldn't a so-called "moral man" like Bret Hart realize this?
Instead - Bret decided to stoop down to HBK's level.
This is the Sports-Entertainment business people. 99% of it is STORYLINE.
Bret complaining that he didn't want to lose the belt to HBK in Canada because he's a hero there, would be the same as Mel Gibson's Braveheart character stating that he didn't want to die in Scotland, because he's a hero there. :roll:
Lastly - Bret has recently proven that he's an ego-maniac by doing business with the WWE...with his new DVD about to be released. Obviously - Bret cares more about his 'legacy' and ego, as opposed to his own personal integrity.
Even during Owen Hart's death during the funeral, Bret rarely even spoke about Owen. All he could talk about with Vince, was getting the rights to his footage.
As far as Vince and the WWE constantly bringing up Montreal, IT'S GOOD FOR BUSINESS!
The reason why it's constantly brought up in Canada, is because Canadian marks like Zen v.W.o and Rob can't let go of their ridiculous deep rooted grudge. The WWE play upon it.
Outside of Canada, the screwjob is rarely ever brought up.
Bottom line? Vince = terrific business man. He used the Montreal Screwjob as a way of launching the highly successful Attitude era.
Bret Hart seriously needs to move on......or just get a gun and hunt down Vince or something. :roll:
McLegend
01-02-2006, 05:03 PM
In Bret's defense he is always asked about it... He ususally doesn't bring it up first. Bret does want to move on and has even stated he wants to move on. Bret would love Montreal to go away.
I don't blame Vince for bringing up Montreal since he's trying to make money off it.
Montreal will never die.
THIS HAPPENED OVER 8 YEARS AGO. GET OVER IT!
(........)
As far as Vince and the WWE constantly bringing up Montreal, IT'S GOOD FOR BUSINESS!
If those fans did get over it, Vince wouldn't have this as a money maker. That's why the WWE keeps bringing it up. So it doesn't die and they lose all that money.
Bret complaining that he didn't want to lose the belt to HBK in Canada because he's a hero there, would be the same as Mel Gibson's Braveheart character stating that he didn't want to die in Scotland, because he's a hero there.
What kind of fucking stupid analogy is this?
Lastly - Bret has recently proven that he's an ego-maniac by doing business with the WWE...with his new DVD about to be released. Obviously - Bret cares more about his 'legacy' and ego, as opposed to his own personal integrity.
Do wrestlers go through a long career of putting on good to great matches to have to summed up in a DVD called "Bret Hart: Screwed"? If anything Bret took Vince's obsession with Montreal, and changed it to something that would benefit the fans instead of having us listen to the same tired "Bret refused to lose" inaccurate crap that Vince and WWE, not Bret, were going to give us. The fact he gives a rats ass about his career and legacy that he worked hard and long for is actually a positive in someways, you know.
Loose Cannon
01-02-2006, 05:43 PM
Even during Owen Hart's death during the funeral, Bret rarely even spoke about Owen. All he could talk about with Vince, was getting the rights to his footage.
yea, tell me where you heard this? Cause I just laughed my ass off.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 05:53 PM
yea, tell me where you heard this? Cause I just laughed my ass off.
Vince McMahon mentioned this a few years ago (can't remember where and when). He talked about how he mentioned Owen in about ONE sentence at the funeral.
Obviously, I thought nothing of it back then since Vince may have been biased.
Recently on Canada's Off the Record however, Bret basically admitted the same thing in a round-a-bout way. He also talked about meeting Vince at Owen's funeral, and spoke about the footage.....at his brother's funeral.
I mean, good god. This is your own brother's funeral for Christ sakes. :nono:
Disturbed316
01-02-2006, 05:57 PM
That may have been the only time Bret ever spoke to Vince again though. Not to mention it would have stupid.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 06:00 PM
What kind of fucking stupid analogy is this?
An accurate one? :?: Triple H used that same analogy in the past. Since Paul Levesque is a much smarter man than you, me, or Bret, I tend to respect his opinions quite highly.
Do wrestlers go through a long career of putting on good to great matches to have to summed up in a DVD called "Bret Hart: Screwed"? If anything Bret took Vince's obsession with Montreal, and changed it to something that would benefit the fans instead of having us listen to the same tired "Bret refused to lose" inaccurate crap that Vince and WWE, not Bret, were going to give us. The fact he gives a rats ass about his career and legacy that he worked hard and long for is actually a positive in someways, you know.
All this shows, is that Bret is insecure. You don't think that there are already TONS of Bret Hart matches out there on DVD/tape?
Regardless of the Montreal Screw job, Bret will be remembered as a great wrestler. He's not in the same league as HBK, Flair, Kurt Angle, or Eddie Guerrero, but he's great nonetheless. His fans know this.
Bret is doing this DVD for a few reasons:
1) His ego.
2) Money.
Nothing more, nothing less. Did I also mention that by doing this, he's completely compromising his integrity?
For a company that supposedly completely "screwed" him and wrecked his career, Bret seems awfully interested in doing business with the WWE. :roll:
Loose Cannon
01-02-2006, 06:02 PM
Vince McMahon mentioned this a few years ago (can't remember where and when).
lol. am I really suppossed to take you seriously if you believe Vince. He mentioned it after the Funeral on Off the Record
Recently on Canada's Off the Record however, Bret basically admitted the same thing in a round-a-bout way. He also talked about meeting Vince at Owen's funeral, and spoke about the footage.....at his brother's funeral.
I mean, good god. This is your own brother's funeral for Christ sakes. :nono:
Wow, talk about only wanting to hear things you want to hear. I have that show on tape. Tell me, did you watch the entire bit or what? Bret's met with Vince in a park in Calgary after the Funeral. NOT DURING THE FUNERAL. Bret's lawyers requested he not talk about the court case or anything to that extent. Yes, the video footage was brought up, which Bret had been trying to get for months now. Vince said Bret could have everything. Bret called the office a few weeks later and Vince's secratary said Vince said he never recalled any conversation.
Even Lansberry thought Vince was full of shit when Vince came on his show.
Disturbed316
01-02-2006, 06:03 PM
ROFL no way is HBK anywhere as near as good as Bret was.
Disturbed316
01-02-2006, 06:04 PM
Have you ever been to a funeral where ALL you spoke about was the person who died? I can't say I ever have. That would be a whole day of shitty conversation if that happened.
94 SVT Cobra
01-02-2006, 06:06 PM
Your bitching about neg rep and getting called an idiot would be funnier if you could spell Egypt or its rulers right. :)
No i dont "bitch" i dont take crap from pepole who like to give me crap. this is the only forum in the world were everyone has the maturity of 4 year olds towards newbies, like you gotta own us or something, who know what it is, repressed homosexuality, touched as a child, im sure you all have your reasons. I feel like im a personal "Montreal screw job" incident around here, seriously, just let it go. And another thing, everyone chill the fuck out on spelling, bitch about it like teachers?
Loose Cannon
01-02-2006, 06:07 PM
oh and by the way, the only reason Vince met with BRET and agreed on the footage was to get Bret on his side for the court hearings.
Disturbed316
01-02-2006, 06:08 PM
You're right. HBK is nowhere near as good as Bret.......since he's way above him.
Ric Flair says the same thing by the way.
Yeah because Flair is the biggest jobber of all time.
Loose Cannon
01-02-2006, 06:14 PM
lol, I'm starting to think this guy is trolling. He's put over HHH, Flair and HBK in a Bret Hart thread.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 06:18 PM
oh and by the way, the only reason Vince met with BRET and agreed on the footage was to get Bret on his side for the court hearings.
I don't disagree with that. :?:
Vince McMahon is a selfish asshole. Shawn Michaels is also a selfish asshole.
Having said that however......and I know this will break the heart of many Canadians reading this.....but Bret Hart, is also a selfish asshole. Period.
That's the one thing that single-handedly annoys me about Canadians/Bret marks in this whole "Montreal Screw job" scenario.
Bret Hart marks try and make this whole scenario look like it was a losing battle between good and evil. In Bret Hart fans' eyes, evil defeated good. :roll:
In Bret Hart fans' eyes, an almost morally perfect, Ghandi-like human being, was screwed by an unbelievably ruthless and evil businessman.
Lets no kid ourselves here folks. Vince is an asshole. However, he is also a shrewd businessman.
Bret Hart is just as selfish as HBK, Vince McMahon, Hulk Hogan, etc. It just so happened that in Montreal, he got the short end of the stick.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 06:21 PM
lol, I'm starting to think this guy is trolling. He's put over HHH, Flair and HBK in a Bret Hart thread.
I've also called each and every one of those guys assholes. :?:
Just because I think someone is highly intelligent, a good businessman, or a tremendous in-ring performer, doesn't mean that I think they're not a-holes.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 06:21 PM
Yeah because Flair is the biggest jobber of all time.
You've lost me. :?:
How does Ric Flair jobbing in matches, have anything to do with his exceptional in-ring ability?
Speaking of Ric Flair, I love how Bret Hart felt the need to lambast Ric Flair on his web site, after Flair dissed Bret Hart in his book.
If Bret really was as secure as he wants people to believe, don't you think he would have just ignored Flair? Two wrongs make a right eh Bret?
Disturbed316
01-02-2006, 06:24 PM
:ROLLOFTHEYESINTHEDIRECTIONOFSCOTTDELANEY:
You've lost me. :?:
How does Ric Flair jobbing in matches, have anything to do with his exceptional in-ring ability?
Speaking of Ric Flair, I love how Bret Hart felt the need to lambast Ric Flair on his web site, after Flair dissed Bret Hart in his book.
If Bret really was as secure as he wants people to believe, don't you think he would have just ignored Flair? Two wrongs make a right eh Bret?
Wow.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 06:30 PM
Not sure why you've brought Mick Foley into this conversation, but I can comment on him.
Foley had great personality, had excellent in-ring pyschology, and took bumps like none other. Foley is one of my favorite sports-entertainers of all-time.
Foley also genuinely seems like a good hearted, self-less, soul......that genuinely put the company's interests ahead of his own. Guys like Shawn Michaels, Triple H, and even Bret "Ghandi" Hart can learn from this.
Aside from that however, Foley will never be mistaken with Chris Benoit in terms of technical wrestling. But since I feel this way, I obviously have no respect for Foley right? :roll:
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 06:34 PM
Wow.
So I guess Bret was justified in attacking Flair on his website, since Flair attacked him?
By that logic, George Bush is justified for his war in Iraq.
Two wrongs make a right, and if you're not with us........you're against us. :yes: :y:
Disturbed316
01-02-2006, 06:34 PM
Pretty much.
Not sure why you've brought Mick Foley into this conversation, but I can comment on him.
Foley had great personality, had excellent in-ring pyschology, and took bumps like none other. Foley is one of my favorite sports-entertainers of all-time.
Foley also genuinely seems like a good hearted, self-less, soul......that genuinely put the company's interests ahead of his own. Guys like Shawn Michaels, Triple H, and even Bret "Ghandi" Hart can learn from this.
Aside from that however, Foley will never be mistaken with Chris Benoit in terms of technical wrestling. But since I feel this way, I obviously have no respect for Foley right? :roll:
I was just commenting (sarcastically) on how you're basically quoting the Flair and Bret thing. Foley did the same thing. He and Flair had a scuffle where Flair wanted a handshake and Foley declined and made a snide remark on Flair's book. He went as far as almost kicking Flair's ass after Flair punched him. I guess Mick is also insecure, right? :roll:
Flair is an asshole.
So I guess Bret was justified in attacking Flair on his website, since Flair attacked him?
By that logic, George Bush is justified for his war in Iraq.
Two wrongs make a right, and if you're not with us........you're against us. :yes: :y:
Oh no, I'll admit Bret can be a prick about Montreal, just not as much as a prick as most people ("Haters") make him out to be.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 06:40 PM
I guess Mick is also insecure, right? :roll:
You bet he is!
Foley hasn't forgotten about that fateful day. He re-lives it every waking moment.
The people of Long Island are also quite devasted......and chant "You punched Foley!" every time Flair makes his way down there.
Mick Foley has created his own website and has created a section called 'FLAIR'.....so that he can tell his side of his story to the fans....about how Flair punched him in the head.
Furthermore, Foley has taken it upon himself to go on various talk shows to talk about that fateful day.
:yes:
Avenger
01-02-2006, 06:41 PM
Bret needs to get over himself.
He was never as good as Davey Boy Smith, Tom Billington, Eddie Guerrrero, Ric Flair. They would always come above Bret in any "Top 10 Wrestlers" poll in my eyes.
Flair went as far as to write it in his book in the first place. :eek:
Avenger
01-02-2006, 06:42 PM
You bet he is!
Foley hasn't forgotten about that fateful day. He re-lives it every waking moment.
The people of Long Island are also quite devasted......and chant "You punched Foley!" every time Flair makes his way down there.
Mick Foley has created his own website and has created a section called 'FLAIR'.....so that he can tell his side of his story to the fans....about how Flair punched him in the head.
Furthermore, Foley has taken it upon himself to go on various talk shows to talk about that fateful day.
:yes:SHUTHEFUCKUP
Avenger
01-02-2006, 06:43 PM
Every waking moment my ass.
An accurate one? Triple H used that same analogy in the past. Since Paul Levesque is a much smarter man than you, me, or Bret, I tend to respect his opinions quite highly.
So Triple H said that...
Bret complaining that he didn't want to lose the belt to HBK in Canada because he's a hero there, would be the same as Mel Gibson's Braveheart character stating that he didn't want to die in Scotland, because he's a hero there.
If you think comparing film to wrestling is accurate, then you're a moron, and so is HHH if he takes that analogy seriously. The wrestling world is a continual ongoing thing. Bret was going to WCW, and not losing in Canada after he'd been built up as Canada's star was a decision based on a role he was going to continue on for the rest of his career. You want to compare? How many people love the Bret Hart (played by Bret Hart) on WWF TV, and how many love the William Wallace (played by Mel Gibson) in Braveheart. Do you see where there's a difference? People don't look at acting the same way as they do with wrestling, they don't take William Wallace signs to the movie theatre. People in Scotland don't give a fuck about William Wallace played by Mel Gibson, and he didn't have a career as William Wallace in Scotland after the movie was finished.
Bret is doing this DVD for a few reasons:
1) His ego.
2) Money.
As opposed to what WWE was making Screwed for? Money and ego?
I'm pretty sure money wasn't an issue for Bret. Ego maybe, in the sense that he wants his career to mean more than one incident in Montreal that Vince still can't get over.
Also, Flair's receipts, laughably comparing Mick Foley to Warrior and Beefcake, are far more childish and ego driven than anything Bret has done. But I guess it makes THEM in the wrong for making a comment on how people slander them unfairly
BUT VINCE IS A SHREWED BUSINESS MAN! ITS DIFFERENT FOR HIM!
Enjay
01-02-2006, 07:51 PM
You bet he is!
Foley hasn't forgotten about that fateful day. He re-lives it every waking moment.
The people of Long Island are also quite devasted......and chant "You punched Foley!" every time Flair makes his way down there.
Mick Foley has created his own website and has created a section called 'FLAIR'.....so that he can tell his side of his story to the fans....about how Flair punched him in the head.
Furthermore, Foley has taken it upon himself to go on various talk shows to talk about that fateful day.
:yes:LOL
Excellance of Execution
01-02-2006, 08:16 PM
Bret needs to get over himself.
He was never as good as Davey Boy Smith, Tom Billington, Eddie Guerrrero, Ric Flair. They would always come above Bret in any "Top 10 Wrestlers" poll in my eyes.
Are your eyes crossed?:lol:
Davey Boy Smith: Not even in the same league as Bret Hart. Especially when it comes to technical wrestling. He was a good power wrestler, but thats about it.
Dynamite Kid: Very Good tecnical wrestler, but wasn't around long enough to evolve the way Bret did. They were very similar when they first came around, but Bret adapted and Billington disapeared.
Ric Flair: Watch his matches, they are practically identical for the last twenty years. He was a very good heal early in the eighties, but he is WAY overated.
Eddie Guerrero: The only one you listed that i agree with.
Kane Knight
01-02-2006, 11:17 PM
That's why we should all get over it though. If we ignore it, Vince will have to at some point.
I'm not excusing it, just saying why it comes up.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:25 PM
I'm not excusing it, just saying why it comes up.
It comes up for 3 reasons, and 3 reasons only:
1) Bret Hart holds a deep grudge, and can't get over something that happened 8 years ago.
2) Some Canadian fans like to cheer "You Screwed Bret!" chants at live events because its fashionable, while others like The avenger, Zen v.W.o., and Rob are grudge carrying goof balls themselves..which is why they relate so well to Threat Fart.
3) Vince McMahon knows that any Bret Hart reference will garner fan interest. Hence, Vince continues to bring up the Montreal Screw job in certain areas, because it garners great heat.
Kane Knight
01-02-2006, 11:31 PM
I am retarded for one reason and one reason only:
I'm pulling shit out of my ass
Fixed. :)
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:31 PM
So Triple H said that...
If you think comparing film to wrestling is accurate, then you're a moron, and so is HHH if he takes that analogy seriously. The wrestling world is a continual ongoing thing. Bret was going to WCW, and not losing in Canada after he'd been built up as Canada's star was a decision based on a role he was going to continue on for the rest of his career.
So you're basically implying two things with your post:
1) Wrestling IS real.
2) If Bret Hart jobbed to HBK in Canada, Bret Hart would lose respect amongst Canadian fans. :roll:
Give me a break.
This is the Sports-ENTERTAINMENT business.
Bret "The Hitman" Hart is a wrestling CHARACTER.
By refusing to do the job to HBK at Survivor Series that year, Bret basically told the world that two wrongs make a right. HBK didn't put me over, so I'm not putting him over. Period.
But hey, Bret's a pretty good business man to I guess. He's milked the Montreal Screw job, Owen's death, etc. for all its worth as well....which is why people like you and I continue to speak about it.
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:31 PM
You're right. HBK is nowhere near as good as Bret.......since he's way above him.
Ric Flair says the same thing by the way.
Flair is a senile old bastidge. He's been up the Kliq's butts ever since he got into the wwe earlier this decade.
Kane Knight
01-02-2006, 11:34 PM
So you're basically implying two things with your post:
1) Wrestling IS real.
No, simply that it's a different entity. Kind of like how music and movies are different. They're both entertainment.
OR how horror and comedy are diffeent.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:35 PM
Fixed. :)
Sure buddy.
Give me a buzz when you actually have something to say.
Or better yet! I can hold an 8 year grudge against Kane Knight because he thinks I'm retarded, and negative repped me. Excuse me while I go create my own website, create a section called 'Kane Knight', and then go on Off The Record and talk to Michael Landsberg about how Kane Knight is morally inferior to me.
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:36 PM
Are your eyes crossed?:lol:
Davey Boy Smith: Not even in the same league as Bret Hart. Especially when it comes to technical wrestling. He was a good power wrestler, but thats about it.
Dynamite Kid: Very Good tecnical wrestler, but wasn't around long enough to evolve the way Bret did. They were very similar when they first came around, but Bret adapted and Billington disapeared.
Ric Flair: Watch his matches, they are practically identical for the last twenty years. He was a very good heal early in the eighties, but he is WAY overated.
Eddie Guerrero: The only one you listed that i agree with.
Actually you under-rated Davey. Davey had a very good mix in the ring, and more people should try to remember that. He's no slouch at all when it came to technical wrestling.
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:37 PM
So you're basically implying two things with your post:
1) Wrestling IS real.
2) If Bret Hart jobbed to HBK in Canada, Bret Hart would lose respect amongst Canadian fans. :roll:
Give me a break.
This is the Sports-ENTERTAINMENT business.
Bret "The Hitman" Hart is a wrestling CHARACTER.
By refusing to do the job to HBK at Survivor Series that year, Bret basically told the world that two wrongs make a right. HBK didn't put me over, so I'm not putting him over. Period.
But hey, Bret's a pretty good business man to I guess. He's milked the Montreal Screw job, Owen's death, etc. for all its worth as well....which is why people like you and I continue to speak about it.
How has he milked Owens death??:wtf:
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:37 PM
Flair is a senile old bastidge. He's been up the Kliq's butts ever since he got into the wwe earlier this decade.
Ric Flair also told people that he hopes his son can grow up to be like Kurt Angle one day.
I guess Flair only said that because he's up the Kliq's butt eh?
It's all about politics!
moron.
Kane Knight
01-02-2006, 11:38 PM
Sure buddy.
Give me a buzz when you actually have something to say.
Or better yet! I can hold an 8 year grudge against Kane Knight because he thinks I'm retarded, and negative repped me. Excuse me while I go create my own website, create a section called 'Kane Knight', and then go on Off The Record and talk to Michael Landsberg about how Kane Knight is morally inferior to me.
Sadly, that argument held more footing than your original; pointlessness.
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:39 PM
Ric Flair also told people that he hopes his son can grow up to be like Kurt Angle one day.
I guess Flair only said that because he's up the Kliq's butt eh?
It's all about politics!
moron.
lol, it IS politics. Hence why he'd be up the asshole of a HHH for instance.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:40 PM
How has he milked Owens death??:wtf:
How about the fact that after Owen's death, Bret actually had the audacity to use Owen's death to further lambast Vince...for his own selfish reasons.
I'm not saying that Bret wasn't saddened by Owen's death. I'm broaching a sensitive subject area here, and I apologize if I offended you...or others.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:44 PM
lol, it IS politics. Hence why he'd be up the asshole of a HHH for instance.
Then why didn't Flair say something like, "I hope my kid grows up to be like HBK and HHH one day?"
Why do you automatically assume that Flair is sucking up to the kliq when he bashes Bret Hart? Does it not occur to you that the man may actually have a point?
Threat Fart DID NOT draw worth a dime. That's a FACT.
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:45 PM
Bret thought it was a lame idea all meant for one moment where Owen stumbles once arriving in the ring. I can see why he'd lambast the reason for Owens untimely demise, but I dont know that he outright blamed Vince. I'm sure he figured they were careless a bit and was angered by this. Totally justifiable, but it's not like he pursued Vince with owens death over his head.
He just supported Martha.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:45 PM
Sadly, that argument held more footing than your original; pointlessness.
So in other words, Kane Knight didn't screw Scott Delaney. Scott Delaney screwed Scott Delaney. :'(
Don't worry though - if you ever step foot in my household, my parents will boo you out of the building!
McLegend
01-02-2006, 11:46 PM
O not the Bret Hart didn't draw line. Bret Hart was a draw. Unless you are Jeff Jarrett you don't win a title five times without being a draw.
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:49 PM
Then why didn't Flair say something like, "I hope my kid grows up to be like HBK and HHH one day?"
Why do you automatically assume that Flair is sucking up to the kliq when he bashes Bret Hart? Does it not occur to you that the man may actually have a point?
Threat Fart DID NOT draw worth a dime. That's a FACT.
Right, when Flair starts selling out 82,000 seat arenas and working in front of crowds like the wwe always did, as compared to most of the times when Flair was champ working in the nwa, then maybe Flair can talk about that and sound credible.
Bret was a surefire WORLDWIDE champion. The guy was immensely over, not just in the us, but everywhere else, and that is why the wwe was pretty damn succesful and huge in other parts of the world, and guess what, it was the Hitman that was the featured star for these tours. TV ratings and ppv draws arent the only thing you go by, as the entire business was in a funk back then for those stats. How can you blame Bret when he's the one stuck wrestling Lafitte and Isaac Yankem?
McLegend
01-02-2006, 11:49 PM
Delany, we don't see eye to eye on things, but I think you are an excellent poster. Keep up the good work
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:51 PM
I'm sure he figured they were careless a bit and was angered by this. Totally justifiable, but it's not like he pursued Vince with owens death over his head.
Did Bret ever apologize for his actions? No. And yet this is the same guy that cries because HBK never apologized to him. :roll:
The bottom line is this. Bret is not Mohandas Ghandi.....regardless of how he tries to portray himself to other Canadians. Bret isn't a 100% dick like Vince McMahon, but he's no saint either.
In terms of selfishness, Bret ranks right up there with HBK, Hulk Hogan, Triple H, etc.
HBK said it best.
"Bret Hart claims to stand for some moral fiber that doesn't exist in his real world....yet he stands in judgment of others."
Those poignant words from Shawn are more damaging to Bret than any Sweet Chin Music, Sharpshooter, kick to the head, or screw job could ever do. :y:
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:51 PM
O not the Bret Hart didn't draw line. Bret Hart was a draw. Unless you are Jeff Jarrett you don't win a title five times without being a draw.
Exactly. The champs at the time in the mid 90's were all draws, as they were the one's drawing as best as they could with what was possible back then.
The business fluctuates, and basically, you see wrestling as a whole lose and gain popularity, mostly due to the product, and not just based solely on who is the champ. No man will draw Attitude type numbers if the product and characters are horrid.
Scott Delaney
01-02-2006, 11:52 PM
Delany, we don't see eye to eye on things, but I think you are an excellent poster. Keep up the good work
thank-you legend.
Speaking of legends.....
Kane Knight
01-02-2006, 11:52 PM
So in other words, Kane Knight didn't screw Scott Delaney. Scott Delaney screwed Scott Delaney. :'(
Don't worry though - if you ever step foot in my household, my parents will boo you out of the building!
:lol: It'd be funnier if you had something you were actually debating.
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:54 PM
Did Bret ever apologize for his actions? No. And yet this is the same guy that cries because HBK never apologized to him. :roll:
The bottom line is this. Bret is not Mohandas Ghandi.....regardless of how he tries to portray himself to other Canadians. Bret isn't a 100% dick like Vince McMahon, but he's no saint either.
In terms of selfishness, Bret ranks right up there with HBK, Hulk Hogan, Triple H, etc.
HBK said it best.
"Bret Hart claims to stand for some moral fiber that doesn't exist in his real world....yet he stands in judgment of others."
Those poignant words from Shawn are more damaging to Bret than any Sweet Chin Music, Sharpshooter, kick to the head, or screw job could ever do. :y:
I dont see what Bret has to apologize for, in relation to the screwjob incident. imo, he did nothing wrong.
Now if you are referring to backstage shit that happened among them throughout 1996 and 97, HBK doesnt apologize for that, and I doubt Bret will either.
McLegend
01-02-2006, 11:55 PM
LOL Heyman
Zen v.W.o.
01-02-2006, 11:56 PM
Zen my dear friend
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
You have been punk'd! :) ;)
Thanks for keeping it a secret LC. :D
~Heyman.
p.s. :heart:
lol, you bitch! I was prepared to battle as long as possible.:D
So you're basically implying two things with your post:
1) Wrestling IS real.
2) If Bret Hart jobbed to HBK in Canada, Bret Hart would lose respect amongst Canadian fans.
Did I say wrestling was real? No. I said that you saying Movies and Wrestling have exactly the same rules attatched makes you a fucking goof. Don't put words in my mouth.
I never said Bret would lose the respect of Canadian fans, I said that Canada, for Bret, was the market where he was most effective and most popular, so possibly hurting a good thing business wise made no sense, seeing as he was heading to WCW with that popularity in place.
This is the Sports-ENTERTAINMENT business.
Bret "The Hitman" Hart is a wrestling CHARACTER.
No shit! You fail to realise you're own point - it's a character in a business that Bret felt he had to protect, because the character, in this business, is what makes him money.
Just John
01-03-2006, 02:17 PM
Yeah, but Bret Gave Shawn a hell of a lotta shit backstage WAY before the incident
:rofl:
Bret complaining that he didn't want to lose the belt to HBK in Canada because he's a hero there, would be the same as Mel Gibson's Braveheart character stating that he didn't want to die in Scotland, because he's a hero there. :roll:
Mel Gibson's braveheart character? You fucking idiot!
The reason why it's constantly brought up in Canada, is because Canadian marks like Zen v.W.o and Rob can't let go of their ridiculous deep rooted grudge. The WWE play upon it.
Outside of Canada, the screwjob is rarely ever brought up.
I'm not Canadian. And it is very much brought up on outside Canada. Every time Vince brings it up, it causes worldwide conversation.
And Shawn was a total dick, what's that gotta do with anything?
It comes up for 3 reasons, and 3 reasons only:
1) Bret Hart holds a deep grudge, and can't get over something that happened 8 years ago.
2) Some Canadian fans like to cheer "You Screwed Bret!" chants at live events because its fashionable, while others like The avenger, Zen v.W.o., and Rob are grudge carrying goof balls themselves..which is why they relate so well to Threat Fart.
3) Vince McMahon knows that any Bret Hart reference will garner fan interest. Hence, Vince continues to bring up the Montreal Screw job in certain areas, because it garners great heat.
You are seriously mentally ill. Although I shouldn't be arguing with people who play fake internet characters on message boards so I blame myself really.
1- Bret has mentioned a ton of times he doesn't hold a grudge.
2- Again, I'm not Canadian. Never cheered "you screwed Bret" at a WWE show either.
3-He should be embarrassed that the most popular guy in the WWE today is a 48 year old who doesn't even work for them any more and hasn't had a match for the company in 9 years.
And did you know that Bret Hart wanted to do his DVD without any mention of Montreal? Guys like Dave Meltzer, Paul Jay (Wrestling With Shadows) and Carl DeMarco (WWE Canada) had to convince Bret to even do the project with Montreal being mentioned since he was so insistant on it not being in the DVD that he was refusing to do it if it was mentioned.
And if you watched the DVD, you'd know he is clearly over Montreal. And if you haven't then check this - Bret Hart is a 48 year old man who has had 8 concussions in 3 weeks which ended his career. He divorced his wife. He then lost his closest brother in a tragic accident he shouldn't have even been doing. Then he lost both his parents and broke away from his own family. Then he had a stroke which doctors told him he would struggle to walk again. He doesn't watch wrestling anymore. He has a new wife and moved out of North America and has absolutely ZERO interest playing a fake wrestling character again. If he had interest, he'd have been on WWE TV years ago. And he still only speaks of Montreal when people bring it up to him (and even then it's as brief as it can be).
Yeah he needs to get over Montreal though :roll:
As for him taking being a hero seriously. Fair play to him. It's about time some people in the public eye remembered kids look up to them.
Yeh, I never got why people knocked a guy for taking that role seriously, when people get ragged on hard if kids look up to them and they're drugged up losers in reality...
Just John
01-04-2006, 12:23 PM
Shawn says in his book that Vince wanted to take the blame for it, and was kinda using Shawn for bait, Shawn knew about it, and kinda helped Vince slightly. But then again leading up to the event, Bret was being VERY unprofessionable and was owed it. And Shawn being a christian I dont think he'd lie, he said that when he told Bret he lied, but thats the first time he ever had.
Either way, its over with, whats happened has happened and Bret was going to WCW anyway so it doesnt make a major difference.
And Shawn being a christian I dont think he'd lie
LMFAO
I'm a huge Shawn fan, but don't believe much of what he says in his book. He also says that Bret wasn't in the Gorilla position after Mania 12. The Bret DVD shows that...
a) Shawn told Hebner to tell Bret to "get the fuck out the ring, this is my time in here"
b) Bret was filmed going straight from the ring to the locker room. Which means either Bret was pissed at what Shawn said and was legit ticked off by that, or, more likely, he was filmed going back intentionally for the storyline, and he wasn't supposed to be in the Gorilla position.
Only one example there...
Just John
01-04-2006, 01:15 PM
Mabye you're right, I mean, the book is the only full account of things Ive heard about the Montreal Screwjob, and so its the only thing I can really relate to for this, but either way, like I said its all over and done with now. It doesnt matter whether Shawn screwed Bret, Vince screwed bret, or Bret screwed Bret, Bret got screwed and whether he had it coming or not is the controversy. But its over with now and I guess not much can be done.
Nowhere Man
01-04-2006, 02:14 PM
How about the fact that after Owen's death, Bret actually had the audacity to use Owen's death to further lambast Vince...for his own selfish reasons.
So being angry at a man whose hairbrained idea for a stunt got his brother killed is selfish?
Evolution
01-04-2006, 03:15 PM
According to Foley's first book, the first thing HBK said when he got backstage after the Montreal match was "There's no way I'm accepting his fucking belt like this!", threw it down and walked to the locker room. HHH picked it up and brought it to the locker room for Shawn. Was Foley lying?
Also, saw a Bret Shoot Interview on TWC a while back, and he was being a complete dick over the Owen incident. He was acting like Vence had pushed Owen off the catwalk or something. Saying things like "Yeah, let's drop little Stephanie or Shane off the roof and see if they continue the show".
Although dropping Stephanie 50 feet is not nessesarily a bad idea, Bret is missing the important part of that Blue Blazer stunt.
Vince had asked Owen if he would mind doing it. Owen said he had no problem with it. With abseiling equipment, you know the risks. Unfortunately, Owen fell victim to them.
P.S. Bret Hart is an over-hyped crybaby pussy. Shawn Michaels is innovative, and puts in 100% wherever he has matches. By the time 1997 came around, Bret was just going through the motions, having the same match day-in, day-out. He has so much in common with Ric Flair in that respect. They could have been great friends if they wren't dicks to each other.
Loose Cannon
01-04-2006, 03:34 PM
According to Foley's first book, the first thing HBK said when he got backstage after the Montreal match was "There's no way I'm accepting his fucking belt like this!", threw it down and walked to the locker room. HHH picked it up and brought it to the locker room for Shawn. Was Foley lying?
I swear people just get dumber and dumber. No Foley did not lie. That was TRUE. Now ask yourslef, why do you think Shawn screamed that in the locker room? Just think for 1 minute. Answer: Because he was HIDING the fact that he was in on it. It's called "not wanting to be caught." Hence him lying to Bret in the lockeroom.
Vince had asked Owen if he would mind doing it. Owen said he had no problem with it. With abseiling equipment, you know the risks. Unfortunately, Owen fell victim to them.
Would like to kow where you heard Owen had no problem with it. Because it's been published in a lot of material that Owen did not want to do the stunt and had a bad feeling about it.
P.S. Bret Hart is an over-hyped crybaby pussy. Shawn Michaels is innovative, and puts in 100% wherever he has matches. By the time 1997 came around, Bret was just going through the motions, having the same match day-in, day-out. He has so much in common with Ric Flair in that respect. They could have been great friends if they wren't dicks to each other.
Shut up and quit bringing your personal feelings into a discussion that you started off with "facts." Makes your comments seem less valid.
McLegend
01-04-2006, 03:43 PM
Persoanl feelings about who is better shouldn't be brought into this discussion. That is a subject for it's own thread.
Kane Knight
01-04-2006, 03:53 PM
And Shawn being a christian I dont think he'd lie
LO f'ing L
That was too funny.
Christians Lie. They Cheat. They Steal. They Murder. They rape. They eat tacos from an off-ramp hobo.
Kane Knight
01-04-2006, 04:03 PM
I gotta say, if losing so much of your family to the business that incapacitated you, at the hands of the same folks that screwed you makes you a pussy, we should all definitely aspire to be more like pussies.
I love how people call him a crybaby when he's dealt with more adversity than most folks on this forum ever will, and handled it with more dignity than most ever could.
I know personal feelings aren't really what this thread is about, but jeez. Try not to be so stupid when coming up with excuses to snipe the man. Bret's moved on better than most fans on either side of the debate.
Scott Delaney
01-04-2006, 05:08 PM
FACT: Threat "the shitman" Fart acted highly inappropriately when Owen Hart passed away. Not only did he basically accuse Vince McMahon/WWE of killing his brother, but also used Owen's death to further prolong his own agenda (attack Vince, attack the WWE, continue to talk about the screw job, etc.). In a sense, Bret Hart disrespected Owen. Ric Flair says the same thing.
FACT: By refusing to do the job to HBK, Bret basically admitted that two wrongs make a right. HBK refused to job to me, so I'll refuse to job to him. By doing this, Bret proved that he was no better than HBK in terms of moral character. Bret chose NOT to take the high road. He chose to go down to HBK's level. Fact.
FACT: Bret doesn't understand the difference between real life and sports-entertainment. Bret felt that if he jobbed in Canada, he'd lose the respect of Canadian fans. Give me a break. Even if Threat Fart had done the right thing and jobbed cleanly, he'd still be an (overrated) icon in Canada.
FACT: Most of the people who sympathize deeply for Bret 'Ghandi' Hart, are people who are whiners themselves. Think about the type of people that defend Bret on here. Lara Emily, Rob, and Kane Knight are all grudge-carrying whiners who are bitter against the world. They use Bret Hart's screwjob as a way of venting their own personal bitterness in life.
Ever heard the saying, "Birds of a feather stick together?"
FACT: Bret Hart is a very very good wrestler, but he is NOT a great one. As great as his technical ability was, the man had no aerial ability whatsoever. Shawn Michaels on the other hand, did. Big time. Bret Hart could take a medicore wrestler, and make him look like a million bucks. Shawn Michaels on the other hand, could take a piece of shit and make him look like a million bucks.
Bret then has the audacity to accuse HBK of being a clown because he "skins the cat" during his matches, and uses aerial moves. :roll: Bret then accuses Flair of using unrealistic moves during his matches, and also claims that he doesn't sell moves well. :roll:
Again - a JOKE. It's just another example of Shitman Fart lashing out.
For one thing - this is the SPORTS-ENTERTAINMENT business. Who cares if HBK skins the cat during his matches? Who cares if Flair pretends to get 'knocked out' and falls to the ground?
THE FANS ENJOY IT!
Maybe if Bret actually realized that this is the sports-entertainment business.....a place where showmanship is a positive, he wouldn't sound like a complete tool.
But then again........maybe if Bret realized this was the sports-entertainment business, he wouldn't have thrown such a hissy fit over the idea of jobbing in Canada....in fear of losing the respect of his fans.
FACT: Bret Hart clearly has NOT gotten over the Montreal screw job. Why else would he speak about it in almost every single interview? If he really had gotten over it, don't you think he'd say something like, "You know what......I'd prefer to not talk about Montreal anymore. It happened 8 years ago, and I think we should move forward."
NO! Instead - Bret continues attack Shawn Michaels, etc. in these interviews. That right there is the single greatest proof that Bret Hart has NOT gotten over anything.
-He uses his column in Calgary to basically remind his fans how great he is.
-Bret actually became a bigger icon in Canada from the Montreal Screw job (as sad as this is). Bret has milked it for all its worth (another reason why Threat Fart won't let Montreal go). Bret may never actually bring up the Montreal Screw job in conversations himself, but he jumps at the opportunity to speak about it when he does (knowing that his retarded fan base will do it for him). Again - it's a good business tactic by Brett, but the morality of it is questionable. With this in mind, Bret is NO different from the people that he chastises (Vince, HBK, etc.).
Don't kid yourselves people.
In the late 90's, Bret stated that he would never to business with the WWE ever again.
Fast forward a few years later, and he's creating a DVD with them....for money.
When Bret eventually does decide to step foot within the WWE ring again (and you know it will happen) it won't be for the fans...........it will be for his own ego and his own pay check.
The only way this won't happen, is if Threat Fart decides to hang himself....and join the rest of the Fart Foundation in heaven.
I love how people call him a crybaby when he's dealt with more adversity than most folks on this forum ever will, and handled it with more dignity than most ever could.
More dignity? Broadcasting his own personal struggles with the rest of the world (for attention and ego) qualifies as dignity?!?!
Please.
Rob
3-He should be embarrassed that the most popular guy in the WWE today is a 48 year old who doesn't even work for them any more and hasn't had a match for the company in 9 years.
Most popular guy in the WWE eh?
I'm sure Mr. Hulk Hogan, The Rock, and Austin might have something to say about that.
You Bret Hart marks are so biased in your love for Bret 'Ghandi' Hart, that you fail to see any logic whatsoever.
Enjay
01-04-2006, 05:34 PM
Ummmmm......uhhhhhhhh......I ummm ya know.......what he said.
CharismaInjection
01-04-2006, 05:45 PM
Well, I think Vince & Michaels were sure in their heads that Hart was going to dump the belt in the bin when he got to WCW.
Bret Hart is a very very good wrestler, but he is NOT a great one. As great as his technical ability was, the man had no aerial ability whatsoever.
I lost all respect for any of your claims right there.
Also, do you really thing "Threat 'Shitman' Fart" is witty? This has gotta be some 11 year old kid with ideas and comments like this...
Schoenauer
01-04-2006, 06:52 PM
This "Threat Fart" thing is so first grade humor... I wonder if Scott just hates Canadians because they're better than him.
Kane Knight
01-04-2006, 07:24 PM
This "Threat Fart" thing is so first grade humor... I wonder if Scott just hates Canadians because they're better than him.We are:cool: (Hey, if Rob gets to be Canadian, so do I, dammi!)
The MAC
01-06-2006, 01:03 PM
EXPLAIN the WM12 thing about bret not being in gorrilla position/.what does that term mean ?
thanks you
LMFAO
I'm a huge Shawn fan, but don't believe much of what he says in his book. He also says that Bret wasn't in the Gorilla position after Mania 12. The Bret DVD shows that...
a) Shawn told Hebner to tell Bret to "get the fuck out the ring, this is my time in here"
b) Bret was filmed going straight from the ring to the locker room. Which means either Bret was pissed at what Shawn said and was legit ticked off by that, or, more likely, he was filmed going back intentionally for the storyline, and he wasn't supposed to be in the Gorilla position.
Only one example there...
Well they were meant to do an angle where Bret and Shawn would feud so the idea was Bret would leave without showering and not meet with Shawn after the match to build on it. They screwed over Bret again there though because they dropped the angle part and made out Bret is a dick. Dude is hardly gonna go from LA to Calgary still dressed in his wrestling singlet though is he?
And I'm officially ignoring all comments by a certain prick here.
Scott Delaney
01-15-2006, 06:09 PM
BUMP!
Seriously - I can't see ANYONE defending Bret Hart after the thorough shit-kicking I gave with my posts.
Scott Delaney
01-15-2006, 06:11 PM
If ANYONE on here can successfully negate anything that I said in my last few post (the "Sweet Chin music to Bret Hart fans" post), then I'll concede defeat.
Until that time however - I have ZERO reason to believe that anything I have said in this thread is false.
ALEAYALEALHLAELALAYELAHALAHA!!!!
FourFifty
01-15-2006, 10:56 PM
Everytime an internet fan talks about Montreal and Bret Hart a fairy drops down DEAD!
Kane Knight
01-15-2006, 11:25 PM
Captain Dick nor Jesus Christ could not help my faith.
Funky Fly
01-16-2006, 12:40 AM
Heyman, you bastard.
ddpBANG
01-16-2006, 10:41 AM
Everytime an internet fan talks about Montreal, a Bret Hart family member drops down DEAD!
:nono:
Kane Knight
01-16-2006, 11:50 AM
I'm dancing on the water, looking for the light...
The MAC
01-17-2006, 06:02 AM
maybe teddy hart will be next
Scott Delaney
01-20-2006, 01:22 PM
FACT: Threat "the shitman" Fart acted highly inappropriately when Owen Hart passed away. Not only did he basically accuse Vince McMahon/WWE of killing his brother, but also used Owen's death to further prolong his own agenda (attack Vince, attack the WWE, continue to talk about the screw job, etc.). In a sense, Bret Hart disrespected Owen. Ric Flair says the same thing.
FACT: By refusing to do the job to HBK, Bret basically admitted that two wrongs make a right. HBK refused to job to me, so I'll refuse to job to him. By doing this, Bret proved that he was no better than HBK in terms of moral character. Bret chose NOT to take the high road. He chose to go down to HBK's level. Fact.
FACT: Bret doesn't understand the difference between real life and sports-entertainment. Bret felt that if he jobbed in Canada, he'd lose the respect of Canadian fans. Give me a break. Even if Threat Fart had done the right thing and jobbed cleanly, he'd still be an (overrated) icon in Canada.
FACT: Most of the people who sympathize deeply for Bret 'Ghandi' Hart, are people who are whiners themselves. Think about the type of people that defend Bret on here. Lara Emily, Rob, and Kane Knight are all grudge-carrying whiners who are bitter against the world. They use Bret Hart's screwjob as a way of venting their own personal bitterness in life.
Ever heard the saying, "Birds of a feather stick together?"
FACT: Bret Hart is a very very good wrestler, but he is NOT a great one. As great as his technical ability was, the man had no aerial ability whatsoever. Shawn Michaels on the other hand, did. Big time. Bret Hart could take a medicore wrestler, and make him look like a million bucks. Shawn Michaels on the other hand, could take a piece of shit and make him look like a million bucks.
Bret then has the audacity to accuse HBK of being a clown because he "skins the cat" during his matches, and uses aerial moves. :roll: Bret then accuses Flair of using unrealistic moves during his matches, and also claims that he doesn't sell moves well. :roll:
Again - a JOKE. It's just another example of Shitman Fart lashing out.
For one thing - this is the SPORTS-ENTERTAINMENT business. Who cares if HBK skins the cat during his matches? Who cares if Flair pretends to get 'knocked out' and falls to the ground?
THE FANS ENJOY IT!
Maybe if Bret actually realized that this is the sports-entertainment business.....a place where showmanship is a positive, he wouldn't sound like a complete tool.
But then again........maybe if Bret realized this was the sports-entertainment business, he wouldn't have thrown such a hissy fit over the idea of jobbing in Canada....in fear of losing the respect of his fans.
FACT: Bret Hart clearly has NOT gotten over the Montreal screw job. Why else would he speak about it in almost every single interview? If he really had gotten over it, don't you think he'd say something like, "You know what......I'd prefer to not talk about Montreal anymore. It happened 8 years ago, and I think we should move forward."
NO! Instead - Bret continues attack Shawn Michaels, etc. in these interviews. That right there is the single greatest proof that Bret Hart has NOT gotten over anything.
-He uses his column in Calgary to basically remind his fans how great he is.
-Bret actually became a bigger icon in Canada from the Montreal Screw job (as sad as this is). Bret has milked it for all its worth (another reason why Threat Fart won't let Montreal go). Bret may never actually bring up the Montreal Screw job in conversations himself, but he jumps at the opportunity to speak about it when he does (knowing that his retarded fan base will do it for him). Again - it's a good business tactic by Brett, but the morality of it is questionable. With this in mind, Bret is NO different from the people that he chastises (Vince, HBK, etc.).
Don't kid yourselves people.
In the late 90's, Bret stated that he would never to business with the WWE ever again.
Fast forward a few years later, and he's creating a DVD with them....for money.
When Bret eventually does decide to step foot within the WWE ring again (and you know it will happen) it won't be for the fans...........it will be for his own ego and his own pay check.
The only way this won't happen, is if Threat Fart decides to hang himself....and join the rest of the Fart Foundation in heaven.
More dignity? Broadcasting his own personal struggles with the rest of the world (for attention and ego) qualifies as dignity?!?!
Please.
Most popular guy in the WWE eh?
I'm sure Mr. Hulk Hogan, The Rock, and Austin might have something to say about that.
You Bret Hart marks are so biased in your love for Bret 'Ghandi' Hart, that you fail to see any logic whatsoever.
BUMP!
C'mon Fart fans. I expected a better challenge than this.
Funky Fly
01-20-2006, 02:00 PM
No.
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