Bob Holly interview

[blake639raw]

http://www.4w-wrestling.com/newsline/8100.shtml

I thought this quote was interesting:


As far as Tough Enough and whether there should have been a fourth season, Holly feels that there are some pros and cons to the idea. It was good entertainment, did a good rating for MTV, and if they did another one, he would like to do it if he isn’t involved in anything, but there’s a lot of stuff that he disagrees with. “Some of the cast members that do win that clearly aren’t in the same league that we are, they don’t have to pay their dues. Yeah, for ten weeks, they go through a lot of training and stuff like that,” he explains, “but they didn’t go through the years of trying to make it, sleeping in your car, or driving for three, four, five, six hours and making no money. Some of these guys that are in the business now just have everything handed to them and I disagree with that. That kind of irritates me a lot because there’s some of the guys in our locker room that are like that and believe me, if I get a chance to be in the ring with them, I will eat them alive.”

-------------------------

What an insecure, old man. I wish Brock would have beat his ass again, or Benoit would teach him a thing or two.

[Head]

Just cause he had it hard means everybody else should forever. **** advancing.

On a side note, I think social security should be done away with, my great great grandfather didn't have that luxury.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, and we should also bring back laws that made blacks equal, and take back the right for women to vote...

Why not? living in the past seems to make everything better.

[samichna]

Wow he sure is a tough guy.

[JeremyTB29]

Sounds like Sour grapes by Holly because he can't make it big in the WWE.

I don't believe in having to pay your dues.If you are talented enough you should make it.It's Holly's problem that he isn't that talented and has to work for everything he gets.

[Kane Knight]

I don't even think he earns it. He got his neck broken...This is earning his right? Talk about failing upwards.

[Kenny]

Yeah, I have a lot of respect for Hardcore Holly now.

Beat up the guys who came from Tough Enough and are half his size. But take it easy on guys like The Undertaker and Brock.

Of course this is because Taker and Brock paid their dues, and not because they could beat Holly's ass up and down.

[blake639raw]

Sounds like Sour grapes by Holly because he can't make it big in the WWE.


:y:

[HeartBreakMan2k]

I really wish Bob would try to fight Brock legit. :(

[Corkscrewed]

Like we needed more reason to hate Holly.

[Stickman]

So basically Bob would hate Goldberg then and eat him alive if they had a match?

[Corkscrewed]

No, you're getting Bob confused with Mark Henry in this case (see captions).

[Kane Knight]

I really wish Bob would try to fight Brock legit. :(

Do you really wanna see Holly get killed?

[Kane Knight]

No, you're getting Bob confused with Mark Henry in this case (see captions).

Henry would eat him...Literally...

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Do you really wanna see Holly get killed?

I'm thinking about it... I'll get back to you for sure though.

[Kane Knight]

I'm thinking about it... I'll get back to you for sure though.

You know, I'm even tmepted. It's just really hard to resist a bully getting his just deserts, but I'm not sure I'd like to see Bob killed or crippled...I don't see his ability to self-inflict injuries will save him.

[Savio]

I'd ike to see holly room with Jeffery dahmer for one night. Ok thats going to far.

[Razor Rybek]

Thurman "Sparky" Plug, Is that Holly's idea of paying your dues? :lol:

Holly is an idiot,a bully and he has less talent than my little toe would have if it were amputated after a freak car accident!

[Pepsi Man]

Meh, I agree with all of that. There are guys in the indies that have been struggling for years that are at least on par with those currently in the WWE, but instead of giving them a shot, they're just taking random people, throwing them in some fly by night training program, and saying, "okay, you're a superstar now". I just don't feel that.

I think even as a wrestler myself, I'd rather be able to look back and know that I earned everything I got, whether the furthest I made it was a dark match or a World Title.

Just my one and a half cents though.

[Savio]

I agree......But holly being a buly about it?

[Tornado]

<font color=#33ffff>Personally, I can't stand Holly. I think hes a prick, and the what he did to that kid on Tough Enough was over the line. He's a below average worker, and he had no place in the main event scene. Hopefully someone else will injure him soon...:y:

[Savio]

What did he do to the kid?

[Tornado]

<font color=#33ffff>I've only ever heard/seen clips, but from what I gather, it was a match, trainers vs trainees. Holly just stormed in and pounded the shit out of the kid. He had quite a few bruises afterwards.
Thing is, it was done to teach the kid a "lesson", by the looks of it, the lesson was "Bob Holly is an Asshole"</font>

[Head]

Meh, I agree with all of that. There are guys in the indies that have been struggling for years that are at least on par with those currently in the WWE, but instead of giving them a shot, they're just taking random people, throwing them in some fly by night training program, and saying, "okay, you're a superstar now". I just don't feel that.

I think even as a wrestler myself, I'd rather be able to look back and know that I earned everything I got, whether the furthest I made it was a dark match or a World Title.

Just my one and a half cents though.
Really not just any random person. The person that wins is the winner of a competition with 100s of people in it, who they were able to prove to a group of pro wrestlers they are better than. The point obviously, is that airing a show on TV makes the WWE a lot of money. And the winner isn't guaranteed to be in the WWE, they only are awarded with a devepmental contract for one year, in which time they are given the same chance as everybody else. The fact that a guy like Maven made it to the main roster so soon just goes to show that the show is probably an effective way of picking out talented people.

At the end of the day, if the winner does not have talent, they are not gonna be on TV no matter what.

[Kane Knight]

Really not just any random person. The person that wins is the winner of a competition with 100s of people in it, who they were able to prove to a group of pro wrestlers they are better than. The point obviously, is that airing a show on TV makes the WWE a lot of money. And the winner isn't guaranteed to be in the WWE, they only are awarded with a devepmental contract for one year, in which time they are given the same chance as everybody else. The fact that a guy like Maven made it to the main roster so soon just goes to show that the show is probably an effective way of picking out talented people.

At the end of the day, if the winner does not have talent, they are not gonna be on TV no matter what.

The winner had damn well better have talent, though. It's not like they took a random panel of unqualified people.

As I've said before, you look at Tuff Enough and what it stands for to people...Who can blame people for wanting a shot at this? Like Sparky wouldn't have jumped at this if it had beenan option for him...Or maybe he wouldn't...I doubt he'd make the cut.

I don't watch the show, but it's an outlet to find people you might not otherwise find...And you take hundreds of those people, thin them out, and give one guy a shot at making it into the WWE. This is NOT a bad system, though I can see where wrestlers would be jealous. But you know what? If I was given a shot like this, I would NOT say "No thanks, I'd rather pay my dues for 15 years and maybe get a shot some day down the line."

[SuperSlim]

it soudns like bitterness of an old man

[Savio]

I wouldn't say old...

[John la Rock]

:n:

[Pepsi Man]

It's still a huge difference from actually "paying dues" and whatnot, which is a practice I do believe in. Working hard to get ahead, not getting handed shit. I don't buy that "Maven was just that good" excuse, because all he knew was the damned dropkick. As it is, he only knows the dropkick and the cross body.

Chris Nowinski owned him in every way imaginable, yet couldn't win the damned thing. Same for Josh Matthews.

But really, if it's just taking people that wouldn't normally get a shot in wrestling, there are like 9879079879768765765646545665567456476587576857658756858756755765869876698766678698679676786.1 other ways to do that.

For whoever said the show makes the WWE money, well, so would revenue from sales of Katie Vic replicas, but I don't see those out there.

[Kane Knight]

But really, if it's just taking people that wouldn't normally get a shot in wrestling, there are like 9879079879768765765646545665567456476587576857658756858756755765869876698766678698679676786.1 other ways to do that.

And?

This isn't a video game. There are actually almost infinte choices every single day. So What?

[Pepsi Man]

And?

This isn't a video game. There are actually almost infinte choices every single day. So What?
The point is that that doesn't make Tough Enough any better than any other method they could use to generate random talent.

[Kane Knight]

The point is that that doesn't make Tough Enough any better than any other method they could use to generate random talent.

But that fact doesn't make it any worse, either.

[Head]

Pepsi Man, why do you belive in people having to pay dues?

If they are talented enough to be on TV, there is no reason to hold the, down. It makes no sense business wise.

Paying dues is a tradition that makes no sense at all, and is just there to make the vets feel good. When I wrestled in college, I started sophomore year, than the next year my school got an All American freshmen in my weight class, and he started over me, even though I had payed more dues than he had. And I don't disagree with it either. He was able to help the team more than I could have, and that is the point of it all, isn't it?

[blake639raw]

Pepsi Man, why do you belive in people having to pay dues?

If they are talented enough to be on TV, there is no reason to hold the, down. It makes no sense business wise.

Paying dues is a tradition that makes no sense at all, and is just there to make the vets feel good. When I wrestled in college, I started sophomore year, than the next year my school got an All American freshmen in my weight class, and he started over me, even though I had payed more dues than he had. And I don't disagree with it either. He was able to help the team more than I could have, and that is the point of it all, isn't it?
YESSSSSSS, thank you.

[Pepsi Man]

Pepsi Man, why do you belive in people having to pay dues?

If they are talented enough to be on TV, there is no reason to hold the, down. It makes no sense business wise.

Paying dues is a tradition that makes no sense at all, and is just there to make the vets feel good. When I wrestled in college, I started sophomore year, than the next year my school got an All American freshmen in my weight class, and he started over me, even though I had payed more dues than he had. And I don't disagree with it either. He was able to help the team more than I could have, and that is the point of it all, isn't it?
I believe in hard work. I don't believe in people being handed things. In wrestling, "paying dues" also gives time to develop. You can say what you want, but as far as I'm concerned, at least up to a point, having time to develop makes wrestlers better in the long run. Rock may have had a jump start with his dad being in the business, and a lot of second or third generation wrestlers may as well, but even then, they grew up in the business.

If you look at all great champions of the past, none of them started out as big superstars.

Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, Mick Foley, Triple H, even Rock, who I mentioned, had to take it slow.

There aren't many other areas in life where I agree with people just being handed things either. In my opinion, where most people have to claw their way to the top, everyone should, and Tough Enough, to me, is like a handout.

[Innovator]

Pepsi Man, why do you belive in people having to pay dues?

If they are talented enough to be on TV, there is no reason to hold the, down. It makes no sense business wise.

Paying dues is a tradition that makes no sense at all, and is just there to make the vets feel good. When I wrestled in college, I started sophomore year, than the next year my school got an All American freshmen in my weight class, and he started over me, even though I had payed more dues than he had. And I don't disagree with it either. He was able to help the team more than I could have, and that is the point of it all, isn't it?
Imagine playing football in the NFL. You go through preseason, train all year round, played in college, played in high school, and you finally made it big. Now how pissed off would you be if someone with no football experience started over you because he won a TV show letting him play pro football?

[Kristanna Vola]

That’s a bit of a far off analogy to use, much as I get what you're saying about paying dues. (Because I believe in hardwork also) If you got the skills, then don't wait, put them out there. I think Head (haha) said it best, "business wise". This is a business after all and the people you mentioned, HBK, Austin, Rock, you're right about how they became stars.

However, the times of people being brought up gradually are over. There isn’t that long period anymore.

Certain people get the big break and others don't. That's just life.

[Kane Knight]

I believe in hard work. I don't believe in people being handed things. In wrestling, "paying dues" also gives time to develop. You can say what you want, but as far as I'm concerned, at least up to a point, having time to develop makes wrestlers better in the long run. Rock may have had a jump start with his dad being in the business, and a lot of second or third generation wrestlers may as well, but even then, they grew up in the business.

If you look at all great champions of the past, none of them started out as big superstars.

Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, Mick Foley, Triple H, even Rock, who I mentioned, had to take it slow.

There aren't many other areas in life where I agree with people just being handed things either. In my opinion, where most people have to claw their way to the top, everyone should, and Tough Enough, to me, is like a handout.

So because it worked in the past, it shouldn't be changed?

I direct you, once more, to the effectiveness of the slave trade.

[Kane Knight]

Imagine playing football in the NFL. You go through preseason, train all year round, played in college, played in high school, and you finally made it big. Now how pissed off would you be if someone with no football experience started over you because he won a TV show letting him play pro football?

Imagine that they put their best feet forward, regardless of who had senority, instead of killing the talent if they hadn't "paid their dues..."

[Pepsi Man]

So because it worked in the past, it shouldn't be changed?

I direct you, once more, to the effectiveness of the slave trade.
We're dealing with totally different animals. Working hard and paying your dues to become a pro wrestler is something people do by choice. It's not like anyone's going into people's homes, beating them down, whipping them, and telling them, "YOU WILL NOT GO HOME FOR 300 DAYS OUT OF THE YEAR. YOU WILL BE PAID JACK SHIT FOR YOUR FIRST 5 YEARS. YOU MIGHT NOT MAKE IT, BUT DAMN IT YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!"

If any wrestler on the current roster considers himself to be "forced" into being a pro wrestler, he or she is in some serious need of counsel.

[Pepsi Man]

We're dealing with totally different animals. Working hard and paying your dues to become a pro wrestler is something people do by choice. It's not like anyone's going into people's homes, beating them down, whipping them, and telling them, "YOU WILL NOT GO HOME FOR 300 DAYS OUT OF THE YEAR. YOU WILL BE PAID JACK SHIT FOR YOUR FIRST 5 YEARS. YOU MIGHT NOT MAKE IT, BUT DAMN IT YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!"

If any wrestler on the current roster considers himself to be "forced" into being a pro wrestler, he or she is in some serious need of counsel.
Well, except maybe The Bashams. ;)

[Kane Knight]

We're dealing with totally different animals. Working hard and paying your dues to become a pro wrestler is something people do by choice. It's not like anyone's going into people's homes, beating them down, whipping them, and telling them, "YOU WILL NOT GO HOME FOR 300 DAYS OUT OF THE YEAR. YOU WILL BE PAID JACK SHIT FOR YOUR FIRST 5 YEARS. YOU MIGHT NOT MAKE IT, BUT DAMN IT YOU DON'T HAVE A CHOICE!"

If any wrestler on the current roster considers himself to be "forced" into being a pro wrestler, he or she is in some serious need of counsel.

But both were considered to be good ideas in the past...

Times change. Just because it worked once doesn't mean it'll work again or it's still a good idea.

[Pepsi Man]

But both were considered to be good ideas in the past...

Times change. Just because it worked once doesn't mean it'll work again or it's still a good idea.
Slavery was NEVER a good idea. It may have been "considered a good idea" by some people, but then again, so was the killing of Jews in the Holocaust.

Forcing people to work their way up, on the other hand, in my opinion, IS a good idea. Case and point? Look at Brock Lesnar. Probably the first guy ever to break right in and get such a huge push, straight to the top. Not even two years later, he's threatening to kill anyone that uses the internet.

Mick Foley - former multi time World Champ, tag champ, and everything else...but he clawed for all he got. ALL he got. As a result, to this day, he seems to be a down to earth guy who can separate "wrestler" from "person".

Al Snow - very dedicated performer, never held a World Title. Doesn't seem to carry a grudge. Very good.

It builds character in AND out of the ring, in my opinion.

I'll reiterate once more though. Regardless of anything, slavery was never eeeeeeeeevvvveeeeeeerrrr a "good idea".

[Kane Knight]

Slavery was NEVER a good idea. It may have been "considered a good idea" by some people, but then again, so was the killing of Jews in the Holocaust.

Forcing people to work their way up, on the other hand, in my opinion, IS a good idea. Case and point? Look at Brock Lesnar. Probably the first guy ever to break right in and get such a huge push, straight to the top. Not even two years later, he's threatening to kill anyone that uses the internet.

Mick Foley - former multi time World Champ, tag champ, and everything else...but he clawed for all he got. ALL he got. As a result, to this day, he seems to be a down to earth guy who can separate "wrestler" from "person".

Al Snow - very dedicated performer, never held a World Title. Doesn't seem to carry a grudge. Very good.

It builds character in AND out of the ring, in my opinion.

I'll reiterate once more though. Regardless of anything, slavery was never eeeeeeeeevvvveeeeeeerrrr a "good idea".

Because your opinion condemns one and not the other.

I see.

[Pepsi Man]

Because your opinion condemns one and not the other.

I see.
Okay, so you're saying "back then slavery was a good idea?" :-\

[Kane Knight]

Okay, so you're saying "back then slavery was a good idea?" :-\

It was according to the paradigm that they lived by.

I am not condoning slavery.

However, the slave owners sure as Hell thought it was a good idea.

The wrestlers on top think it's a good idea.

[Pepsi Man]

It was according to the paradigm that they lived by.

I am not condoning slavery.

However, the slave owners sure as Hell thought it was a good idea.

The wrestlers on top think it's a good idea.
Alright, here's another angle to look into with that particular analogy though. The wrestlers on top now had to go through this same due-paying process that they're calling for to be placed upon the younger stars.

Slave owners, up until right near the very end of slavery, were never former slaves that had "worked their way up" into the slave owners.

[Head]

Yes, the big stars of the past did "pay their dues."

Mostly because EVERYBODY paying dues used to be somthing that every wrestler had to go through until the last couple of years.

You gave the example of Brock being a hothead after only a few years, and Mick Foley being a good guy.

How about Angle, a guy who really didn't pay his dues being a complete team player compared to guys like Triple H, Randy Savage, Shawn Michaels, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Bob Holly, Undertaker, ect. who DID pay their dues?

Citing one asshole who did not pay their dues and one good guy who did and blaming the fact that the guy is an asshole on not paying his dues doesn't cut it.

It's pointless to try and say that wrestling is diffrent from slavery because people arn't forced into wrestling. So now anything that people arn't forced into shouldn't imrpove? People wern't nececarily forced into factory work in the 19th century, but saying that the working conditions there shouldn't have improved is ridiculous.

The fact that the WWE is a business with the main purpose of making a revenue for it's share holders (somthing any wrestler should understand) would make it very stupid of them to hold back a more talented wrestler so they can put in an older guy who has paid his dues. It's the way the world works. People advance in life based on their skill. Wrestling, whether some people want to think so or not, is a competitive business, and not somthing that anybody who puts the time into will automatically excel in.

[Head]

Imagine playing football in the NFL. You go through preseason, train all year round, played in college, played in high school, and you finally made it big. Now how pissed off would you be if someone with no football experience started over you because he won a TV show letting him play pro football?
I would not like it, but would know that he is better qualified for the position than I am, and understand. As I have already stated, I have experienced somthing similar to this, and accepted it. If everybody advanced soley on the time and effort they put in, the world would be a lot less efficient of a place.

[Pepsi Man]

Yes, the big stars of the past did "pay their dues."

Mostly because EVERYBODY paying dues used to be somthing that every wrestler had to go through until the last couple of years.

You gave the example of Brock being a hothead after only a few years, and Mick Foley being a good guy.

How about Angle, a guy who really didn't pay his dues being a complete team player compared to guys like Triple H, Randy Savage, Shawn Michaels, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, Bob Holly, Undertaker, ect. who DID pay their dues?

Citing one asshole who did not pay their dues and one good guy who did and blaming the fact that the guy is an asshole on not paying his dues doesn't cut it.

It's pointless to try and say that wrestling is diffrent from slavery because people arn't forced into wrestling. So now anything that people arn't forced into shouldn't imrpove? People wern't nececarily forced into factory work in the 19th century, but saying that the working conditions there shouldn't have improved is ridiculous.

The fact that the WWE is a business with the main purpose of making a revenue for it's share holders (somthing any wrestler should understand) would make it very stupid of them to hold back a more talented wrestler so they can put in an older guy who has paid his dues. It's the way the world works. People advance in life based on their skill. Wrestling, whether some people want to think so or not, is a competitive business, and not somthing that anybody who puts the time into will automatically excel in.

I'm not saying that anything besides slavery shouldn't be improved...but there's basically no comparison for it. It's not a good analogy to use at all. It's like comparing apples to ancient Japanese parasitic bacteria.

[Kane Knight]

I'm not saying that anything besides slavery shouldn't be improved...but there's basically no comparison for it. It's not a good analogy to use at all. It's like comparing apples to ancient Japanese parasitic bacteria.

It's only different in your book because you support one and not the other.

There is a valid analogy, you would just rather say that since you, in this century, object to what used to be an accepted way of life (An invalid argument in and of itself), it's irrelevent. And then you go ahead and continue with your explanation that it's good because it's the way it's traditionally done. You're validating based on tradition and history...Hmmmm...

You only don't like the analogy because a paradigm you believe in is being compared to a paradigm you don't.

[Kane Knight]

Alright, here's another angle to look into with that particular analogy though. The wrestlers on top now had to go through this same due-paying process that they're calling for to be placed upon the younger stars.

Slave owners, up until right near the very end of slavery, were never former slaves that had "worked their way up" into the slave owners.

And your point is?

You're trying to use minutia to disprove a comparison unrelated to said minutia.

And while we're being anal, identical twins are not identical because they don't have matching fingerprints.

The Atlantic and Pacific oceans have no grounds for comparison because they're on ENTIRELY different coasts...

And comparing the Klan and the Nazis as hate groups is invalid because they had different OUTFITS! OMGGGG!

[Vastardikai]

I am in favor of paying dues. However, there are those who seem to transcend and are good right off the bat (Cena, Lesnar, Angle, etc). But, for every Brock Lesnar, there is about 20 Lex Lugers or Big Shows who were handed everything right off the bat and got out of control egos (Show even admitted as much on an episode of, get this, Tough Enough).

Sometimes, the guys are amazing off the bat, others it takes time to devolp. Three come to mind: "Mean" Marc Callous, Rock and Flash of the Blade Runners, and "Stunning" Steve. When they first came out, they didn't have what it took to be the biggest names of the sport. After learning the craft, paying their dues (Oh, the Horror), and devolping their skills, all four became Mega Stars. I'm sure the last is the most of obvious (He went from being "Stunning" to just "Stone Cold"), the other three are well known as well. Mean Marc, after a stint as a Skyscraper and as a singles star being managed by Paul E. Dangerously, went North for Survivor Series as an Impressive Monster by the name of the Undertaker. Rock was a bit of a flash in the pan, going to WCCW as the Dingo Warrior, and finally he went North as well, becomming the Ultimate Warrior. Flash stuck it out in UWF when it was bought out by the NWA. He was the only UWFer who got over on his own merits, as the rest were subsequently buried. He is now one of the best known wrestlers never to have worked for Vincent K. McMahon: Sting.

Paying Dues, when done properly, is a good thing. Personally, I have agreed with Holly's words: Most of the Tough Enough Talents are green and should still be honing their craft away from the big time. Does that justify him roughing up the kids? Hell no. Should he have Main Evented? Definitely not. Then again, I've always thought that Jake "The Snake" should have been given a WWF Title run, so I can't know a whole lot.

[Head]

Sometimes, the guys are amazing off the bat, others it takes time to devolp.
Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to.

And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway.

And even if one argues that not paying dues has made Brock a hothead (which I personally think is being overplayed a lot, since it is mainly based on one comment), the fact is, he is still a big draw for the company, which is in the end more important to Vince than the kind of relationships the wrestlers have with each other.

[Kane Knight]

Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to.

And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway.

And even if one argues that not paying dues has made Brock a hothead (which I personally think is being overplayed a lot, since it is mainly based on one comment), the fact is, he is still a big draw for the company, which is in the end more important to Vince than the kind of relationships the wrestlers have with each other.

Brock
s record as a hothead may come, in part, from his NCAA record.

I doubt "Not paying his dues" had anything to do with it...Hardcore Holly's sure not a more wstable person for it...Or a more capable wrestler...

[Head]

Brock
s record as a hothead may come, in part, from his NCAA record.
I think it just may come from being a main eventer, period.

Being on top can change people whether they paid dues or not.

[Vastardikai]

Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to.

And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway.

I doubt "Not paying his dues" had anything to do with it...Hardcore Holly's sure not a more wstable person for it...Or a more capable wrestler...

The whole reason for my posting about Paying Dues and listing examples was because someone equated Paying Dues to Slavery. Hey, I think with some time, Rob Conway, Rene Dupree, and even Randy Orton, who I admittedly don't care for, can be big stars. They just need to develop their skills.

[Kane Knight]

I think it just may come from being a main eventer, period.

Being on top can change people whether they paid dues or not.

I'm not exactly sure he was stable to begin with though.

[Ian]

I've got to agree with pepsi man.

To me, paying your dues is not just about making it hard for young people to get into the business. It is about showing that you have respect for the business, that you are willing to work your ass of to get to the top and work with other people to get there.
It is a good thing because it weeds out the people who are not serious about the business.

Paying your dues earns you respect with the other wrestlers showing them your willing to work hard like they have, not just have something handed to you on a plate..

[Kane Knight]

The whole reason for my posting about Paying Dues and listing examples was because someone equated Paying Dues to Slavery. Hey, I think with some time, Rob Conway, Rene Dupree, and even Randy Orton, who I admittedly don't care for, can be big stars. They just need to develop their skills.

No...

Someone equated that tradition was not always a good reason to justify an outdated and oft ridiculous practice.

There's a difference, BTW, between the concept of "Paying dues" and the concept of developing talent as long as it takes to make them good.

If they were doing that, Holly would still be in the developmental stage. They've enacted a senority system, which the people at the top seem to be okay with (naturally). They dislike people jumping to the top, even when they clearly have the talent. Brock didn't need the same level of training your average Joe did. He shouldn't have to be kept down, and it's better for the company if better competitors shine through.

People like Brock are the exception and not the rule.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Pepsi, you're an idiot.

It isn't a matter of paying due...in which they pretty much do in OVW when they're sent there for developing. They have one year to show they have what it takes to get on tv, and if they don't have it, goodbye, nice knowing you.

Holly is another sad example of pathetic Southern Americans who are so pathetically hard-headed and so god damned stupid that he's so set in one way he can't change. He is just pathetic, and I hope he gets even more what's coming to him in the future.

[Pepsi Man]

If you don't see a huge difference between slavery and pro wrestling, I'm wasting my time here.

[Pepsi Man]

And your point is?

You're trying to use minutia to disprove a comparison unrelated to said minutia.

And while we're being anal, identical twins are not identical because they don't have matching fingerprints.

The Atlantic and Pacific oceans have no grounds for comparison because they're on ENTIRELY different coasts...

And comparing the Klan and the Nazis as hate groups is invalid because they had different OUTFITS! OMGGGG!
Wait, it was a valid analogy until I found a BIG difference between the two.

[Pepsi Man]

I am in favor of paying dues. However, there are those who seem to transcend and are good right off the bat (Cena, Lesnar, Angle, etc). But, for every Brock Lesnar, there is about 20 Lex Lugers or Big Shows who were handed everything right off the bat and got out of control egos (Show even admitted as much on an episode of, get this, Tough Enough).

Sometimes, the guys are amazing off the bat, others it takes time to devolp. Three come to mind: "Mean" Marc Callous, Rock and Flash of the Blade Runners, and "Stunning" Steve. When they first came out, they didn't have what it took to be the biggest names of the sport. After learning the craft, paying their dues (Oh, the Horror), and devolping their skills, all four became Mega Stars. I'm sure the last is the most of obvious (He went from being "Stunning" to just "Stone Cold"), the other three are well known as well. Mean Marc, after a stint as a Skyscraper and as a singles star being managed by Paul E. Dangerously, went North for Survivor Series as an Impressive Monster by the name of the Undertaker. Rock was a bit of a flash in the pan, going to WCCW as the Dingo Warrior, and finally he went North as well, becomming the Ultimate Warrior. Flash stuck it out in UWF when it was bought out by the NWA. He was the only UWFer who got over on his own merits, as the rest were subsequently buried. He is now one of the best known wrestlers never to have worked for Vincent K. McMahon: Sting.

Paying Dues, when done properly, is a good thing. Personally, I have agreed with Holly's words: Most of the Tough Enough Talents are green and should still be honing their craft away from the big time. Does that justify him roughing up the kids? Hell no. Should he have Main Evented? Definitely not. Then again, I've always thought that Jake "The Snake" should have been given a WWF Title run, so I can't know a whole lot.
I never said it's an excuse for anyone to try to legitimately injure people. And him in a title match? Eh, I'll admit, I can forgive it. It was comic relief for me. His promos had me laughing almost as hard as in WCW when Kanyon used to do the Kanyon Kutter on random guys backstage.

[Pepsi Man]

Pretty much my point the whole time. Not saying nobody should ever pay dues, simply saying that those who are awesome from the start really don't have to.

And again, citing specific instances of wrestlers who did or did not pay their dues, and are or are not assholes really does not prove anything. I can name a huge list of guys who paid their dues and are still assholes, and plenty who did not and are good guys. The same thing doesn't always have the same effect on everybody anyway.

And even if one argues that not paying dues has made Brock a hothead (which I personally think is being overplayed a lot, since it is mainly based on one comment), the fact is, he is still a big draw for the company, which is in the end more important to Vince than the kind of relationships the wrestlers have with each other.
Lesnar got out of his car and screamed at a fan once, though he made it up, and allegedly, he gave Kurt a hard time at Mania about who called the action.

[Pepsi Man]

I've got to agree with pepsi man.

To me, paying your dues is not just about making it hard for young people to get into the business. It is about showing that you have respect for the business, that you are willing to work your ass of to get to the top and work with other people to get there.
It is a good thing because it weeds out the people who are not serious about the business.

Paying your dues earns you respect with the other wrestlers showing them your willing to work hard like they have, not just have something handed to you on a plate..
You're a wrestler, right? With Youell and the guys in England, correct?

[Pepsi Man]

Pepsi, you're an idiot.

It isn't a matter of paying due...in which they pretty much do in OVW when they're sent there for developing. They have one year to show they have what it takes to get on tv, and if they don't have it, goodbye, nice knowing you.

Holly is another sad example of pathetic Southern Americans who are so pathetically hard-headed and so god damned stupid that he's so set in one way he can't change. He is just pathetic, and I hope he gets even more what's coming to him in the future.
Maven, Miss Jackie, and Shaniqua were put on TV like the following week after winning it, ON Raw. Maybe they learned their lesson by the third one, but don't go twisting it up.

[Head]

Maven, Miss Jackie, and Shaniqua were put on TV like the following week after winning it, ON Raw. Maybe they learned their lesson by the third one, but don't go twisting it up.
They were on Raw the week after they won to promote the show.

And Lesner getting angry at somebody who hit his car in traffic has NOTHING to do with wrestling.

[Pepsi Man]

They were on Raw the week after they won to promote the show.

And Lesner getting angry at somebody who hit his car in traffic has NOTHING to do with wrestling.
They wrestled a few weeks...and shortly after December 2001, Maven went full time. He even wrestled Booker T at Christmas. Somehow, that doesn't seem like a year after Tough Enough ended. :-\

Jackie and Shaniqua, then known as Linda Miles started competing regularly almost right away, until Jackie SEVERELY ****ed up in a mixed tag match with her and Nowinski against like Trish and Dreamer.

[Head]

They wrestled a few weeks...and shortly after December 2001, Maven went full time. He even wrestled Booker T at Christmas. Somehow, that doesn't seem like a year after Tough Enough ended. :-\
I'm sorry...they promoted the show for a few weeks.

And who ever said Maven had to wrestle for a year in order to wrestle in the WWE?

[Pepsi Man]

I'm sorry...they promoted the show for a few weeks.

And who ever said Maven had to wrestle for a year in order to wrestle in the WWE?
They tried claiming Tough Enough only gets you in OVW for a year. That simply didn't happen, up until the last one.

[Head]

They claimed the winner would be rewarded with a 1 year develepmental contract.

Which does not mean they cannot be called up.

I don't even see what you are trying to prove anymore.

[Pepsi Man]

They claimed the winner would be rewarded with a 1 year develepmental contract.

Which does not mean they cannot be called up.

I don't even see what you are trying to prove anymore.
I've made a majority of my points, but bottom line is these people were put on TV immediately thereafter winning. I'm not about to let the past be tweaked. Like I said, I'm glad they learned their lesson by the third one, but prior to that, they were being added right onto the main rosters.

[Head]

I've made a majority of my points, but bottom line is these people were put on TV immediately thereafter winning. I'm not about to let the past be tweaked. Like I said, I'm glad they learned their lesson by the third one, but prior to that, they were being added right onto the main rosters.
Making a few appearences on TV before being sent back to OVW is NOT adding them to the main roser right away.

From what I see, the point you are trying to make is that even if somebody has the talent to make it big time, they should have to wait while "paying their dues" regardless. Which makes no sense in any way.

[Pepsi Man]

Making a few appearences on TV before being sent back to OVW is NOT adding them to the main roser right away.

From what I see, the point you are trying to make is that even if somebody has the talent to make it big time, they should have to wait while "paying their dues" regardless. Which makes no sense in any way.
Hell, to be frank, in wrestling, EVERYONE "has the talent" to make it big. You need skills. Skills and development. I mean ****, any mother ****er around could jump in a wrestling ring and get over, all depending on the mood of the crowd at the time, but only through working your way to the top have you earned it and have you REALLY learned what in the hell you're doing.

[Head]

Hell, to be frank, in wrestling, EVERYONE "has the talent" to make it big. You need skills. Skills and development. I mean ****, any mother ****er around could jump in a wrestling ring and get over, all depending on the mood of the crowd at the time, but only through working your way to the top have you earned it and have you REALLY learned what in the hell you're doing.
Yes, anybody could probably get over with a main event push. The point is (or at least should be) to push the people who are the most talented.

And you really don't seem to get the point that simply wrestling for a longer amount of time does not make somebody more talented.

Yes, people do need to hone their skills, but saying that somebody who has wrestled for 3 years should be on the card over a more talented wrestler who has only wrestled for a year is absurd. Life is not a waiting list.

[Pepsi Man]

Yes, anybody could probably get over with a main event push. The point is (or at least should be) to push the people who are the most talented.

And you really don't seem to get the point that simply wrestling for a longer amount of time does not make somebody more talented.

Yes, people do need to hone their skills, but saying that somebody who has wrestled for 3 years should be on the card over a more talented wrestler who has only wrestled for a year is absurd. Life is not a waiting list.
Like I said, skills versus talents. Even Brock himself, who I have grown to like, botched that SSP in the main event of WrestlefreakingMania. I'm not saying there's NO way, but do you really think that if he were in the business another five years or so before that match that he necessarily would've screwed that up.

Experience. There are too many situations in wrestling, and it takes time to realize how to cover all of them regardless of how much "talent" one has.

[Vastardikai]

No...

Someone equated that tradition was not always a good reason to justify an outdated and oft ridiculous practice.

There's a difference, BTW, between the concept of "Paying dues" and the concept of developing talent as long as it takes to make them good.

If they were doing that, Holly would still be in the developmental stage. They've enacted a senority system, which the people at the top seem to be okay with (naturally). They dislike people jumping to the top, even when they clearly have the talent. Brock didn't need the same level of training your average Joe did. He shouldn't have to be kept down, and it's better for the company if better competitors shine through.

People like Brock are the exception and not the rule.

I see, I was confused there: I figured Paying Dues = Developing Talent. Which was sort of my definition.

I didn't see a problem with what he was saying because his definition of paying dues and mine were different.

Telling me Brock is the exception goes with what I said above:

But, for every Brock Lesnar, there is about 20 Lex Lugers or Big Shows who were handed everything right off the bat and got out of control egos

Brock and the like know the basic moves, they just needed time devolping the other skills. I even remembering hearing at one point that Jericho was coaching Kurt on mic skills and he has gone quite far in that department, especially when he and Joey Styles were calling a Little Guido/Taz match in ECW. Hearing that Kurt Angle and the one who's on Smackdown is like two different people altogether. Of course, the basics out of the way saved a great deal of time. I have no problem with the folks who are already ready to go to the next level ASAP. The ones who aren't ready, like some I have mentioned, need some time developing.

But yeah, Holly needs an extended stay in OVW.

[Head]

Like I said, skills versus talents. Even Brock himself, who I have grown to like, botched that SSP in the main event of WrestlefreakingMania. I'm not saying there's NO way, but do you really think that if he were in the business another five years or so before that match that he necessarily would've screwed that up.

Experience. There are too many situations in wrestling, and it takes time to realize how to cover all of them regardless of how much "talent" one has.
So you are saying Brock was not ready for the big time. Which is a seprate argument entirely.

I am saying that people should be put in the WWE when they have the skills needed to do so, and not have to wait longer just because assholes like Bob Holly think they should have to pay their dues.

[Pepsi Man]

So you are saying Brock was not ready for the big time. Which is a seprate argument entirely.

I am saying that people should be put in the WWE when they have the skills needed to do so, and not have to wait longer just because assholes like Bob Holly think they should have to pay their dues.
Key words you just said right there, WHEN they have the skills. "Paying dues" is what gets those skills. Nothing else. All the "talent" in the world doesn't equal one iota of a skill point.

[Kane Knight]

Key words you just said right there, WHEN they have the skills. "Paying dues" is what gets those skills. Nothing else. All the "talent" in the world doesn't equal one iota of a skill point.

:lol:

Sorry, that's a total load of shit.

[Ian]

You're a wrestler, right? With Youell and the guys in England, correct?

Correct.

[Head]

I think we have differing opinions on what "paying dues" means.

I see paying dues as people needlessly having to be on the botttom of the card and wait their chance even if they have the skills.

And yes, I never said stars shouldn't be on TV is they don't have the skills. However some are capable of becoming skilled, and are ready to be on TV very quickly. I see no need to hold them back.

[Ian]

Paying dues in my eyes is earning the right to call yourself a wrestler, to be at the top of the business. Not having it handed to you on a plate because being at the top is a special thing that only a handful of people do and not be handed to someone who has no respect for the business or the rest of the workers.

[Innovator]

Paying dues in my eyes is earning the right to call yourself a wrestler, to be at the top of the business. Not having it handed to you on a plate because being at the top is a special thing that only a handful of people do and not be handed to someone who has no respect for the business or the rest of the workers.
I agree with ya here

People who won Tough Enough should pay their dues, a guy like Cena who already has by being on the indys then stuck with no gimmick for a couple months. Brock never did really but he caught on fast enough.

[CosaNostra]

To me, I equate the idea of "paying dues" to that of a regular job. Typicallly in a day to day job, if the average joe pays their dues (as the term seems to be defined here) works hard, gives his all, and keeps his mouth shut, they rise up the ladder due to sheer experience; i.e. Mick Foley. Then there is the people who have just "got it", very bright people who with either natural innate talent or attractive personality catch on early and catapult to the top; i.e. Kurt Angle.

Everyone pays a certain amount of dues; some necessarily more than others as they need that developmental experience to get there, and others who take less time to do so because of their natural talent or attractive personality.

And just like in any job, there are the people who are continuosly being political, manipulative, and backstabbing; wielding their acquired influence to rise up by keeping others down. We know of those in our own work lives who do this. I'm sure you can think of a few in the wrestling business, past and present who do this.

All in all wrestling can be like any other business. "Paying your dues" is only one aspect of the whole package.

[Pepsi Man]

Just felt the need, and no, this really isn't part of the overall "argument", but when you mention Kurt Angle not paying dues, I mean, the guy was an Olympic gold medalist and even then, he started out with dark matches for at least a year or two.

[CosaNostra]

I didn't say he DIDN'T "pay dues", just that his sheer natural talent and awesome ring personality carried him further earlier on than someone who had less pure talent, look and personality and thus had to "pay" more in terms of time put in to gain the necessary experience in order to rise higher.

Just like any other job.

[Kane Knight]

I didn't say he DIDN'T "pay dues", just that his sheer natural talent and awesome ring personality carried him further earlier on than someone who had less pure talent, look and personality and thus had to "pay" more in terms of time put in to gain the necessary experience in order to rise higher.

Just like any other job.

Yeah...When you've got qualifications, you tend not to get an entry level job.

[CosaNostra]

Exactly! :) :y:

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Shutup Pepsi Man.

Go suck Undertaker's penis.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I mean seriously, he sounds like he's Mark Calloway or Bradshaw or something. One of those dumbasses who can't wrestle, yet believes you have to come up the hardway.

[Heyman]

Shutup Pepsi Man.

Go suck Undertaker's penis.


:lol:

Moderator Newstead. :D

[Kane Knight]

I mean seriously, he sounds like he's Mark Calloway or Bradshaw or something. One of those dumbasses who can't wrestle, yet believes you have to come up the hardway.

And the only reason they believe it is because of the fact that they HAD to...

Not like Bradshaw could EVER get by on his wrestling skills...

[CosaNostra]

Its the classic The Brawler VS The Technical Wrestler philosophy; with the typical brawler stating that only brawlers have "paid their dues". To me, its like a less educated working grunt who has been in the job for years who feels resentful as he is being upstaged by a young, College educated guy who he perceives as starting at his level.

I think guys like Chris Benoit and Bret Hart would take exception to that attitude because they've paid their own form of dues. Where the hell does Bob Holly think he can get off taking it upon himself to make a young guy learning the ropes (as it were) "pay" because "I had to"?

Thats just arrogance and a little peevish.

[Kane Knight]

Its the classic The Brawler VS The Technical Wrestler philosophy; with the typical brawler stating that only brawlers have "paid their dues". To me, its like a less educated working grunt who has been in the job for years who feels resentful as he is being upstaged by a young, College educated guy who he perceives as starting at his level.

I think guys like Chris Benoit and Bret Hart would take exception to that attitude because they've paid their own form of dues. Where the hell does Bob Holly think he can get off taking it upon himself to make a young guy learning the ropes (as it were) "pay" because "I had to"?

Thats just arrogance and a little peevish.

Pretty much completely agreed.

I don't know what else to add, I just think it's absurd to hold everyone to the lowest standard.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Um...I'm pretty sure Hart and Benoit "paid their dues" even the way asshole Holly talks about it. And they did take lumps, lol.

DUNGEON ANYONE?

Even the most technical wrestlers had to sleep in cars and b.s. like that, they just don't make you hear about it everyday because they aren't a bunch of wannabe hardasses.

lol, I can't wait til Holly gets upset that Angle didn't pay his dues.

btw Pep, you are still an idiot.

[Corkscrewed]

The fact is that times change. Today's world is sped up, and sometimes, that means skipping out on training you could have really used.

Basically, for me, it comes down to this: Everyone needs to develop and train, but the amount varies. If you're a natural, you can train a little and get your basics and jump right in. If you suck, you might have to spend years in the minors. A quick analogy: baseball. Mark Prior, arguable the best college pitcher ever, spent a few months in AA and AAA ball before getting called up halfway through his first year in the pros. He's turned into an ace. Obviously, he did not have to languish for years in the minors.

On the other hand, there are 27 year old rookies who really paid their dues but obviously were benefitted by all those years of experience... people who would not have been as good without it.

Now, a complete free ride should never occur. Obviously, if someone wins Tough Enough and is immediately on the show the next day feuding with some midcarder, that's unnacceptable. BUT THAT HASN'T HAPPENED! I agree that the TE people still need more training, practically all of them, but at least they didn't get completely free rides.

So it's a balance. Not everyone needs to "pay his dues." But some people need only to pay a little bit and then jump in.


As to Pepsiman's question about Brock botching the SSP... even if he was a five year veteran, he still might have done the same thing, simply because at the spur of the moment, sometimes your brain misfires. Heck, don't tell me that Benoit NEVER botches a move now. Even sometimes, he's bound to do some small slip-up.

[Kane Knight]

Not to mention that the Shooting Star Press is something Brock had done numerous times with success...Just not on TV.

but yeah. If he had paid his dues, that wouldn't have happened, because people who pay their dues don't botch moves...

You know, like Chris Jericho's never done a bad Lionsault...Rob Van Dam's never injured anyone...And Bob Holly'sd never been hurt by his inability to take a move...

Oh wait, both times were up against talentless people...Who hadn't paid their dues...Dammit!

[The Dub]

shit on all y'all!. Hardcore is the man! I've said this before. If it was someone else, there would be no discussion.

[CosaNostra]

And, uh, why IS that?

[The Dub]

And, uh, why IS that?
If it was a beloved wrestler instead of someone who has spent 98% of his career in the undercard, no one would be wishing death upon him like CyNick.

[Kane Knight]

rabidwolverine can see into the hearts of men...

Since his argument would only work on paper anyways.

[Rock Bottom]

Hardcore Holly. Is not. The man.

[CosaNostra]

If it was a beloved wrestler instead of someone who has spent 98% of his career in the undercard, no one would be wishing death upon him like CyNick.

And why do you think he is not "beloved"?

Nah........couldn't possibly be anything he did to make himself look like a cock.......

[Kane Knight]

And why do you think he is not "beloved"?

Nah........couldn't possibly be anything he did to make himself look like a cock.......

Not at all...:shifty:

[Kane Knight]

And why do you think he is not "beloved"?

Nah........couldn't possibly be anything he did to make himself look like a cock.......

Or his lack of talent...

[Kane Knight]

His attitude...

[Kane Knight]

His injury record...

[CosaNostra]

et al and etc...........:y:

[Kane Knight]

et al and etc...........:y:

I'd pretty much run out of stuff there anyways.

Although he MUST be the goods. After all, he paid his dues...

[Pepsi Man]

Anyways, I've pretty much made all of my points. I just wanted to clarify the bit about Angle.

As for Brock and the SSP, sure, he's done it successfully before, and sure, other people have botched other things before...but the main event of WrestleMania is the most important match of the wrestling year, and I've never seen such a visible botch.

The saddest bit was that neither man being 100%, they couldn't even cover for it too well.

Anyway, Newstead, shut the **** up if you're not even going to contribute to the topic. This isn't casual and our near-year-old "feud" you have going has no place here.

[CosaNostra]

"The saddest bit was that neither man being 100%......"

That says it all right there. At least they have the excuse of being injured while preforming and still BTW, put on one helleva match. And when you shoot for the stars (pun :p) to make such a high profile match at such a high profile event more memorable (somewhere Bob Holly will probably NEVER be) things MAY botch, which unfortuantley they did.

Bob Holly will never be put in such an enviable position for a high profile spot like that to potenially botch because Bob Holly will NEVER deserve it. Or earn it.

Sorry man. :(

[Kane Knight]

Bob Holly will never be put in such an enviable position for a high profile spot like that to potenially botch because Bob Holly will NEVER deserve it. Or earn it.

Or have the abilioty to be worth the risk.

[Pepsi Man]

"The saddest bit was that neither man being 100%......"

That says it all right there. At least they have the excuse of being injured while preforming and still BTW, put on one helleva match. And when you shoot for the stars (pun :p) to make such a high profile match at such a high profile event more memorable (somewhere Bob Holly will probably NEVER be) things MAY botch, which unfortuantley they did.

Bob Holly will never be put in such an enviable position for a high profile spot like that to potenially botch because Bob Holly will NEVER deserve it. Or earn it.

Sorry man. :(
I grant that neither man was 100%. In that one sentence, I was stepping totally out of this argument, and reflecting on that moment in wrestling history.