View Full Version : Who does HBK think he is?
Jordan
03-08-2006, 06:05 PM
Really try to think about this... HBK was on top of the wrestling work for only about two and a half years... He was running in the IC title division from like 92-95, and then main event status from 95-98... Does that make him the legend he thinks that he is? I don't think so. Sure he has had some of the best matches in WWE History... but name your top five WWE matches of all time, how many of them include HBK? Chances are maybe one or two, most people would say Bret/Austin from WM 13, Austin/Rock from WM 17, Bret/Owen from WM 10, Undertaker/Mankind from KOTR 98, HHH/Cactus Jack from RR 2000 or No Way Out 2000, or Savage/Steamboat from WM 3.... Sure the Razor/HBK ladder match was amazing for the time, but does it hold up now? Not really, its nothing compared to the ladder matches we have today... or how about Bret/HBK at WM 12? Hardly a five star match, we all know it, no matter how much we want to respect it, the first twenty minutes of that match are very dull. At least the Rock/HHH Iron Man match was non-stop. HBK is totally full of himself, yes he has had great matches... however not the best in WWE history. Honestly I think HBK's best matches have been since his return from his back surgery. If HBK is thinking he has nothing left to proove, he is wrong. He has a lot to proove if he wants to justify his huge ego. He is nowhere near the stardom of Austin, Rock, Hogan, Hart, or honestly Triple H. Maybe he has been wrestling for nearly twenty years, but that doens't mean much, name one four star match that The Rockers had? Name more than five four star matches that HBK had for the Intercontinental Title, name more than five for the World Title? Im not saying it can't be done, but you truely have to think. So what im getting at is, if you agree with me post what matches or feuds you think HBK would have to be apart of to be as good as his reputation is? If you disagree, tell me why, and proove it to me.
Pepsi Man
03-08-2006, 06:27 PM
Steve Austin was only on top from 1998 to about 2001 himself, and honestly, I never found his matches to be great myself, so the logic you're using here by itself can't justify the Shawn hate.
McLegend
03-08-2006, 06:36 PM
Of course after coming back from a crippling back injury, and probably being better then you were before the injury when you had all physical abilities that you don't have now and being the MVP since your return...
Yeah I could see how he still has things to prove.
Kane Knight
03-08-2006, 06:42 PM
Michaels is a legend. He's one of the tops of the roster since the early 90s. He's busted his ass and performed brilliantly. And even if he wasn't in a single "top 5 match" (And he probably would be if I sat down and thought about it), he'd still be a legend.
Cruiserweight 3:16
03-08-2006, 06:43 PM
Personally, I think HBK is a huge prick. His wrestling ability is no doubt excellent, but his whole persona bores the crap out of me. Even his heel turn last year bored the crap out of me. As far as I'm concerned, HBK will never be as big a legend as Foley, Rock, Austin, Hogan etc.
Avenger
03-08-2006, 06:58 PM
Really try to think about this... HBK was on top of the wrestling work for only about two and a half years... He was running in the IC title division from like 92-95, and then main event status from 95-98... Does that make him the legend he thinks that he is?
HBK was champion at the worst time possible. The company was very low, house show attendances were down, ratings were down, PPV buyrates were abysmal. HBK held the company together at the top, especially in such a transitional period when it didn't know what it was, a Saturday morning kid's show or something new, something more violent, more radical, something with an attitude.
Sure he has had some of the best matches in WWE History... but name your top five WWE matches of all time, how many of them include HBK? Chances are maybe one or twoFor a wrestler to have two of WWE's top five all time matches is pretty good if you ask me ;)
most people would say Bret/Austin from WM 13, Austin/Rock from WM 17, Bret/Owen from WM 10, Undertaker/Mankind from KOTR 98, HHH/Cactus Jack from RR 2000 or No Way Out 2000, or Savage/Steamboat from WM 3.... Sure the Razor/HBK ladder match was amazing for the time, but does it hold up now? Not really, its nothing compared to the ladder matches we have today...
What? You are actually calling HHH/Cactus Jack as one of WWE's top all-time matches? Bret/Austin isn't even one of the WWE's greatest matches of all-time!
And the ladder match? HBK defined Ladder matches, HBK and Scott Hall set the bar for every other ladder match we have seen and if you would actually watch the match you would see it still holds up today. I would take their WMX match over any of the WWE's recent ladder matches! And furthermore I will take it over any TLC spotfest, their match had ten times the psychology of anything the Dudleyz and Hardy Boyz could throw together!
or how about Bret/HBK at WM 12? Hardly a five star match, we all know it, no matter how much we want to respect it, the first twenty minutes of that match are very dull. At least the Rock/HHH Iron Man match was non-stop.
Please don't tell me you just did that! You compared Rock/HHH to Bret/HBK?
Two of the all-time greats in a match that defined this industry, compared to a match between two movie stars. HBK and Bret are probably two of the best wrestlers at bringing psychology to a match, psychology that you clearly can't understand.
You do understand that the only reason you think Rock/HHH was so good was because there was so much to distract from the fact that they could not go an hour like HBK/Bret. The Corporation and DX at ringside, HBK as guest referee and the return of the Undertaker! HBK/Bret didn't need any ringside shit. They gave us the best match of all-time, two guys, in a ring, one hour.
Maybe you can't appreciate what wrestling really is, maybe you don't enjoy an hour of wrestling. Well, that is what this business was built on, 76-minute World Title matches that would go to a non-contest. If people like you would only respect wrestlers once in a while and stop expecting the next run-in or guest referee or goddamn cheerleading squad to interrupt.
HBK is totally full of himself, yes he has had great matches... however not the best in WWE history. Honestly I think HBK's best matches have been since his return from his back surgery. If HBK is thinking he has nothing left to proove, he is wrong. He has a lot to proove if he wants to justify his huge ego. He is nowhere near the stardom of Austin, Rock, Hogan, Hart, or honestly Triple H. Maybe he has been wrestling for nearly twenty years, but that doens't mean much, name one four star match that The Rockers had? Name more than five four star matches that HBK had for the Intercontinental Title, name more than five for the World Title? Im not saying it can't be done, but you truely have to think. So what im getting at is, if you agree with me post what matches or feuds you think HBK would have to be apart of to be as good as his reputation is? If you disagree, tell me why, and proove it to me.
Yes, HBK is full of himself, he always has been, because he knows, and always has known how good he is.
When did you start watching pro wrestling? 2001? 2000? All you seem to know is Rock and Austin!
HBK set the bar for what you are watching today, he redefined ring psychology in the WWE, he carried Kevin fucking Nash to a four star match! He and Marty Jannetty set the bar for every tag team that came after them and they didn't even need to hold the titles (except for five minutes lol). Have you ever watched a Rockers match? He and Marty were going for sixty minutes in a tag match before Rocky Maivia had sprung a single pube.
I can't actually believe what I have just read. HBK doesn't need to prove anything, I don't need to prove anything for him, his record speaks for itself, WATCH HIS MATCHES! His is the greatest in-ring psychologist, along with Ric Flair, that I have ever seen.
There are two greats in the business, the two best of all-time, the two greatest wrestlers ever... Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair. Someday Kurt Angle's name will hopefully be there too, but frankly Jordan X - Rock, Austin, Hogan, HHH and even Bret... not one of these guys can come close to lacing HBK's boots!
Loose Cannon
03-08-2006, 06:59 PM
Rockers/Orient Express Rumble 91 was a **** right off the top of my head. I'm no HBK mark, but that post is pretty ridiculous. Obviously you have a bias agaist the guy.
James Steele
03-08-2006, 07:26 PM
Yeah. The average time a guy has "on top" is 2-5 years. Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair are the exceptions, not the rule.
Karlsberg
03-08-2006, 07:35 PM
I am not the biggest HBK fan but I am willing to admit like most people that he is certainly one of the all time greats. However I got to disagree with one thing Avenger said Bret Hart in my opinon is every bit the performer Shawn Michaels is.
Jordan
03-08-2006, 07:56 PM
First of all, Austin, Rock, and Hogan are the most famous wrestlers ever, bar none. Why? Because they entertained the most. Yes, Austin can't out wrestle HBK, nor Hogan or Rock... But (well not really Hogan quite honestly) Austin and Rock were such great entertainers that their style was much more appealing than HBK's.
All I know is Austin/Rock? I grew up in the HBK/Hart/Diesel/Yokozuna/Diesel era... All my life I have researche wrestling history. Hardly any WWE action from the 80's can touch what they do now (not everyone, but im talking guys like Benoit, Angle, Foley, Rock, Austin, HBK, Hart etc...). Don't insult my knowledge on the sport you don't know anything about what I know. Im saying HBK didn't sell tickets, simple fact. Austin and Rock did. Therefore making them better assets to the company BY A MILE than Shawn Michaels.
As far as me waiting for the next run in... who cares? If its entertaining its entertaining... the first twenty minutes of Hart/HBK is pure and complete bordome rest holds. The rest is pretty amazing. Im not saying he is a bad wrestler, but he is no where near the level he or most people think he is.
Sorry man but Razor/HBK doesn't come close to TLC at WM 17... I don't care how spotty you call it, your just plain out wrong. Ladder Matches are made to be spotty, not psychological, that is boring. You get a ladder match, you do stunts its that simple. It's a great match I KNOW... but it's nowhere near as good as the matches put on today.
Austin/Hart is psychology, your an idiot if you don't think so.
What is wrestling about to you? Pure tecnical wrestling? That doesn't sale tickets, I love it too man, but it can't compete in the same fucking ball park as the drama you would get from an Austin/Rock match.
If you want pure wrestling watch Ring of Honor, its amazing, if you want pure wrestling why would you watch WWE? WORLD WRESTLING ENTERTAINMENT
Some of us internet fans don't understand that we are a small small minority... if we stop watching wrestling, it's not gonna kill the buisness. The casual fan doesn't think like we do, they are the majority, and they are what matter.
What would I rather watch? Hart/HBK or Austin/Rock? Honestly I would say Austin and Rock because their personalites overshine any flaw that they have technically, and their punch punch kick kick style becomes very real and intense, as apposed to 5 minutes of hard hitting action and 3 minutes of a chin lock.
Wrestling has changed, we can't hold onto the 76 minute no contest draws at Shea Stadium... they aren't realistic for our society...
This doesn't have to be personal, it shouldn't be I am trying to spark a conversation that hasn't been brought up. You are being too close minded to accept anything but what you belive.
Jordan
03-08-2006, 07:56 PM
First of all, Austin, Rock, and Hogan are the most famous wrestlers ever, bar none. Why? Because they entertained the most. Yes, Austin can't out wrestle HBK, nor Hogan or Rock... But (well not really Hogan quite honestly) Austin and Rock were such great entertainers that their style was much more appealing than HBK's.
All I know is Austin/Rock? I grew up in the HBK/Hart/Diesel/Yokozuna/Diesel era... All my life I have researche wrestling history. Hardly any WWE action from the 80's can touch what they do now (not everyone, but im talking guys like Benoit, Angle, Foley, Rock, Austin, HBK, Hart etc...). Don't insult my knowledge on the sport you don't know anything about what I know. Im saying HBK didn't sell tickets, simple fact. Austin and Rock did. Therefore making them better assets to the company BY A MILE than Shawn Michaels.
As far as me waiting for the next run in... who cares? If its entertaining its entertaining... the first twenty minutes of Hart/HBK is pure and complete bordome rest holds. The rest is pretty amazing. Im not saying he is a bad wrestler, but he is no where near the level he or most people think he is.
Sorry man but Razor/HBK doesn't come close to TLC at WM 17... I don't care how spotty you call it, your just plain out wrong. Ladder Matches are made to be spotty, not psychological, that is boring. You get a ladder match, you do stunts its that simple. It's a great match I KNOW... but it's nowhere near as good as the matches put on today.
Austin/Hart is psychology, your an idiot if you don't think so.
What is wrestling about to you? Pure tecnical wrestling? That doesn't sale tickets, I love it too man, but it can't compete in the same fucking ball park as the drama you would get from an Austin/Rock match.
If you want pure wrestling watch Ring of Honor, its amazing, if you want pure wrestling why would you watch WWE? WORLD WRESTLING ENTERTAINMENT
Some of us internet fans don't understand that we are a small small minority... if we stop watching wrestling, it's not gonna kill the buisness. The casual fan doesn't think like we do, they are the majority, and they are what matter.
What would I rather watch? Hart/HBK or Austin/Rock? Honestly I would say Austin and Rock because their personalites overshine any flaw that they have technically, and their punch punch kick kick style becomes very real and intense, as apposed to 5 minutes of hard hitting action and 3 minutes of a chin lock.
Wrestling has changed, we can't hold onto the 76 minute no contest draws at Shea Stadium... they aren't realistic for our society...
This doesn't have to be personal, it shouldn't be I am trying to spark a conversation that hasn't been brought up. You are being too close minded to accept anything but what you belive.
How in the name of God could you name Mankind/Undertaker HIAC one of the greatest matches of all time in those examples? It was a good segment, but all it was was like four big bumps.
I wouldn't say that I'm a fan of Shawn Michaels, hell, I'll admit that he was and still is a prick, but to say that he isn't a legend just because he isn't in more than 2 ALL TIME matches in a WWE best matches list is just retarded.
If you want to go with that, you better have three of those five be Hulk Hogan matches, and I wouldn't put any of his matches in a top 5 list (even Rock/Hogan or Hogan/Andre). Unless it's for pure entertainment.
Sorry man but Razor/HBK doesn't come close to TLC at WM 17... I don't care how spotty you call it, your just plain out wrong. Ladder Matches are made to be spotty, not psychological, that is boring. You get a ladder match, you do stunts its that simple. It's a great match I KNOW... but it's nowhere near as good as the matches put on today.
Ladder matches became "spotty" when the Hardys revolutionized them.
Both Razor/HBK and Rock/Triple H were great matches for different reasons. Rock/Triple H was NOT a spot fest, and what did it do? It launched two of the biggest wrestlers in the past twenty years to the top.
I won't say that the TLC matches weren't "good", but they were a completely different style than Razor/HBK and Rock/Hunter. They're virtually impossible to compare.
Zen v.W.o.
03-08-2006, 08:16 PM
These are my top WWE legends ever..when I think wwe and elite, I think these guys...
Not in any order really:
Austin
Hogan
Bret
Rock
HBK
Taker
Piper
Savage
Andre
McLegend
03-08-2006, 08:18 PM
No HBK is at the level we think he is.
You are comparing him to the 3 biggest draw of all time. How many other people are on Rock, Austin, and Hogan's level? No one is except for Flair.
Do I think HBK is better then Rock, Austin, and Hogan? Yes I do.
Do I think he is on there on their level? No I don't. Now does that mean he's not legend? No.
You can tell just by watching ROH and young wrestler how much of HBK marks they are. So it could easily be argued that Shawn Michaels is one of the most infuential wrestlers of the last 15 years.
You talk about Austin and Rock puching and kicking each other seems real. If I am going to wrestle in a 60 mintue match I am obivously going to pace myself, and start out slow. So that match makes a lot of sense. I could understand why people say that match is boring, but IMO it's the quintessential wrestling match. It has everything from Psychology to High spots, and dramtiac ending. The whole match is perfect buildup to the ending.
So even the biggest HBK marks (which I am one) would never say he is on The Rock, Austin, or Hogan's level.
HBK is a Legend.
Nervous Ferret
03-08-2006, 08:30 PM
legend is a Legend.
McLegend
03-08-2006, 08:32 PM
Nah I'm not. I can accept it though.
Nervous Ferret
03-08-2006, 08:35 PM
no you really are. Also you have a match on shockWAVE :love:
You gunna promo, cause I'm putting you over either way :cool:
PureHatred
03-08-2006, 08:47 PM
Mr. X, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Nervous Ferret
03-08-2006, 08:50 PM
omg omg PH new sig :love:
Kane Knight
03-08-2006, 08:54 PM
Personally, I think HBK is a huge prick.
So fucking what?
Boondock Saint
03-09-2006, 12:01 AM
Haven't read all this but HBK is a legend. No question.
Aussie Skier
03-09-2006, 12:51 AM
its onyl lately that i've realised just how good HBK really is.
The unsanctioned match between HHH and HBK was amazing for one. Jericho vs HBK at WM19 was terrific and the angle VS HBK matches, well...i think i've run out of superlatives to describe just how good those matches were. Frankly, whoever started this post...I can't b bothered finding out exactly who it was, obviously knows nothing about the finer art of wrestling
ThruTheWire
03-09-2006, 01:13 AM
Haven't read all this but HBK is a legend. No question.
Yeah... You can't deny HBK's legend status.
Destor
03-09-2006, 01:21 AM
People who don't watch wrestling know who HBK is ( not ot the extent of Hogan, Austin, Rock or Flair but who is?) thus he is a legend.
the fact is HBK in my personal opinion is the greatest performer in WWE history....not greatest wrestler cause thats Fucking Angle
still to this day my favorite WWE match is HBK/Razor Wrestlemania 10 Ladder match
that match revolutionized the business at that point and nobody has topped it because with the exception of 4 ladder matches the rest were spotfests
and yes i'll list the 4 i'm talking about
HBK/Razor From Summerslam
Triple H/Rock From Summerslam
The Original TLC From Wrestlemania
Eddie Guerrero/RVD From RAW
Shawn is a true legend and personally i would like to see him inducted before Bret because while i respect Bret for is in ring performance i think he's a prick for the crap he pulled out of the ring
anybody that would sign with another promotion and refuse to drop a title is a piece of shit in my book
and since nobody else said this...to answer the thread question who does HBK think he is......
Well he's...THE SHOWSTOPPER...THE ICON....THE MAIN EVENT
THE HEARTBREAK KID
Honestly, I'm about as big a mark for Shawn's matches as anybody, but Mania 12 isn't as good as Rock/HHH, just because Rock/HHH was booked better, meaning they had a better match to work. Keeping people's interest with no pins for an hour doesn't lend itself to good drama. It was still a very good match, but I do think it's overrated. Similarly, despite that Shawn was champ at a bad time, and drew better than Diesel, but Bret drew better in the same time frame. Still, that doesn't detract from the excellence he put out time and again, and then upon return from his injury, at 80%, is still in the upper tier of great wrestlers.
Yes what you have just typed is absolutely ridiculous. I have no doubt that HBK was/is one of the biggest pricks in the history of the business, but it is practically impossible to dispute that he is a legend in the wrestling business and one of the greatest in-ring talents ever.
For your point about the Iron Man match with Bret, hey I agree that it wasn't the greatest. I quite frankly believe that his match with Hall at WM X, his match with Jericho at WM19, his match with Angle at WM 21 and the triple threat at WMXX were all better than the Iron Man match. But people within the industry (the one's that really know what they're on about) keep saying it was the greatest so they must have done something right.
Oh and as for your top five matches, HBK vs Taker was by far the better HIAC match.
wwe2222
03-09-2006, 09:25 AM
Oh and as for your top five matches, HBK vs Taker was by far the better HIAC match.
i def. agree...actually I think its the best hell in the cell theyve ever given us. And yes, HBK is a legend....i dont even feel the need to explain myself there, as everyone else has pretty much given you the argument.
Avenger
03-09-2006, 12:18 PM
So fucking what?LOL yeah true.
I'm a huge prick but that doesn't change how much of a legend I am...
wait a second...
:shifty:
94 SVT Cobra
03-09-2006, 12:21 PM
Michaels is a legend. He's one of the tops of the roster since the early 90s. He's busted his ass and performed brilliantly. And even if he wasn't in a single "top 5 match" (And he probably would be if I sat down and thought about it), he'd still be a legend.
^^ that and also. To the orginal poster there called paragraphs. You dont have to indent and be all perfectionist like, hell your paragragphs can even be more then 5 sentances a pieace, but please, my eyes were fucking killing me reading your post.
Avenger
03-09-2006, 12:22 PM
I can see where Jordan is coming from in his second post, I respect your opinion's man and it's not personal. But I just can't dispute the fact that HBK is the best wrestler of all-time in my opinion. And in the 90s and noughties there hasn't been a better match than HBK/Bret.
HBK would have sold more merchandise and sold more tickets if he was on top of the wrestling world when Austin, Rock or Hogan where. It was all circumstances, he is four or five times the performer either of them ever were.
Pepsi Man
03-09-2006, 12:33 PM
Shawn is a true legend and personally i would like to see him inducted before Bret because while i respect Bret for is in ring performance i think he's a prick for the crap he pulled out of the ring
anybody that would sign with another promotion and refuse to drop a title is a piece of shit in my book
I love how you pick out of that only what's convenient in making Bret Hart look bad. This topic's been done to death, but again, Vince McMahon persuaded Bret into signing with WCW, and he wasn't refusing to drop the title in general, just refusing to drop it to Shawn Michaels. That may not be great in itself, but it's not as bad as you make Bret out to be by leaving that little detail out.
But yeah, I'd much rather see active wrestlers inducted into the Hall of Fame than retired ones.
Avenger
03-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Ignore him Pepsi Man he clearly doesn't know the whole story. I am the last person to side with Bret, but this guy is talking shit.
Bret did it... FOR THE ROCK!
:shifty:
Wait, that makes no sense.
dablackguy
03-09-2006, 01:07 PM
Shawn = legend, also Shawn = prick
But so what? its like the baseball hall of fame, there are a ton of assholes in the MLB HOF. Bring pricks doesn't make them any less of legends.
HBK, isn't on the level of a Rock, Austin, or Hogan. Those guys were much better entertainers. In ring wise, he's superior to all of them. To me, what makes him great is his in ring ability, as well as some intangibles. I find him so believable in the ring and find his matches to be like a smooth flowing story.
HBK would have sold more merchandise and sold more tickets if he was on top of the wrestling world when Austin, Rock or Hogan where. It was all circumstances, he is four or five times the performer either of them ever were.
Incorrect. HBK was NEVER the draw any of those 3 were. In ring wise, he's past those guys, as a draw, absolutely not.
Pepsi Man
03-09-2006, 01:09 PM
Bret did it... FOR THE ROCK!
:shifty:
Wait, that makes no sense.
Damn it. Now they're gonna do that on Raw.
Avenger
03-09-2006, 01:31 PM
Shawn = legend, also Shawn = prick
But so what? its like the baseball hall of fame, there are a ton of assholes in the MLB HOF. Bring pricks doesn't make them any less of legends.
HBK, isn't on the level of a Rock, Austin, or Hogan. Those guys were much better entertainers. In ring wise, he's superior to all of them. To me, what makes him great is his in ring ability, as well as some intangibles. I find him so believable in the ring and find his matches to be like a smooth flowing story.
HBK would have sold more merchandise and sold more tickets if he was on top of the wrestling world when Austin, Rock or Hogan where. It was all circumstances, he is four or five times the performer either of them ever were.
Incorrect. HBK was NEVER the draw any of those 3 were. In ring wise, he's past those guys, as a draw, absolutely not.How can you say that?
Rock Austin and Hogan are the three luckiest guys in wrestling!
They all road the wave of a boom in wrestling.
If Rock was HBK it would have been a very similar story.
Shawn is a true legend and personally i would like to see him inducted before Bret because while i respect Bret for is in ring performance i think he's a prick for the crap he pulled out of the ring
anybody that would sign with another promotion and refuse to drop a title is a piece of shit in my book
Sorry, but Shawn refused to drop damn near every title he ever held. Bret said he would drop the belt, but not to Michaels in Canada, because when Bret told him he would job again for Michaels earlier in the year, Michaels said he would never job to Bret, so Bret didn't want to lose to Shawn if Shawn was so unprofessional. Anyways, lets not get into that whole thing again - basically, Shawn was phenomenal, he still is.
Kane Knight
03-09-2006, 02:45 PM
^^ that and also. To the orginal poster there called paragraphs. You dont have to indent and be all perfectionist like, hell your paragragphs can even be more then 5 sentances a pieace, but please, my eyes were fucking killing me reading your post.
I'm not sure if it's the irony or your spelling (And normal lack of sentences, paragraphs, or legibility) that makes my head hurt.
Kane Knight
03-09-2006, 02:50 PM
I love how you pick out of that only what's convenient in making Bret Hart look bad. This topic's been done to death, but again, Vince McMahon persuaded Bret into signing with WCW, and he wasn't refusing to drop the title in general, just refusing to drop it to Shawn Michaels. That may not be great in itself, but it's not as bad as you make Bret out to be by leaving that little detail out.
But yeah, I'd much rather see active wrestlers inducted into the Hall of Fame than retired ones.
You idiot. Michaels was a saint backstage, and Bret was a total cock. You fucking smarks make me sick, thinking you know anything about the real story. Bret made a pact with Satan and tried to corrupt Shawn, but Shawn was all "no, I'm too busy balancing my halo" and Bret was like "w/e i won't job 2 you harp boy" and then Shawn was like "no wai" and he was all "wai" and then they were fighting in the sandbox and Vince broke it up and he only lied to Bret because he feared Satan
McLegend
03-09-2006, 03:22 PM
How can you say that?
Rock Austin and Hogan are the three luckiest guys in wrestling!
They all road the wave of a boom in wrestling.
If Rock was HBK it would have been a very similar story.
They rode the wave of the boom in wrestling, because they were the big reasons why it boomed.
James Steele
03-09-2006, 03:56 PM
Damn, why do people make Bret Hart a saint when he does the childish "if he won't, I won't". 2 wrongs don't make a right, even for the Hitman.
Kane Knight
03-09-2006, 04:18 PM
They rode the wave of the boom in wrestling, because they were the big reasons why it boomed.
YEah, if anyone got lucky, it was Vince.
Kane Knight
03-09-2006, 04:19 PM
Damn, why do people make Bret Hart a saint when he does the childish "if he won't, I won't". 2 wrongs don't make a right, even for the Hitman.
Who exactly has canonised him?
Jordan
03-09-2006, 05:20 PM
Hahaha... ok guys im defeated what can I say? Honestly HBK is one of the most influental wrestlers of all time, if not the most influental ever... I don't deny that at all... When I posted my original topic, I had been drinking a bit and was kinda just pissed at HBK. My original post wasn't intended to be about "HBK not being a legend", it was more to say "HBK still has a lot to prove if he wants to be as great as he thinks he is". He is a legend no doubt, I retract my orignal statement. I was wrong.
ALSO
The matches I listed are not MY top 5 matched of all time, im just saying that those are probably the general fans top matches of all time... In my opinion the top five WWE matches are...
5. Steve Austin v.s Triple H at No Way Out 2001
4. Owen Hart v.s Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 10
3. Ricky Steamboat v.s Randy Savage at Wresltemania 3
2. Steve Austin v.s The Rock at Wrestlemania 17
1. Bret Hart v.s Steve Austin at Wrestlemania 13
Shawn Michaels has a lot to proove to me... he has had amazing matches, so many... Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, The Undertaker, Razor Ramon, Jericho, Triple H, Diesel, Jarrett... But still he should keep going! Right now, he is no where near WWE Title status, yet he is one of the best wrestlers on the roster? Why? Because his personality, it's an old gimmick, maybe if he modernized himself and stopped making us feel stupid by hearing that ridiculous 90's entrance theme and stopped try to play himself off as a "heartbreak kid" who is BALDING... why can't he just be himself? That's what he did in DX, and that was amazing... when he had the feud with Hogan, his promo's were off the charts! But now, we get the same old lame "underdog" that we always used to have. How the hell can a legend be an underdog... nobody is scared of HBK why? He has weak offense, he always just gets his ass kicked and then comes out of nowhere and knocks someone out... that's not belivable to me anymore. There is a lot he has to proove, he has to have feuds with John Cena, Big Show, RVD, Batista, Orton, Benoit, JBL, this list could go on...
So in conclusion, I made myself look like a fool by saying he is not a legend, I know, I feel dumb. But he needs some more title feuds to become along the lines of Hogan/Rock/Austin/Flair.
Oh and to avenger, I appreciate your last post I thought it was very mature, to all of you other guys who are slamming me for my opinions on wrestling or doubting my knowledge on the history of the sport, just chill out and try have a debate without personal attacks, it might make this place a lot more fun.
dablackguy
03-09-2006, 05:39 PM
How can you say that?
Rock Austin and Hogan are the three luckiest guys in wrestling!
They all road the wave of a boom in wrestling.
If Rock was HBK it would have been a very similar story.
See what the posteres before me have said.
Also, by making a statement like if Rock was HBK... you basically assume that just ANYONE could have been SCSA or The Rock. Which we all know is simply untrue. Not just anyone could have had those gimmicks. It was also the differences in their characters that made them such great rivals which in turn, helped both of their careers
watch brets damn dvd and you'll see that he refused to drop the title to ANYBODY
bret signed with wcw on his own and he admitted it in the damn dvd
i'm not saying shawn was a saint cause he admitted to everything he's done backstage in his book and he holds nothing back
bret is a piece of shit who did'nt give a damn about anybody but his own damn self he even admitted in his book that he should have stayed with wwe so he would have been there with owen
now uphold your hero some more
Jordan
03-09-2006, 06:18 PM
Well, I read in a recent interview that when HBK came in to reff the match between Taker and Hart at SS 97, afterwards Bret went to HBK and said that he was cool with him now and that he would job to him and HBK said he wouldn't do the same. I think that after all that they had already went through, and its a lot, that was very remarkable of Hart to say, and very disrespectful for HBK to say. Yeah Hart should have jobbed at Suvivor Series, and he would have if HBK would have been a proffesional, not a stuck up egomaniac. Sure, two wrongs dont make a right, but obviously Hart is very prideful of his country and his sport, it meant a hell of a lot more to him than it did HBK.
Let's face it here folks, both (all three if you count Vince) aren't telling the whole truth in any interview, DVD, book, whatever. There are obviously bits and pieces that are true, but we won't get the absolute whole truth from any person or any number of people.
Avenger
03-09-2006, 06:36 PM
LOL
Austin, Rock, Hogan - Vince made and broke all three of these guys.
Avenger
03-09-2006, 06:36 PM
ok not Rock
McLegend
03-09-2006, 06:46 PM
No not really. Yes Vince gave them the opportunity to become big, and marketed them incredibly well. Still though the 3 of them deserve all the credit in the world for becomming famous.
All 3 of them cut the promos and the had the matches, and had a distinct look and style. So yes of course Vince helped made them, but still most of the credit for them being so famous deserves to go to them.
Avenger
03-09-2006, 06:56 PM
But you can hardly Rock and Austin created the Attitude era?
And that Hogan created the 80s boom?
The rode the wave of the boom that those who had come just before them had created, I am not saying they are great entertainers and decent wrestlers. But if HBK had come at the same time as Rock and Austin hit their peak he would've been a bigger star. He had the mic skills and in ring skills.
HBK helped start that Attitude era anyway.
Kane Knight
03-09-2006, 07:01 PM
But you can hardly Rock and Austin created the Attitude era
BUH?
Jordan
03-09-2006, 07:07 PM
The Attitude era started when Austin said "Austin 3:16 says I just whipped your ass!"
McLegend
03-09-2006, 08:51 PM
But you can hardly Rock and Austin created the Attitude era?
And that Hogan created the 80s boom?
The rode the wave of the boom that those who had come just before them had created, I am not saying they are great entertainers and decent wrestlers. But if HBK had come at the same time as Rock and Austin hit their peak he would've been a bigger star. He had the mic skills and in ring skills.
HBK helped start that Attitude era anyway.
I know HBK was one of the wrestles that started the attiude era. If HBk never got hurt he could have become even bigger during The attidude era. I know that.
Rock and Austin might not have started the Attidude Era(well Austin did) but they kept it going and IMO that's just as important as starting it. They are the main reasons why wrestling was so big in the 90's. Yes Hogan was the main reason for the boom in the 80's wheather you like him or not. Sure he had a lot of talented oppopnents that really helped him get over he didn't do it alone, but he was still the main reason for the boom in the 80's.
Also I think Hogan was another big reason why there was a boom in the late 90's. I honestly never remember hearing about WCW before Hogan turned heel. That's because I was such a big WWE mark I had no idea WCW existed. So Hogan is a main reason for the 2 big booms in professional wrestling.
Like I said wheather you like them or not they deserve most if not all of the credit for making themselves so famous.
Kane Knight
03-09-2006, 09:46 PM
Hulkamania and Austin 3:16 did not ride a boom. There really was no boom at that point.
You can make a case for he Rock, as he was really created in the beginning of the Attitude era, and even then, he wasn't over as the popularity was swelling. However, by the time the Attitude Era was in full gear, he was already huge and established. However, even then, whether or not he was made by or made the era is debatable
Pepsi Man
03-09-2006, 11:57 PM
Damn, why do people make Bret Hart a saint when he does the childish "if he won't, I won't". 2 wrongs don't make a right, even for the Hitman.
I didn't say he was a saint, but the conveniently omitted facts about the whole situation make Bret look WORSE THAN is fair, to everyone, whatever their general opinions are.
Kane Knight
03-10-2006, 11:13 AM
Yeah, but not demonising BRet is sainting him.
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