So I just watched the Samoa Joe/Kobashi match that was posted here...

[KingofOldSchool]

Seriously, what made the match so great?

Wow watching two men throw stiff kicks, chops, and knees for 20 minutes is AWESOME and deserves a "Match of the Year" chant!

No seriously, what made the match so great? There was zero psychology and nothing technical about it. I think there's been more psychology used in a Mark Henry match.

Outside of the "ooooo" and "awww" factor from the stiffness, that match sucked.

Oh and P.S. JBL's clothsline > Kobashi's clothsline

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Zero psychology...except for Joe using a bunch of moves from Kobashi's former opponents against him. Y'know, little touches like that. I'm gonna assume you haven't really watched much if any other Kobashi matches, either that or you weren't paying attention. Also, psychology is a broader term than just one guy working over a limb and the other guy selling it.

Plus, y'know, not every match is the same. You're not going to get Benoit or whoever you care to name style in every match. Neither man is a 'technical' wrestler, they are hard-hitting strikers who mix in some occasional submissions. The match was built to play to their strengths, not have them go out and try to do something they're neither known for or do regularly. Seriously, if you pay to see Rey Mysterio you don't want to see him trading wristlocks for 20 minutes, you want to see him fly. What's so hard to understand about that, exactly?

And the match told a story. Kobashi is a legend of the last 15 years, Joe pretty much built RoH and is arguably the top indy guy in the States. Joe threw everything he had at Kobashi in an attempt to win and defend his home turf, and for a long time was on an equal footing, but ultimately came up just slightly short. It raised Joe's standing tremendously, and Kobashi looked as good as he ever has in the last 5 years or so.

Still, you're welcome to your opinion.

[KingofOldSchool]

Zero psychology...except for Joe using a bunch of moves from Kobashi's former opponents against him. Y'know, little touches like that. I'm gonna assume you haven't really watched much if any other Kobashi matches, either that or you weren't paying attention. Also, psychology is a broader term than just one guy working over a limb and the other guy selling it.

Plus, y'know, not every match is the same. You're not going to get Benoit or whoever you care to name style in every match. Neither man is a 'technical' wrestler, they are hard-hitting strikers who mix in some occasional submissions. The match was built to play to their strengths, not have them go out and try to do something they're neither known for or do regularly. Seriously, if you pay to see Rey Mysterio you don't want to see him trading wristlocks for 20 minutes, you want to see him fly. What's so hard to understand about that, exactly?

And the match told a story. Kobashi is a legend of the last 15 years, Joe pretty much built RoH and is arguably the top indy guy in the States. Joe threw everything he had at Kobashi in an attempt to win and defend his home turf, and for a long time was on an equal footing, but ultimately came up just slightly short. It raised Joe's standing tremendously, and Kobashi looked as good as he ever has in the last 5 years or so.

Still, you're welcome to your opinion.

So basically by that logic I can say that a CZW backyard match can be a great match?

I mean two guys hit each other with light bulb tubes for 20 minutes...yet they both keep coming back for more. And then the other guy uses a few of his opponents moves on him. And one staple gun shot later and the match is over.

By your theory that could be passed as a "good" match as well.

[The One]

Samoa Joe is going to become the next Bret Hart...in that fans of his can't see him do anything wrong, and non-fans can't see him do anything worth watching.

As for the match in question...I have seen it, and it in no way should be counted amoung the best matches of the year.

[KingofOldSchool]

Now I'm not saying Samoa Joe is shit...I think he is good to an extent. I just find that match overrated.

[Skippord]

Joe is Overrated

[The One]

Joe is the most Overrated indy guy ever

[KingofOldSchool]

Joe is Overrated

I'd take Chris Fucking Sabin or Samoa Fat Joe.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Whoo, completely missed the point there. Let's see if I can break this down. Gonna have to assume you've never watched any Japanese wrestling before, or at least AJPW-type stuff, because that's what it sounds like.

a) He didn't use his opponents moves, ok? Kobashi over the last 15 years or so has fought certain guys in AJPW and NOAH countless times, and those feuds will probably be remembered forever in Japanese wrestling history. So Joe using some of the moves from guys like Misawa and Kawada was both a nod to Kobashi's past, a way of Joe trying to get into his head, and also a little paying of respect to him and them.

b) If a match is constructed properly and builds to something, then it can be great, regardless of (or perhaps because of, in some cases) situation or stipulation. Look at something like Raven/Stevie Richards vs the Pitbulls, Double Dog Collars, in ECW. That match had weapons and crazy crap all over the place, but it was very, very carefully constructed to build to a payoff, which is why it worked.

c) I get the sense you're a little pissed that the match ended with a lariat...again I'm assuming you have zero knowledge of Kobashi here but that lariat has pretty much been built as instant death. He hit more than one of his finishers (I forget exactly what, haven't watched the match in a while) as did Joe, and had to pull out his never-fail, last-chance move to get the win. Also you should perhaps bear in mind that they leaned towards a Japanese style of match in terms of selling and psychology, quite often in Japan a match will end with something like a lariat, roaring elbow, or whatever, after the big moves have been hit, because both guys are down to the very last dregs of energy and basically whoever hits a move first gets the win. I realise it's a stark contrast to the US style but it's something you can only really appreciate by watching.

d) I neglected to mention the crowd was insanely hot, which helped the match a lot. Also, chances are if you bought a ticket to that match, you knew who Kobashi was, you knew who Joe was, and you knew what to expect, and the match was put together with that in mind.

I don't particularly think it was a MOTY or anything, but I did enjoy it a lot, and it was well put together. Again, you can think whatever you please, but to just say "that match sucked" when like 75% of it went straight over your head (or so it seems) is pretty ignorant.

[The One]

I'd take Chris Fucking Sabin or Samoa Fat Joe.

Even with his new Hair cut??? :eek: God, his hair makes Boy George look like Bruce Willis.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Right now I dunno what to make of Joe btw. It seems IMO he isn't very adaptable and relies on other guys being able to adapt to his style to make a match work. When it does work it can be very good, when it doesn't it can be a bit messy. If when it happens Joe vs Jarrett will almost certainly be a clusterfuck, for example (then again what Jarrett match isn't)

Still better than Masters though.

[The One]

If your measuring stick is Chris Masters....then that's just sad.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

If Chris Masters is a member of your roster, that's sad.

Dunno, that was an attempt at humour, guess I failed :(

[What Would Kevin Do?]

The match wasn't bad. It was a different style of match, which has already been said. Joe, for the most part, was wrestling a Japanese style match that played into them striking a lot more.

Ultimately, the match was like a pissing contest, seeing who could take more, who had the desire to keep going, etc. Plus, Joe breaks out moves from Kobashi's old opponents, as he knows they work against him (KENTA and Marufuji do the same thing when playing underdog roles)

(BTW, the Lariat isn't Kobashi's rare super move of death. That prize goes to the burning hammer.)

[BlackDawn2024]

I'm surprised Joe's fans got his dick out of their mouth long enough to start the "This Is Awesome" chant.

[Mr. Monday Morning]

(BTW, the Lariat isn't Kobashi's rare super move of death. That prize goes to the burning hammer.)

Didn't he hit the burning hammer though? Like I said, I haven't watched the match in a while.

Also I was under the impression burning hammer has been scaled down a little recently? Correct me if I'm wrong but it used to be something like Moonsault > Orange Crush > Burning Hammer but in recent years since he basically can't do the moonsault it's more like Lariat > Burning Hammer > ? (half nelson 'plex?) *shrug*

I haven't really watched a lot of NOAH though aside from a match or two from near the start where he fought Akiyama, I think it was.

[UmbrellaCorporation]

I don't find the big appeal either.

Joe = Overrated.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

As far as I know, the burning hammer was his "rare" finisher. He does it alot, but it's not his common finisher. The burning lariet has always been his primary finisher as long as I remember. He normally (or at least used to) bust out the burning hammer when all else failed.

In Noah, he's also started using a wrist-clutch burning hammer (not horrible different from Jun Akiyama's sternness dust.) But yeah, if you want to classify his finishers, Burning Hammer would be the highest one.

Also, I don't think he actually hit Joe with the burning hammer. I have the DVD, I'll check it eventually ( I only watched the match once, and that was online.) I think he went for it, but didn't get it.

Anyway, if he hit the burning hammer, he would have won with it. There's no way in hell Joe, even if he is viewed as one of the better indy guys, would kick out of the Burning Hammer. That's basically a kill move that you don't kick out of unless you're really big shit in a really big match (IE, Misawa.)

[James Steele]

I can't stand Samoa Joe. He is a fat ugly Samoan guy who works stiff and does a chokehold. BEHOLD!!!!

[What Would Kevin Do?]

For the record

Joe is not the god he is made out to be.

But Joe is not a bad wrestler by any means. I don't treat Joe like he's the end all/be all, but he is one of my favorite wrestlers right now...

But Joe has nothing on the true Indy God...


Jimmy Jacobs.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I can't stand Samoa Joe. He is a fat ugly Samoan guy who works stiff and does a chokehold. BEHOLD!!!!
He's an indy wrestler...

All indy wrestlers work stiff.

[The Fugitive]

I just watched that match, no burning hammer.

[Joesgonnakillyou]

Only Joe mark on TPWW?

i'll deal

I'm guessing that match was probably the equivilent of watching half hour of comedy full of in-jokes.

[Skippord]

Even with his new Hair cut??? :eek: God, his hair makes Boy George look like Bruce Willis.
Yeah I dont know what he was on with that hair :nono:

[James Steele]

He's an indy wrestler...

All indy wrestlers work stiff.

Of course. :roll:

[Innovator]

For the record

Joe is not the god he is made out to be.

But Joe is not a bad wrestler by any means. I don't treat Joe like he's the end all/be all, but he is one of my favorite wrestlers right now...

But Joe has nothing on the true Indy God...


Jimmy Jacobs.Jimmy now has the best entrance in ROH

[Innovator]

And you're wrong, Joe is pretty much God

[.44 Magdalene]

I keep thinking Joesgonnakillyou is somebody I know personally.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Jimmy now has the best entrance in ROH

Laaaacceeeyyy... Put me in your top 8 when you Myspace me.

[Bad Company]

rofl @ that match.... "This is awesome" after a tie up and a couple of chops. Weak as fuck.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

rofl @ that match.... "This is awesome" after a tie up and a couple of chops. Weak as fuck.

Not to defend anyone, but if you're talking about the chant at the begining of the match, it could be their excitement at actually seeing Kobashi, who is a huge star and all.

[Jonster]

I just watched it, I enjoyed it, but I can't see it as a match of the year.

[redoneja]

Good match. Good departure from the usual stuff you see in America. Worked the King's Road style very well. Match of the year?? No. Good?? Yes