Old-time unwritten rules in baseball

[The Miz]

This is inspired by the Orioles/Yankees game yesterday. With the Orioles up 6 runs, Corey Patterson steals second and then third. Yankee's third base coach Larry Bowa screams at him something to the effect of "Play the game the right way". Now to me, this kind of shit is so stupid. Does Bowa think a 6-run game is unwinnable? Has no major league team ever come back from that kind of deficit? Bowa must have a pretty short-term memory, because I recall just a few weeks ago his Yankees coming back from 9-0 to beat the Rangers. Now if it's 18-0, stealing 2nd and 3rd is clearly stat-padding. But in today's game, Patterson deciding to get himself into scoring position instead of staying put to obey baseball's outdated unwritten rules could be the difference in the game.

Another example came yesterday with Lastings Milledge offending the old-school guys by give high-fives to the fans as he went back to his position after hitting a 10th inning, 2 out, game-tying home run for the first of his career. Guys on his own team called him out saying that kind of thing has consequences. Why? He wasn't showing up the Giants, he wasn't disrupting play, he was simply acknowledging the fans in between innings. Football players jump into the stands and do dances or whatever after TDs, how is this any different? Because guys like Larry Bowa think because they played in the 70's that they are the authority on what young guys can and cannot do, and that "the game is supposed to be played a certain way".

Basically, I'm tired of outdated unwritten rules of baseball dictating everything. I know several people who don't like baseball who describe the players as robots. I think it'd be great for the game if there was more fan interaction, there are plenty of things you can do to get the fans excited without showing up the other team. You don't have to pull a TO and grab the ball and run to the mound and pose but it wouldn't hurt if these guys showed more personality.

And I'm tired of guys being afraid to keep trying to win at the risk of being beaned next at-bat. As a Mariners fan I know all too well, the Indians proved 5 years ago that even a 12-run lead is not safe.

Fuck old baseball geezers who preach "playing the game it was meant to be played", and fuck Larry Bowa. Its time to move on

[CNM]

Yep, I agree with all of what you said. Sadly, baseball always refusing to keep up with the times is what has allowed the NFL to become the dominant league in the US.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Even though I am probably alone on this one, why does everyone flip out over bunting to break up a no hitter? So swinging the bat and hitting the ball isn't working today, why not try something else?

Bunting is apart of the game, and if a player gets a hit off a bunt he is getting a hit, why is that different then hitting a bloop single over the 2nd basemen's head? The intent is different yeah, but both players are trying to do the samething - get on base. I don't get why the hitters should try to make it easier for the pitcher to get a no hitter, I wouldn't wanna be on the losing side of a no hitter personally.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

I took Sports Philosophy at school last semester and we talked about unwritten rules a lot. They happen in all sports (obviously) and the grey area is there for all of them. It is tough because it was ones personal feelings versus another. In this case (Being down 6 runs) I don't see an issue, 6 runs isn't a lot in terms of baseball.

[The Miz]

Even though I am probably alone on this one, why does everyone flip out over bunting to break up a no hitter? So swinging the bat and hitting the ball isn't working today, why not try something else?

Bunting is apart of the game, and if a player gets a hit off a bunt he is getting a hit, why is that different then hitting a bloop single over the 2nd basemen's head? The intent is different yeah, but both players are trying to do the samething - get on base. I don't get why the hitters should try to make it easier for the pitcher to get a no hitter, I wouldn't wanna be on the losing side of a no hitter personally.

I agree completely on this one. I remember when Curt Schilling cried like a little bitch when Ben Davis bunted to break up his no-no. The game was 2-0, Curt. It was still very winnable for the Padres and on a day when you aren't getting hits, you need to try to do anything you can to get on base.

And when Brad Penny through at Shinjo for swinging at a 3-0 count when the Mets were up big. LOL. What a loser

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Yeah I am not gonna lie I really hated Schilling until he joined the Red Sox, so I am not surprised he did that haha

[Joey Slugs]

the unwritten rules are there for a reason. so no one person can ever make themselves bigger than the game.

keep 'em. fuck off if you don't think so. most people that think that way have never played the game a day in their lives.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Uhhh I dont think anyone is saying the unwritten rules need to be eliminated from sports.

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

But how exactly do the unwritten rules keep players from keeping themselves bigger than "the game?"

I've always liked quote that, they look great/sound great and everything but what do they really mean? How do you become "bigger than the game"? Because I am pretty sure there is a lot of guys in professional sports who feel they are bigger than the game, and the unwritten rules are not stopping them from doing so.

One other thing I've noticed about unwritten rules is how baseball players/commentors seem to think baseball is the only sport with them. They never really come out and say it, but it is implied a lot.

[Skippord]

Yep, I agree with all of what you said. Sadly, baseball always refusing to keep up with the times is what has allowed the NFL to become the dominant league in the US.
Well that and Football not sucking

[Skippord]

God I hate the Rockies

[loopydate]

the unwritten rules are there for a reason. so no one person can ever make themselves bigger than the game.

keep 'em. fuck off if you don't think so. most people that think that way have never played the game a day in their lives.

:lol: Did you take that from the MLBPA website or something?

There's nothing wrong with trying to help your team win by doing things like putting yourself in scoring position or getting on base. If the unwritten rules were that important, they'd...y'know...write 'em down.

[The Miz]

the unwritten rules are there for a reason. so no one person can ever make themselves bigger than the game.

keep 'em. fuck off if you don't think so. most people that think that way have never played the game a day in their lives.

Did you even read my post? How is Patterson trying to get his team a more comfortable lead making himself "bigger than the game"? How is Milledge acknowledging the fans making himself "bigger than the game"? What does that even mean?

I love the "you never played, so don't talk to me" retort. I did play, in fact I was quite good, full athletic scholarship to Oregon St. before injury ended my career. Top 25 HS prospect in the state of Washington in 2002. But whether I played or not does not effect my right to have a valid opinion on the subject of baseball. There are plenty of brilliant baseball minds who never played past little league. Where would we be today without Bill James or Voros McCracken? Are you saying you don't value Peter Gammons' opinion? And there are plenty of guys who played the game for a long time, and were quite good, who are complete morons. Joe Morgan, Ken Harrelson, Rick Sutcliffe, Rex Hudler are a few that come to mind who played in MLB and are borderline retarded.

Its guys like you I'm talking about. You don't even think. What happens if Corey Patterson stays at first because he doesn't want to offend idiots like you, and the Orioles lose the game by one run when Patterson would have scored had he got himself in scoring position. What happens if Ben Davis swings away and makes an out, when if he bunts the next guy homers and ties the game 2-2. When it comes down to it, there are only two statistics that mean anything in baseball:

WIN
LOSS

As someone who played the game, because that is so important to you, I know that plays like these can be the difference in which one of those statistics your team accumulates. My sophomore year in high school, my team ran a suicide squeeze up 8-2. We won that game 9-8. We may have pissed off the old-school manager running the other team, but it was worth it, know why? Because we won.

The reason unwritten rules aren't written is because then everyone would see how stupid they are.

[BCWWF]

The Patterson steal isn't even worth mentioning, because Larry Bowa is a spaz and an idiot and I think basically everybody here already agrees it wasn't bad.

The Milledge thing is what I wanted to talk about the most. I only saw it for a few seconds on Sports Center and they said something like "His teammates will have a talk with him later," or something. I immediately thought that was stupid. Seriously, the most fun I have had at baseball games is sitting in left field when the Twins play at Kauffman and getting Lew Ford to tip his hat or have Joe Mauer throw us the ball he warmed up with. One of my friends told Mauer to hit us a home run, and he responded "What seat are you in?" What is the problem with the players acknowledging their fans? From my experience, baseball players have more in common with their fans than NBA or NFL, but it seems like baseball players have less interaction also. If you were one of those guys in the front row, that would be something you remember forever. Baseball is supposed to be fun and the players are real people, let them have some fun with the people paying their salaries.

As for the bunting in a no-hitter, my opinion kind of lies in the middle. The one with Curt Schilling, where it was 2-0 in the seventh or whatever, is perfectly legit to bunt. You don't just lay down with three innings left because the pitcher might do something big. If the game is a blowout, I would say a lead of at least five runs with less than two innings left, there is no point, but if it's a close game then it should only be about winning.

[The Miz]

Shut up BCWWF, you never played the game so your opinion doesn't count. Why don't you read up on the wise words of HALL-OF-FAMER Joe Morgan

--

One of the things I've always liked about baseball is that anyone can play it. Meaning, you don't have to be an athletic freak like you do in football or basketball. There are the Fluties and the Nashes but for the most part if you aren't 6'5" with a 400 bench press you aren't gonna make it. You can be average-sized or small and still be just as good as a huge guy. This is why I think baseball players have more in common with the fans and it doesn't hurt to show it

[YOUR Hero]

There needs to be some respect for the team you are playing. The Patterson example is a poor one. A poor one for Bowa. The only way it's a bit ish is because he also stole 3rd. Had he only stole 2nd, Bowa has 0% of an argument. It jumps to about 7.71% with the steal of third.

Lastings is young and could be considered out of place for hot dogging it. I personally don't mind 'some' of that. What I fear is baseball turning into the gong show basketball and football sometimes does.

Running slow or with a 'flap down' after hitting a HR is another big no-no, as is running hard at the 2nd basemen when you are already up a ton.

[Joey Slugs]

Unwritten Rules

Never put the tying or go-ahead run on base.
Play for the tie at home, go for the victory on the road.
Don't hit and run with an 0-2 count.
Don't play the infield in early in the game.
Never make the first or third out at third.
Never steal when you're two or more runs down.
Don't steal when you're well ahead.
Don't steal third with two outs.
Don't bunt for a hit when you need a sacrifice.
Never throw behind the runner.
Left and right fielders concede everything to center fielder.
Never give up a home run on an 0-2 count.
Never let the score influence the way you manage.
Don't go against the percentages.
Take a strike when your club is behind in a ballgame.
Leadoff hitter must be a base stealer. Designated hitter must be a power hitter.
Never give an intentional walk if first base is occupied.
With runners in scoring position and first base open, walk the number eight hitter to get to the pitcher.
In rundown situations, always run the runner back toward the base from which he came.
If you play for one run, that's all you'll get.
Don't bunt with a power hitter up.
Don't take the bat out of your best hitter's hands by sacrificing in front of him.
Only use your bullpen stopper in late-inning situations.
Don't use your stopper in a tie game - only when you're ahead.
Hit behind the runner at first.
If one of your players gets knocked down by a pitch, retaliate.
Hit the ball where it's pitched.
A manager should remain detached from his players.
Never mention a no-hitter while it's in progress.
With a right-hander on the mound, don't walk a right-handed hitter to pitch to a left-handed hitter.


Some of them make little sense, but for the most part they all still stand. It's like the simple things of "always run it out" when you hit a ground ball or pop out. It's all a way of keeping the younger players from showing off or showing up the other team.

And to Miz.

I'm glad you have had all of the accolades in life. I know all too well of an injury that ends a young promising career. But if you have played the game, you then understand why even the "unwritten" rules are important to the game. You can call Bowa and rest idiots all you want... but there will ALWAYS be "old school" players (young and old) who choose to play the game the right way... win or lose.

[Bad Company]

ROFL, With rules like that it's no wonder baseballs going down the shitter. At least cricket is trying to modernise itself.
Never put the tying or go-ahead run on base? If that means what I think it means, that's the most stupid thing I've ever seen.

[Skippord]

Don't bunt with a power hitter up.

Come the fuck on

[Joey Slugs]

This is actually a better list....

1.0. Don't embarrass yourself, your teammates or your opponent.

1.1. Never show up an umpire on balls and strikes.

1.2. Never steal a base when leading by a bunch of runs. Rickey Henderson was the all-time offender, once taking second base with the Brewers' defense playing back and his team leading 12-5 in the seventh inning. "There are certain things you don't do," Milwaukee manager Davey Lopes said. "You don't stop competing; what you stop doing is manufacturing runs."

1.3. Never show up an opposing pitcher after hitting a home run off him. This is includes such no-nos as Ruben Sierra's funky-chicken dance step and Jeffrey Leonard's one flap down. Taking a long time to get around the bases is considered taboo. Scott Rolen of the Cardinals is one who does it the right way -- drop the bat and run around the bases.

1.4. Always run onto the field in support of your teammates or players after a fight breaks out. Indians manager Charlie Manuel once was suspended for two games for running onto the field from the clubhouse.Manuel had been ejected from the game but said he could not in good conscience stay in the clubhouse while his players were throwing haymakers.

1.45. Don't fraternize with opposing players.

1.45. (a) Players who don't run onto the field in support, or who fraternize with opposing players, shall be fined by a kangaroo court.

1.45. (b) Kangaroo courts shall exist in every major league clubhouse and operate by their own set of unwritten rules. See Jay Buhner, Mariners, 1988-2001.

2.0. Play the game the right way.

2.1. Never lay down a bunt to break up a no-hitter. Ben Davis, then with the Padres, did this against Curt Schilling, then with the Diamondbacks, in the eighth inning of a 2001 game. The single brought the tying run to the plate, but Davis was heavily criticized -- even his manhood was called into question. "Ben Davis is young and has a lot to learn," Arizona manager Bob Brenly said. "That was just uncalled for."

2.2. When breaking up a double play, always go in with a clean slide. Rangers catcher Pudge Rodriguez went out of his way to take out Cleveland shortstop Omar Vizquel in 1994; Vizquel suffered torn knee ligaments, spent seven weeks on the DL, and the Indians were fighting mad.

2.3. Always throw a fastball on a 3-0 count.

2.35. Never swing at a 3-0 pitch when your team has a comfortable lead. Vladimir Guerrero swung at a 3-0 offering in a 2001 game against the Mets with his team leading 10-0, and pitcher Turk Wendell promptly drilled him.

2.4. Never put the tying or go-ahead run on first base.

2.45. Unless you are playing the Giants and Barry Bonds represents the tying or go-ahead run.

2.5. Never make the first or third out of an inning at third base.

2.6 Always run out ground balls, even routine ones. Hustle in, hustle out. This rule does not apply to all; Ken Griffey Jr., for example, never read the unwritten rules during his stay with the Mariners.

2.7. Never interrupt a pitcher's focus by talking to him before a start.

2.75. Applicable to broadcasters and players alike, never mention "no-hitter" when a pitcher has one working.

2.8. Never steal another team's signs -- or at least never get caught doing so. It is particularly taboo for the batter to peek at the catcher's signs from the batter's box. Stealing signs from second base is considered gamesmanship but still requires retribution.

2.9. Pitchers must work inside to keep opposing batters honest but must never throw at a batter's head.

2.95. Pitchers must retaliate for egregious acts committed by opposing pitchers.

[Joey Slugs]

ROFL, With rules like that it's no wonder baseballs going down the shitter. At least cricket is trying to modernise itself.
Never put the tying or go-ahead run on base? If that means what I think it means, that's the most stupid thing I've ever seen.

It doesn't mean what you think it does. It means that a team should not intentionally walk a batter that will represent the tying or go-ahead run.

[The Miz]

"Ben Davis is young and has a lot to learn," Arizona manager Bob Brenly said. "That was just uncalled for."

LMAO

[Joey Slugs]

The Milledge thing is what I wanted to talk about the most. I only saw it for a few seconds on Sports Center and they said something like "His teammates will have a talk with him later," or something. I immediately thought that was stupid. Seriously, the most fun I have had at baseball games is sitting in left field when the Twins play at Kauffman and getting Lew Ford to tip his hat or have Joe Mauer throw us the ball he warmed up with. One of my friends told Mauer to hit us a home run, and he responded "What seat are you in?" What is the problem with the players acknowledging their fans? From my experience, baseball players have more in common with their fans than NBA or NFL, but it seems like baseball players have less interaction also. If you were one of those guys in the front row, that would be something you remember forever. Baseball is supposed to be fun and the players are real people, let them have some fun with the people paying their salaries.



There is nothing wrong with trying to get a ball or two during BP or yelling at a player to try to get him to wave between innings... I'm all for it. I do it too. But what Milledge did was show up the Giants. If he wants to celebrate and slap high fives with the fans... then do it after the last out of the game. There is a reason even his own teammates were going to talk to him after. It was disrespectful. Plain and simple. Showing up is uncalled for.

[Skippord]

It was his first home run in the MLB give him a break

[Adder]

I'm sure he's hit HRs in the minors. That said, yeah he's a raw rookie and what he did wasn't purposely done to show anyone up.

[Adder]

I'm sure he's hit HRs in the minors. That said, yeah he's a raw rookie and what he did wasn't purposely done to show anyone up.

[road doggy dogg]

LOL @ terrible rules

I agree with Miz. Play to win.

[Stickman]

YOu play to win and you play to win at all times. Even if you're up by 40. The only difference is, when it's late in the game and you know you have it won, you just take out your star players and put the lower talent players. But the replacements still play their hearts out like every inning is his last. If by bunting a no hinter, stealing 2nd and thrid, or swining at a 3-0 count, is going to give you a chance to win a game, go for it. There's a reason baseball is probably the worst sport to watch in North America.

[loopydate]

Unwritten Rules
Never steal when you're two or more runs down.
Don't steal when you're well ahead.
Take a strike when your club is behind in a ballgame.
Don't use your stopper in a tie game - only when you're ahead.

and

Never let the score influence the way you manage.

are contradictory. If you're changing your strategy on stealing bases, taking strikes, and using your closer, you are letting the score influence the way you manage.

[Loose Cannon]

hmmm, I don't think TY Cobb followed any of those rules.

I played up to college and always played "fair" but if I had a chance to make something happen, I was going to do whatever I had to.

"You Play to win the game."

[The Miz]

loopydate, you never played the game. Those rules make perfect sense, just ask former NATIONAL LEAGUE ALL-STAR Larry Bowa

[Joey Slugs]

loopydate, you never played the game. Those rules make perfect sense, just ask former NATIONAL LEAGUE ALL-STAR Larry Bowa

if you are just going to be a young fucking punk about it, then there is no point to this conversation.

i stated my opinion and you stated yours. no need to prove that you're an asshole.

[The Miz]

lol what? Are you going to respond to my second post or just post a long list of rules that are contradictory?

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

Unwritten rules are suppose to be just common sense, if you steal and you are up like 10 runs and it is the bottom of the 8th that isn't cool. Every sport in the world has "unwritten rules" but nobody ever says anything about them because they are all perfectly reasonable. Baseball's "unwritten rules" seem to be brought way too often, thus making them a bit unreasonable if you really think about it.

I dunno how giving high fives to fans on the way out to the outfield is showing up your opponent though, how is that any worse then watching your homerun fly out of the park, or celebrating a big catch in the outfield when the game isn't even over yet? (Last Yankees/Red Sox game comes to mind :( )

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

-double post

BTW you don't give run play action with less than 2 minutes in the game with a 7+ point lead
you don't hit the QB in practice
you don't kick an onside kick with lead in the 4th

haha see what I mean? Like come on

[weather vane]

If you get plunked don't steal second right after. I never understood that one.

[Lara Emily]

"Never make the first or third out at third"

Is that from the offensive or defensive POV, if it's from the offensive POV then it makes sense if it's from the defensive then fuck that.

[CNM]

Offensive POV. It just means don't be too aggressive on the base paths and get thrown out at third. i.e. trying to stretch a double into a triple