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Destor
09-27-2006, 12:32 AM
Maybe we can get some sorely needed debate going around here.

Anyone who knows their stuff will tell you that a ’spot’ within a wrestling contest could be anything from a 450 splash to a simple sleeper hold. Yet the term ’spot monkey’ seems to refer directly to the high flying, risk taking, all seeing and all dancing turnbuckle jockeys found commonly within more ‘innovative’ promotions like TNA and ROH, and its not a term of endearment.

The fact is that these jumping beans are highly skilled and expertly co-ordinated. The stunts they perform are undeniably entertaining and contain the ’wow’ factor that grab people’s attention. Yet with the existence of the term ’spot monkey’ comes the existence of the following question. Are the likes of Chris Sabin, Sonjay Dutt, Paul London and AJ Styles simply prostituting their bodies to a wrestling public that just 5 years ago where investing these same emotions into a different kind of ‘wow’ factor? Namely the blood sports of promotions such as ECW and even XPW.

Yes, its not the same thing. On the one hand you have hardcore wrestling (and yes I’m fully aware of the amount of actual, top notch, cream of the crop wrestling that existed within the old ECW), a violent style which provokes a reaction that could be transcribed as ’What the hell! Why would anyone do that to themselves?!’. Then you have the uber-athletic, high flying, super-spot wrestling that may catalyse the sentence ’What the hell! How do they do that?’. While one comes from admiration, the other comes from a sheer fascination of the willingness to mutilate one’s body in the name of ’entertainment’. One form is a showcase of physical ability, the other can easily be construed as a freak show. Or are they really that different?

If there’s one thing you can guarantee, its that we all love a freak show. If you see a guy with three ears or more importantly a women with four tits, then we’re all going to take a look. Not because we care, not because we feel sorry for them, but because its weird! This is the exact same reason that we watched New Jack staple opponent‘s skulls. Its why we watched little Spike Dudley bleed his gangly guts dry, and why we couldn’t take our eyes off The Sandman pile drive a woman through a table, its fucking weird!

The astonishing thing is that the quite brilliant antics of the exciting new X-Division style workers can very easily attract the same kind of voyeuristic interest as blade thirsty, stapler wielding hardcore maniacs. X-Division style action, although at times utterly mesmerising, is at its core definition strange and therefore weird. Whether it be advancement of human endeavour, or the fetish for self-mutilation, we as a viewing audience can be guilty of having those wide eyed moments which make for nothing more than interesting ‘headline’ chat among fellow wrestling friends.

Mr A: ‘Did you see that 8 man super-plex?’

Mr B: ‘Yeah man! Fuck me that was amazing? Hey who won that match by the way?’

Mr A: ‘Erm, I don’t know.’

So what does it matter? Who gives a shit if I’ve happened to notice the similarities between hardcore and high flying? Well we all should because its very easy to turn a wrestling product into a video library for ‘World‘s craziest Sport’s Stunts‘. The biggest criticism of wrestling styles like hardcore and high risk is that there is often no long term emotional involvement from the viewer. While its fun to see the high spots it doesn’t mean we care about the contest, the characters and the product as a whole. It’s the same reason why a crowd of twenty thousand can’t take their eyes off a Bret Hart sharpshooter but that same crowd may only exhale a mild ‘yeahhhh’ at a Paul London drop-sault.

Its this kind of criticism that spawns the label ’Spot Monkey’. Basically to attempt breath taking stunts simply for the sakes of doing a breath taking stunt. It’s the same principal as being smashed over the head by tube lights in order to slightly improve the day of a few hundred blood junkies. It begs the question; is it worth it?

Wrestling is about the audience making an emotional connection with what’s taking place inside the ring. We have to care about why each competitor is putting their body through physical torture. While a big stunt is an adrenaline rush, it always leads the after thought of why? Why did they attempt such a ridiculously dangerous manoeuvre if the guy was already out? If wrestling was about cool moves and the who can use the ropes in the most unique way, then Sonjay Dutt would be WWE Champion. The fact is that Sonjay Dutt is not WWE Champion, he is a talented athlete who is struggling to make an impression in TNA’s X-Division.

The very thing that the likes of the X-Division represent, promotes and champions is ultimately its biggest downfall. The frustrating thing is that this style of pro-wrestling can still be the future of the business. It needs intelligent wrestlers to be able work a match and tell a story, but at the same time use their astonishing athletic ability to really wow the crowd, but most importantly of all, they have to make them care.

The positive report is that its already happening. Guys like Chris Daniels and all the X-Division wrestlers (whether in TNA or elsewhere) that I’ve mentioned in this piece have at one time or another participated in matches that have ticked all the boxes. Whether its necessarily the future of the wrestling is still up for debate. The fact that it can be an effective way to entertain and involve a live wrestling crowd, and a massive television audience, is enough for now.

The term ’Spot Monkey’ while incorrect in terms of an actual definition (remember a spot fest could be three sleeper holds and seven arm bars) is still relevant in terms of what it actually refers to. This is a term that highlights an extreme method for attracting a wrestling fan, but the inability to convince that same fan to watch the entire show, not just the stunts. This is why the WWE is the biggest wrestling company in the world. It gives the audience the opportunity to invest their emotions in its performers. The WWE style provides a structure in the form of storylines in order for fans to achieve involvement, and subsequently care about the actual wrestling. While the company is sometimes misguided by money and its own ’freaks’ (The Great Khali) it is fundamentally the reason why ’Sports Entertainment’ and not ’Wrestling’ is the dominant force of the squared (or hexagon) circle.

So when you get frustrated with a shitty TNA storyline and you believe they should give the X-Division guys an extra ten minutes, just take a moment and ask the question why? High spots and insane stunts will grab the attention of anyone, wrestling angles and the ability to work a proper match will keep hold of that attention, and perhaps twist it into a long term wrestling fan. Spotfest matches will be nothing but a quick fix to a long term problem, and more than likely they will be detrimental to the product.

What’s that? You got a problem? Well don’t hide behind your monitor. Post a reply and lets get down to it! Spot-fest, are they really worth it?

Indifferent Clox
09-27-2006, 12:37 AM
I think Spots are a part of wrestling, it's just a good seasoning to a match, it shouldn't be the whole thing nor should it be non existent.

Destor
09-27-2006, 12:39 AM
Clearly, but we are talking about spot-fests here. Not spots in general.

What Would Kevin Do?
09-27-2006, 12:39 AM
It "depends."

There are good spotfests and bad spotfests. ROH can have matches with a lot of spots in them, but not be a spotfest. The problem that I have with spotfests is when they blatantly ignore moves and don't sell. I don't care if Jack Evans hits a double jump 630 to the outside, or something crazy like that... My problem is when he hits it seconds after getting dropped on the back of his head and he pretends like nothing happened.

However, spotfests can be amazingly well done as well... Anyone who watches Dragongate can tell you that. The 6 man matches with Blood Generation and DO Fixer can easily be considered spotfests, but they are brillantly done (including the one at the ROH show earlier this year which Metzer gave 5 stars.) Likewise, the Generation Next Vs Blood Generation match had a ton of "spots" but they match was awesome.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that spots are done to add something to the match, and that they fit the pace of the match, and the style of the match. Having a spot just for the sake of having a spot, and high spot after high spot after high spot for 15 minutes is just bleh.

Because that's what we mean by spotfests afterall, a succession of high spots.

Destor
09-27-2006, 12:44 AM
It "depends."

There are good spotfests and bad spotfests. ROH can have matches with a lot of spots in them, but not be a spotfest. The problem that I have with spotfests is when they blatantly ignore moves and don't sell. I don't care if Jack Evans hits a double jump 630 to the outside, or something crazy like that... My problem is when he hits it seconds after getting dropped on the back of his head and he pretends like nothing happened.

However, spotfests can be amazingly well done as well... Anyone who watches Dragongate can tell you that. The 6 man matches with Blood Generation and DO Fixer can easily be considered spotfests, but they are brillantly done (including the one at the ROH show earlier this year which Metzer gave 5 stars.) Likewise, the Generation Next Vs Blood Generation match had a ton of "spots" but they match was awesome.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that spots are done to add something to the match, and that they fit the pace of the match, and the style of the match. Having a spot just for the sake of having a spot, and high spot after high spot after high spot for 15 minutes is just bleh.

Because that's what we mean by spotfests afterall, a succession of high spots.I agree completely with you. It's all about context (which I blieve I went into, I get going on rants and loose track of what I want to say) if you sue psychology in you spot-heavy match it isn't a spot-fest by my standered. You have a reason for your actions, its not a gimmick. When you comprise a match with nothing but spots... then you enter the danger zone.


Also, I believe Meltzer to be a spot-junkie.

What Would Kevin Do?
09-27-2006, 01:57 AM
See, Indy tag team matches seem to be the biggest culprit I think, because they go so far out of their way to do unique/innovative moves, that sometimes it just breaks down into spotfests. It's fine line in indy tag team wrestling between being really innovative and flooding your matches with uneeded spots.

Mr. Nerfect
09-27-2006, 06:15 AM
I love spot-fests, mainly because they aren't boring. Everyone agrees spots add something to a match, but I think some matches can use them a lot more than others. Longer matches don't need as many spots as shorter matches. Sure, making things too condensed doesn't work, but having a guy take a finishing move in a short match isn't as effective as him being beaten because of something crazy early on.

The cruiserweights are the main reason to watch WCW during its dying days, and the main reason to watch know. Most of the guys who claim to "tell stories in the ring" (like Batista) can't wrestle half as well as the "spot-monkeys". Say what you want, but I believe Chris Sabin to be a much better, and a much more exciting wrestler than Batista. And if they can steal the show with their craziness, let them!

It upsets me that Paul London has not been allowed to fly in the WWE. The Hardy Boyz have actually made money for the WWE by being spot guys, and London can do the same. The man can wrestle well, but no one is going to care if he doesn't do something to seperate himself from the big men who can wrestle. I can watch London's matches over and over and over again, simply because they aren't boring. By taking slightly sicker bumps, he interests and involves me in his match a lot more than most of the roster.

I guess what I am saying is that spot-fests are good. Give me London's Calling over Batista's Bomb anyday. I'll take TLC over Hell in a Cell, and I'd much rather see Gregory Helms bust out The Vertebreaker than the Nightmare on Helms Street. Sure, sometimes guys go overboard with the ADD in their matches. A lot of the guys labelled as being "spot-monkeys" are actually just plain better wrestlers, and plain better entertainers, than a lot of the bigger guys.

Mr. Nerfect
09-27-2006, 06:16 AM
But yeah, WWKD hit the nail on the head. I haven't see too many matches where some psychology isn't attempted, though. Guys should use spots to enhance their matches, not as the matches.

Stickman
09-27-2006, 12:57 PM
I don't mind spot fests every now and then, but it seems like some promotions only do those kinds of matches. A promotion needs to have variety. I do think some of the guys in TNA are prostituting their body when they dont' need to. I will never watch an AJ Styles match because it's rediculous. Spot monkeys like him need to be in the acrobats not wrestling. RVD, Sabu, and even HBK know how to have a spot fest and make it seem real. Like stated, there's nothing worse than a big move, then 2 seconds later the guy is up like it didn't hurt.

Y2Jeremy
09-27-2006, 03:32 PM
A spot fest should be considered a completely different game. No one knocked hardcore division guys when they took 10 shots from a trash can, and HHH beat someone with one "sledgehammer shot". A spotfest is a fun match, and is not meant to "tell a story", only to entertain, which some boring match having hypocrits claim they do. I think that A.J. Styles said it best. "I don't see how someone(Batista) that can't take a bump without tearing his tricep, can tell me that I don't know how to wrestle."

Destor
09-27-2006, 05:46 PM
I love spot-fests, mainly because they aren't boring. Everyone agrees spots add something to a match, but I think some matches can use them a lot more than others. Longer matches don't need as many spots as shorter matches. Sure, making things too condensed doesn't work, but having a guy take a finishing move in a short match isn't as effective as him being beaten because of something crazy early on.
Look at TNA's ratings, they have slowly declined over a period of time. Now you COULD credit Jarrett for this. I don't. If Jarrett is the reason they left that would be saying that they were there for him in the first place, and clearly that is not the case. Every mark I've talked to from here to Louisiana has given the same reason as to why the liked TNA. It's cool. Not "so an so is awesome." Or anything of the like, Just that they they love the spotfest style. Well here's the problem with spotfest wrestling: Once the new car smell wears off, people loose all interest. All most everyone I knew that watched TNA, doesn't anymore because they claim it's boring. If they X division brought them there, it seems to have gotten rid of them as well.

The cruiserweights are the main reason to watch WCW during its dying days, and the main reason to watch know.
They sure didn't save the company did they?
Most of the guys who claim to "tell stories in the ring" (like Batista) can't wrestle half as well as the "spot-monkeys". Say what you want, but I believe Chris Sabin to be a much better, and a much more exciting wrestler than Batista. And if they can steal the show with their craziness, let them!What about your Bret Harts? Your Jake the Snakes? Stone Cold Steve Austins? Sure you've got guys claiming that telling stories is better when they themselves cant do it, but that doesn't stop them from being right.

It upsets me that Paul London has not been allowed to fly in the WWE. The Hardy Boyz have actually made money for the WWE by being spot guys, and London can do the same. The man can wrestle well, but no one is going to care if he doesn't do something to seperate himself from the big men who can wrestle. I can watch London's matches over and over and over again, simply because they aren't boring. By taking slightly sicker bumps, he interests and involves me in his match a lot more than most of the roster.The Hardy Boyz are good example. Look at their longevity, they ran there course VERY quickly, and a lot of its because of constantly wrestling their spotfest style, it left them with nothing left to do. Had they held off and only put on those spotfest in EXTREMELY special occasions they might still be around.

I guess what I am saying is that spot-fests are good. Give me London's Calling over Batista's Bomb anyday. I'll take TLC over Hell in a Cell, and I'd much rather see Gregory Helms bust out The Vertebreaker than the Nightmare on Helms Street. Sure, sometimes guys go overboard with the ADD in their matches. A lot of the guys labelled as being "spot-monkeys" are actually just plain better wrestlers, and plain better entertainers, than a lot of the bigger guys.If Batista is your example, I agree with you. But he could go down as one of wrestlings worse story tellers. So I dunno.

ron the dial
09-27-2006, 06:17 PM
I appreciate spotfests as a mark for professional wrestling, with no regard for the wrestler's well-being. As long as I'm entertained, I don't give a shit who gets hurt.

But then I realize that when everyone's too injured to continue wrestling anymore, I will no longer be entertained.

But, I still like seeing people do crazy aerial maneuvers. So what to do? Use the moves sparingly and only when necessary. Have it mean something when a huge spot takes place. Overkill is never a good thing.

Destor
09-27-2006, 06:24 PM
I appreciate spotfests as a mark for professional wrestling, with no regard for the wrestler's well-being. As long as I'm entertained, I don't give a shit who gets hurt.

But then I realize that when everyone's too injured to continue wrestling anymore, I will no longer be entertained.

But, I still like seeing people do crazy aerial maneuvers. So what to do? Use the moves sparingly and only when necessary. Have it mean something when a huge spot takes place. Overkill is never a good thing.:y: But agaon, my argument is more about buyrates and ratings. Basical Spotfest do not = big money draws.

ron the dial
09-27-2006, 06:27 PM
So I didn't address the issue. I was interrupted by the cops and lost my train of thought.

I will concede that spotfests are not big money draws right now. But how much mainstream exposure have spotfests really had? How many spotfests have the casual fans seen? Sure, you have TLC matches, Hell in a Cell, and the like, but that's a different style of spots than what TNA offers. Give it time and I think that spotfests will be able to make money.

Destor
09-27-2006, 06:33 PM
WCW's crusiier weight divsion was spotfest to a large degree, granted TNA is V.2 but the casual fan has seen this stlye before.

ron the dial
09-27-2006, 06:34 PM
And how long ago was it? Didn't I hear something about seven years being the "generally accepted" amount of time for wrestling to be able to recycle itself? I'd say we're about due. Even if it is coming from WCW V.2.

Destor
09-27-2006, 06:36 PM
If it recycles itself, how will spotfest be anymore successful then they were the first time?

ron the dial
09-27-2006, 06:39 PM
God dammit. I hate logic.

Destor
09-27-2006, 06:41 PM
You and the WWE both.

Destor
09-27-2006, 06:43 PM
What? Kurt Angle went to TNA? Is that the one where they do insane shit like 6 sided rings and shit?
RoXer is helping my argument. I bet he would have a hard time naming who did this "insane shit."

What Would Kevin Do?
09-27-2006, 08:15 PM
Just to throw something out there in regards to the whole Batista/AJ part. AJ Styles can be entertaining. He can do all the flips and dives he wants, and do all the highspots he wants. At the end of the day, pound for pound, as of right now, people like HHH, HBK, Carlito, Flair, Punk, Joe,etc,are all better wrestlers.

People love dives, they love high impact, etc, but actual WRESTLING matches need the basics as well. You need low impact moves, you need holds, you essentially need to "build up" to the spots that make the match memorable.

Because honestly, what's more impressive, AJ styles busting out his 15th big dive in a match, or someone like Samoa Joe, while selling the match itself, busts out a suicide dive? Much like high spots help the match, the match helps high spots. It's all about the build up.

McLegend
09-27-2006, 09:41 PM
Carlito has done nothing to prove he is a better wrestler then AJ.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves now.

Hanso Amore
09-27-2006, 09:57 PM
Just to throw something out there in regards to the whole Batista/AJ part. AJ Styles can be entertaining. He can do all the flips and dives he wants, and do all the highspots he wants. At the end of the day, pound for pound, as of right now, people like HHH, HBK, Carlito, Flair, Punk, Joe,etc,are all better wrestlers.

People love dives, they love high impact, etc, but actual WRESTLING matches need the basics as well. You need low impact moves, you need holds, you essentially need to "build up" to the spots that make the match memorable.

Because honestly, what's more impressive, AJ styles busting out his 15th big dive in a match, or someone like Samoa Joe, while selling the match itself, busts out a suicide dive? Much like high spots help the match, the match helps high spots. It's all about the build up.


While I agree with your post, Carlito and punk have been just a chain of moves every match in the WWE.

Punk....Taranula thing, Springboard clothesline, Knee Lift, bulldog out of the corner, Combo, Sambo, Vice. Carlito is the same with his shitty backflips and blackout into the backcracker. At least AJ doesnt follow an equation, although he just bust random crap out.

Kane Knight
09-27-2006, 10:15 PM
While I agree with your post, Carlito and punk have been just a chain of moves every match in the WWE.

Punk....Taranula thing, Springboard clothesline, Knee Lift, bulldog out of the corner, Combo, Sambo, Vice. Carlito is the same with his shitty backflips and blackout into the backcracker. At least AJ doesnt follow an equation, although he just bust random crap out.

Busting out random crap isn't always a good thing in a predictable, fake sport. I'm not saying every match should be identical, but Styles is still "randomly" busting out the same few moves.

What Would Kevin Do?
09-28-2006, 12:08 AM
Watch Punk stuff from ROH. He's better than AJ.

The reason I bring up Carlito, is because outside of Shelton, who hasn't done much recently, Carlito seems to be WWE's big "high spot" wrestler right now. He's been busting out double jump corkscrew sentons and shit. Essentially what point I was making was that Carlito can hit high spots, but he can work them into a regular style match and isn't considered a spot monkey. While both can take to the air, Carlito has been more impressive, IMO, in regular aspects of matches.