as i was saying in another thread "Superman Returns" sucked

[KillerWolf]

...and basically, so does the Superman character.

i rented the movie, because it got pretty good reviews, and i tapped out after forty fucking minutes. i honestly could not take any more of that type of stupidity. as soon as the movie started, right away i was bombarded with cheesy CGI that took me right out of the film. not to mention stupid Superman logic (like being unrecognizable by donning a pair of glasses). watching all of those crystals grow throughout the first forty minutes of the movie (before i turned it off) made the movie feel like an 80s throw-back. and Kevin Spacey's little band of criminals reminded me of the campiness of the first Batman movie.

it appears that i do not like brian singer movies in general. i did like the first X-Men movie (i'm not sure if he directed it) but i hated the second, which i know he directed. the problem with his movies is that CGI and special effects are always in the forefront. rather than using special effects when necessary to help tell the story - the special effects are the story.

anyway, back to the movie, i tapped out after skipping one or two chapters - next thing i see, Superman is flying around the globe, saving the world by preventing one disaster at a time. this took me right out of the film. what's he gonna do next, defeat the insurgency in Iraq real quick? is he going to go ahead and end all crime and human suffering? come on!

i for one, even as a kid found Superman to be too corny a super hero. he really is a piece of WWII era propaganda, and in this day and age an overly simplistic, the world is black and white, good vs. bad, hooray for USA kind of superhero. an American hero who happens to be an alien, btw. what i'm saying is that he has practically every atribute (or superpower) that a super hero could have. and no human flaws.

...and don't be a moron and say "krytonite is his flaw." kryptonite is his weakness, it's not a flaw. if he was an alcoholic or had a mental illness, that would be a flaw.

[Avenger]

Okay.

[Avenger]

mental illnesses are now a flaw, apparently.

You fucking tool.

[Boondock Saint]

and no human flaws.



Because he's not human...

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I didn't even read what you wrote, but I agree 100%. That movie was god awful and had one good scene in the entire movie.

[Disturbed316]

You do realise the glasses thing has been in there forever, and not just something they added?

[D Mac]

He does drink beer in the movie, and apparently is a peeping tom!

[Funky Fly]

The glasses thing was apparently because he had some sort of subtle hypnosis power, but they retconned it out of the comics.

Also, according to my brother (and thus the accuracy of this can be disputed), Superman needs to have mental blocks put in his mind to keep him from basically taking over the world.

[Stickman]

I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. It's Superman for christ sake, of course it's fake.

[ct2k]

I thoroughly enjoyed it tbh, it dragged a little overall but still, a good movie. It can't compete with Batman Begins as far as recent 'big' comic book movies go, but that was always gonna be nie on impossible:D

[KillerWolf]

mental illnesses are now a flaw, apparently.

You fucking tool.

um...okay.

Jackoff, i'm attacking a film because, in my opinion, it did not live up to it's critical review, which billed it as more than a brainless summer blockbuster.

then like some pussy-never-hadder type person you go attack me over a mere matter of semantics and resort to name calling - and over what? because you disagree with my opinion on Superman?

i'm willing to discuss my opinion, and even change my mind if you enlighten me. but what was the point of clinging to semantics like a geek, and calling me a tool? are you trying to tell me that you enjoyed the movie. are you trying to say that you enjoy shitty movies in general. are you saying that you are fond of one-demensional characters in film and literature? were you offended by my opinion? is that it? i dont know.

[KillerWolf]

You do realise the glasses thing has been in there forever, and not just something they added?

of course i realize that. my point is that it is something they should have taken out of the film because it's so fucking stupid.

[KillerWolf]

Also, according to my brother (and thus the accuracy of this can be disputed), Superman needs to have mental blocks put in his mind to keep him from basically taking over the world.

if that were true (and it made it's way into the movie) it would make for a more interesting character. that's exactly the kind of mental or personallity disorder the character needs.

[Lock Jaw]

Also, according to my brother (and thus the accuracy of this can be disputed), Superman needs to have mental blocks put in his mind to keep him from basically taking over the world.

False.

Anyways, I liked the movie. Could have been better if they modernized it a bit and didn't just try and recapture the feel of the Donner movies. Still, I enjoyed it a lot. Not as much as Batman Begins, but it was still entertaining.

In the recent comic books there was a storyline where Superman came back after a year of being powerless. The writer said he didn't watch Superman Returns, but the plot turned out strangely similar. Lex Luthor uses a Kryptonian crystal to do evil stuff. Only in the comics instead of using it for a real estate scam, he used it to build a mega-death weapon and tried to destroy Metropolis. Ended with a big climactic showdown and was absolutley amazing. Would have made a great movie.

Maybe I am biased because Superman is my favourite character of all.

His flaw is exactly that he HAS so much power and that people EXPECT and think him to have no flaws. I won't lie and say that a lot of writers are able to capture this very well. It takes a very good writer to capture the intricacies that are Superman. The comics after Infinite Crisis have been able to do this excellently in my opinion. The three issue "sequel" to the above arc is one of the greatest Superman stories I have ever read.

[KillerWolf]

I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. It's Superman for christ sake, of course it's fake.

sorry, dude. i dont really know what you mean. of course it's fake. my problem is not with the mythology of the character. my problem is with the depth of the character and the quality of the story told in the movie.

[Destor]

Brian Singer did the original X-Men movie.

[Destor]

Also I have fond memories of this movie, mostly because I was at the drive-in...I think you know what I mean.

[Champion of Europa]

If you don't like Superman, your review of a Superman movie does no good to me.

I enjoyed it.

[KillerWolf]

yeah, well, i tried. the critics' review of the movie sort of betrayed me, because it was billed as a rather good comic hero based movie. so i went into it expecting there to be more of a story there.

[Ninti the Mad]

I liked it.

Thats all that matters to me.

At least you vented, eh?

[Stickman]

Throughout the course of superman history he's always been unbelievable and has always had the flaws that occured in this movie. That's what I'm saying.

[Fox]

Why they never went with Superman vs. Doomsday is beyond me. That would have made a great movie.

[Funky Fly]

But unless they read the comics, would anyone really know who doomsday is?

It's like with X-Men and the Shi'ar. Sure, any comic reader will know the connection, since it's such a big part of the X-Men story, but Joe average is gonna be like "humanoid bird people from space, yeah uh... Juggernaut's a beast, dude!"

[D Mac]

For the sequel. Bizarro. That is all.

[Nowhere Man]

Why they never went with Superman vs. Doomsday is beyond me. That would have made a great movie.

Because Doomsday is a one-dimensional Hulk ripoff who jumped into the DCU so abruptly that he didn't even have a proper origin story until years after his debut, and continues to exist as a character from the sheer shock factor of killing Superman?

As for the whole "no one recognizes Clark because of his glasses LOL" thing, there's a pretty good explanation for it in the story Birthright: basically, no one recognizes Clark as Superman because they're not looking for the connection. Superman's got such a big presence and seems to be everywhere at once, so to the average Joe, there's no reason to suspect he's not just Superman 24/7. Clark's a nobody who just kinda happens to look like him. For people familiar with the comic book lore, the secret identity is something that comes as a given, but for the fictional people in the story, what would be the motivation to not be a famous beloved superhero at all times? And what's more, if Superman really was disguising himself as a regular human being, why would he choose to be some poor sap working for a newspaper?

Think of it this way: say you've got a friend that looks an awful lot like Tom Hanks. He doesn't really talk like him, or dress like him, or act like him, but he just kinda resembles him. Granted, you never see the two of them at the same time, but really, when are you ever going to meet Tom Hanks up close? Tom Hanks is making millions of dollars either plugging his new movie or whatever, while your friend is just some schmoe who works a 9-to-5 like everyone else. So even if you recognize the odd resemblence, you probably wouldn't just exclaim "A-HA! You're actually Tom Hanks in disguise!"

[Funky Fly]

rofl Tom Hanks

[Nowhere Man]

Thought I'd go through the rest of this, since I'm a big S-fan and have had this sort of argument a million times before.


anyway, back to the movie, i tapped out after skipping one or two chapters - next thing i see, Superman is flying around the globe, saving the world by preventing one disaster at a time. this took me right out of the film.

That's kind of the whole point of Superman. It's not like Marvel comics, where it's just one continuous "vs." scenario. Superman's one of the few heroes in all of comics who focuses on saving people before he worries about beating up villains. Batman doesn't do that. Spider-Man doesn't do that. Guys like Punisher and Hulk sure as shit don't do that. The whole point of the character is the 'secular Messiah,' a man who comes down from On High and lives among the human race, using miraculous powers to do acts of mercy that no one else can. Call it corny if you like, but that's one of the biggest things that makes Superman unique among all the other cape-and-tights folk.

what's he gonna do next, defeat the insurgency in Iraq real quick? is he going to go ahead and end all crime and human suffering? come on!

He probably could do that if he really wanted to. He's got enough power that he could remove all of the terrorists, criminals, corrupt politicians, drug lords, and all of society's other undesirables. He could make the world a utopia with no war, no crime, no corruption.....and no freedom.

One of the biggest conflicts Superman has is how far he can go to help people without crossing the line and taking away their free will. On the one hand, he can't turn a blind eye to suffering when he has the power to stop it. On the other hand, in order to truly make the world better, humanity has to want it, and simply solving all of mankind's problems for them robs them of their ability to make their own decisions.

For an idea of how Superman would be if he didn't understand the need for individual freedoms, read Red Son. It's quite good.

i for one, even as a kid found Superman to be too corny a super hero. he really is a piece of WWII era propaganda, and in this day and age an overly simplistic, the world is black and white, good vs. bad, hooray for USA kind of superhero. an American hero who happens to be an alien, btw. what i'm saying is that he has practically every atribute (or superpower) that a super hero could have. and no human flaws.

1) Superman was created in 1932, nearly a full decade before the US entered WWII, and wasn't published until 1938, still a year before the war began. For "WWII-era propaganda," look no further than Captain America or the Star-Spangled Kid. Yes, he was turned into a propaganda figure during the War itself, but so were Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse, and virtually every other pop culture figure of the day.

2) The whole argument over "Truth, Justice, And the American Way" has been going on for a while now. On the one hand, his coming to America as an foreigner (in the ultimate sense, since he's not even from this planet) and making his way to the very top is the very essence of the American dream. Not to mention his being raised by the Kents has steeped him in what would be considered traditional American values. However, he's acted out against the US government and military on several occasions, going so far as to lead a raid on the White House itself when Lex Luthor was elected President (which in and of itself was just a thinly-veiled swipe at the Bush administration) So while he's not the flag-waving unquestioning uber-Patriot that he was during the war-time Golden Age, Superman instead stands for the way America should be, not necessarily the way it is.

3) His whole "overly simplistic" view of the world is exactly one of those glaring human flaws that you say he doesn't have. Countless people have taken advantage of this over the years, stepping behind moral boundaries that Superman won't cross or putting him in situations where he can't take action without violating his own principles. That's how Lex Luthor manages to walk away scott-free from most of his plans, how Batman is able to manipulate him so easily, etc. There are ways to defeat Superman without ever bothering with Kryptonite. For someone who has "no human flaws," that's a pretty big one.

...and don't be a moron and say "krytonite is his flaw." kryptonite is his weakness, it's not a flaw. if he was an alcoholic or had a mental illness, that would be a flaw.

Because we all know how popular Iron Man is, now that he's a raving drunk. Besides, they've already tried making Superman fit in with all the other grim-and-gritty antiheroes during the late 80s and 90s. They watered down all of his powers, made him constantly whine and mope about what to do, and then gave him a stupid-looking mullet. The comics themselves were virtually unreadable and very nearly caused the series to go under. Ironically though, the resulting backlash ended up with stories like Kingdom Come and Alan Moore's run on the indie-comic Supreme, which made the old "Boy Scout" persona more popular than ever.

Not every hero needs to be about angst and gloom and how terrible their life is; save that shit for Batman.

[Boondock Saint]

For an idea of how Superman would be if he didn't understand the need for individual freedoms, read Red Son. It's quite good.


:y:

[KillerWolf]

Thought I'd go through the rest of this, since I'm a big S-fan and have had this sort of argument a million times before.



That's kind of the whole point of Superman. It's not like Marvel comics, where it's just one continuous "vs." scenario. Superman's one of the few heroes in all of comics who focuses on saving people before he worries about beating up villains. Batman doesn't do that. Spider-Man doesn't do that. Guys like Punisher and Hulk sure as shit don't do that. The whole point of the character is the 'secular Messiah,' a man who comes down from On High and lives among the human race, using miraculous powers to do acts of mercy that no one else can. Call it corny if you like, but that's one of the biggest things that makes Superman unique among all the other cape-and-tights folk.



He probably could do that if he really wanted to. He's got enough power that he could remove all of the terrorists, criminals, corrupt politicians, drug lords, and all of society's other undesirables. He could make the world a utopia with no war, no crime, no corruption.....and no freedom.

One of the biggest conflicts Superman has is how far he can go to help people without crossing the line and taking away their free will. On the one hand, he can't turn a blind eye to suffering when he has the power to stop it. On the other hand, in order to truly make the world better, humanity has to want it, and simply solving all of mankind's problems for them robs them of their ability to make their own decisions.

For an idea of how Superman would be if he didn't understand the need for individual freedoms, read Red Son. It's quite good.



1) Superman was created in 1932, nearly a full decade before the US entered WWII, and wasn't published until 1938, still a year before the war began. For "WWII-era propaganda," look no further than Captain America or the Star-Spangled Kid. Yes, he was turned into a propaganda figure during the War itself, but so were Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse, and virtually every other pop culture figure of the day.

2) The whole argument over "Truth, Justice, And the American Way" has been going on for a while now. On the one hand, his coming to America as an foreigner (in the ultimate sense, since he's not even from this planet) and making his way to the very top is the very essence of the American dream. Not to mention his being raised by the Kents has steeped him in what would be considered traditional American values. However, he's acted out against the US government and military on several occasions, going so far as to lead a raid on the White House itself when Lex Luthor was elected President (which in and of itself was just a thinly-veiled swipe at the Bush administration) So while he's not the flag-waving unquestioning uber-Patriot that he was during the war-time Golden Age, Superman instead stands for the way America should be, not necessarily the way it is.

3) His whole "overly simplistic" view of the world is exactly one of those glaring human flaws that you say he doesn't have. Countless people have taken advantage of this over the years, stepping behind moral boundaries that Superman won't cross or putting him in situations where he can't take action without violating his own principles. That's how Lex Luthor manages to walk away scott-free from most of his plans, how Batman is able to manipulate him so easily, etc. There are ways to defeat Superman without ever bothering with Kryptonite. For someone who has "no human flaws," that's a pretty big one.



Because we all know how popular Iron Man is, now that he's a raving drunk. Besides, they've already tried making Superman fit in with all the other grim-and-gritty antiheroes during the late 80s and 90s. They watered down all of his powers, made him constantly whine and mope about what to do, and then gave him a stupid-looking mullet. The comics themselves were virtually unreadable and very nearly caused the series to go under. Ironically though, the resulting backlash ended up with stories like Kingdom Come and Alan Moore's run on the indie-comic Supreme, which made the old "Boy Scout" persona more popular than ever.

Not every hero needs to be about angst and gloom and how terrible their life is; save that shit for Batman.

you make some good points.

you must keep in mind, however, that i dont read comic books, so i am not really "in the know" about alot of the lore and past storylines. i'm mostly basing my opinion on what was, to me, a rather shitty movie experience. that, and the fact that based on what the average person is exposed to, Superman is and always been more or less a one-demensional character.

however, i'm not so out of touch with it so as not to realize that his most likely character flaw would be the fact that he has so much power. i don't believe that they tapped into that in the movie though. and if they did, the first 40 minutes of the movie were so stupid that i turned it off and missed it.

also, let me expound a little bit about why it bothered me seeing him going around the world saving it...

there is so much real turmoil going on in the world that i just wasn't in the mood to see Superman putting out a forest fire one minute, and then preventing a hold-up the next. the whole thing felt like it was meant to be a mantage of him saving the world, but without acknowledging that the world presently has bigger problems that we as a human race need to fix.

[Lock Jaw]

the whole thing felt like it was meant to be a mantage of him saving the world, but without acknowledging that the world presently has bigger problems that we as a human race need to fix.

Said it yourself, a world we as a human race need to fix. Not Superman. You are never going to see a movie in which Superman goes against armies and stops wars and crap like that. He can hear and see it all, but he has to hold himself back from getting involved.

[Rammsteinmad]

It couldn't be any worse than Man-Thing.

[Nowhere Man]

also, let me expound a little bit about why it bothered me seeing him going around the world saving it...

there is so much real turmoil going on in the world that i just wasn't in the mood to see Superman putting out a forest fire one minute, and then preventing a hold-up the next. the whole thing felt like it was meant to be a mantage of him saving the world, but without acknowledging that the world presently has bigger problems that we as a human race need to fix.

Well, in the Christopher Reeve movies, he was trained by Jor-El to be a "light to show the way," not hand mankind their future on a platter. He's meant to inspire human achievement, not undermine it. So while preventing disasters and thwarting supervillains is fine, going in and trying to change the fates of entire nations is going too far.

It sounds to me like you'd probably be into the more Bronze-Age styled stories, which deal very deeply with real-life problems and how superheroes would react to them. To that end, I'd recommend Must There Be a Superman?, by Elliot "S!" Maggin. It deals with a lot of the sort of things you're criticizing the SR movie about.

[Funky Fly]

however, i'm not so out of touch with it so as not to realize that his most likely character flaw would be the fact that he has so much power. i don't believe that they tapped into that in the movie though. and if they did, the first 40 minutes of the movie were so stupid that i turned it off and missed it.
Actually, the Justice League cartoon of all things acknowledged that to soe degree. Superman said that he basically lives in a cardboard world and that he has to be careful not to destroy anything on accident, 24/7. He then proceeds to let loose all over Darkseid.

[Fignuts]

That's kind of the whole point of Superman. It's not like Marvel comics, where it's just one continuous "vs." scenario. Superman's one of the few heroes in all of comics who focuses on saving people before he worries about beating up villains. Batman doesn't do that. Spider-Man doesn't do that.

Uh yeah they do.

[Nowhere Man]

Tell that to Captain Stacy.

[Fignuts]

Whoa. Low blow.

[Fignuts]

Also, that was a brilliant story element which in no way diminished spider-man's desire to help people over fighting.

[YOUR Hero]

Not a very memorable movie. Watched it for the first time the other night and I thought it was OK, but nothing 'WOW'

[Kane Knight]

of course i realize that. my point is that it is something they should have taken out of the film because it's so fucking stupid.

It's not all that stupid. Glasses do alter your form a little. Beyond the hypnosis thing, which is dumb, they've also explained Supes alters his posture and such. It's easy to make yourself look different by simply altering your clothes, and glasses will affect things. Of all the shit to nitpick, the thing that actually has some real-world significance is a pretty retarded place to start.

In terms of his flaws, I've never liked that the only thing that hurts Supes is Kryptonite, but what makes it interesting is that he attempts to conquer it. It's not brave to jump in front of a gun if you know the bullet will bounce off you, but if you jump into a situation, knowing full well you're out of your element, it's either bravery or stupidity. Superman doesn't have a lot of experience with that, which makes it interesting. In fact, it's one of the few times his paragon-nature is actually entertaining.

The movie was boring because it felt like there was an hour of extra content. As in, the movie was an hour longer than the story. I won't defend it. Superman finds a way. We know the ending, so there's no suspense in that. They need another way to make it interesting, and they didn't do that.

[Kane Knight]

Actually, the Justice League cartoon of all things acknowledged that to soe degree. Superman said that he basically lives in a cardboard world and that he has to be careful not to destroy anything on accident, 24/7. He then proceeds to let loose all over Darkseid.

Yeah, this is more or less touched upon in every incarnation of Superman I can name from the last 40 years or so. Even the movies did to small extents.

[Rammsteinmad]

Just finished watching it for the first time. I actually enjoyed it.

Wasn't anything groundbreaking and some of the effects were pretty poor, but overall I was satisfied when it was finished.

If they were to make a sequel I reckon Lobo would be awesome. Doomsday would be sick as fuck but would also reek of poor computer animation. Lobo is one of few characters who can match up to Superman in the strength department, and would be pretty cool to see on screen.

Anyone agree?

[Fox]

I just want to see a big ass fight where they tear apart the city.

[Nowhere Man]

I seriously doubt they'll be using one of Superman's 90s villains, since Singer seems to be more fond of the old-school Supes.

If it's anyone, it really oughta be Brainiac. He was every bit as big of a villain as Luthor or Zod (much more than Zod, in fact, since Zod was never really a recurring character in the comics), and had some pretty cool powers that'd make for a kickass fight.

[Kane Knight]

I just want to see Supes against someone who is nearly his rival. Doomsday is boring, but being so brutally strong is definitely a plus for a Superman movie.

[Savio]

So your saying my best friend is tom hanks?

[Fryza]

It couldn't be any worse than Man-Thing.

:mad:

Personally, I didn't like the movie. I found it too long and boring, and it seemed like everything that happened, his music started playing. I mean, he'd run out of staples, and his theme would play while he got new ones.

Never been a fan of Superman, always found the character boring and one-dimensional. It was a decent movie and all, just not my cup of tea.

[Funky Fly]

Yeah, this is more or less touched upon in every incarnation of Superman I can name from the last 40 years or so. Even the movies did to small extents.
Yeah, figured that was the case. Just thought I'd throw it out as a flaw of some sort. It does make him a danger to those around him, should he ever slip up and use too much strength.

[D Mac]

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6250/andysnap001he6.jpg

It would have been better if he was in it.

[Nowhere Man]

I just want to see Supes against someone who is nearly his rival. Doomsday is boring, but being so brutally strong is definitely a plus for a Superman movie.

There are plenty of Superman villains besides Doomsday that can go round-for-round with the big guy. It's just that they're rarely used outside of the comics or cartoons.

There's Bizarro, the Phantom Zone criminals, and Ultraman (who all fill out the "just like Superman only evil" role), there's Parasite, and Metallo (who can continuously get stronger while draining Superman), there's Livewire, Silver Banshee, Atomic Skull, Blackrock, and Kryptonite Man (who are your standard energy blaster folks-- take a wild guess at what Kryptonite Man does) and there's Mongul and Doomsday (who are your big meaty powerhouses to slug things out with)

And if you really wanna get screwy, there's always Mr. Mxyzptlk or Toyman.