View Full Version : The Future of Submissions?
Stickman
12-28-2006, 04:25 PM
I was thinking, with the exposure of MMA it's pretty obvious that all pro wrestling submissions are fake. For instance, the sleeper, pretty sure that'll put you to sleep in less than 3 second but in pro wrestling it can be on for 20 minutes with no lasting effect. Any armlock would really end a fight super quick but it's prowrestling so no, it doesn't.
What do you think will happen with submissions down the line. Will Vince, for instance, say if you get a submission on, make sure you tap really quickly to make it seem legit?
Or will they go the other way and make submissions useless?
Londoner
12-28-2006, 04:29 PM
Or will they go the other way and make submissions useless?
That's pretty much where they're now and where they will continue to be in future. Anytime i see a sleeper hold i know its time to turn over, cause i know what will happen next and it'll be like the sleeper hold never happened. If you're gonna use a submission in the match to bore us all, make it matter in the match later on ffs.
Well, in wrestling, submissions are more of a way to wear down your opponent unless it's a finisher like the Ankle Lock or Sharpshooter. When moves like those are put on, it's realistic enough that they fight through the pain, at least for a bit. The struggles add to this.
Sleepers, headlocks and leg locks are usually used for resting themselves up (hence "rest hold") and to set up the next set of moves, so I don't think that rest hold-type moves will ever change, as they are a staple in the match itself, both to the fans for wear down and to the workers for setups and rests.
Stickman
12-28-2006, 04:40 PM
I see what Xero is saying here, but for me, having learned about submissions and whatnot, you tap out in a second or two or something will break. So for me to watch wrestling submissions I get aggitated.
I think I'm FINALLY outgrowing this shit.
Honestly, I don't think they're SUPPOSED to be to the point of breaking anything (if we were talking a 'real' contest here). Commentators have noted more than a few times that if wrestler so-and-so wants, he could break so-and-so's arm/leg/whatever, but they don't. As I said, it's wear down, not actual submission.
Arnold HamNegger
12-28-2006, 04:43 PM
Sleepers, headlocks and leg locks are usually used for resting themselves up (hence "rest hold") and to set up the next set of moves...
Unless it's the dreaded........................................
ROTTEN TUNA TRIANGLE!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f146/ShotzCA/scp0_071.jpg
Unless it's the dreaded........................................
ROTTEN TUNA TRIANGLE!
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f146/ShotzCA/scp0_071.jpg
That's the opposite of REST hold.
:shifty:
Londoner
12-28-2006, 04:50 PM
Well, in wrestling, submissions are more of a way to wear down your opponent unless it's a finisher like the Ankle Lock or Sharpshooter. When moves like those are put on, it's realistic enough that they fight through the pain, at least for a bit. The struggles add to this.
Sleepers, headlocks and leg locks are usually used for resting themselves up (hence "rest hold") and to set up the next set of moves, so I don't think that rest hold-type moves will ever change, as they are a staple in the match itself, both to the fans for wear down and to the workers for setups and rests.
Ah yes, sleepers and headlocks may not be used to 'wear the wrestlers down' but they wear me down enough for me to turn over!
What do you think will happen with submissions down the line. Will Vince, for instance, say if you get a submission on, make sure you tap really quickly to make it seem legit?
Vince will absolutely NOT do this. Because he is fucking stupid and out of touch with the real world and what his target audience now expects.
Submissions have to change to either quicker tap outs or more scrambling during submissions as opposed to the current lay back and moan until you tap. There will have to be more rope breaks too.
Oh and I have said this for fucking ages but the top 10-15 guys in the company should all have submission finishes on top of pin finishes and they actually need to win with them at least in one in four matches to get new submission moves over to the people. Right now, 99% of wrestling matches are just either waiting for the finish or if it's a kick out, you get another kick out of the opponent finisher and then they'll try and trade finishers before using their own to win. They need more unpredictable finishes. Some of the best matches in history ended with small cradles or sunset flips and it didn't hurt the matches in the slightest.
Oh and I have said this for fucking ages but the top 10-15 guys in the company should all have submission finishes on top of pin finishes and they actually need to win with them at least in one in four matches to get new submission moves over to the people. Right now, 99% of wrestling matches are just either waiting for the finish or if it's a kick out, you get another kick out of the opponent finisher and then they'll try and trade finishers before using their own to win. They need more unpredictable finishes. Some of the best matches in history ended with small cradles or sunset flips and it didn't hurt the matches in the slightest.
I don't see how submission finishers would equal unpredictable finishes. If they did it one out of every four matches, every time they lock on the submission it'd be obvious that the match is over.
Of course, if they started finishing matches with, say, armbars and chokeholds the fans would become pissed from the weak finish because they've been trained (talking marks here and to an extent 'smarts') to like the big finishes over the past 20 years or so.
owenbrown
12-28-2006, 05:11 PM
The first thing that needs to be done in WWE about submissions is to stop putting over a shitty ass Full Nelson and a really shitty version of the STF as finishers.
You know a finisher I miss? Dean Malenko's Texas Cloverleaf. Submission moves like that.
James Steele
12-28-2006, 05:20 PM
Its really irrelevant nowadays. If the "target audience" is too fucking dumb to realize its "fake" and then bitch about unrealistic submissions they need to watch MMA. I don't know a single wrestling fan who watches pro wrestling for realism. It was designed to be unrealistic. Then they pray they can achieve your suspension of disbelief. I have started enjoying MMA, but it is blatantly obvious that its different from pro wrestling. I watch MMA to see 2 guys fight in a variety styles. I watch wrestling to see pro wrestling (which is the single most unrealistic "sport" in the world). I do think the sleeper hold needs to be retired, but that would kill Randy Orton's career.
I don't know a single wrestling fan who watches pro wrestling for realism. It was designed to be unrealistic. Then they pray they can achieve your suspension of disbelief.
That makes no sense. How can you suspend your disbelief when you know it's total unrealistic.
And if it's meant to be unrealistic, how come fucking every single major angle in pro wrestling history was based on realistic feuds?
That makes no sense. How can you suspend your disbelief when you know it's total unrealistic.
And if it's meant to be unrealistic, how come fucking every single major angle in pro wrestling history was based on realistic feuds?
That only started around 1994-1995 though, anything before then was fairly unrealistic.
Every major modern-day angle maybe, but not every major angle.
Innovator
12-28-2006, 05:56 PM
I like how their getting the Anaconda Vice over, no one has broken it or survived long in it yet.
Arnold HamNegger
12-28-2006, 06:05 PM
Right now, 99% of wrestling matches are just either waiting for the finish or if it's a kick out, you get another kick out of the opponent finisher and then they'll try and trade finishers before using their own to win. They need more unpredictable finishes.
I agree with this. Something I'd like to see is similar to what happened in the first Hughes vs. St. Pierre fight for example. IMO St. Pierre ws getting the better of Hughes and it looked like the first round was about to expire, when out of NOWHERE Hughes hit an armbar and St. Pierre tapped out immediately. To me that was badass!
I'd like to see someone in WWE that goes against all the traditional psychology of typical matches like this every once in a while and be a total badass. Angle was close for a while hitting ankle locks from different positions, but then they ruined the credibility by having people like ***cough*** Cena ***cough*** staying in the ankle lock an insane amount of time without tapping. Then WWE turns around and has supposed badasses tap out of the shittiest STF(U) in history IMMEDIATELY. :wtf:
But as Rob said, Vince will never do this because he's so out of touch with what his target audience expects. WWE picked up it's quality and adapted it's product based on what the competition was doing years ago during the Monday Night War days. I'd like to see them do it again. There may not be a WCW out there right now, but at this current rate things like MMA and UFC may just be the eventual end of WWE if it continues to insult the intelligence of it's target audience by continuing to have it's brands cartoon like in nature.
WCW and ECW were unpredictable at the hight of there existence, which is what drew viewers away from WWE. New time, new era...replace WCW/ECW with MMA/UFC and we could have history repeating itself....only this time Vince seems too stubborn to change his product accordingly. I want and miss unpredictability in wrestling and I get it with UFC/MMA. Most every friend I had back in college and whatnot that LOVED wrestling that doesn't watch it anymore has the same response when I talk to them. "WWE is too cartoonish and for kids now. I watch UFC."
It may not be directly competing with WWE as far as time slots go, but the more UFC I watch...the stupider I feel for sitting through 2 hours of crap WWE dishes out on Monday nights, so now I barely watch it anymore. IMO, there needs to be a different kind of "Attitude" era in WWE and it could possibly come based from an adaptation of the way it uses submission moves. Bring a sense of unpredictability back and a "big fight" atmosphere.
James Steele
12-28-2006, 06:07 PM
That makes no sense. How can you suspend your disbelief when you know it's total unrealistic.
The same way people get into a movie or television show.
And if it's meant to be unrealistic, how come fucking every single major angle in pro wrestling history was based on realistic feuds?
I wasn't talking about storylines. I was talking about the actual wrestling, but even Tom & Jerry cartoons were based on a realistic premise for their story.
That only started around 1994-1995 though, anything before then was fairly unrealistic.
Every major modern-day angle maybe, but not every major angle.
We are talking about 2006 and not before 1994 though so that is irrelevant.
The major modern day angles outdrew fucking everything pre 1994. There are like 2 shows in the WWE top 20 attended shows and the gates and PPV buys WM3 have been mullered since.
And for James Steele, the most popular shows and films in the modern day all have realistic stories. Even the horrors are more fucking believable than most wrestling matches. The most popular shows in the world today - CSI, Lost, Dancing with the Stars/Celebrity strictly come dancing, Desparate Housewives, Sopranos, Deal or No Deal, The Shield, etc, etc - aside from the island aspect of Lost, all are real life based or reality shows. Even Lost suspends your belief enough to have you believe the island aspect could really happen. Wrestling matches no longer do this. WWE storylines are fucking shit. I could name 20 shows right now off the top of my head with better writing. UFC, a shoot company, books old school feuds better than a fucking fake wrestling company can. They suspend belief FAR BETTER than WWE do.
Vince McMahon is in his 60's and his immediate staff are all over 40. Sorry but no way are these fuckers going to tell an audience from 18-25 what is cool. And in no way are they suspending belief enough to attract new viewers because kids barely watch wrestling now. At least with the over the top characters and gimmicks back in the day, wrestling was able to catch their eye. Who is gonna catch their eye now? Cena? Carlito? Kane? Give me a break.
Some people have suspended their belief for so long though that they become blind to what is going on around them.
Pepsi Man
12-28-2006, 06:56 PM
Not to be a dick...well...okay, to be a dick...wouldn't "single major angle in pro wrestling history" include before 1994? :o
James Steele
12-28-2006, 07:02 PM
We are talking about 2006 and not before 1994 though so that is irrelevant.
The major modern day angles outdrew fucking everything pre 1994. There are like 2 shows in the WWE top 20 attended shows and the gates and PPV buys WM3 have been mullered since.
And for James Steele, the most popular shows and films in the modern day all have realistic stories. Even the horrors are more fucking believable than most wrestling matches. The most popular shows in the world today - CSI, Lost, Dancing with the Stars/Celebrity strictly come dancing, Desparate Housewives, Sopranos, Deal or No Deal, The Shield, etc, etc - aside from the island aspect of Lost, all are real life based or reality shows. Even Lost suspends your belief enough to have you believe the island aspect could really happen. Wrestling matches no longer do this. WWE storylines are fucking shit. I could name 20 shows right now off the top of my head with better writing. UFC, a shoot company, books old school feuds better than a fucking fake wrestling company can. They suspend belief FAR BETTER than WWE do.
Vince McMahon is in his 60's and his immediate staff are all over 40. Sorry but no way are these fuckers going to tell an audience from 18-25 what is cool. And in no way are they suspending belief enough to attract new viewers because kids barely watch wrestling now. At least with the over the top characters and gimmicks back in the day, wrestling was able to catch their eye. Who is gonna catch their eye now? Cena? Carlito? Kane? Give me a break.
Some people have suspended their belief for so long though that they become blind to what is going on around them.
That is opinion, and its pointless to debate opinion.
Not to be a dick...well...okay, to be a dick...wouldn't "single major angle in pro wrestling history" include before 1994? :o
Okay then what angle/feud drew legit main event money without a realistic feud?
That is opinion, and its pointless to debate opinion.
If someone is of the opinion that currently WWE suspends belief better than Lost, The Shield or CSI then they should be instantly checked into a mental ward.
James Steele
12-28-2006, 07:16 PM
If someone is of the opinion that currently WWE suspends belief better than Lost, The Shield or CSI then they should be instantly checked into a mental ward.
Occasionally they do.
When in the last say 2 years?
James Steele
12-28-2006, 07:28 PM
CRYME TYME
James Steele
12-28-2006, 07:31 PM
Seriously, the Triple H/Cena fued, Edge/Cena, and Edge/Foley fued were amazing feuds this year. Right now, the RKO/DX fued gets me into RAW more than anything (That is amazing considering I can't stand Randy Orton).
CRYME TYME
Okay that was funny. I'm repping this.
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 01:21 AM
Wrestling isn't MMA though. It has it's own set of rules. MMA matches sometimes finish in seconds. Real fights don't last for half hour. People need to stop moaning that wrestling is less realistic compared to MMA. It's not an applicable argument. Even in the deepest, darkest days of kayfabe, wrestling was not "realistic"- now it's out in the open. Wrestling is scripted. Futhermore, the business has created it's own concepts and psychology that simply don't apply in real fights.
If you try to make wrestling more like MMA, why would you watch wrestling? You could just watch MMA. Who would choose a pre-determined wrestling match that looks like an MMA fight over watching an actual MMA fight? I know there is a lot of cross-over between the fans, but keep the two seperate.
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 01:23 AM
Case in point: do you really think that Kurt Angle vs Shawn Michaels (quite possibly the greatest non-gimmick WWE match of all time) at WrestleMania 21 would have been quite as dramatic and edge-of-your-seat stuff if Michaels had just tapped out right away the first time he was put in the ankle lock?
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 01:25 AM
Try any submission your have seen in the WWE with enough force to want to make someone tap right away, moves like the sharpshooter, crossface, and even the armlock. When enough pressure is applied they will eventually break something, so you know the instigator is not trying to hurt the person, which sort of ruins submissions in pro wrestling.
Destor
12-29-2006, 01:26 AM
Why single out submissions? Is a power bomb realistic? No. But people love to see them now don't they? This isn't really an issue.
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 01:30 AM
Submissions are known to hurt alot when enough force, and pressure is applied, most have tryed it IRL with friends or whatever, and know what it feels like, so knowing that the move hurts, and some wrestler is in it for like 30 seconds, or longer and still hasn't tapped you know he's selling. Powerbombs are a 6' drop normally, they look painful, any strike with noise looks/sounds painful, and if we did them to someone or vice versa we know they would hurt the same why real submissions would. But with the intensity and such that powerbombs or other strike moves are executed, you don't question them, because they LOOK like they hurt, most submissions don't.
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 01:33 AM
Just for those who find it impossible to suspend their disbelief (whilst watching freakin' WRESTLING!) the announcers always put over the sportsmanship of wrestling to cover the fact that these guys aren't leaving bouts with broken bones and smashed up faces. Things like the "open hand punch" and the "rope break" to end submissions. And what's more, they act with disgust and horror when somebody uses a submission hold to deliberately break somebody's bones (such as Kurt Angle when he was breaking everybody's ankles with the ankle lock). It helps put over the severity of an angle such as this, and also lets you know that wrestling submissions are not designed to put a wrestler out of action and somebody who attempts to do this is deplorable.
It may not make an awful lot of sense (why would you "go easy" on an opponent you are trying to beat?) but at least it is a (kayfabe) explanation for the fact that submissions do not often lead to breakages/tears etc.
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 01:38 AM
Thanks for stating that and clearing it up for those of us that were confused, but we all know that they aren't trying to kill each other in the ring, but what im saying the impact of a powerbomb looks like a powerbomb done to hurt, a crossface in real life would have you tapping in seconds, in the ring it seems to have no effect.
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 01:46 AM
Yes, because it adds drama and psychology to a match that way.
It does look like it hurts, it's just a question of how long the wrestler can hold on. Don't forget that a lot of drama comes out of the rope break rule, which you don't get in MMA. If a wrestler can reach the ropes, the move will be released. Speaking from a kayfabe point of view, in MMA, if a submission move is securely locked in you have little chance of breaking it and had better tap out ASAP to limit the damage. In wrestling, the wrestler DOES have an out... the rope break rule. And many a match has added a lot of excitement and suspension through use of that device. That's as good a reason as any as to why wrestlers don't tap out instantly to a submission. (Barring the fact that the submissions moves probably barely hurt at all, coz it's a work.)
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 01:56 AM
Im not disagreeing with you in the slighest, Im just merely stating the fact that submissions don't look/work like they should, the rope break is what sets MMA and WWE apart, and it makes real fighting, and fake fighting different, and like you said that most would tap out right away to limit the damage, while WWE lets it go on is what this discussion is about, real submissions hurt alot, for example if you are watching MMA and see someone like Chuck Lidel tap out from an armlock in like 5 seconds, and then switch to WWE and see someone like Ric Flair take it for like 20 seconds, your like WTF. But like you said thats what adds drama to the match, and the rope rule more so, example a Benoit match, when he locks in the crossface usually people tap, but alot can maneuver out or get to the rope fast, and usually when its locked in fully he wins. This adds alot of excitement to the match, but it takes 10 second or so before the opponent taps, in MMA that move would snap someones neck, so its unlikely it would last >5 seconds. Also I don't know why this discussion really happened, as submissions nowadays are pointless, they seem way underrated compared to years ago, when Ric Flair locked in the Figure 4 it was pretty much over, or the Rocks sharpshooter even, now they just seem to make a rest hold.
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 02:12 AM
Of course, yet ANOTHER reason why it makes sense for wrestling to do things this way is that it makes wrestlers look like superheroes if they can withstand this pain for so much longer than a MMA fighter can.
And I also recall announcers talking in the past about how wrestlers can withstand submissions so much better because they are so strong and muscular. And I suppose, as we do seem to be comparing it mainly to MMA here, wrestlers DO tend to be bigger and more muscular than MMA fighters on the whole. So there's another reason.
I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you per se. I just think it has never proven an issue in the past and I doubt it will in the future. Don't forget that an early WWE response to the growth in popularity of MMA was to introduce the "tap out" finish in 1997. Before then, submissions were called verbally. In the ten years since then, they haven't adapted submissions to work any faster than before and I doubt they will anytime soon.
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 02:22 AM
They introduced that in 1997? I thought it had been around forever, jeez thanks for letting me know something pretty big in wrestling history, I would rep you but... I already did for another post.
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 02:29 AM
Yeah they brought that in when they signed Ken Shamrock in 1997, and pushed it hard as the new way to submit. Um, except in one certain match in November 1997 when they conveniently forgot about the tap out method, and accepted the time-honored tradition of the "No I don't quit" verbal submission. But that's another story for another time.
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 02:31 AM
I actually started watching a little towards the end of 97 actually so I assumed it had been around awhile. and also wasn' that the Mankind loss or something?
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 02:35 AM
No I'm referring to the Montreal Screwjob.
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 02:39 AM
Oops my bad, I know there was a title win by the Rock where Mankind didn't submit, and Vince called for the bell, no memory of when it happened though. Also I didn't know the full details of the screwjob.
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 02:57 AM
I can't believe that you've made it to 3000+ posts on here without coming across the Montreal Screwjob at least 5 times.
The match you were thinking of was the "I Quit" match at Royal Rumble '99. For a new perspective on that match, watch Beyond The Mat.
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 03:00 AM
I have heard about the screwjob many times, and I know it ended in a submission without a tap-out. I didn't know that was a newly introduced rule, until you told me, so I didn't think anymore on it, I just thought that the bell was called for once Bret was in submission.
And thanks for telling me, I could have sworn it was earlier then 99 though :-\
Destor
12-29-2006, 03:01 AM
Oops my bad, I know there was a title win by the Rock where Mankind didn't submit, and Vince called for the bell, no memory of when it happened though. Also I didn't know the full details of the screwjob. Survivor Series '98.
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 03:02 AM
I thought so, thanks Des.
FourFifty
12-29-2006, 04:03 AM
Survivor Series '98.
'97
Destor
12-29-2006, 04:05 AM
No.
FourFifty
12-29-2006, 04:10 AM
Ah, where am I today. I just saw screw job and 98, didn't read the rest of the thread..... Yea, I'm a douce bag.
Stickman
12-29-2006, 01:50 PM
Basically my problem with submissions is that they don't LOOK realistic. Sharpshooter, figure four, camel clutch look painful. Abdominal stretch does not. Yes I suspend disbelief but sometimes you just can't. Even the Benoit's crossface doesn't look painful. Sure the powerbomb is a fake power move but it looks deadly. The Angle Slam does not.
I feel that with the emergance of MMA more people, kids included, are going to realize wrestling is terribly fake. I was put in an ankle lock on wednesday and I had to tap right away. For a guy to be in one for 20 seconds and then go to the ropes it's hard to suspend disbelief. So when people catch on within the next few years as they actually try martial arts, they're going to look at wrestling and be like, "If they made it more realistic looking it'd be ok."
That's why this thread is "The future of Submissions". I think in the near future, they will have to find a way to make them seem more realistic if they want fans to suspend disbelief.
Destor
12-29-2006, 01:53 PM
The abdominal stretch is the most painful submission you named.
Pepsi Man
12-29-2006, 01:55 PM
Other forms of submission fighting have been well known for years, and it usually comes up in the typical conversation about wrestling being fake. This has been the case since before I started following pro wrestling, and it will be the case long after I'm dead.
Arnold HamNegger
12-29-2006, 02:18 PM
and like you said that most would tap out right away to limit the damage, while WWE lets it go on is what this discussion is about, real submissions hurt alot, for example if you are watching MMA and see someone like Chuck Lidel tap out from an armlock in like 5 seconds, and then switch to WWE and see someone like Ric Flair take it for like 20 seconds, your like WTF.
Ok, screw what I said before. What I'd really like to see is Lidell slap the Figure 4 on Ortiz and make him tap.
"I took Jenna for a ride on Space Mountain Fatboy! WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"
:shifty:
El Fangel
12-29-2006, 02:24 PM
Me too, make him scream like a 6 year old girl, Ortiz is a little bitch. :mad:
NeanderCarl
12-29-2006, 08:18 PM
Survivor Series '98.
Oh right yeah. Got my wires crossed there. They basically rehashed that finish on PPV just two months later at Royal Rumble but with a slight twist. Vince called for the bell at the SS: Deadly Game tournament finals, and at RR they played an audio clip of Mankind yelling "I quit" from a promo during the match, implying that Mankind had quit when he hadn't. So Montreal Screwjob Mk 57 with a twist.
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