Man, I wish they went the other way with HHH/Orton

[Loose Cannon]

I watching the Raw the day after Summerslam '04 where Evolution kicks Orton out of the group after he won the Title. Now, we all know how thw shitty face run went for Orton, but I really wished they stayed heel with Orton and turned Trips baby. It would have been so easy to have Orton go against his elders and toss them to the side after helping him win the Title. Orton/Batista vs HHH and Flair. I wonder how things would of turned out for Orton if they went with that.

Wishful thinking I guess.

[Xero]

Man, I wish they went the other way with WWE 2001-2007.

[Mr. Nerfect]

LOL, Xero.

But yeah, the WWE really botched Orton's face turn. It's like they realised the fans were into him, but they didn't actually have any plans to turn him face, so they just had him become a "good guy". Really stupid shit.

There are two ways that the Triple H/Orton program could have been saved, in my opinion:

As you suggested, Randy Orton could have kicked Triple H out of Evolution. I would have kept Flair in the stable, and just have Orton replace Triple H as the "present". Triple H would be put on the shelf for a bit (I recall Triple H either getting married to Steph at this time, or something of the like...there was something he could have used to sit out), and Evolution would have run amok. Then when it came to Royal Rumble time, Triple H returns, wins the Rumble, and then faces Orton at WrestleMania 21.

The second would have been for Orton to forfeit the World Heavyweight Championship over to Triple H when The Game asked for it. It would have cut Orton's reign short at 8 days, but it would have proven he could get it done, and would create tension between Randy Orton and Triple H, with the fans eager to see Orton just sock it to Triple H.

You could have continued the Orton/Benoit program, with Benoit pissed off that Orton would just throw away not only his hard work, but Benoit's hard work, just like that.

Anyway, at Survivor Series, you'd have Orton quasi-turn on Triple H (I can imagine a spot where Chris Benoit has Triple H in the Crippler Crossface, and Orton doesn't break it up, he justs screams "Come on, Hunter!" while reaching out for the tag.

Instead of the Elimination Chamber at New Year's Revolution, I'd have gone with a Hell in a Cell between Triple H and Chris Benoit for the World Heavyweight Championship. That would have been some sweet shit. Anyway, Randy Orton wins the Royal Rumble, realises his time is now, and does what Batista did, and chases Triple H heading into WrestleMania 21.

[addy2hotty]

Alienoid, do you have notebooks where you write down every possible permutation of events in wrestling, so when threads like this come up you flick to 'Orton/Trips disgrace 2004' and fill us all in?

If so, cool.

[Corkscrewed]

lol, I wonder the same thing. Yesterday when I saw a short post from you, I marked out. Those are rare. :p :D

[Mr. Nerfect]

Alienoid, do you have notebooks where you write down every possible permutation of events in wrestling, so when threads like this come up you flick to 'Orton/Trips disgrace 2004' and fill us all in?

If so, cool.

I tend to write them on napkins, then type them into Word when I come home. :shifty:

[Jeritron]

It would have been 10 times better if Orton won the title as a heel, and stepped up to lead Evolution while Trips was gone. Then Trips comes back and they make it look like he's gonna kick Orton out of Evolution.

But instead, you then have Batista and Flair align with Orton as the new leader, and overthrow HHH. Then Orton steps up as the dominant heel leader and champion of Evolution.

[AdrianM]

i was thinking about Orton's reign the other day.

Yes, it was short and all, and it did kinda ruin him. But just seeing orton next to Edge makes me realise Orton is just not quite ready to be a main eventer. I think he was pushed too soon and I still don't think he has what it takes to be a solid main eventer just yet.

now edge on the other...he just reeks of awesomness...just like Alienoid!

[311]

Oddly, I was thinking the same thing a couple of weeks ago on RAW. Edge came out with Orton to put Michaels over and kept thinking, "I just don't buy Orton." Edge looked like a main-eventer...Orton looked like...well, exactly where he 'should' be...in the IC hunt.

[RGWhat316]

I was just reading the book "World Wrestling Insanity" and that whole feud. It basically talks about how no one got screwed more so than Orton in that feud. Orton was the man in 2004, then he got buried late in the year and never recovered.

They even planted the first seeds for Cena/Orton at Summerslam '04. It took almost 3 years to finally get that match, and Cena has just squashed him since. It's sad to see how much he has been buried.

[Jeritron]

Orton should have went over huge as a heel against Trips. And then Cena/Orton for the title at WM21. They still could have done Trips/Bats too.

[Fox]

Trips was worried someone else was becoming the hottest heel on RAW, and rightfully so. Orton was SO over back then, it was unreal. These days, he seems to be grasping at straws, trying to establish himself as the top heel he was during his run as IC Champ, but without Evolution, he just can't do it.

[Jeritron]

Trips was worried someone else was becoming the hottest heel on RAW, and rightfully so. Orton was SO over back then, it was unreal. These days, he seems to be grasping at straws, trying to establish himself as the top heel he was during his run as IC Champ, but without Evolution, he just can't do it.

I don't think its about Evolution being gone, it's about his momentum being killed. His IC reign and the fueds with Foley and Benoit were so great.

Then all of a sudden it was killed by Trips. Now he lost the momentum and regardless of what push they give him it won't come back fully.
Trips killed him, then they fed him to Taker. Then he fizzled out slowly and now hes back on Raw. RKO has been good, but Edge shines out as a superior heel in my opinion.

Plus his "legend killer" schtick wasn't much helped by the fact that he got made to look like a chump by HHH, then couldn't snap Takers streak, and then couldn't pick up the title on Smackdown, or go over Hogan.

I think beating Hogan cleanly, followed by a wrestlemania push this year would have helped him. But he got jobbed, put in a fued with Carlito, and then (IMO) became the secondary member of Rated Rko. Right now his momentum is not only gone but in the gutter.
Not to mention how he was made to look as the Raw version of Cena in 04, maybe even stronger. And now he's just fed to him.

[James Steele]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The only thing Randy Orton has going for him are his looks and his bloodline.

[Jeritron]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The only thing Randy Orton has going for him are his looks and his bloodline.

and his gimmick/character/promos in 04.

[311]

I was always annoyed by the mega-push they gave Orton out of nowhere.

Especially after the failed Angle-esque heel push they tried to shove in our faces. Instead of being pissed off that he was interrupting risque moments to tell us how well he was doing recovering, no one cared. He was getting 'zero' heat.

And then, all of a sudden BAH GAWD RANDY ORTON IS THE MAN BEHIND THE MASK! DAMN HIM!

o.O I still don't buy it. He's had some good matches, but too much, too soon, and he's 'still' not ready.

[Jeritron]

It was too much too soon, but up until August of 04 it was just right. And don't say he wasn't actually getting over, because he was.

When he joined Evolution in 03, his heat came upon subtetly. From January 04-August 04 he was solid gold. In fact his heat and IC title reign were eerily similar to the Rock's in 1998.

But when I think of the comparison, it brings me back to the point I was trying to make. The Rock was over, but not over enough to go and stand on his own two feet, or be a world champion. He ran with the IC title, and he overthrew the leader of the stable and became it himself.

This is what Orton should have done. Remained IC champion and ran Evolution, then gone for the belt with or without the stable beneath him depending on how things were going.

[Nervous Ferret]

God Orton is such a babe

[311]

It was too much too soon, but up until August of 04 it was just right. And don't say he wasn't actually getting over, because he was.

When he joined Evolution in 03, his heat came upon subtetly. From January 04-August 04 he was solid gold. In fact his heat and IC title reign were eerily similar to the Rock's in 1998.

But when I think of the comparison, it brings me back to the point I was trying to make. The Rock was over, but not over enough to go and stand on his own two feet, or be a world champion. He ran with the IC title, and he overthrew the leader of the stable and became it himself.

This is what Orton should have done. Remained IC champion and ran Evolution, then gone for the belt with or without the stable beneath him depending on how things were going.

The problem was that Farooq wasn't the leader of Evolution. :/

[Jeritron]

Yea but turning HHH face to fued with Randy Ortons evolution would have been so much bigger for him, and ultimately business.

Shit, what was Michaels doing at that time? Why not do the DX reunion that fall. Have DX fued with Evolution. Have the betrayed face HHH say Evolution was great, but blood is thicker than water and he's truer to hsi original crew.
Bam. HBK and HHH fueding with Evolution.
Put HHH and Orton in a fued. Have HBK fued with Batista w/Flair.

[311]

WWE has been blowing it's load with pushing younger stars who show a bit of shine...pretty much since Lesnar.

Look at Lashley...he is nowhere near being a main-event performer, yet there he is with the strap. I wonder how much cash he brings in anyway.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Randy Orton got a positive reaction in Toronto against Chris fucking Benoit. The guy is boring as fuck now, but back then, he was a prospect with a lot of potential. I'd personally have let him de-throne Benoit, then have him either lose the belt back to Chris Benoit when Triple H "accidentally" cost him the match, or Orton beat Benoit with Evolution's help, and then got beaten down by them and forfeited the belt back to Triple H the following week.

A tease of a World Heavyweight Title reign (while making him the youngest World Champion of all-time), and planting the seeds for Triple H vs. Randy Orton, this would have been the way to go, in my opinion.

Now, I really don't think Randy Orton should be above the mid-card. The same goes for Bobby Lashley. Hell, even John Cena would still be racking up IC and US Title wins back in the day. John Cena doesn't make enough money to truly warrant the WWE Title run he's been given.

[311]

What are the actual numbers on Cena? I would think he sells a shitload to the kiddies. Hell, kiddies eat up that white-boy thug crap. :cool:

[Jeritron]

nah, Lesnar was done right. He was meant to be shot to the moon quickly, and it was neccesarry for his character.
He got the Goldberg treatment. He had a massive year and quickly got over. The problem is that he bailed out on them.

As for Lashley, yes I think he was prematurely pushed. However I don't think thats all of it. I think he'd be fine as ECW champ if he was a heel with a mouthpeice. Or had actual compettition to put him over. Going over Holly weekly isn't giving you much of a rub.
He's actually kind of starting to get over.
Secondly, I wouldnt' call the ECW title "the strap". How credible is it? You could make the argument that holding that is about the equivalent of holding the IC or US title in current day WWE.

But anyways, Yes I agree with you. Lashley has been pushed quickly, and isn't over to be a world champ, regardless of what their intention for that belt are.
As for Orton. I think he's the best example of WWE blowing their load with a potential star. He's a prime example.
Then you have a guy like Cena, who they didn't blow it too soon with, but over-did it.
Then you have other talent where they don't blow it soon enough.

To make a star takes more precise timing and thought put into the push and booking than just throwing the world title on them ASAP once they're getting over.

[311]

I find it hilarious that Holly is a "main eventer." I think you summed it up.

[Shadow]

Actually...I've always had an alternate plans to what they did with Orton back then which I think would've gone sooooooooooo much better then the shit we had. Here's one.

Since they were hellbent on breaking Lesner's "YOUNGEST WWE CHAMP IN COMPANY HISTORY!" shit by making Orton champ, I would've gone on to do it. Then you have that rematch with Beniot in which Beniot gets killed by Evolution like he did. But instead of kicking Orton out of the group, you keep him in Evolution. And then you start having him win matches, title defenses non-title, you name it, with the help of Evolution and on his own. Meanwhile, Triple H is in the background all the time, silently and quietly gnawing on his own liver. He starts to talk to Flair and Batista, trying to turn them towards him as Orton's charisma is making Flair and Bats not listen to HHH. So after awhile say....Rumble Time, Triple H makes his move. Orton successfully defends his title against someone and Evolution comes down to ringside to celebrate. That's when you do the whole kicking out/beat down. Not only does it cause people lots and lots of satsifaction of watching HHH twist, it gives you time to get Orton over as a face.

Does that work a little better?

[Jeritron]

I find it hilarious that Holly is a "main eventer." I think you summed it up.

I know, and you can squash Holly 10 times and it's not helping you get over. Even if you claim he is a main eventer. You can squash him 100 times for that matter. And you still don't get a fraction of the rub you get from almost winning a match against Taker or Michaels, let alone them actually jobbing to you.
So if there wondering why he's the least over of their 3 champions its nothing about ability. Because history has proven to us that booking can get around that. It's all about booking and where there booking him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Actually...I've always had an alternate plans to what they did with Orton back then which I think would've gone sooooooooooo much better then the shit we had. Here's one.

Since they were hellbent on breaking Lesner's "YOUNGEST WWE CHAMP IN COMPANY HISTORY!" shit by making Orton champ, I would've gone on to do it. Then you have that rematch with Beniot in which Beniot gets killed by Evolution like he did. But instead of kicking Orton out of the group, you keep him in Evolution. And then you start having him win matches, title defenses non-title, you name it, with the help of Evolution and on his own. Meanwhile, Triple H is in the background all the time, silently and quietly gnawing on his own liver. He starts to talk to Flair and Batista, trying to turn them towards him as Orton's charisma is making Flair and Bats not listen to HHH. So after awhile say....Rumble Time, Triple H makes his move. Orton successfully defends his title against someone and Evolution comes down to ringside to celebrate. That's when you do the whole kicking out/beat down. Not only does it cause people lots and lots of satsifaction of watching HHH twist, it gives you time to get Orton over as a face.

Does that work a little better?

That would have been really good. :y:

One aspect of it I really like, as well, is the way that Orton got a chance to be a heel Champ, then he gets to play the role of face Champ in the same reign. A Champion turn has been something that the WWE has needed to pull off for a long time, in my opinion.

[311]

Hmm, trying to remember the last time they actually had a champion shift from face to heel or the other way around...

Hmm...

Austin?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Stone Cold Steve Austin would probably qualify. Hell, Randy Orton would probably qualify. The problem with those two is that they didn't really "turn" per se. The WWE altered their status from heel to face, but it was the world turning around them, rather than them turning.

I guess what I really want to see is a babyface Champion just say nuts to it all, and cracks a steel chair over the back of another babyface. I'd overlook Cena being an extremely underwhelming Champion if he turns heel and alligns himself with Vince McMahon as the new Corporate Champion.

[311]

That would be really nice actually. Cena is a monster heel in the making, in my opinion. The audience seems to be divided, and he could probably turn the kiddies easily with a big heel push. Vince could go on about how many t-shirts Cena moves ect...

Although I'm not sure they would actually 'want' his sales to go down. :nono:

(Edit: Admittedly, the last time I was 'really' excited to watch RAW was when the crowds were arguing about Cena...that was good television...especially with Edge pushing it.)

[Jeritron]

Hmm, trying to remember the last time they actually had a champion shift from face to heel or the other way around...

Hmm...

Austin?

while champion? I'm trying to think too. I know Austin and Rock turned to heels in the way they won the titles (rock in 98, austin in 01)

Brock turned face in the way he lost the belt in 02.

Usually if they have plans of changing them during a reign, they either do it right before or right after a title change. Or in the process of one.

I don't think I can think of a champion who changed while holding the belt. Its taboo. I do think it could work tho. Normally it doesn't, but I think a Cena heel turn as champion would honestly work. They almost seemed to be doing it with Batista, but they backed off. Now it looks like he'll stay face/tweener until he drops it, then maybe they'll turn him.

I say do it with Cena

[Lock Jaw]

I thought Orton did go the other way. :naughty:

[Shadow]

That would have been really good. :y:

One aspect of it I really like, as well, is the way that Orton got a chance to be a heel Champ, then he gets to play the role of face Champ in the same reign. A Champion turn has been something that the WWE has needed to pull off for a long time, in my opinion.

Thanks man. That means alot coming from you.

[James Steele]

It is easy to "get over" with Triple H and Ric Flair carrying you for over a year.

[Vastardikai]

^

And more or less going over the vast majority of the roster.

[Theo Dious]

while champion? I'm trying to think too. I know Austin and Rock turned to heels in the way they won the titles (rock in 98, austin in 01)

In 2001 Austin turned heel to win the title, and then face for a few days before the Invasion PPV, and then heel again at Invasion, and then face again the day after Survivor Series.

WTF. :wtf:

[Jeritron]

Thats the thing tho, except for the first one which was in the act of winning the title, the others were just a result of the show changing around him.
When the invasion came, he was a heel and then all of a sudden WWF was all good guys. So he was made face by default, but then they immediately set him back heel. So their plans never really changed, it was just a momentary effect of the invasion angle.

As for the night after Survivor Series, again, the invasion angle ended, WCW "folded" and it went back to the WWF. So the show changed around him and he was essentially face Austin again for less than a month before they got that belt off him.