When did the IC belt change/IC Title Discussion [Archive]

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 09:26 AM

Just to make this worthy of being in the main forum, I'll add a discussion.
Not only was the old IC belt a great belt, but it reminds me of when I first started watching wrestling and the IC feuds were the greatest. Mr. Perfect was champion when I started, and shortly after lost the belt to the Texas Tornado, who despite being a hotshot champ, wasn't bad. In the ensuing years there were great IC matches and feuds, including Perfect vs Hart, Hart vs Piper, Hart vs Bulldog, Bulldog vs Michaels, Michaels vs Razor, et, etc. Through the end of the nineties the IC scene was always the most interesting title chase, and that's been sometimes true since 2000 as well.

So, yeah, discuss.

addy2hotty

03-07-2007, 09:36 AM

The IC title feuds of the mid nineties and Attitude era were some of the best feuds that wrestling had to offer. Highlights including the Diesel/Razor matches, the ladder match at Wrestlemania 10, The Rock/Triple H ladder match. the Jericho/Benoit/Angle feud for the title.

Nowadays, especially since Rob Van Dam won the IC title at Wrestlemania 18, the IC title is nothing but a prop. The heritage of the title has been allowed to waste away and the fact that the title, once probably the second most prestigious in the business, has not been defending at any Wrestlemania since the Rob Van Dam/William Regal match at WM18 is truely criminal.

Jeritron

03-07-2007, 09:38 AM

It wasn't when Austin threw it off the bridge, Rock had back the old one after that. Rock had the old one at WM14 as well.

The night after WM14 without real explanation Austin and The Rocks World and IC belts respectively changed. They were just modernized and I guess it was part of the "new era" beginning after WM14. So yea, the night after WM14 in 98.

The European belts and Tag belts stayed the same since they were pretty modern as it was.

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 09:45 AM

Not to mention that when you look at certain feuds, like Bret vs HBK, Rock vs Austin, Rock vs HHH, the matches they put on for the IC title often seem to outshine the World Title matchs. Probably because they had to work harder and be more impressive to ensure that they were noticed.

The brand extension IMO went a long way towards devaluing the IC title. Once you had a pair of World Titles on your hands, suddenly getting the IC belt onto a PPV was suddenly far less important in the overall scheme. And the fact that the title itself was inactive for over half a year didn't help either.

Though it did lead to one of Austin's best lines ever: "While I was away, some jackass abolished the Intercontinental Title!"

Truer words never spoken. At least in regards to this strap.

Jeritron

03-07-2007, 09:49 AM

Jericho and Benoit were doing that in 2000 as well

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 09:52 AM

Incidentally, how many truly great world champions were never IC champion? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

addy2hotty

03-07-2007, 09:53 AM

To be fair, it might as well have stayed abolished. What have we had since Austin reintroduced it? Various pointless Jericho reigns, Shelton Benjamin holding it for over a year, Sheltons mum carrying it around, Carlito pointlessly having it, and now a fat Samoan madman drooling all over it and having his lackey carry it around. Only Jeff Hardy has given it anything like a lift in the last few years.

That's another thing, I can't handle wrestlers who don't wear the belts. Hate that.

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 10:02 AM

Yeah, Hardy/Nitro has been the better part of it. Orton's reign was a high point because he actually put it over and made it seem credible. Carlito's reign was only bad because he wasn't given any decent competition before they let Flair masturbate all over it.

owenbrown

03-07-2007, 10:10 AM

The original of the current version of the IC belt in the beginning had the old WWF block logo for a short time then changed to the Attitude logo I believe after Jeff Jarrett's 6th and final title reign ended when he dropped it to Chyna before bolting to WCW because he is the last one I remember wearing the belt with the block WWF logo. My question is why did they wait until AFTER it was unified with the WHC then reinstated before they changed it to the current design with the WWE logo and nameplate. I mean, I know it was only 5½ months after the company name change when they consolidated the IC and European belts into the WHC, but it shouldn't take a really long time to make a new belt should it? The Undisputed WWF championship belt was introduced on April 1, 2002 and shortly after The Undertaker beat Hogan for the belt and WWF became the WWE, a larger version of that belt was made with the WWE logo on it? So what took them so long? :?:

addy2hotty

03-07-2007, 10:13 AM

I wish an IC champ would come out and say 'Im the fucking IC champ, im fucking good, get the fuck out of my way' or something like that. I don't think its been mentioned that Umaga is the actual IC champ since he won it.

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 10:19 AM

JBL did that in his reign as US champ and it actually made the title look like something worth having, worth desiring, worth fighting over. Instead of just a piece of oversized bling.

NeanderCarl

03-07-2007, 10:22 AM

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 10:37 AM

The classic I-C belt first held by Tito Santana and lastly held by The Rock was the best looking championship title of all time, in my opinion. And whats more, the quality of matches that were contested over it were mostly tremendous.

For crying out loud, when an Elvis impersonator holding your belt for over a year DOESN'T destroy the belt's credibility, you know you have a major entity on your hands.
Though the whole "Warrior wins the belt from a long-term champion in an unannounced match that lasted less time than it takes to make a sandwich" was pretty crappy. I realize that the crowds popped like mad for it and all, but even as a 12 year old looking back on it, I felt pissed about it.

Mr. Nerfect

03-07-2007, 11:39 AM

If they do Carlito vs. Ric Flair at WrestleMania, they should put the IC Title in the match. Either that or have Shelton Benjamin and Charlie Haas wrestle each other for the belt. :drool:

When he comes to RAW, I want to see Chris Benoit win like his fifth Intercontinental Championship, and then defend the belt against Paul Burchill. That match will rule. I think by the end of the year, Paul Burchill and Kenny Dykstra will be vying for the belt, and it will be in a glorious position, again.

addy2hotty

03-07-2007, 11:40 AM

Alienoid....Paul Burchill will never amount to anything.

Mr. Nerfect

03-07-2007, 11:51 AM

Alienoid....Paul Burchill will never amount to anything.

:( He may.

THERE'S NO GLASS CEILING TO ME DAMMIT!

NeanderCarl

03-07-2007, 11:52 AM

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 11:59 AM

:lol: I just love Alienoid's sheer enthusiasm for great in-ring wrestlers that never get anywhere in the business. If Alienoid were a booker, the ratings would suck, but wrestling purists all around the world would be masturbating over the product.

Nah, the ratings would tank, but I think they'd come up again as people started to realize what a great product was being put out.

NeanderCarl

03-07-2007, 01:02 PM

Nah, wrestling has a more limited audience than sports entertainment, plus my point was that Alienoid's mad scientist booking mind can churn out some interesting, even entertaining, angles but the wrestlers he tends to favour don't have the dexterity/charisma to pull those angles off. I could watch Benoit wrestle for an hour, but I couldn't sit through a long Benoit promo to establish a feud, clarify a story etc. A backstage angle between Paul Birchall and Doug Basham?? Hmmm.

I think the AWF (Alienoid Wrestling Federation) would push the wrestlers at the expense of charismatic storytelling. Like I say, it would be a purist's dream, but don't expect a large percentage of WWE fans to tune in! Not saying it's right or wrong. I think wrestling needs optimists like Alienoid. There should definitely be an Alienoid in Titan Towers.

Russenmafia

03-07-2007, 02:24 PM

When he comes to RAW, I want to see Chris Benoit win like his fifth Intercontinental Championship, and then defend the belt against Paul Burchill. That match will rule. I think by the end of the year, Paul Burchill and Kenny Dykstra will be vying for the belt, and it will be in a glorious position, again.

Don't see the point in given ANOTHER secondary title to Benoit. He has won that many I.C/US titles I have lost count.

Stickman

03-07-2007, 02:40 PM

03-07-2007, 03:18 PM

Yeah my recollection was that HBK went out injured whilst holding the IC belt, which was then held up in a tournament.

When Shawn came back he brought an IC belt back with him claiming that as he hadn't been beaten he was still the true champ.

Both titles were held above the ring during the Ladder Match between HBK and Razor Ramon to decide the undisputed IC Champ.

NeanderCarl

03-07-2007, 03:20 PM

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 03:24 PM

That's pretty much correct. It was actually quite entertaining to have Michaels appear on programming calling himself the "Undisputed Intercontinental Champion."

NeanderCarl

03-07-2007, 03:26 PM

If it hadn't been so similar to the Ric Flair's 'Real World Champion' gimmick from less than two years prior, it would have been better.

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 03:30 PM

It did come off a little better though. Michaels' claim was that he was never beaten for the belt, which is true. And everybody knew what belt he had and why he was still calling himself the champion. I was in like 7th grade when Flair did the Real World's Champion bit, and I remember there being kids at school who didn't watch WCW, barely knew about it, and had never seen Flair before. And while there was eventually a match to settle the Intercontinental business, Flair stopped touting his old championship when he won the WWF title, which he proceeded to insist was the world's greatest title anyways.

The One

03-07-2007, 04:09 PM

The IC Title has meant a damn thing since May of 2000. When Benoit dropped it to Rikishi, who dropped it to Venis, who dropped it to Chyna...BLAH. The Eddie/Gunn/Benoit/Jericho runs did help a little, but once HHH got the belt and it was used as basically as Hunter's "I got a title too!" compared to Austin's World Belt...it just hasn't been the same. Because let's face it, the IC belt during the InVasion was poorly booked at best. We had fucking Albert as a champ during that time. And despite a number of very legendary wrestlers holding the belt between 2000 and now (Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, RVD, Edge, Christian, Orton and even Flair himself) it simply hasn't been booked to make it seem worthy of it's once time honored place as the thrid greatest title in wrestling history (preceeded by the NWA World and WWE Title naturally)...

.44 Magdalene

03-07-2007, 04:20 PM

To be honest, there's been times recently where I was more interested in the IC title than the World titles. During the Nitro / Hardy / Carlito / Masters / Super Crazy? / all the time feuding madness, I wasn't real sure who was going to have the belt next or when. The big belt, on the other hand, is a little boring--you know nobody's just going to pop in and win it on RAW. The IC belt still has that sense of "anything can happen" to it, sometimes.

Stickman

03-07-2007, 04:25 PM

IC belt still has that sense of "anything can happen" to it, sometimes.

Because it gets tossed around almost as often as the Tag and Women's belt.

.44 Magdalene

03-07-2007, 04:31 PM

Meh. Kept me entertained.

03-07-2007, 04:51 PM

What happened was Shawn Michaels was suspended from WWF during his second Intercontinental title run, and the belt was declared vacant. Razor Ramon won the vacant title, defeating Rick Martel in the deciding match after the two were the last two remaining participants in a battle royal on Raw, and went about his business as the champ. Shawn Michaels returned at Survivor Series 1993 and declared himself the REAL Intercontinental champ, because he never lost the belt. He would wear his version of the belt to the ring.

At WrestleMania X, both belts were placed above the ring for the Ramon vs Michaels Ladder Match, to determine the undisputed champion.
That's what I said!:shifty:

I think it's pretty much the same with all titles across the board nowadays. There only ever seems to be one guy trying to win the belt at any given time.

Like above when Nitro / Shelton / Carlito / Masters / Super Crazy et al lining up for a shot it makes it interesting. WWE seems to usually want one person / team going for a title at one time.

Every month or so someone will come in and be the "NEW IC/US/Tag Team/Women's Championship contender". It makes things boring, it doesn't breed that feeling of competition.

The same can be pretty much said about the World titles too.

I'm looking forward to a time where you really don't know who's gonna get the shot/take the belt. Perhaps after WM we'll see this. You'll have a champ, the guy that lost in the championship match, the MITB winner and perhaps anyone else that won a big match at Mania.

For example:

HBK beats Cena at WM. Cena is gonna want a rematch. Then you have say Edge as the MITB winner that can strike at any time. Even add in Orton who very narrowly lost out to Edge in MITB. Then you can add in say Khali (who beats Kane at WM).

You have

HBK (Champ)
Cnea (Former Champ)
Edge (MITB Winner)
Orton
Khali

All vying for a shot at the gold.

Remember back in 2000 when you had Rock, Benoit, Taker & Kane all fighting it out for the Gold. That was some pretty tight stuff!

addy2hotty

03-07-2007, 05:03 PM

That's pretty much correct. It was actually quite entertaining to have Michaels appear on programming calling himself the "Undisputed Intercontinental Champion."

Agreed. It meant a shit to the people fighting over it at that time. They were fighting over who was the actual champ. Nowadays, it seems to be just a added bonus in a feud. 'Ooh Umaga's champ but he doesn't understand what it is so doesn't give a shit.'

I can't remember too many times during the Hardy/Nitro matches that one said to the other 'Im going to take your IC title'.

They might as well get rid of the fucking thing if its as meaningless as it's been portrayed.

NeanderCarl

03-07-2007, 05:51 PM

That's what I said!:shifty:

Yeah, well we both posted at more or less the same time, I was still writing my response while you were posting so I didn't see it.

03-07-2007, 06:51 PM

I was joking anyways as your post had all the details that I forgot / didn't know / didn't wanna get wrong.

Theo Dious

03-07-2007, 09:47 PM

I think it's pretty much the same with all titles across the board nowadays. There only ever seems to be one guy trying to win the belt at any given time.

Yeah, remember when whole feuds would break out over two guys going for the same midcard belt? Like the time Michaels came out during a Bret Hart/Rick Martel IC title match. Martel had Hart in a Boston Crab, and may have won right there, but Michaels started beating on Hart from outside the ring. Martel was DQed, which Michaels obviously wanted. Suddenly Martel and Michaels are going at it, leading to a very bizzare "no hitting in the face" match at Summerslam, with no mention of IC contendership. We need that sort of thing again.

addy2hotty

03-07-2007, 10:29 PM

Haha, I was present at the 'pretty boy' match at Summerslam 92 at Wembley. It was day light, the fans didn't really give a shit about any of the under card of that show, and it was just...random. Ended in a double count-out on memory.

PullMyFinger

03-07-2007, 10:29 PM

The WWE really has no developed mid-card since the end of the Attitude Era. It's been a big main event top tier scene, but nothing below that. For a while I thought Randy Orton had brought back some prestige to the belt, but that was it.

Honky Tonk Man

03-08-2007, 11:54 AM

Yeah dude, the old IC belt is probably the best looking belt of all time. It looked good around the waist of Hart, Bulldog, Perfect, Rude, Martel, HBK.

I don't know if it happened, but wasn't there 2 IC belts at one time. HBK had one and I think Martel had the other? I used to wrestling my stuff animals and win the belt, and I'd wear 2 IC belts......shut up.

Now even I admit those boys were great champions, but if want to look at a model of what an IC Champion should be, you need to get yourself some tapes of the Honky Tonk Man brother. You'll have a years worth of IC Title Matches right there buddy. Not to mention, some of the greatest moments of all-time. As a matter of fact, I blasted Bret Hart with a guitar once. His family felt it all the way back to Canada.

Stickman

03-08-2007, 12:32 PM

I too thought Orton actually put over the belt, but then he lost it and they kind of dropped the ball after that.

NeanderCarl

03-08-2007, 08:32 PM

Yeah, Randy Orton and Shelton Benjamin (first reign) were two of the best runs in recent memory in my view.

Russenmafia

03-12-2007, 06:17 PM

the title went down the crapper as soon as Chyna won it.

The One

03-12-2007, 06:18 PM

Chyna's first reign wasn't the worst thing ever...her second run sure was horrific.

Dorkchop

03-12-2007, 09:12 PM

I love when Christian won the re-intodiced IC title. I'm a huge mark for him, so that was happy times.

Jeritron

03-14-2007, 04:10 AM

the title went down the crapper as soon as Chyna won it.

thats bullshit and you know it because she was way over and everyone bought it. Not to mention the next string of champions after her were Jericho, Angle and Benoit.

After them it was Rikishi (who was at a high point in his career) and Eddie Guerrero.

It went down the drain when Albert won it.

Russenmafia

03-14-2007, 04:24 PM

thats bullshit and you know it because she was way over and everyone bought it. Not to mention the next string of champions after her were Jericho, Angle and Benoit.

After them it was Rikishi (who was at a high point in his career) and Eddie Guerrero.

It went down the drain when Albert won it.

its not bullshit, just my opinion. I thought she was a terrible champion.

Jeritron

03-15-2007, 04:29 AM

I'll go on record as saying Jeff Hardy was the best IC champion in ages.

We talk about how in the old days it was the secondary title and the matches outshined the main events. Plus we talk about how over the people holding it were. Well think about this..

Cena, Lashley and Batista were the primary world champs

and Jeff and Benoit were the secondary champs. If you ask me, I'm down with the secondary champs. Not just as better wrestlers, but to me as better characters.

Jeritron

03-15-2007, 04:35 AM

I'm telling you people, Albert. When Albert won it, it was a joke. It was becoming a bit of a joke before that when they had Triple H come in and win it when he was already a 4 time champion. And then likewise with Kane. Sure I guess that would in most cases lend credibility. But it seemed to make the title look small on them. It belittled them more than it helped the belt.
After that, aside from Edge and Lance Storm the belt struggled. Probably because there were like 10 belts on one program during the invasion.

RVD was a great IC champion, the timing was right for him to win it, and he fit the mold. Personally, he should have ran with it. They should have ran with a lengthy RVD reign and/or a lenghty RVD/Edge IC title fued.

The big problem came when they started bumping dudes back down. They failed to give RVD a great reign. Edge's was overshadowed. Then Benoit and Jericho were IC champion...while Hogan and Taker were world champions.
They never should have been bumped down to that status. It made the IC belt look like the losers lounge.

Once it was reintroduced, it was actually pretty good. Thanks to brand extension, it stood out well on its show. Christian and RVD were lending it some decent credibility. Then came Orton, probably the best IC champion since Jerichos first reign and Rock in 98.

Ever since that its no good. Jeff and Nitro was the best thing going on Raw but they overdid it and took the belt off him just when he was getting rolling IMO.
He had survived so much, he had even gotten past Khali still with the belt. And his run was just starting to get credible.

El Fangel

03-15-2007, 06:51 AM

In my opinion, the IC title is, or was better then the World Title. There were more matches for it, and were done by many upper level mid-carders who were just shy of the main-event. Usually the IC feuds were well done, E.G Austin/Rock Rock/HHH Jericho/Benoit. The World Title feuds tend to be less...agressive as the title is defended roughly once every 30 days or so at a PPV, and you could usually tell who would win it. With the IC title it didn't have the fame or prestige of the World Title, But it had credibility and with it many wrestlers went on to win the world title. It gave wrestlers a look from the top, but not under the spotlight, so they wouldn't get stagefright when they did get the World Title, and have the responsibility of being at the top of the company. It seems nowadays the title is meaningless, and is just something the writers add to some wrestlers to make them stand out a bit more. there used to be a time I would keep track of each champ (World, IC, Tag,European, Light Heavyweight/Cruiserweight, Womans, and Hardcore) Now with 3 of them gone, 2 tags that are uninteresting, womans totally retarded, and cruiserweight being buried. Titles other then the World Titles seem to be so pointless.

Jeritron

03-15-2007, 09:01 AM

Its becuase there needs to be one world title, the ic belt, one set of tag belts, the cruiserweight and womens belt, and perhaps the european title. And it needs to be across both Raw and Smackdown as one united brand.

Then if you wanna have another champion and television champion, with a set of tag belts on a 2 hour ECW (with 1 or 2 more credible main eventers i.e. Rey, Benoit or Jeff) THEN you're in business.

El Fangel

03-15-2007, 09:05 AM

I think that a return of the hardcore and european titles, along with a merging of the brands, and their respective titles (world, and tag) would make wrestling so much more tolerable.

Jeritron

03-15-2007, 09:30 AM

if ecw got a talent boost, and an extra hour I'd be all for putting the hardcore title on that show. Seriously, the hardcore title with the 24 hour rule there would seriously help their under to mid card.

Then a solid TV title division of upper midcarders, like Punk, Elijah Burke, Thorne, Marcus Cor Von and Sandman and Dreamer since they're not gonna make them main eventers. That'd be key to defining their upper mid card and creating their new stars.

Then you have their apparent upcoming tag division.

As for their world title, the talent boost would help this immensely. And tbh, I think RVD is gonna stay now. I thought he'd go to TNA but I'm doubting it now. I think his contract will come up and WWE will convince him to stay, right now their jobbing him cuz they're afraid to have a strong former champion head to TNA. Once he's under a new contract and staying put, I'm sure they'll say that he's "paid his time" and push him again.

Seriously though, I'm really strong on thinking ECW can be saved. But I'd like to see the addition of the Hardcore 24 hour title, the TV title (on Punk),
and the addition of some talent.
If Raw and Smackdown unite, and cut out some of their titles, you have a lot of talent on one brand. So I'd say send some to ECW.
ECW would take a huge boost in terms of product and ratings if they got Benoit as an instant main eventer. Rey as a main event/upper mid card star. And the hardys as a tag team with singles potential at any time.

But I guess back to the IC title, which needs to be unified with the US title and put on someone like Carlito or Kennedy for a solid run. In fact, those 2 should fued with eachother over both belts and then a resulting back and forth fued til they're both way over.