Should the failure of ECW be placed on RVD?

[Arnold HamNegger]

I was thinking about how different ECW possibly would be right now if RVD hadn't fucked up. Going by reports at the time, Vince was planning on giving RVD a long Title run to help establish the credibility of the ECW brand. These are some things that could have been avoided or could be different if RVD hadn't felt the need to "weed and speed":

1. Bobby Lashley's push.

2. People such as Hardcore Holly, Test and Snitsky (it's coming) being thrown repeatedly in Main Event title matches.

3. ECW would not fall into the WWE "Same Old Shit" category with it's Title holders. This means, muscle guys with limited move sets, no athletic moves. Lashley vs. Cena vs. Batista. There's no difference.

4. Paul Heyman may still be creatively involved. Seems like after RVD got in the doghouse and lost both belts, things went down hill between Heyman and Vince/WWE/ECW.

5. The disaster of "December to Dismember" could have been avoided. This also was the final nail in the coffin for Heyman being dismissed/quitting ECW.

6. Not to mention this would have kept the belt off from John Cena for alot longer.

7. Actual "Hardcore Rules" involved with every Title match. The fact that the ECW title is EVER defended on any other stipulations than "Hardcore Rules" is pretty damn pathetic IMO.

8. Ratings would not be so low if RVD was champ. Some of the ECW faithful may have stuck around longer.

9. Vince and ECW/WWE creative seemed to have a long term plan with RVD at the helm. When he fucked up, everything seemed to be thrown together out of panic storyline wise and ECW never fully recovered. Big Show was given the belt and everyone and their mothers were making an appearance on ECW from RAW and Smackdown. It has taken MUCH longer to develop any character depth or storylines due to ECW tv time being taken up by Raw/Smackdown talent.

10. RVD and CM Punk would possibly have been written a program together by now. There seems like NO CHANCE of that at the moment due to both being in the "doghouse." To me and from what I've read on TPWW, this is the fued that alot of fans have been waiting for from the new ECW.

There are probably other factors that I've forgotten, but this will be good to start. Opinions?

(Keep in mind that I'm a HUGE RVD fan, so this isn't an "Anti-RVD" rant.)

[The One]

Had RVD not gone speeding while weeding ECW would be in a MUCH better place, however to blame RVD for the generally piss poor booking is kind of too much. It be like if you blamed Lex Lugar for how quickly the quality of RAW dropped after his blabing about WrestleMania's outcome. He played a contributing factor, but one that EASILY could have been over come with even a touch of common sense planning and booking.

[St. Jimmy]

Should the failure of Christianity be placed on Jesus Christ?

[The One]

No, the failures of Christianity should be placed on Santa Claus.

[Übermensch]

RVD's actions didn't create a singular inevitability for events to unfold as they did.

[Volare]

I was thinking more of the Easter Bunny...Or Cupid

[The Show Off]

I wouldn't blame Rob Van Dam for the down fall of the ECW brand. The blame totally lies with the booking commitiee and Vince McMahon who want ECW to be a brand and not a diffrrent entity.

I personally wouldn't have stripped Rob Van Dam of the title after he got caught for the speeding and smoking weed, but I can understand why some would. That being said I think the whole idea of The Big Show winning the title and RVD getting screwed was a pretty cool storyline. What they needed to do was have RVD go over him at December to Dismember. Then after December to Dismember have Paul Heyman try to get the title off of him. The stoyline could have been the fact that Heyman wanted to disassociate himself from the ECW of the past. This would lead to Bobby Lashley comming in a a scilent uber heel, which Paul Heyman would be the mouth piece. This would lead to Rob Van Dam versus Bobby Lashley at Wrestlemania which as long as it is a hardcore match should have been pretty good.

In summation you could have stripped RVD of the title and still worked out a pretty good program, but alas the WWE is more about punishing people then putting on a good show.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Had RVD not gone speeding while weeding ECW would be in a MUCH better place, however to blame RVD for the generally piss poor booking is kind of too much. It be like if you blamed Lex Lugar for how quickly the quality of RAW dropped after his blabing about WrestleMania's outcome. He played a contributing factor, but one that EASILY could have been over come with even a touch of common sense planning and booking.

Yeah, this is the part that gets me. You'd think that "paid professional writers" could overcome something like this or at least come up with something better than they did. I mean, injuries happen all the time and storylines need to be changed with no warning. Problem I see is that the "Hollywood writers" WWE seems to be fascinated with really aren't used to these problems writing for regular TV shows. Not many regular shows have to be rewritten or majorly changed in the middle due to a Star's injury. They do have the occassional drug rehab or death, but the last show I can think that had something major was that John Ritter show "8 Simple Rules for Dating My Teenage Daughter."

Obviously, his unfortunate death changed things drastically, but that is rare for a Hollywood TV show to lose it's main character right at the heart of it's popularity.

I don't know, this is just my half assed logic for trying to make excuses for why they suck balls with ECW creatively.

[Pepsi Man]

I feel that a lot of those things (at least 75%) would've happened the same way or pretty much the same way that they did regardless. I don't feel like going down the whole list right now, so I'll give someone else the chance to bring some of that back down to Earth before I do.

[Arnold HamNegger]

In summation you could have stripped RVD of the title and still worked out a pretty good program, but alas the WWE is more about punishing people then putting on a good show.

:y:

[Arnold HamNegger]

I feel that a lot of those things (at least 75%) would've happened the same way or pretty much the same way that they did regardless. I don't feel like going down the whole list right now, so I'll give someone else the chance to bring some of that back down to Earth before I do.

I don't really see anything I listed as being "off in Space", so if you care to elaborate that would be cool.

The key factor to this, is that I don't really remember a major brand launched/resurrected squarely on the shoulders of one Superstar quite like this.....and he flat out dropped the ball 5 yards after kickoff. He was given EVERYTHING WWE had to offer. Leading ECW, the ECW Title, WWE's most coveted belt, etc. They basically put all their eggs in one basket only to have the basket's bottom fall out.

Things like ratings and quality of the DTD PPV are obviousy speculation, but I'd be willing to bet with RVD as champ they would have had a much better main event at DTD than they did. Again, I don't have a magic crystal ball, but it couldn't have been any worse.

Like I said, I'm not hanging RVD to a cross or anything (St. Jimmy). I'm just curious to hear peoples opinions on this.

I personally wouldn't have stripped Rob Van Dam of the title after he got caught for the speeding and smoking weed, but I can understand why some would. That being said I think the whole idea of The Big Show winning the title and RVD getting screwed was a pretty cool storyline. What they needed to do was have RVD go over him at December to Dismember. Then after December to Dismember have Paul Heyman try to get the title off of him. The stoyline could have been the fact that Heyman wanted to disassociate himself from the ECW of the past. This would lead to Bobby Lashley comming in a a scilent uber heel, which Paul Heyman would be the mouth piece. This would lead to Rob Van Dam versus Bobby Lashley at Wrestlemania which as long as it is a hardcore match should have been pretty good.

I like this idea, but this is one of the debatable factors. Would Bobby Lashley even have been moved to ECW had RVD not fucked up?


For the record, I hope RVD resigns with WWE and they get him back in the main event scene. I was pushing for him to jump to TNA for a while, but TNA just seems to be getting worse and worse.

[addy2hotty]

IMO, they didn't want to give the title to Van Dam in the first place, the drugs thing gave them ample oppotunity to bury the foolish bastard.

[Arnold HamNegger]

IMO, they didn't want to give the title to Van Dam in the first place, the drugs thing gave them ample oppotunity to bury the foolish bastard.

Without the resurrection of ECW, I really doubt they would have either.

[jindrak]

Had the WWE not had a Drug Wellness policy, then the 'weed and speed' situation might've been overlooked, possibly embraced in storylines. The situation did play to RVD's gimmick, so it only could help.

[Mr. JL]

WWECW was doomed to begin with.

[Mr. JL]

It just wouldn't have sucked so much had RVD not been busted.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Had the WWE not had a Drug Wellness policy, then the 'weed and speed' situation might've been overlooked, possibly embraced in storylines. The situation did play to RVD's gimmick, so it only could help.

I still wish they had written the whole bust into a storyline. That could have been hilarious. I picture RVD sitting in a locker room with his head in his hands as he asks Heyman:

RVD- "So tell me what happened again?"

Heyman- "Well Rob, you won the WWE Title from John Cena at ONS 2...but proceeded to celebrate and go on a 3 week weed binge. On the first episode of the new resurrected ECW, I christened you the new ECW champion. You held both belts for a few weeks, but went against my wishes and defended both titles night after night. Then you got busted with Sabu in Ohio for driving while blazed out of your mind. Rob, you weren't even wearing a shirt at the time of your arrest. Then in consecutive nights, you lost the WWE Title to Edge and then lost the ECW Title to Big Show. Now, some people are gonna try and tell you that "I" screwed you out of the ECW Title, but that's not true...it was that damn Vince!"

RVD- "Whhoooooaaa, wait a minute................ECW is back?"

[jindrak]

The July 4th ECW on Sci-Fi show was hilarious for the 'you smoke pot' and 'marijuana' chants. Of course, that was mainly an ECW crowd in a neraly empty arena.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't think everything can be connected to RVD's release. The One has hit the nail on the head (and I'm sure some others have too). RVD was certainly an early contributing factor, but I think there are some other things to consider.

Heyman was the one who initially pegged the idea of Bobby Lashley coming over to ECW (according to rumours). Lashley wasn't getting along with Michael Hayes, or something, and Heyman felt like he could be a main event player in ECW. If RVD was Champion, and had his way with everything, you'd have had a successful December to Dismember, but right about the dawn of 2007, troubles would have started cropping up.

There was a news report about Vince McMahon and Paul Heyman disagreeing about how Bobby Lashley should be used. Heyman wanted to turn him heel, and slap a mouthpiece on him. McMahon wanted RVD to be the one who turned heel, and for Lashley to chase him. ECW probably would have been ripped from Heyman at that time, and we'd see the general decline now. Only RVD would be the heel ECW Champion, and Lashley would be the babyface challenger for WrestleMania. That's actually a program I like better than the whole Battle of the Billionaires thing.

A point I would like to make: I wouldn't have taken the ECW World Championship off RVD just because he was caught smoking dope. I am aware that the the brand is under the WWE banner, and right from the start it was meant to slowly be phased into a WWE-style brand (which one could turn into another point about RVD's incident being only a contributor), but the ECW spirit was kind of the do whatever you want lifestyle. I can understand why they took the WWE Championship off RVD, but the ECW Championship was fine on him, in my opinion.

The past is the past, though, so it's all kind of irrelevent. I'll just close with saying that even if the WWE was right to keep RVD away from the ECW Title, he should be allowed near it now. It could save him jumping to TNA, and would make ECW a more fascinating place.

[NeanderCarl]

The December to Dismember PPV flopped because there was only one match announced and built up before hand, and then that match didn't deliver ("Extreme" Elimination Chamber??? The weapons barely even played a factor) and because the weekly TV show had been so poorly booked, from top to bottom, that there was really nothing worth paying money to see on the entire roster.

RVD as champion or not, didn't matter. Unless they were going to turn ECW into "The RVD Hour" it makes no difference to rest of the fucked up show.

[addy2hotty]

Got to agree with Carl. After the RVD incident, it seemed that somewhere along the line - TPTB completely lost control of the direction of ECW. Perhaps Heyman was involved with this, and that's why he was chucked out of the decision making process. Heyman is a good booker and all, of that I have no doubt, but I can honestly see him protesting like ECW was his baby, and the others fighting against him. Perhaps bringing up 'RVD' as reasoning why he shoudln't be around. Heyman probably put his entire reputation on the line for RVD to be WWE/ECW champ at the same time - a damn huge event - and it fell apart in front of his eyes.

D2D was the death knell, simple as that. It showed up ECW for what it was. A shambles. And that shambles continues into Mania. The ECW title is equal in its prestige to the WWE Intercontinental Title. There is one ECW guy out of 8 competitors in the MITB match. A guy who was champ a few months back is now down to competing in a 8-man tag match with glorified jobbers. The headline events on ECW are guys from other shows appearing.

[NeanderCarl]

I know I'm only saying what has already been said a thousand times, but what IS the point of having a third brand if it's going to be exactly the same as the other two?

It's like... if McDonald's decided to open a new chain, called McDonald's 2. They throw a McDonald's 2 in every major town and city around the world. It's just a few doors away from the original McDonald's outlet, the menu is virtually identical and the prices are exactly the same. If you didn't like McDonald's, you're not going to bother trying out McDonald's 2. If you did like McDonald's, what is there to attract you to McDonald's 2 that is any different to McDonald's 1?

So now McDonald's announces another new brand... McDonald's 3! At first it sounds exciting... new recipes from around the world... some new twists on some old favorites... a cornucopia of previously unseen culinary treats. New customers show up to try this new fangled McDonald's 3. People who can't stand McDonald's think they will try out McDonald's 3 as it is fresh, new and different. Takings aren't as high as McDonald's 1 and 2, but their product is reaching a different kind of customer, and word of mouth is starting to increase. As the weeks go by, the new items slowly begin to disappear from the menu, as do the new customers. In a few weeks, the menu at McDonald's 3 looks exactly the same as the menu at McDonald's 1 and 2. They are competing with each other, but with the same product at the same prices. It doesn't make any fucking sense. Why open a third burger bar when they could have made this one a fried chicken place? After all, they already have two burger chains.

And if WWE does insist on having a third brand identical to Raw and SmackDown, don't have the audacity to call your diluted third brand EXTREME Championship Wrestling, you fucking morons. All it serves to do is make your lame, tame Tuesday programming look hypocritical and laughable, and further alienate the original ECW fans who probably haven't watched a mainstream wrestling promotion since 2001.... you know, the lapsed wrestling fans you should be trying to win back by offering chicken instead of more burgers, you business geniuses, you.

[Blitz]

Nope.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The December to Dismember PPV flopped because there was only one match announced and built up before hand, and then that match didn't deliver ("Extreme" Elimination Chamber??? The weapons barely even played a factor) and because the weekly TV show had been so poorly booked, from top to bottom, that there was really nothing worth paying money to see on the entire roster.

RVD as champion or not, didn't matter. Unless they were going to turn ECW into "The RVD Hour" it makes no difference to rest of the fucked up show.

But if RVD was chasing Big Show, or something, they might have announced a card that people cared about.

[Jeritron]

I think RVD's failures as a champion, which led to him being punished, certainly hurt ECW. But I wouldn't make it the complete scapegoat.
I blame the lack of established talent. It's been treated like heat. The best move they made was putting Kurt Angle on that show.

Has anyone mentioned that the failure may be able to be placed on Kurt Angle? I mean seriously, they need over main eventers on ECW. Kurt Angle and RVD were them, along with Big Show and Sabu on a smaller level.
Then, Angle up and leaves WWE, and RVD gets busted for weed. That takes your two biggest names out.
Then its all up to Big Show and Sabu, and they're not exactly Kurt Angle and RVD in terms of credibility and main event drawing power.

They should have moved Jeff Hardy and Benoit over to ECW in the fall. Jeff was returning to WWE, and Benoit was returning to action from a long sebatacle. Perfect oppurtunites.

They should have developed a midcard, introduced the TV title, and most importantly of all (for their first PPV) built fucking matches. They built one match. They wasted 6 "stars" and I use that term loosely, in one match.
It all stems back to a lack of over talent and potential midcard success talent.

[NeanderCarl]

Well, seeing as Kurt was basically forced out, the WWE takes responsibility for that one.

In fact, Vince and Stephanie, as the bottom line of the creative team, have to shoulder the burden of ECW's failure. Nothing appears on TV that wasn't approved by them. Also, maybe a fraction can be placed on Sci-Fi for dictating the sort of show that their audience would like.

[Jeritron]

Kurt and RVDs problems that led to WWE's responses regarding them hurt a lot.

But there were plenty of resources and oppurtunites to make the promotion work off the bat. It could still be saved, I stand by that. They just need to make the commitment to actually care about it.

It's like they expect the show and the wrestlers to get over on their own just by being on tv with a WWE blessing. WWE needs to invest thought, talent, booking and quality into that show, the wrestlers and the title to make all of them credible.

[TerranRich]

RVD isn't the cause of ECW's shit-ness, but his lack of a push could be a factor.

[Jeritron]

yea well his lack of push is a result of his own doings. And please don't say its not. So since that comes back to him, that's the line of logic being employed here.
It makes sense, however I disagree. He cannot be blamed. Neither can Kurt. But they are certainly contributors
They cause bumps in the road, but ultimately its the fault of WWE for failing to compensate for said problems and not focusing on making the brand succeed with an existing fanbase while getting a new one, despite the various resources they had to invest into it. They need to care, and use some of their tools to get it over.

RVD will still be in WWE at the end of the year too.

[TerranRich]

No, it's definitely as a result of his own doings. He fucked up pretty bad, and could've made ECW. Well, maybe that's a stretch, but he would've made it better at least.

WWE's shitty handling of ECW is the cause of ECW's failure as a brand. RVD could've saved it, but he didn't have anything to do directly with ECW's failure.

[Jeritron]

he fucked up his career dude. Thats absolutely true. But that doesn't mean ECW should have failed. They could have brought in Benoit, or someone else. It didn't HAVE to be RVD. He fucked up but how can you blame him for it?
WWE failed at making it work despite the things that happened.

[NeanderCarl]

You know, I find it hard to believe that RVD's current status is entirely his own fault. He got a nice big push there with the WWE and ECW titles, but certain people were just waiting on him to fail. They jumped on his fuck up as an excuse to de-push him.

RVD should shoulder most of the blame for even letting it happen, but all he did was accelerate the jump before he was pushed. He would have been deemed a flop regardless, because the people in Vince's ear think he "can't work". It's all politics, dem dreaded politics.

[Jeritron]

I will say, he's more than served his time. His burial now has nothing to do with what happened last summer. It's about what might happen this summer. They're burying him because they're afraid he might go to TNA. If he signs with WWE, they'll stop burying him.

He fucked up, and he lost the WWE title and the ECW title. He was suspended and buried for a good amount of time. Enough has been done in that department. But I think whats going on now has more to do with his possible future endeavors and backstage attitude regarding officials and the company he works for.

[Jeritron]

I also think a lot of it is a cheap excuse. How long can we honestly believe RVD would have held those titles had he been on best behavior?

He'd probably have dropped the WWE title before or at Summerslam anyways. As for the ECW title, I honestly doubt he would have kept that much longer either.

[TerranRich]

They're burying him because they're afraid he might go to TNA.
Well that's a pretty retarded method of keeping RVD in WWE, if it's true.

[NeanderCarl]

Well, no, if they believe he has already made up his mind and cannot be made to change it, then they won't keep him strong so that TNA gets a top WWE wrestler come the summer. They would prefer TNA to acquire a glorified jobber come the summer.

As for how long RVD's title reigns would have been regardless of the drugs bust.... the WWE title was going back to Edge or Cena sooner rather than later anyway, probably at Saturday Night's Main Event the week after he lost it. The ECW title would have stayed on him a lot longer (although I doubt he'd still have it now anyway).

[Crossrine]

I dont think we can place the entire thing on RVD's shoulders. If anything he was responsible for trying to start it up again. The thing that killed it was Vince not allowing Heyman to have complete control after the first event that aired. He made heyman think of an idea, then "Creative team" not from ecw would "correct it" and vince would then approve or veto it. Vince has even said he wants to make ECW his way and doesnt care what older fans think of it anymore. Plus even if RVD wasnt smokin up the maryjane I think they were going to give Big Show a push anyway. Plus it's Vince's fault for getting rid of damn near all of the originals. I agree RVD's incident couldnt have come at a worser time but its not all his fault.

[Londoner]

Blaming this all on RVD is just fucking ridiculous. Yes, he fucked up, but he isn't the guy who owns ECW. Those who are in control of it are the ones who should be blamed for its failure.

[Kane Knight]

Blaming RVD for the status of ECW, which Vince tried to WWE-ise, and only recently started to take seriously, is like blaming the Stewardess for a 747 going down, though the tox reports indicated the pilot was on crystal meth, crack, and X; the engine was on fire as they started up the runway and they should never have taken off, and the windows had all been simultaneously blown out for no known reason.

That doesn't make RVD's decision to be a total fucking moron any better, but it does make blaming him inCREDIBLY ridiculous.

[NeanderCarl]

Was RVD even in the wrong?

Who knew RVD smoked weed, huh? :roll:

It was common knowledge he enjoyed a sneaky joint and only a matter of time until he was caught. If WWE weren't prepared to accept that eventuality, they should never have employed him. As far as I'm concerned, wrestlers should be allowed to have a private life in which they do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't affect their job. If RVD was stoned getting into a WWE ring, he should have been fired on the spot. Otherwise, leave him be. He's a grown man, he can face his own consequences. It's not like he was caught hitting a crack pipe whilst driving.

I know there's a whole load of arguments against this, but weed isn't the end of the world. In fact, it probably helps many wrestlers deal with injuries and stress. RVD was an idiot to get caught, but not an idiot to do it in the first place.

[Londoner]

^ Yes I agree with your point that Weed probably helps more than harms wrestlers. It's just the fact that its illegal and has a bad rep with the media that people look down on it.

[NeanderCarl]

Weed is the least offensive drug out there. It's barely even illegal anymore (well, here in the UK anyway).

[Kane Knight]

Was RVD even in the wrong?

Who knew RVD smoked weed, huh? :roll:

It was common knowledge he enjoyed a sneaky joint and only a matter of time until he was caught. If WWE weren't prepared to accept that eventuality, they should never have employed him. As far as I'm concerned, wrestlers should be allowed to have a private life in which they do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't affect their job. If RVD was stoned getting into a WWE ring, he should have been fired on the spot. Otherwise, leave him be. He's a grown man, he can face his own consequences. It's not like he was caught hitting a crack pipe whilst driving.

I know there's a whole load of arguments against this, but weed isn't the end of the world. In fact, it probably helps many wrestlers deal with injuries and stress. RVD was an idiot to get caught, but not an idiot to do it in the first place.

And that would be well and good, but he chose the wrong time to get caught.

We're living in a post <s>9-11</s> Eddie Guerrero world, and like Mister Bush, Vince had to pretend to give a shit for a week or two.

Further, it wasn't just that he smokes pot. It's that he got caught. By the police. This is a big deal, and whether or not it's his "personal life" it has impact.

Nobody's blaming him for sparking up. People are blaming him for sparking up then driving, getting caught, and humiliating the WWE with their "wellness policy." You know that. You even say he's stupid for that. So I think you answered your own question: Yes, RVD was in the wrong.

Also, when RVD was first signed to WWF/E, he was actually on a Zero Tolerance policy. IT was pretty clear that they wouldn't stand for him sparking. That may have changed, but it's pretty clear WWE took more steps to deal with his drug issues than with 99% of the rest of the roster...Lip service or not.

[Kane Knight]

^ Yes I agree with your point that Weed probably helps more than harms wrestlers. It's just the fact that its illegal and has a bad rep with the media that people look down on it.

Yeah, and its effects on judgement have no bearing on it.