Helms? Chavo? Who's to blame?

[Marc the Smark]

This is kind of interesing. 6 years ago last month, WCW closed. At that time, the two guys who were feuding for the Cruiserweight title were "Sugar" Shane Helms and Chavo Guerrero. Now, 6 years later, the same two guys are fighting over the same title. In 6 years, the WWE has not advanced either guy's career. It's sad, cause their careers are just wasting away without any progress. They tried giving Chavo high profile fueds with Benoit, Eddie and Rey, but he just doesn't have the presence to successfully break out of the CW division like Rey did. Helms went over the Rock twice but really couldn't take it to the next level. So, my question, do you think Helms and Chavo have been given a "fair shake" in the WWE? Is their lack of a big push their own fault, or would you blame it on someone else? Feel free to explain.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

I don't think Chavo has "it", Helms does but hasn't been givin a real credible run at something higher than cruiser.

[KingofOldSchool]

Neither of them look like Bobby Lashley, so they are both to blame.

[Jeritron]

Helms is a cruiserweight, therefore he wrestles in the cruiserweight. I agree he should be moved up to the US title picture but realistically how long can he hang there? Helms is in a good place considering the state of the business and where his career was more than a year ago. Theres not much room for upward growth, and though the cruiserweight division isn't the best road, him moving into the US title picture is nothing more than a dead end for him anyways. Then he gets jobbed back as a cruiserweight and his momentum and gimmick are stunted and he's simply another cruiserweight who makes it onto tv once every 2 months.
Let it be.

[Funky Fly]

Helms needs to dip into the main event kool aid. Because whatever Cena and Lashley are drinking, it can only help him out.

[Blitz]

Helms needs to dip into the main event kool aid. Because whatever Cena and Lashley are drinking, it can only help him out.
Roid shakes.

[Reavant]

Helms went over the Rock twice but really couldn't take it to the next level.
HAHA he went over the rock when he was playing a damn superhero.... theres nowhere for him to go at that point

[Mr. JL]

It is a given, unless you are at least 235 pounds do not expect to get anywhere near a middle card title, let alone a Main Event title.

[M-A-G]

Is that a bad thing?

[Rammsteinmad]

I thought Chavo's push lately was cool, and was really hoping it would make him a main-eventer. It woulda helped if they let him beat Benoit at least once though.

Helms... well... he's not Batista or Lashley... so what can ya do?

[M-A-G]

Forget size. He just sort of lacks that certain "it" that prevents him from being a major threat to main eventers. I know he's really good and all but I even had a tough time buying him as someone who could beat Benoit and that's cause everyone gets to beat Benoit.

[ttetf]

Maybe if you put Helms in some kind of stable with bigger, main event guys it could give him different size opponents...although WWE isn't big on stables of more than 2 lately...

[The MAC]

they are the pinnacle of the CW Division.It is their place where they are perceived as credible. Look at Rey, he got pushed all the way to the top but no one would buy it.Chavo and Helms are in their right place.

[Kane Knight]

Let's recap the last main eventer who used to be a Cruiserweight!

"I'm a champion despite losing almost every single night! I'm a huge fucking jobber who doesn't deserve the title!"

That's beyond any Guerrero necrophilia.

They couldn't book a "successful" guy like Rey, what on earth could they do with the rest of the lot?

So let's add in a few more things here:


Cruisers and Heavier wrestlers are supposed to be divided, unless they are putting over the big guy. See: Scotty2 Hotty, Rey in WCW especially, Shannon Moore vs Lesnar, Funaki (though to be fair, Funaki jobs even to little guys)
Cruisers shouldn't really be expected to "break out" of being a cruiserweight.
Even when cruisers have "it," They don't get used.
There's nothing wrong with "still" being a cruiser.

[Mercury Bullet]

There's nothing wrong with "still" being a cruiser.

Totally agree, and instead of pushing Chavo or Helms out of the cruiserweight division to get them to something more "important", they should make the Cruiserweight Title seem more important. Then you would lift them and your gold without trying to pull another Rey.

[Jeritron]

Yea but Rey is different. Maybe he should have never won the title, but Rey is so over that he can't just waste away in the cruiserweight division. He's clearly over enough and enough of a draw to be involved in high profile fueds and storylines and be a mainstay of the uppermidcard. I don't have any problem with him becoming an IC or US champion and picking up clean victories. I just think he's so over and entertaining with all demographics of fans that he should be pushed and treated like one of the companies top stars, which he has been and will likely continue to be upon his return.

With Gregory Helms its different. I like him, he's good. But he's not Rey Mysterio.

[The One]

Nobody is to blame. Both are small guys with limited charisma. Not to mention for being small guys they don't do all those fancy flips we expect everyone under 6' to do. Helms had a commercially successful run as Hurricane, and Chavo was involved with the SmackDown 6 matches (of which he was personally my favorite). Now both are back to a comfortable place, still making good money. Why should anyone be blamed for that?

[Kane Knight]

Yea but Rey is different. Maybe he should have never won the title, but Rey is so over that he can't just waste away in the cruiserweight division.

So make the Cruiser division better.

Rey is too small a fish to sustain himself outside of Cruiser world. He's popular, he's over, but then, that doesn't matter when you cant look credible.

[Tornado]

I've always been pretty "meh" when it comes to Chavo.

[Mercury Bullet]

While I agree that Rey is more over than most, well, the rest of the cruiserweights I don't see why the cruiserweight division is such a negative thing to be associated with. The WWE has some talented cruiserweights, invest some time into making it a little more interesting.

[Anybody Thrilla]

You guys are having an interesting discussion here, and I'm not trying to shit on it, but I feel compelled to say that Gregory Helms has a really sweet theme song.

[Jeritron]

So make the Cruiser division better.

Rey is too small a fish to sustain himself outside of Cruiser world. He's popular, he's over, but then, that doesn't matter when you cant look credible.

I think he's a credible star on the midcard to upper midcard. Personally I think they should put him a popular tag team pairing again. I'm not gonna lie, I'd buy the guy as a credible US or IC champion. Especially now. Maybe thats me.

[Kane Knight]

While I agree that Rey is more over than most, well, the rest of the cruiserweights I don't see why the cruiserweight division is such a negative thing to be associated with. The WWE has some talented cruiserweights, invest some time into making it a little more interesting.

Cruiserweight's always been a bit of an "undercard" thing. Which is a shame, but let's not ignore the facts.

[Kane Knight]

I think he's a credible star on the midcard to upper midcard.

:rofl:

I'm sorry, it's just picturing a child beating up your average midcarder.

He could be the midcard answer to Scotty 2 Hotty, but...

[Jura]

You guys may disagree with me but I think in the wrestling world these days you are pretty much nothing unless you become a world champion. So being in the CW is pretty much saying you will probably not be world champion.

To fix this would to make the CW division better and the title more important but how to go about this? It's pretty much a king of jobbers title.

I only see a temporary way and that's to get a heel heavyweight to go to the CW division. Give him the title and make the cruiser-weights seem like nothing. But get the best cruiser-weights to battle him and make it so they are kicking his ass to show the best cruiser-weights are no push-overs. A David and Goliath type thing.

[Kane Knight]

How to fix the Cruiserweight Championship
By Jura J.
Grade 2


You guys may disagree with me but I think in the wrestling world these days you are pretty much nothing unless you become a world champion. So being in the CW is pretty much saying you will probably not be world champion.

To fix this would to make the CW division better and the title more important but how to go about this? It's pretty much a king of jobbers title.

I only see a temporary way and that's to get a heel heavyweight to go to the CW division. Give him the title and make the cruiser-weights seem like nothing. But get the best cruiser-weights to battle him and make it so they are kicking his ass to show the best cruiser-weights are no push-overs. A David and Goliath type thing.

[Jura]

I hope I get a gold star!

[Kane Knight]

I'd say the best way to make the CW division and title look stronger is not feed cruisers to hosses when needed. Or, say you have a cruiser who is pushed to "main event" status, you book him as a credible contender, putting over the CW title. None of this "I'm lucky I wasn't killed in that title match" shit. Save that for some pussy heel. You book him as a legit contender and you put him up against people he could feasably win against, and you sell him as a former cruiser champion, instead of a guy lucky enough to be filling in for his dead buddy.

[Jeritron]

Rey was over and being pushed accordingly prior to Eddie's death. He wasn't going to ever be a world champion or get a Royal Rumble win/WM main event push, but he was certainly out of the CW division and had moved onto the uppermidcard and was being pushed accordingly as a top star in the WWE.

I agree it was atrocious to have him jobbing to Kane and other regularly in non title matches. But I still buy him wrestling actual matches that aren't him cheating death to escape with his belt, not as a world champion but as a US champion. Perhaps he'd still have to play the underdog card slightly, but not to such an extent.

[Kane Knight]

His push pre-gurerro was still a joke.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I thought Kerwin White was entertaining as hell.

[Mercury Bullet]

I dont think the cruiserweight title and the cruiserweight division should be made up of "Main Eventers". But the title, which isn't worth the material its made of at the moment, should definately be on level with IC/US straps. Helms, Chavo, and a few others are definately worthy of that level.

[Mr. Nerfect]

There is nothing wrong with Gregory Helms or Chavo Guerrero as performers. So really they cannot be held responsible. Their placing is really based on where the WWE feels comfortable placing its cruiserweights.

The discussion as seemingly shifted into how important the Cruiserweight Division should be, and in an ideal world it would be "very". I've always been secretly hoping that while he was Champion, Gregory Helms would cut a promo where he came out and declared that being the Cruiserweight Champion made him the top guy in the business 225lbs, or under. While Rey Mysterio was World Heavyweight Champion, this would have made a nifty feud between the two. Helms as the top cruiserweight in the world, and Mysterio as the top heavyweight, whilst still technically a cruiserweight.

I disagree with the theory that small guys cannot be main event players, though. Chris Jericho and Eddie Guerrero were both former Cruiserweight Champions. Raven is a former Cruiserweight Champion. Chris Benoit is a former Light Heavyweight Champion. Shawn Michaels is a pretty small guy compared to others.

Being little shouldn't get in the way of a guy.

[Mercury Bullet]

A Helms-Rey fued while the belts were on them would have been great and ideal for bolstering cruiserweight credibility.

[Kane Knight]

I disagree with the theory that small guys cannot be main event players, though. Chris Jericho and Eddie Guerrero were both former Cruiserweight Champions. Raven is a former Cruiserweight Champion. Chris Benoit is a former Light Heavyweight Champion. Shawn Michaels is a pretty small guy compared to others.

Being little shouldn't get in the way of a guy.

Number of those guys actually thought of as "small guys:" 0.

[Xero]

I'd consider Eddie "small", as well as Jericho. Michaels is pretty much on the border (he was never booked like a small guy, but there is a significant size difference between him and other main eventers). The others, though, no.

[Jordan]

Im sure Helms would disagree as he (in the past few years) earned some of the highest merchandise of any WWE wrestler.

Chavo has been in and out, but he has held 3 titles numerous times as well as feud with Eddie, Rey, and Benoit.

They aren't a John Cena or Booker T but they have done well, I mean they still have their jobs right?

[Kane Knight]

I'd consider Eddie "small", as well as Jericho. Michaels is pretty much on the border (he was never booked like a small guy, but there is a significant size difference between him and other main eventers). The others, though, no.

Jericho is comparable in size, though not bulk, with Triple H. Michaels, too.

Eddie? Eddie was succsessful primarily as a more beefed up version of his former self, and he still looked physically large. Not "hoss" large, but a lot of people would have trouble thinking of him as a cruiser.

[Kane Knight]

Im sure Helms would disagree as he (in the past few years) earned some of the highest merchandise of any WWE wrestler.

Chavo has been in and out, but he has held 3 titles numerous times as well as feud with Eddie, Rey, and Benoit.

They aren't a John Cena or Booker T but they have done well, I mean they still have their jobs right?

Shannon Moore keeps managing to find employment, too.

[The One]

There's always work for divas though... :shifty:

[Kane Knight]

True, but he has wrestling talent.

[Russenmafia]

I believe that Helms should get more heavyweight feuds. Thought his feud with Matt Hardy last year was excellent and every match they had was entertaining. Hope he can get a decent push sometime soon.

[Kane Knight]

Helms has midcard potential at the very least. He coiuld actually bring the CW championship on part with the other midcard titles. You know, had he wrestlers more than like twice as champ./

[srnrew]

Dont forget Dean Malenko, who i feel is the greatest cruiserweight champ ever, was once WCW U.S. champ and had a great match with Benoit at Spring Stampede 97'.

[Marc the Smark]

Yep, Helms has the mic skills, the in-ring ability, and he's great. His feud with Matt last year was a starting point, and a feud with Benoit for the US belt would be money. If Rey Mysterio can be the World Heavyweight Champion, then Gregory Helms is more than qualified to be the US Champion. It's a damn shame Helms is being held back.