Savage better than Flair?

[Marc the Smark]

Somebody wrote this in another wrestling forum...

"Randy Savage was overall a better preformer in the ring then Ric Flair. He was probably a better draw to. He had more charisma and showed more psychology. Ric Flair is great, I think the guy has tons of talent and I own his DVD. But the very fact that the WWE continues to ignore Savage and everything he did, while they continue to praise Flair as the legend of all legends makes me ill to my stomach. Ric Flair came out in November of 2001 on Raw, and you could almost hear a pin drop. Not only was his confidence then in the shitter, but the fans barely cared about him. Since HHH creamed his pants for the guy, the WWE has gone out of there way to put it in everyones heads, this past half-decade that Flair is the best wrestler of all time. What a joke.

Even if Savage and Vince are on bad terms, there's no reason to rewrite history, and give the audience false information about who the best ever were."

Agree or disagree?

[Jeritron]

While I agree Savage is better than remembered for, and quickly becoming a forgotten legend, I don't neccesairly agree with that.

I do however feel that for many reasons, Savages actual in ring work in his prime is overshadowed and downplayed, while Flairs is played up. Thats mainly because of a lot of things that change fan perception, as well as their respective relationships with the company that owns both their legacies and is the only one who can promote it to the world...the WWE.

At the end of the day, on a personal level, Savage probably entertained me more. But as a fan I can't say that Savage is > Flair. Thats rash.
I do however feel that Flairs legacy is played up and Savages is severely downplayed.

[Road Warrior]

Savage also cut one of the best promo's ever right after Wrestlemaina 7, i think it was, right after he beat Flair for the belt. Savage is easily one of the top 10 preformers ever.

[Jeritron]

Nah that was Wrestlemania 8.

7 is when they had Warrior no sell like a baker's dozen of flying elbows and beat Savage. Damn, should have been called a buried alive match.

[Road Warrior]

sorry get'm mixed up once in a while

[Jeritron]

Seriously, only back then could you get away with something like the Savage/Warrior match.

You have some roided out freak star no sell another veteran top star and serious in ring talent and legend's finishing move multiple times in a row, just to get up and win.

The modern day equivalent would be Batista vs Shawn Michaels in a retirement match that ended with Batista completely no selling 8 or 9 sweet chin musics, then just getting up and hitting one Batistabomb for the win.

[Corkscrewed]

Yeah. Batista only does that to up and comers like Kennedy. :shifty:

[Kane Knight]

Savage and Flair both suck. The Gobbledy Gooker for life.

[The One]

There are no words to describe how deeply and passionately I disagree with that. Savage was good, and he is incredible under regarded as a true legend of pro wrestling, but he's no Flair. Not even close.

[Destor]

Wow. There are a few guys in the entire history that can make claim to being in Flairs league. There are fewer still than even pretend to be better than Flair. Savage doesn't even have a reasonable claim. This is about as realistic as Savage saying he's a better actor than Tom Cruise, or he's a better rapper than Eminem. It's laughable.

[Jeritron]

Now don't be rash. I agree with you that Flair is > Savage, despite my childhood favoritism. But to discredit him so vastly is kind of telling on what's happened to his career. He was pretty awesome.

[Destor]

Also, to the guy who wrote this, you clearly didn't watch them back in the day. Flair carried a company on his back, drawing millions, while Savage was undercard at best. Savage was a great performer, but to claim he's better than Flair? Yeah, no.

[The One]

Did anyone say he wasn't awesome? No. But to even put him in Flair's league is simply an act of sheer markishness and it carries no legit weight. There are like 3 maybe 4 people who could even be mentioned in the same breath as Flair...and quite simply, Savage falls VERY short of making that list.

[Destor]

Now don't be rash. I agree with you that Flair is > Savage, despite my childhood favoritism. But to discredit him so vastly is kind of telling on what's happened to his career. He was pretty awesome.No. I lived through these runs we're talking about. I haven't forgotten them. This is trying to compare shelton Benjimen to Kurt Angle 20 years from now. That's crazy talk.

[Jeritron]

Some people just don't like Flair man. I agree with you here, I'm just saying that this is a case where someones opinion dictates their views.

Personally, I find this to be similar of The Rock. The Rock is amazing, but I'm becoming more and more upset with people referring to him as superior to Austin who was the top draw of his time and carried a company from near destitude to an all time high. The Rock, as great as he was was a supporting character to Austin and broke out during Austin's untimely neck surgery when Rock was the one and only top face.


Similarly, I think some people just don't like Flair for whatever reason. I like Flair and Savage both. I would say personally I like them the same. However I realize Flairs accomplishments, role and status in this industry and would never make the claim that Savage is greater than Flair. Even if as a kid I liked Savage more.

[Kane Knight]

Wow. There are a few guys in the entire history that can make claim to being in Flairs league. There are fewer still than even pretend to be better than Flair. Savage doesn't even have a reasonable claim. This is about as realistic as Savage saying he's a better actor than Tom Cruise, or he's a better rapper than Eminem. It's laughable.

Woah, woah...Hold on there. I'd say he has a fair claim on Eminem.

[The One]

You could take any single year since 1980, and I assure you, in any one of those one years, Flair made a bigger impact than Savage made in his entire career.

[Caged Heat18]

Did anyone say he wasn't awesome? No. But to even put him in Flair's league is simply an act of sheer markishness and it carries no legit weight. There are like 3 maybe 4 people who could even be mentioned in the same breath as Flair...and quite simply, Savage falls VERY short of making that list.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think the three or four people that could be mentioned with Flair?

[Destor]

Woah, woah...Hold on there. I'd say he has a fair claim on Eminem.No kidding here, when I typed that I KNEW you'd say that. :lol:

[Jeritron]

Did anyone say he wasn't awesome? No. But to even put him in Flair's league is simply an act of sheer markishness and it carries no legit weight. There are like 3 maybe 4 people who could even be mentioned in the same breath as Flair...and quite simply, Savage falls VERY short of making that list.

I didn't say anything to support such a claim, I've even denoucned it. So why am I showing markishness? I don't agree that Savage is greater than Flair at all. I've merely stated my personal opinions from childhood, (which mean absolutley nothing), and defended Savage to some extent. However as a longtime wrestling fan, and lover of this business I can in no way rank him over Flair. I just feel however that he is sometimes underrated and his legacy is forgotten.

[Kane Knight]

Some people just don't like Flair man. I agree with you here, I'm just saying that this is a case where someones opinion dictates their views.

Personally, I find this to be similar of The Rock. The Rock is amazing, but I'm becoming more and more upset with people referring to him as superior to Austin who was the top draw of his time and carried a company from near destitude to an all time high. The Rock, as great as he was was a supporting character to Austin and broke out during Austin's untimely neck surgery when Rock was the one and only top face.


Similarly, I think some people just don't like Flair for whatever reason. I like Flair and Savage both. I would say personally I like them the same. However I realize Flairs accomplishments, role and status in this industry and would never make the claim that Savage is greater than Flair. Even if as a kid I liked Savage more.

The big difference being that there exists a real, very tangible parallel between Stone Cold Steve Austin and Rocky Mayananyaramalamadingdon. Getting irritated at someone saying that Savage>Flair is a lot more justified than at someone putting the Rock over Austin.

[Destor]

I didn't say anything to support such a claim, I've even denoucned it. So why am I showing markishness? I don't agree that Savage is greater than Flair at all. I've merely stated my personal opinions from childhood, (which mean absolutley nothing), and defended Savage to some extent. However as a longtime wrestling fan, and lover of this business I can in no way rank him over Flair. I just feel however that he is sometimes underrated and his legacy is forgotten.
His legacy being forgotten...doesn't that say something about his greatness verses Flair's?

[The One]

Just out of curiosity, who do you think the three or four people that could be mentioned with Flair?

Wrestler who historically maybe just MAYBE might be comparable to Flair; Georg Hackenschmidt, Frank Gotch, Lou Thesz, and Andre The Giant. Based on contributions of the industry, legendary status, respect amoung peers, historic significance, ability to get over outside of bookers jerking off over them, influence in evolving the style of wrestling, and other qualities.

[Jeritron]

Not completely forgotten, of course its not really forgotten. I just mean that they fail to promote it in any way. And since they're the only company who can, they don't. The WWE also pushes Flairs legacy HUGE to a whole new generation. Rightfully so.

I just think that his legacy is buried not by its ability to endure, but by the companies desire to not want to do so. So don't use that to bury his greatness when comparing it to Flair's. Theres no need to do that. I don't think many here will agree that Savage is > Flair anyways, if they do they're an idiot.

But in his defense I will say that WWE really pushes Flairs legacy while downplaying Savages. Even though, yes, Flairs is greater regardless.
But there's something at work when a generation is cheering him that didn't respect or barely care about him in December 2001.

It's a great thing. They should know about him and cheer for him, and anyone who knows anything cared before that.

[Jeritron]

I'm bowing out of this argument because I'm not even arguing. I agree 110% that Flair > Savage in legacy and legendary status.

I got drawn in by trying to stick up for Savage but at the end of the day I'm in agreement here so I'm ending it at that.

[The One]

And in all honesty, Andre's involvment in that list is 99% due to his ability to become an icon outside of the wrestling world and based on him keeping WWE strong despite not winning the title until YEARS after his prime. Let's be real, if there was no Andre, every single person here would have long since forgotten, or quite possibly never even heard the name Hogan. For those two reasons alone I put him in there...

[Jeritron]

Poor Austin. Too old for the young marks, too new for the traditionalists.

[Destor]

Not completely forgotten, of course its not really forgotten. I just mean that they fail to promote it in any way. And since they're the only company who can, they don't. The WWE also pushes Flairs legacy HUGE to a whole new generation. Rightfully so.

I just think that his legacy is buried not by its ability to endure, but by the companies desire to not want to do so. So don't use that to bury his greatness when comparing it to Flair's. Theres no need to do that. I don't think many here will agree that Savage is > Flair anyways, if they do they're an idiot.

But in his defense I will say that WWE really pushes Flairs legacy while downplaying Savages. Even though, yes, Flairs is greater regardless.
But there's something at work when a generation is cheering him that didn't respect or barely care about him in December 2001.

It's a great thing. They should know about him and cheer for him, and anyone who knows anything cared before that.
Not really. The average wrestling audience couldn't tell you who won the Main Event of Survivor Series '03 off the top of their heads, why do you expect them to remember some one from 20 years ago?

The audience needed to be re-educated (and Flair's legacy needed to be re-solidified after all that shit in WCW.) They're booking Flair they need him over. No one is working to make sure more people remember Flair than Savage. Savage's career is useless as a marketing tool, no need to promote him so he can put over some fuck in TNA...I don't see them putting over Steamboat and he's employed.

I don't think a conspiracy is in the works. It's just buisness.

[Destor]

Poor Austin. Too old for the young marks, too new for the traditionalists.Austin was just a flash in the pan man. 4 years on top does a legend's legend not make. No matter how successful those years were.

[Kane Knight]

They're not downplaying it that I've seen. downplaying doesn't involve not mentioning someone, it involves some sort of active attempt.

Savage isn't actively being promoted, which makes sense, since Flair is active with the company and Savage, last I knew, was not. That's not downplaying, unless I've missed the part where they've been saying "Flair is a legend, but that Savage is a piece of shit..."

Maybe JR's been hard at work or something.

[Jeritron]

I never said that at all man, what are you reading? I said that he's clearly been reintroduced to a new generation and something has to be working if he's over now and wasn't when he first returned.

I also said that was a GREAT thing and have no problems with it, I'm happy as hell that they are releasing Flair dvds and Horsemen sets and educating new fans. I'd just like to see it done for all the legends and not just the ones who are on good terms or still under payroll. Even if they're lesser legends.


edit: this was a response to Dez.

[Kane Knight]

Jeritron, you have to stop saying stuff that brings Destor and I in on the same side of the argument. It's not natural. You know, like incest, homosexuality, and Lita.

[Destor]

Seriously, twice in one day Jerry has brought KK and I onto the same side of an argument. That's fuck'n creepy.

[The One]

So, this entire debate has been based off a desire to see a Savage DVD?

[Destor]

I never said that at all man, what are you reading? I said that he's clearly been reintroduced to a new generation and something has to be working if he's over now and wasn't when he first returned.

I also said that was a GREAT thing and have no problems with it, I'm happy as hell that they are releasing Flair dvds and Horsemen sets and educating new fans. I'd just like to see it done for all the legends and not just the ones who are on good terms or still under payroll. Even if they're lesser legends.


edit: this was a response to Dez.You might have to wait for Savage to die then.

[Jeritron]

Austin was just a flash in the pan man. 4 years on top does a legend's legend not make. No matter how successful those years were.

Damn.

[Destor]

So, this entire debate has been based off a desire to see a Savage DVD?lol

[Kane Knight]

I never said that at all man, what are you reading? I said that he's clearly been reintroduced to a new generation and something has to be working if he's over now and wasn't when he first returned.

I also said that was a GREAT thing and have no problems with it, I'm happy as hell that they are releasing Flair dvds and Horsemen sets and educating new fans. I'd just like to see it done for all the legends and not just the ones who are on good terms or still under payroll. Even if they're lesser legends.

The primary problem is that there's more sense in pushing the guys who are currently involved with the industry, or are on good enough terms to themselves help promote it.

Would it be great if they did more legends who weren't necessarily on good terms/whatever? Yeah, but it's also harder to work with someone not on aimiable terms even when you're not prone to make them look like raving loonies.

[Jeritron]

That's the thing though, I don't know what I said that was argumentive.

[The One]

I want to see WWE release a DVD and promote the career of Arn Anderson...

...because he is arguably a bigger draw than Hulk Hogan...

See how that second part didn't work.

[Destor]

That's the thing though, I don't know what I said that was argumentive.
You can have a debate with out arguing. TOVO and I have gone a few rounds on things around here (though VERY few as we agree 99.9999999991% of the time.) Thats' why we come here ain't it? Healthy debate?

[Jeritron]

The primary problem is that there's more sense in pushing the guys who are currently involved with the industry, or are on good enough terms to themselves help promote it.

Would it be great if they did more legends who weren't necessarily on good terms/whatever? Yeah, but it's also harder to work with someone not on aimiable terms even when you're not prone to make them look like raving loonies.


This is true. Though they seem to work and promote with other wrestlers who are not in any way involved with current or future plans. They just mention them and show them as part of their legacy.

Plus Ultimate Warrior is the furthest thing from a legend, the furthest thing from a great entertainer or worker, and the furthest thing from anything deserving of any recognition fromt he company or the industry in any way shape or form. YET he gets a dvd set (regardless of its negativity, a set nonetheless) and is merchandised.

[Jeritron]

You can have a debate with out arguing. TOVO and I have gone a few rounds on things around here (though VERY few as we agree 99.9999999991% of the time.) Thats' why come here ain't it? Healthy debate?


Absolutely. I'm loving this discussion. I completely agree that Flair is the bigger legend and an active part of the company though.

But while we're at it, lets talk about how Warrior has a DVD set and merchandising and Savage doesn't...talk about personal issues getting in the way.

[Destor]

I think they were just trying to piss Warrior off tbh.

[The One]

Warrior made a bigger splash, and burnt out in a much more flashy way than Savage did. Burning out is interesting, Just ask Behind The Music producers...

[Jeritron]

All this talk makes me want to snap into a goddamn Slim Jim

[Jeritron]

Warrior made a bigger splash, and burnt out in a much more flashy way than Savage did. Burning out is interesting, Just ask Behind The Music producers...

Very true.

[The One]

Savage...had a great career...kind of fell off once Elizabeth was gone...became an announcer...got bored...went to WCW...was involved with nWo...got bored...kind of faded away...

Oh yeah and he Snapped into a lot of Slim Jims.

Not exactly as fun as Warrior's inlogical rants, holding up PPV main events, quiting/fired three times from WWE in a single decade, and being involved with one of the worst matches not only of WCW's history, but indeed one of the worst matches of any promotion anywhere. His story is sexy. It's hot. It's full of huge egos, bigger pay days, and a much more unstable (and therefore more interesting) real life person.

[The One]

That's why Warrior has a DVD and Savage doesn't.

[Jeritron]

Savage's career took a turn for the worse once Warrior caught on actually. He went from the second biggest star to the third, and was accordingly jobbed out ROYALLY to Warrior at WM7.

[Destor]

Great match though.

[Jeritron]

This is true fan support:


http://www.wrestlinggonewrong.com/video/fan_machoman.html

[Marc the Smark]

I wonder if the kid in that video was thrown in jail for the night :shifty:

[Marc the Smark]

Anyway, Ric Flair came out to the ring in November of 2001 on Raw, and you could almost hear a pin drop. Not only was his confidence then in the shitter, but the fans barely cared about him.

Since HHH creamed his pants for the guy, however, the WWE has gone out of there way to put it in everyones heads this past half-decade that Flair is the best wrestler of all time. He's certainly one of the best, but I wonder if and when Savage will also get the credit he's due.

[Jeritron]

I had heard that when Ric Flair was unhappy with Bischoff and his situation in WCW, Vince was thinking of bringing him over into the WWF. However Triple H was one of the main people who said, there's no way you can have an old timer come in and beat guys like me, Austin and Rock.

Personally, I wouldn't bring HHH into this debate in any capacity. Not only does he not deserve to be, but I highly doubt any of WWEs dealings with the legacy of Ric Flair have been Hunter's doing.

HHH just strikes me as a guy who has many faces. I think his main concern is whats best for him and his situation at that given time (in a business where thats probably the right mindset), which is why his remarks regarding Foley seem a little strange when you read the note he wrote personally to Mick Foley on the day of his retirement.
You hear the same thing from Bret and others who've worked with him over the years.

But that has little to do with this discussion and is pretty much a weak argument. Yes Ric Flair got next to no reaction which was strange, but I don't think its part of some mass conspiracy to give him bigger pops. He's simply just a legend.

[Destor]

I doubt there is any validity to the Triple H bullshit claims from Red Hot Scott. As far as Ric Flair getting a silent reception, did ou guys watch him WCW during the boom? They almost ruined his legacy. Seriously. Bischoff is why most of the boom babies cant respect Flair, he fuck the Naitch at every turn. So when he shows up in the WWE, after years of being treated like a has been (despite out performing Savage/Hogan/Luger/and the like on a regular basis,) the crowd acted as if it wasn't a big deal. Why would they do this? Because it wasn't. The last they knew that's what he was.

Dunno why the WWE would spend so much time going on about his legacy though...makes no sense...

[Jeritron]

Yea Bischoff really buried him in the eyes of new fans. He claimed he wanted him to represent counter culture of the old school, but he clearly buried him in favor of the nWo, which he ultimately did with everybody.

[Theo Dious]

Woah, woah...Hold on there. I'd say he has a fair claim on Eminem.

My DAD has a fair claim on Eminem. My dad is at least a black man.

[Kane Knight]

Eminem's not black? :?:

[Theo Dious]

If Savage had retired instead of going to WCW, and never turned into a deluded wannabe rap star, people today would weep that he had too short a career. The fact that he was anywhere close to over while dressed in bright neon suits with streamers and matching cowboy hats is a testiment to how great he was. In his prime, and used properly, he could control a crowd like a hand puppet, and he was a very entertaining commentator despite being only slightly more comprehendable than James Brown.

[Theo Dious]

Eminem's not black? :?:

Quiet, me and my people are paying him a lot of money to pass himself off as a cracker!

[Kane Knight]

Is this to get back at the white folk for not getting 40 acres and a mule?

[Theo Dious]

No, it's to get back at them for Vanilla Ice.

[Kane Knight]

Ooh. Fair Enough.

[dablackguy]

Who wants to help me spring Savage from the clank and let him loose on WWE tv?

[Theo Dious]

Is it too late to have Savage vs Khali at WM23?

[Kane Knight]

A Lethal Dose of Macho Man?

[Theo Dious]

As long as Savage brings the guy in the Slim Jim costume in his corner, I'll mark out for his return.

[The One]

Austin was just a flash in the pan man. 4 years on top does a legend's legend not make. No matter how successful those years were.

By the way, I totally disagree with this. Steve Austin is by every right and measure an legend's legend. It's easy to say that Austin was a flash in the pan, but if you think of his slow climb up the industry ladder, a ladder mind you which was still admidst a chaotic turmoil of change and confusion off of the heels of the death of terratory and the birth of national programming, he is worthy of being noted as one of the top ten most influential wrestlers in history. He was truly the first and one could argue the only wrestler to be born on the national stage, and attain the highest of glory without a national company plugging him into a machine. Plus, when it comes to just simple fact of drawing in fans, I'm sorry, but there isn't a single man on the planet who can boast Austin's drawing ability. None. Not Flair, not Hogan, not Andre, not anybody.

Steve Austin is a legend's legend. That's my opinion anyway...

[Theo Dious]

Additionally, back in the days of Hogan, there were 4 PPV's a year and a handful of SNMEs. Austin in 2001 appeared at (correct me if I'm wrong) 13 PPV's and a Raw AND Smackdown just about every week. I think it fair to say that in that year, Austin produced more product than Hogan did in 3 years. Something that needs to be taken into account when you claim that Hogan > Austin because Hogan was "on top longer."

[Jeritron]

Steve Austin is a huge legend. I don't care what anyone says, and it will be that way years from now. So what if he had 4 years on the top. It was the best 4 years on the top. He drew like an artist on speed. Seriously, the guys 4 years were worth 10 or 15 of any other legend. Not to mention he pretty much can be credited with saving his promotion, and changing the industry.

He'll also be remembered for doezens of classic moments, and many many great matches.

Plus it's not like the 4 years on the top were a flash in the pan and he or fans decided that was enough and didn't want any more. He would have been on top for years and years just like most. The only difference is he was injury ridden and peaked late/retired early. It's a shame, but can you really think of any other wrestler who made such an impact and became such a legend over so short of a time.
Austin didn't fizzle out or retire early, Austin was taken away and his legend lives on.