An idea for Cena...

[The One]

So I was thinking earlier. What if they mirrored reality a bit. Cena can stay super good guy, but suddenly have Mr. McMahon start gushing over him. Saying how with Cena's charisma and personality, they've kept the WWE strong in spite of Rock going to Hollywood, Austin retiring, Hunter having knee problems, etc. etc. Cena would in kayfabe reject McMahon's support of him. Cena would just want to go out there or the fans and whoop some ass. Maybe Cena's WWE Title match would almost begin a few matches before the Main Event, but before Cena can make his entrance, McMahon comes out and begins freaking out yelling at a producer backstage saying why would WWE's hottest comodity NOT be in the Main Event?! McMahon keeps lining up big matches for Cena so that he can show the world he's the top dog, and Cena, true to his "I'm doing it for the fans" attitude would continue to beat down opponites. JR could make comments on how people boo him because they dislike how McMahon has chosen to play favorites with him, but he still has a strong fan base of people who appreciate the fact that Cena isn't doing this for McMahon, he's doing it for the them.

I just think it would be interesting since they've never done a heel in charge who just so happens to LIKE the biggest face.

Thoughts?

[Xero]

Actually that would be an awesome way to write off the boos, make Cena a bigger name and be an awesome storyline.

I like it.

[Dorkchop]

I like. A lot. To the point where "a lot" is its own sentence

[Xero]

And that's why they won't do it. Ever. To the point where "ever" is it's own sentence.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If they do want to keep Cena a babyface, this is the way to go about it. :y:

[M-A-G]

I wouldn't mind Cena taking an extended leave of absence for a character tweak. That way he can make something of an impact upon his return. That's one way to combat staleness.

[Xero]

I wouldn't mind Cena taking an extended leave of absence for a character tweak. That way he can make something of an impact upon his return. That's one way to combat staleness.
Bring him back as the masked wrestler "Wiggan", the white policeman who acts like he's black.

[Afterlife]

I think part of the reason the goon is stale, is because he made such a fast transition from "character" to "persona". The thug/wigger/rapper thing faded out at a record pace, compared to most character gimmicks, and we've been dealing with the same, dull, frat boy persona for, what...3 years, now? Time to cool off and try something a little new, guys.

[Caged Heat18]

It's definetely a different idea, which I like. It could freshen up Cena and even McMahon, and I would like to see the WWE do it.

[Kane Knight]

I could SWEAR something like this was done before, either in WWF or WCW (It wasn't recent enough to be WWE, and I know it wasn't ECW)

[Theo Dious]

There was a point, pre-WM2000, I believe, where Vince was supporting the Rock, despite the fact that the Rock didn't want or care about his support. It was leading up to the 4-way main event, where Shane had the Big Show, Stephanie had HHH, and Linda had Foley. So Vince took the Rock against his will, basically to position himself to screw him over.

[addy2hotty]

I like this idea, and I think its one they would do as well. A reluctant corporate champ whihc eventually turns and becomes an actual corporate champ.

Actually, I;ve just pictured the first big promo about this, and it ends with a Cena FU on Vince.

Who am I kidding, it'll never happen.

[Pepsi Man]

There was a point, pre-WM2000, I believe, where Vince was supporting the Rock, despite the fact that the Rock didn't want or care about his support. It was leading up to the 4-way main event, where Shane had the Big Show, Stephanie had HHH, and Linda had Foley. So Vince took the Rock against his will, basically to position himself to screw him over.
The Rock ended up okay with McMahon. He wasn't thrilled about it, but he really wasn't against it either. McMahon was face in this scenario, until the point of the screwjob.

[The One]

Actually, if I remember correctly, McMahon and Rock never even appeared together until the actual night of Mania 2000.

[Pepsi Man]

Actually, if I remember correctly, McMahon and Rock never even appeared together until the actual night of Mania 2000.
Not as wrestler and manager, anyway, but then again, neither did Linda and the "retired" Mick Foley.

[Jeritron]

No I'm pretty sure Vince came out of his limo one night and helped the Rock win a match against Big Show to get a title shot at WM2000, since at that point it was Big Show vs Triple H and the rock said "that will absolutely suck".

Then Vince was with Rock for a couple weeks I believe, I know he was in the ring with Rock that one night at least.
Then the next week Linda introduced the 4th participant, Foley.

[addy2hotty]

I was shocked when he walked to the ring with The Rock at Mania. Mark out shocked.

[Jeritron]

I just watched Wrestlemania 2000 (I've been watching all the manias again) like a half hour ago. Those fans were not happy with what they got for their money. Nor was I.

[Pepsi Man]

No I'm pretty sure Vince came out of his limo one night and helped the Rock win a match against Big Show to get a title shot at WM2000, since at that point it was Big Show vs Triple H and the rock said "that will absolutely suck".

Then Vince was with Rock for a couple weeks I believe, I know he was in the ring with Rock that one night at least.
Then the next week Linda introduced the 4th participant, Foley.
I'm not 100% on whether he helped Rock win a match, or whether he overruled the prior decision, since it was Big Show defeating Rock, after the controversy surrounding the 2000 Royal Rumble ending. Show, of course, had help from Shane McMahon, in defeating The Rock at No Way Out (or whatever they were calling the February Pay-Per-View at that point).

[Pepsi Man]

I just watched Wrestlemania 2000 (I've been watching all the manias again) like a half hour ago. Those fans were not happy with what they got for their money. Nor was I.
They were "not happy", because a heel won.

[Jeritron]

I know for a fact Vince came out of a limo on the titantron and came down to the ring to help Rock win. It was because obviously Shane and the rest were up to their antics. Got a huge face pop. And it was at least a few weeks before Wrestlemania.

[Jeritron]

They were "not happy", because a heel won.

Nah, they were "not happy" because it was a shitty ending. Heel or no heel, that was a letdown completely. The swerve sucked, and sometimes the obvious decision is the right one. The Rock should have gone over that year. Heels have won at wrestlemania before, these fans were just generally upset with their moneys worth. The event sucked and didn't have one singles match. No second main event.

[Pepsi Man]

I know for a fact Vince came out of a limo on the titantron and came down to the ring to help Rock win. It was because obviously Shane and the rest were up to their antics. Got a huge face pop. And it was at least a few weeks before Wrestlemania.
That probably did happen, but I'm not sure if that was Vince's initial onscreen return or not (he had been off camera for a bit following his loss to Triple H, prior to coming back to "help" The Rock).

[Jeritron]

That was Vinces first on screen return since Armageddon 1999. If you still don't believe me then fine.

[Pepsi Man]

Nah, they were "not happy" because it was a shitty ending. Heel or no heel, that was a letdown completely. The swerve sucked, and sometimes the obvious decision is the right one. The Rock should have gone over that year. Heels have won at wrestlemania before, these fans were just generally upset with their moneys worth. The event sucked and didn't have one singles match. No second main event.
A heel had never walked out of WrestleMania as the main champion before that.

[Pepsi Man]

That was Vinces first on screen return since Armageddon 1999. If you still don't believe me then fine.
I'm not arguing that; I'm just not agreeing with it yet either.

[addy2hotty]

I know for a fact Vince came out of a limo on the titantron and came down to the ring to help Rock win. It was because obviously Shane and the rest were up to their antics. Got a huge face pop. And it was at least a few weeks before Wrestlemania.

Yes, you're definitely right. He laid out HHH in the backstage area before coming down to the ring. He was his first return after Steph had turned heel on.

Crowd went nuts.

[Jeritron]

I'm not arguing that; I'm just not agreeing with it yet either.

Okay :y:

[Jeritron]

A heel had never walked out of WrestleMania as the main champion before that.

But it was weak as hell. The crowd resented it. It wasn't like the year after, where Austin turned heel and walked out in a similar way. That was fine because the swerve was amazing.
They just resented this ending for SUCKING. Sometimes you don't give fans what they want, sometimes you do. I think this is a case where they should have given it. They ended up having Rock take the title at Backlash anyways... And I understand they wanted to pull the McMahon swerve. There's still no reason that swerve couldn't have been pulled with another ending that didn't involve the Wrestlemania being considered shit.

[Pepsi Man]

But it was weak as hell. The crowd resented it. It wasn't like the year after, where Austin turned heel and walked out in a similar way. That was fine because the swerve was amazing.
They just resented this ending for SUCKING. Sometimes you don't give fans what they want, sometimes you do. I think this is a case where they should have given it. They ended up having Rock take the title at Backlash anyways... And I understand they wanted to pull the McMahon swerve. There's still no reason that swerve couldn't have been pulled with another ending that didn't involve the Wrestlemania being considered shit.
You weren't supposed to hear a "happy crowd" with Triple H winning, just as you shouldn't have had Big Show won.

[addy2hotty]

But it was weak as hell. The crowd resented it. It wasn't like the year after, where Austin turned heel and walked out in a similar way. That was fine because the swerve was amazing.
They just resented this ending for SUCKING. Sometimes you don't give fans what they want, sometimes you do. I think this is a case where they should have given it. They ended up having Rock take the title at Backlash anyways... And I understand they wanted to pull the McMahon swerve. There's still no reason that swerve couldn't have been pulled with another ending that didn't involve the Wrestlemania being considered shit.

TBH, the whole main event was built up shit. They seemed to add Foley right at the last minute, just so he could main-event a Mania. It was a complete clusterfuck almost every week in the build up. The Big Show had no right being near a Mania main event, and EVERY SINGLE WEEK we had a match for the number 1 contendership.

A Trips/Rocky match would have been just fine, but instead we had all the McMahons getting in on the act, like one main event HAD to have them all involved. Foley didn't last long, and neither did Show. There was little point in either of them being there.

[Jeritron]

The whole card was a clusterfuck. The triangle ladder match and Jericho/Benoit/Angle saved that wrestlemania from being considered among the worst of the worst.

I thought 14, 15, and 17 were among the best. Although 2000 was one of the best years, it's Wrestlemania was lacking.

Foley being added wasn't a problem to me, but seemed pointless in hindsight, since they had no intentions of him winning. If this were the case, it should have been a triple threat. That way Foley could go out without being pinned and not so unceremoniously.
No Big Show. Please, it was worthless. It all centered around the McMahons like you said.

Like you said, Rock vs HHH would have been just fine. In fact it was built for months and would have been classic. IT ended up just being them anyways.
And why not have the Vince return be AT Wrestlemania. It'd garner the same response as it did on Raw, and make the swerve more shocking by far.

Add to that the fact the card didn't have ONE singles match. And no second main event. Kane vs Xpac should have been the second main event in a well built fued leading to them finally having a singles match, perhaps in a cage. But they exhausted the fued and the premise of them meeting one on one for months before.

The ending there was no excuse. It wasn't just a heel winning and swerve. People just hated it, myself included. You don't have to be a mark to think that sucks.

Heres some ideas:

The Rock vs HHH

Have it be a Triple Threat with Rock vs Foley vs HHH

Why not have Foley taken out early with a huge spot, and be taken away by paramedics and lead people to belive that was really his final moment. Have it come down to Rock vs HHH as it did, and have Vince return (for the first time) to screw Rock. Have HHH win, bell rings, Vince and Stephanie celebrate.
Cue the HBK music. The commisioner says "Whats a wrestlemania without HBK, and like I said last year Vince...rulebook! This match isn't over"
Foley comes down the aisle on the stretcher. Rock comes out and takes out McMahon and Stephanie. Foley wins and theres tourney for Backlash.


or maybe just maybe, have The Rock win the title and give the obvious ending to the match in The Rock's big year.

I have no problems with HHH winning, or a heel winning, or a swerve. It's all good if that happens, but it wasn't even a good one. You could have done the swerve and pulled another swerve on top of it. Or at least have made the match not such a clusterfuck for no reason

[Jeritron]

It actually might have been the worst PPV Main event, perhaps even worst overall PPV of that year. Which says a lot about the WWF in 2000, great year.

[Pepsi Man]

"And why not have the Vince return be AT Wrestlemania. It'd garner the same response as it did on Raw, and make the swerve more shocking by far."

There would have been no real build up to it.

[Jeritron]

Yes there would. When it happened on Raw it was the triumphant markout return of Vince. The buildup was that he had a score to settle with Stephanie and HHH. Why would it be any less built up 3 weeks later? The only difference is that at Wrestlemania it makes more sense for him to come out then and there and pull the swirve. It's more shocking and the charade of him being in the Rock's corner for a week was pointless.

[Pepsi Man]

Yes there would. When it happened on Raw it was the triumphant markout return of Vince. The buildup was that he had a score to settle with Stephanie and HHH. Why would it be any less built up 3 weeks later? The only difference is that at Wrestlemania it makes more sense for him to come out then and there and pull the swirve. It's more shocking and the charade of him being in the Rock's corner for a week was pointless.
No pre-Mania buildup anyway. Vince's return in and of itself would've been a shocker, and thus not built up. There was no real mention of Vince McMahon in the three months prior to WrestleMania. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that builds up to it, plus putting Vince in Rock's corner gave Vince an alignment and a way TO turn; otherwise it's not like he would've been turning ON The Rock, as there would have been no alliance between the two at the time.

[Jeritron]

I'm sorry, but the way it was just wasn't right. It's not like he was really turning on him anyways. It was forced and the second he got in that ring you knew he was going to hit him with a chair.

In the event he returned at mania, you would think alright he's coming to get HHH and Steph and that'd be what he was coming to do. But when he sided with them and screwed The Rock, it would have been better. Maybe it wouldn't have been him "turning on him" but he didn't really turn on him anways, so screwing him is the same idea.

[Jeritron]

WM2000 was the first thing to happen in the attitude era that was a really bad creative decision. The whole thing was a clusterfuck mess. Luckily, they rebounded that summer in a big way. Then came the who hit austin storyline which was the next big failure. Once again they rebounded. But once they fucked up the Invasion, it was like 3 strikes and you're out.

[Pepsi Man]

I'm sorry, but the way it was just wasn't right. It's not like he was really turning on him anyways. It was forced and the second he got in that ring you knew he was going to hit him with a chair.

In the event he returned at mania, you would think alright he's coming to get HHH and Steph and that'd be what he was coming to do. But when he sided with them and screwed The Rock, it would have been better. Maybe it wouldn't have been him "turning on him" but he didn't really turn on him anways, so screwing him is the same idea.
Anyone that "knew he was going to hit him with a chair" would have more likely than not realized what was going on had Vince shown up anyway. It just would've had no build to it. He might as well have not shown up at all at that rate.

Personally, I thought the whole "McMahon in every corner" was stupid, but all in all, the McMahon saga played out fine, with them even including the foreshadowing on SmackDown! I still remember Vince guaranteeing that he would fix the family problems, then saying that he would "start tonight" and booking Stephanie in her very first match, against Jacqueline for the Women's Title, which Steph won. Brilliant foreshadowing, in my opinion.

[Jeritron]

Yea and McMahon Austin the next year was built...
And the McMahon/Helmsley regime which was gold in early 2000 went to shit after WM2000.

[Pepsi Man]

Yea and McMahon Austin the next year was built...
And the McMahon/Helmsley regime which was gold in early 2000 went to shit after WM2000.
Actually, it was more built than you're suggesting the McMahon swerve in 2000 should've been. McMahon was STILL screwing around with both Rock AND Austin, down to forcing them to coexist and take on the team of The Undertaker and Kane on the Raw before WrestleMania (biggest tag team match on Raw of all time, bah gawd!!!!!!!!111111111111111, at leat that night :D), as well as making Austin's wife Debra Rock's manager.

[Jeritron]

Still wasn't much of a build man, thats just because Vince happened to be an authority figure and throwing his weight around on Raw. The Debra thing and that tag match would have nothign to do with them uniting, at the time or in hindsight. It was jsut because he was on an ego trip for the Shane storyline.
The entire swerve relied off of Vince and Austin's past that was 2 years old.
Just like the entire Vince/Stephanie/HHH swerve would have relied off of their past, that was 2 months old.

[Pepsi Man]

Still wasn't much of a build man, thats just because Vince happened to be an authority figure and throwing his weight around on Raw. The Debra thing and that tag match would have nothign to do with them uniting, at the time or in hindsight. It was jsut because he was on an ego trip for the Shane storyline.
The entire swerve relied off of Vince and Austin's past that was 2 years old.
Just like the entire Vince/Stephanie/HHH swerve would have relied off of their past, that was 2 months old.
Actually, Debra and the tag match were both done to piss both Rock AND Austin off, and that's what it has to do with Austin and McMahon uniting.

[Jeritron]

Okay, I'll believe you if you can explain to me what pissing them BOTH off had to do with secretly favoring Austin. Please explain.

And explain to me in addition to that, how pissing off two faces and being a huge dick isn't primarily to build his egotrip fued with Shane McMahon.

[Pepsi Man]

Okay, I'll believe you if you can explain to me what pissing them BOTH off had to do with secretly favoring Austin. Please explain.

And explain to me in addition to that, how pissing off two faces and being a huge dick isn't primarily to build his egotrip fued with Shane McMahon.
Explain to me how it was. What did Shane have to do with either Austin or The Rock at that point in time?

[Jeritron]

Shane's entire fued with Vince was about him being an egotistical maniac who throws his power around and respects nobody. When pissing off Austin and Rock (both faces) just because he could, he was toying with them and throwing his power around, playing into his character at a time.

Now I humored you, and explained even though I asked you first. Now explain to me how that's wrong, and answer the first question....

Actually, Debra and the tag match were both done to piss both Rock AND Austin off, and that's what it has to do with Austin and McMahon uniting.<!-- / message -->

What do the first and second part of that sentence have anything to do with eachother?

[Pepsi Man]

Shane's entire fued with Vince was about him being an egotistical maniac who throws his power around and respects nobody. When pissing off Austin and Rock (both faces) just because he could, he was toying with them and throwing his power around, playing into his character at a time.

Now I humored you, and explained even though I asked you first. Now explain to me how that's wrong, and answer the first question....



What do the first and second part of that sentence have anything to do with eachother?
With McMahon acting against Austin, it made him siding with him a swerve, despite the fact that he was also acting against The Rock. Shane's feud with Vince was actually over how Vince treated Linda, who happens to be Shane's mother, if I'm not mistaken.

[Jeritron]

With McMahon acting against Austin, it made him siding with him a swerve, despite the fact that he was also acting against The Rock. Shane's feud with Vince was actually over how Vince treated Linda, who happens to be Shane's mother, if I'm not mistaken.

It was more over how Vince was acting. They were building him up as a huge egomaniac, but yea that was the fued.

And I still don't see your line of logic. I mean, him putting Debra with Rock to piss off Austin was a master plan? Not really. Sure I guess you could say it played into the swerve, but in kayfabe not really. It just makes it make less sense, and it's pretty miniscule anyways. It entirely relied off of their 1999 history, which is fine. It was good. But this was not a build. It was perhaps a red herring. But not a good one.
The swirve worked based on them having a former history of hatred.
Just like the HHH Stephanie Vince one would have.
It's really the same exact thing.
If you're gonna say him doing a minor action to piss off both parties was part of a build then that's a huge stretch to differentiate 2 things that are virtually the same. (that being the propose wm16 and wm17 swerve)

[Pepsi Man]

It was more over how Vince was acting. They were building him up as a huge egomaniac, but yea that was the fued.

And I still don't see your line of logic. I mean, him putting Debra with Rock to piss off Austin was a master plan? Not really. Sure I guess you could say it played into the swerve, but in kayfabe not really. It just makes it make less sense, and it's pretty miniscule anyways. It entirely relied off of their 1999 history, which is fine. It was good. But this was not a build. It was perhaps a red herring. But not a good one.
The swirve worked based on them having a former history of hatred.
Just like the HHH Stephanie Vince one would have.
It's really the same exact thing.
If you're gonna say him doing a minor action to piss off both parties was part of a build then that's a huge stretch to differentiate 2 things that are virtually the same. (that being the wm16 and wm17 swerve)
I don't see your line of logic with Vince and Shane either. The situation with Linda was what pissed Shane off. You know, in which Vince had Linda drugged up. Of course Vince being an egomaniacal asshole was MENTIONED, and it always is when he's a heel, or hell, for that matter, usually when he's a face too anymore, but that doesn't mean the feud was "about" that. Makes no sense, man.

You're reading too much into my mention of assigning Debra to manage The Rock. I never implied that that was a "master plan", merely included it as part of the build.

By your logic with the Vince and Shane thing, I guess Cena and Triple H weren't fighting over the WWE Title at WrestleMania last year. Sure, that played into it, but it was about Triple H being an egotistical asshole and calling himself the "King of Kings".