Tapping out

[BigDaddyCool]

Is it really more embrassing to tap out than to get pinned? Because there are a handful of wrestlers who proudly go around saying they never tapped out, such as Stone Cold and Undertaker. Is it really that bad? What is the whole deal behind that?

Discuss.

[DAMN iNATOR]

I just think that the wrestlers themselves think that being made to submit in a match is seen as a sign of weakness by the fans, no matter how much effort is put into any given match, as opposed to being beaten by pinfall. However, the flaw in this logic is that you look much more weak if you happen to lose by count-out or intentional DQ than submission, IMHO...

[BigDaddyCool]

I just think that the wrestlers themselves think that being made to submit in a match is seen as a sign of weakness by the fans, no matter how much effort is put into any given match, as opposed to being beaten by pinfall. However, the flaw in this logic is that you look much more weak if you happen to lose by count-out or intentional DQ than submission, IMHO...

Yeah, that has always been a thought of mine as well. It is one thing to tap like a little bitch the second a sharpshooter is put on, and another thing to fight an stfu from the middle of the ring, almost break it, then get pulled back to the middle of the rings and tap.

[Kane Knight]

Submission is really worse, because you're admitting a defeat. I guess.

[BigDaddyCool]

Submission is really worse, because you're admitting a defeat. I guess.

Hmmmmmmmmm, yeah, I guess. I'm having a problem with expressing what I really want to about this topic.

[Stickman]

Laying down for 3 is pretty weak. Amature wrestling is a 1 count is it not?

[Kane Knight]

A lot of guys I know would rather be knocked out than forced to admit they lost. I feel you're kinda going for "a loss is a loss," but I'm trying to point out people don't really see it that way.

Myself, I grappled with a guy several ranks higher than me for 30 minutes in a randori I knew I would never win. And I held him off, which is great, but I mostly did that because I didn't want to quit. People dislike tapping. And nobody LIKES to lose period, but admitting you had to give up is always more painful to a competitor than a decision or count.

[Kane Knight]

I shouldn't have said always. Got a bit into the drama queening.

[DAMN iNATOR]

A lot of guys I know would rather be knocked out than forced to admit they lost. I feel you're kinda going for "a loss is a loss," but I'm trying to point out people don't really see it that way.

Yeah, if I were ever in a fight where I had to lose, I wouldn't want to have to tap.

[Kane Knight]

See, it's a man thing. BDC, are you less of a man than Daminator and a tranny?

[Theo Dious]

Kind of the point really, if you're pinned, unless you were out cold, you were fighting to the end. If you tap, then you reached a point at which you said "alright, I lose, let me up because it hurts." That's why when a face taps you always hear "AND HE HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO TAP OUT BAH GAWD GOD THE BBQ SAUCE HUMANITY!!!."

[Anybody Thrilla]

I agree with most of what people are saying here. Just think about that Austin/Hart match at Wrestlemania 13. Stone Cold was so much of a man that he REFUSED to tap, even though it was clearly in his best interest. It's all a machismo thing.

[chrisat928]

If I remember correctly, tapping out was created because guys refused to say "I quit". As saying "I quit" means adminting you lost, whereas tapping out means you are saving yourself from injury.
I'm not really sure where I heard that, but for some reason when I read BigDaddyCools post, that statement popped into my head.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Sounds about right. Back in the day, wrestlers never used to tap. The ref would just keep asking them if they quit until they said yes.

[Theo Dious]

If I remember correctly, tapping out was created because guys refused to say "I quit".

It also stems from slapping the mat being easier for a referee and the wrestler applying the hold to hear, as well as a good solid sign that can't be mistaken for, say, a man in pain yelling "oh shit."

[Theo Dious]

Sounds about right. Back in the day, wrestlers never used to tap. The ref would just keep asking them if they quit until they said yes.

It's been around a lot longer in martial-arts based sports though. In WWF/E it became popular sometime in the 90s.

[Jeritron]

Tapping out is making the conscious effort to submit.
Being pinned means you're knocked out or physically unable to get up.

So naturally tapping makes you look like more of a quitter, whereas getting pinned only makes you look like a loser. You didn't choose to lose, but you got your ass kicked. With a submission, you're throwing in the towel.

[Anybody Thrilla]

It's been around a lot longer in martial-arts based sports though. In WWF/E it became popular sometime in the 90s.

I know.

[Theo Dious]

I know.

I figured you did, was pointing that out for the less gifted among us who might have thought that Vince McMahon invented the concept.

[BigDaddyCool]

I heard that the first people to tap out, tapped out to the tazmission as they couldn't say "I quit." All they could do was tap to signal they submitted.

[Jordan]

I am sure that tap outs came to WWE with Ken Shamrock.

[Kane Knight]

It's been around a lot longer in martial-arts based sports though. In WWF/E it became popular sometime in the 90s.

It's been a practice within martial arts for a couple of centuries at least.

I am sure that tap outs came to WWE with Ken Shamrock.1

Into WWE, yes. By that point, they had already appeared in ECW. I don't know if the Tazz bit is true, because I don't know if that actually originated it, but it sure as fuck brought attention to it.

But yess, tapping makes sense, because you can tap even when you can't breathe. Unless your arms are both tied up (You can stamp your feet, but I don't think I've seen that in American wrestling).

[Disturbed316]

Stone Cold tapped out to Angle at Unforgiven 2001.

[Jordan]

Another thing interesting about tap outs. As a booker you can make feuds have a lot more heat by relying on the shame of tapping out thus making a heated rematch. I think most feuds should have about 3-4 one on one matches, if the first loss or two are by tap out its still believable the other guy could have won, you get stuck in a shitty situation you don't want your arm broken so you have to tap. I think pinfall kind of closes the curtain so to speak. You get pinned in wrestling and you lost, can't complain about that.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Another thing interesting about tap outs. As a booker you can make feuds have a lot more heat by relying on the shame of tapping out thus making a heated rematch. I think most feuds should have about 3-4 one on one matches, if the first loss or two are by tap out its still believable the other guy could have won, you get stuck in a shitty situation you don't want your arm broken so you have to tap. I think pinfall kind of closes the curtain so to speak. You get pinned in wrestling and you lost, can't complain about that.

I guess the only thing more humiliating than losing by submission would be if it happened twice consecutively in a 2-Falls-Out-Of-3 (or whatever they call it) match.

[Stickman]

k...this is pro wrestling.

[Jordan]

Yeah I know and we are talking about submissions and tap outs. Whats the sarcasm for?

[Kane Knight]

k...this is pro wrestling.

As opposed to figure skating, I suppose.

[Kane Knight]

k...this is madness.

As opposed to SPARTAAAAAAAAAAA, I suppose.

[DAMN iNATOR]

k...this is pro wrestling.

Wrong. It's a pro wrestling message board.

[Stickman]

my bad

[Jordan]

He just f'd you in the A

[Mr. Nerfect]

Another thing interesting about tap outs. As a booker you can make feuds have a lot more heat by relying on the shame of tapping out thus making a heated rematch. I think most feuds should have about 3-4 one on one matches, if the first loss or two are by tap out its still believable the other guy could have won, you get stuck in a shitty situation you don't want your arm broken so you have to tap. I think pinfall kind of closes the curtain so to speak. You get pinned in wrestling and you lost, can't complain about that.

I was going to bring up something very similar.

I remember in Ohio Valley Wrestling, CM Punk was feuding with Brent Albright. They wrestled a match, and Albright locked in his Crowbar hold. Punk tapped, and the next week he made the following (paraphrased) statement:

"Yeah, I'll admit I tapped out last week. See, Albright, I like my arm, and I don't want you to have it."

I seriously thought this was fucking brilliant. Puts over Albright as a guy who can hurt you, and can metaphorically take possession of your soul by injuring you; or can legitimately take your arm if Punk is meant to be taken literally. It puts over his opponent. Punk also saves face because he sounds smart. He knew there was no escape from the move, so he got out of town before he he got his arm broken, and couldn't live to fight another day. It's great for heel characters, because it makes them seem more concerned with their own health than putting on as great a match for the fans as possible.

Another guy who's response to submissions, in my opinion anyway, is brilliant? William Regal. In his matches with Chris Benoit, as soon as the Crippler Crossface is applied, he taps. Am I the only one who thinks this is fucking awesome? It's like they're playing a game of human chess, and the Crippler Crossface is a checkmate situation. It puts over Benoit and the Crossface, but in something I think is often overlooked because "tapping = bad," Regal actually looks like a man, because he can admit Benoit got him. Fucking brilliant.

But yeah, the points about giving up making a guy look more willing to quit have their merit. I just wish we'd see more "checkmate" situations, where a wrestler quits not because they're being made out to be a little bitch, but because they have the balls to admit the other guy's hold in impenetrable. Instead of fear and self-doubt, a submission can just show respect for the other guy.

And the next time a heel gets "You tapped out," chants, I want him to respond with a line similar to Punk's. "Yeah, idiots, I tapped out. Are you so stupid you need to keep reminding yourself? I tapped out because I get paid millions of dollars to come out here and wrestle night-in and night-out, because quite frankly, I'm good at it. I don't want to lose my livelihood because I didn't have the self-respect to give up before *wrestler's name* took my *area of the body part the submission worked* away from me. I'm sure as Hell not going to get hurt because I'm trying to impress you, morons. I am man enough to know when it was pointless. Why you people haven't ended your lives eludes me."

The end bit could just be tacked on for some extra heel heat.

[Jordan]

Thats basically what I wanted to say but better.