"Paying homage..."

[Gray]

So, when Eddie died a few wrestlers decided to honor the legacy of him, by using a number of moves like the Frogsplash and the Three Amigos. The main wrestlers who did this were Chris Benoit and Chavo Guerrero.

With Chris now gone, do you think anyone [As Michael Cole would put it] would "pay homage" to Chris Benoit? Maybe by throwing out the triple Germans, or using a diving headbutt/Crippler Crossface.

I know that given different circumstances, im sure wrestlers would be honored to take it upon themselves to "honor" Benoit in this way. But since it was under inhumane-acts would it be frowned upon?

/edit. Ahem. Corrected the moveset.

[MJD]

It would be highly unlikely. As much as I have really liked Benoit for the past 15 years I've watched wrestling. He killed his wife and child. WWE and fans should not condone anything he did by paying homage to his memory. They should perhaps dedicate a show to his wife and son.

[KayfabeMan]

I'm sure we'll see the moves done at some point, not necessarily with a mention of Benoit though. The same way they used to avoid mentioning other longstanding wrestlers [who didnt work for them or werent on good terms] who made moves famous.

[Theo Dious]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if people stopped using German suplexes for a while.

[Jeritron]

Yea, I don't see anyone adopting the crossface in the forseeable future. Anyone in this generation of wrestlers, and the generation that's coming up, and those watching wrestling now...and honestly who after that is gonna not know about this and use it.
Of course it will be used, but probably not prominently by anyone prominent.

[Theo Dious]

I also woudln't be surprised if Germans were just called as "suplexes" when they are used. Especially by JR.

[NoJabbaNoBogRoll]

Belly-To-Back Suplex is what we'll probably hear.

Much like the way the Manhattan Drop was renamed the Reverse Atomic Drop after 9-11.

[Jeritron]

Or much like they renamed the flying leg kick the dropkick after the legends of wrestling pay per view disaster

[CSL]

<font color=white>I know a guy who's planning on using the crossface for cheap heat.</font>

[Jeritron]

Tell him to enjoy the cheap heat, it's the closest thing to over he'll ever be

Seriously though, that's fucked.

[Xero]

Does Angle still use the Triple Germans?

[Jeritron]

He did when I saw him live Sunday night.

[Kane Knight]

It would be highly unlikely. As much as I have really liked Benoit for the past 15 years I've watched wrestling. He killed his wife and child. WWE and fans should not condone anything he did by paying homage to his memory. They should perhaps dedicate a show to his wife and son.

BAH GAWD MULTIPLE GERMAN SUPLEXES CONDONE MURDER!

[Theo Dious]

BAH GAWD MULTIPLE GERMAN SUPLEXES CONDONE MURDER!

ANGLE BUSTS OUT WITH MULTIPLE GERMANS! HE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE KILLED THOSE PEOPLE HIMSELF!!!

Nah seriously, I think the best reason why people will cut back on the obvious ones for a while (german suplexes, multiples, crossfaces, diving headbutts) is just to protect themselves from knee-jerk reactions like this.

[YOUR Hero]

I would think that the less said about Benoit, the better off WWE would feel. This following week, I don't think they can not say something but after that I would guess they want to put this whole thing behind them. That includes using move sets.

PS I just perma banned the poster known as CripperCrossFace. You know, to pay respects to the dead.

[Impeccable]

I also woudln't be surprised if Germans were just called as "suplexes" when they are used. Especially by JR.

John Cena Clotheslines Sandman

JR: Look at that Variation on a suplex!

[Kane Knight]

ANGLE BUSTS OUT WITH MULTIPLE GERMANS! HE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE KILLED THOSE PEOPLE HIMSELF!!!

Nah seriously, I think the best reason why people will cut back on the obvious ones for a while (german suplexes, multiples, crossfaces, diving headbutts) is just to protect themselves from knee-jerk reactions like this.

I think people are going to disassociate themselves from Benoit, period.

[BigDaddyCool]

Ok, the problem with doing anything benoit does as a tribute to benoit is that his entire move set (besides the crossface) is in tribue to someone else. His most basic moves and flying head-butt are in honor of Dynamite Kid. He didn't really start using the triple-german suplex after Owen died, and it was one of Owen's signature moves. Then there is the sharpshooter which is in tribute to all of the Harts. So, it is like people who started using the frog splash in memory of Eddie when Eddie was doing it in memory of that one guy who I always forget his name.

[Corkscrewed]

Much like the way the Manhattan Drop was renamed the Reverse Atomic Drop after 9-11.
Kinda wondered about that. I thought it was JR being retarded.

[Theo Dious]

So, it is like people who started using the frog splash in memory of Eddie when Eddie was doing it in memory of that one guy who I always forget his name.

I believe that was Jacques A Frogue.

[Kane Knight]

Kinda wondered about that. I thought it was JR being retarded.
[/color]

It was called at at points before 9-11.

[Pepsi Man]

What's with all this talk of renaming the "German Suplex"? It's not like the move was named after Benoit...

[Kane Knight]

What's with all this talk of renaming the "German Suplex"? It's not like the move was named after Benoit...

Or even that he was the only one in WWF/E/WCW/ECW who did it.

[Lux]

Oh for fucks sake, benoit didn't make the moves what they are, still using german suplexs and shit (despite the obv. crossface and maybe headbutt). if its a wrestling move its a move and if its in your arsenal then go for it, if people are that paraniod that by using a german suplex will make you kill your son and wife then they can leave wrestling

[JT]

Ok, the problem with doing anything benoit does as a tribute to benoit is that his entire move set (besides the crossface) is in tribue to someone else. His most basic moves and flying head-butt are in honor of Dynamite Kid. He didn't really start using the triple-german suplex after Owen died, and it was one of Owen's signature moves. Then there is the sharpshooter which is in tribute to all of the Harts. So, it is like people who started using the frog splash in memory of Eddie when Eddie was doing it in memory of that one guy who I always forget his name.


Without looking it up, I'm going out on a limb here andsaying his name was Art Barr.

[CSL]

<font color=white>It's Art Barr.</font>

[McLegend]

Owen used the triple German suxplexes?

[Juan]

Owen used the triple German suxplexes?

[JT]

I actually really love the Crippler Crossface. I use it all the time against friends in play matches, and would probably have been a signature move if I ever was a pro-wrestler. I hate to see it go out like it was Hitler's mustache or something.

[Hired Hitman]

Taking something out of our lives, is that what we should do when something reminds us of an event which we would rather forget? JT Kool brought up Hitler's Moustache, I prefer to refer to that moustache as the Charlie Chaplin Moustache, an actor who made it a legend, and then it gets tainted by somebody who commits an awful act. Keeping that style of moustache alive shows that we won’t glorify the culprit with acknowledging them ownership, and the same thing shouldn’t be done in this case, Chris Benoit was only one of many wrestlers who used the Flying Headbutt, Crossface and German Suplex.

[Loose Cannon]

Owen's signature move was not a German Suplex. He used a bridge from time to time, but I never saw that as his signature.

[Kane Knight]

Taking something out of our lives, is that what we should do when something reminds us of an event which we would rather forget? JT Kool brought up Hitler's Moustache, I prefer to refer to that moustache as the Charlie Chaplin Moustache, an actor who made it a legend, and then it gets tainted by somebody who commits an awful act. Keeping that style of moustache alive shows that we won’t glorify the culprit with acknowledging them ownership, and the same thing shouldn’t be done in this case, Chris Benoit was only one of many wrestlers who used the Flying Headbutt, Crossface and German Suplex.

Almost everything Hitler and the Nazis used was nicked from somewhere else, too. The Swastika, the iron cross, even the phrase Nazi comes from a stolen pretense.

But we're a reactionary culture, and a stupid one. Look at what happened Post-911. Stupid motherfuckers took the twin towers out of everything. We want to force a reclassification ogf Bogeyy smoking in Cassablanca to R. Columbine? Trench coats were overnight a sign of terrorism.

[Dorkchop]

I don't remember Owen using triple German suplexes, but he could have because it's an insignificant thing for me to remember. As for Benoit, I remember him using those at least back in 1998.

As for Angle? I'm sure he'll still use them. Impact was taped a couple of weeks ago, I think, but on tonight's Impact he did 5. We'll see what he does after the next tapings.

[Dave Youell]

I do a headbutt, but I’m going to stop doing it, I do a lot of arm work in my matched into a submission, luckily it’s not a crossface though.

[Afterlife]

It would be highly unlikely. As much as I have really liked Benoit for the past 15 years I've watched wrestling. He killed his wife and child. WWE and fans should not condone anything he did by paying homage to his memory. They should perhaps dedicate a show to his wife and son.

Oh, for crying out loud. This is getting to be the real disgrace.

The guy is a fucking legend and should be in the damn Hall of Fame. The guys that knew him best have recently come out saying he had some kind of "dark mental problem" that he'd been supressing for God knows how long. Something triggered a snap in what sounds to be incredibly close to a schizophrenic outburst, and now he's supposed to be "burning in Hell". Well, fuck you guys.

Yes, people died in a horrible, hollywood-esque scenario that may never sit well with a normal conscience, but to say that the guy's entire life is a sham because of the way it ended is fucking perposterous.

I don't give a shit if you're a fan of the guy or not, but the general reaction to this is absurd. You people insult the guy's entire existance, the entire being that he is, as if he somehow attacked you. Well, he didn't. He apparently had a psychotic episode in a place where help was not immediately accessible, and bad things happened. But you know what? Put yourself in his shoes and see it from his angle. And if you can't do that, you've got no room to judge.

[TGR]

I'll be sure to go through the mental exercise of putting myself in a killer's shoes to see why he killed his wife and kid, in an effort to think of him as less of a sick individual, real soon.

No, he does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Hall of Fame implies respectable conduct inside and outside the ring. One out of two does not count.

[JT]

This is the third time I'm saying this, so just let it sink in this time...he's not going into the Hall of Fame. He killed his family and thus triggers bad publicity for the company that owns the Hall of Fame. They as of now have wiped away all history that he existed in the company other than his championhip wins...though even mention of his win from the WMXX DVD has been removed.

He may have been a good wrestler, but it doesn't outweight the fact that he's committed terrible acts that will never sit well with the general public. Maybe him not getting in doesn't sit well with some, but just get use to it. He is NEVER going to be in the Hall of Fame.

[Afterlife]

Good Lord...

I'm not saying they should put him in NOW, nor do I suspect they would. I'm saying, had this not occurred, you all know he WOULD be there.

What I'm driving at, is that calling him a bad man is fucking stupid. If you aren't even willing to ponder what he was going through to commit such atrocities, then what value could your convicying attitude hold?

Trying to claim that a man who had a successful career, lived by the ideals of respect and lead a good life for 39.9 years was a complete and total waste of life because of a psychotic break at the home stretch is downright stupid. You choose to reject that? Then enjoy badmouthing something you don't understand like all the other children. But remember this: there is no nobility in uneducated arrogance.

[NoJabbaNoBogRoll]

Testify. :y:

[TGR]

His wife filed for divorce citing abuse before. Very few of us know how he lived. I dare say none of us do. It's equally ignorant of you to claim he lived a virtuous life on the basis of disputed hearsay.

I'll never deny his in-ring ability. Benoit was my hero (With respect to Your Hero, who is still my eHero), and I rooted for him for ten years. I'll watch old tapes of him fondly. (if I can find any of 'em..:|) But what he did in his last days is inexcusable. And I'll expect my own name in the WWE Hall of Fame before I expect to see his.

[JT]

Good Lord...

I'm not saying they should put him in NOW, nor do I suspect they would. I'm saying, had this not occurred, you all know he WOULD be there.

What I'm driving at, is that calling him a bad man is fucking stupid. If you aren't even willing to ponder what he was going through to commit such atrocities, then what value could your convicying attitude hold?

Trying to claim that a man who had a successful career, lived by the ideals of respect and lead a good life for 39.9 years was a complete and total waste of life because of a psychotic break at the home stretch is downright stupid. You choose to reject that? Then enjoy badmouthing something you don't understand like all the other children. But remember this: there is no nobility in uneducated arrogance.

Well while you are trying to make this point on all those you find "ignorant", I'm trying to shut up those who I'm considering making ignorant comments. The one's coming from those who never met him personally or knew him intimately, but watched him on television for so many years and always hearing good things about him trying to find an excuse to still like him. It's the ignorance that let people like OJ Simpson and Robert Blake go free.

You think I don't want that reason to say "Benoit was a good man, and it must have a good reason why he did what he did"? I've been watching the man on television for nearly 10 years now. My personal favorite match of all time had him in it. I've tried to ponder on what that reason could be, but in the end all I have are the facts...he killed his wife, his son, and himself.

Now then you have his fans, who were almost everyone who is a member of this forum (and 20% of the usernames on her have been in tribute to him). Some have accepted what their hero has done and has moved on from him, then you have people who are still clinging on to justify it, and try to fight for him...but show ignorance. I won't fight the people on trying to consider the reasoning behind what he did...let them. I'm just sticking with the morons who keep bringing up the Hall of Fame. "SHOULD he go in?" Does it matter...it's not the "wrestling" hall of fame. It's the "WWE" Hall of Fame. Pete Rose is in it, and I believe some other none wrestling personalities for just making brief apperences. The fact is WWE lets in who they want in, and if the terms of his death were plesent, he would have already been down on the sheet for 2008. However that's not the case, WWE is obviously seperating from him in every way, and will probably never mention him ever again in the future other than once in awhile to mention some past histories. So please, anyone who want's to mention the fucking, pointless Hall of Fame...stfu already.

[Kane Knight]

His wife filed for divorce citing abuse before. Very few of us know how he lived. I dare say none of us do. It's equally ignorant of you to claim he lived a virtuous life on the basis of disputed hearsay.

We don't know how 99% of wrestlers live. I'd just as soon judge people based on what they did in the ring, rather than based on what shit they might or might not have done.

By the way, people still loved Benoit when he was abusing his wife. The usual argument was "Who cares what he does backstage, he's awesome in ring!"

And while domestic abuse isn't as bad as killing people, nobody can argue that it's fucking sick. And if we can be "okay" with undisputed claims of abuse (Of which several were reported), there is no way we can start drawing the line here. Sick is sick. Wrong is wrong.

In other words, what he did to his wife, before ANY murdering was done, was inexcusable. And anyone who starts in on it now, but was a fan of wifebeater Benoit, is fucking pathetic.

[JT]

We don't know how 99% of wrestlers live. I'd just as soon judge people based on what they did in the ring, rather than based on what shit they might or might not have done.

By the way, people still loved Benoit when he was abusing his wife. The usual argument was "Who cares what he does backstage, he's awesome in ring!"

And while domestic abuse isn't as bad as killing people, nobody can argue that it's fucking sick. And if we can be "okay" with undisputed claims of abuse (Of which several were reported), there is no way we can start drawing the line here. Sick is sick. Wrong is wrong.

In other words, what he did to his wife, before ANY murdering was done, was inexcusable. And anyone who starts in on it now, but was a fan of wifebeater Benoit, is fucking pathetic.

When it comes to people and their entertainment heroes, they are like children from a bad home who supress dark memories. They all do bad things, and people try to quickly forget them so they can continue to like them. Whether it's another wrestler like Austin beating Debra back in 2002, or just recently Alec Baldwin leaving a message for his daughter where he threatened to beat the crap out of her...you want to forget. I personally never heard about Benoit and domestic abuse until this story happened. I may have had a different opinion on the guy otherwise.

[The Show Off]

No, he does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Hall of Fame implies respectable conduct inside and outside the ring. One out of two does not count.

That is wrong, you are wrong. The WWE Hall of Fame and any other Hall of Fame is a hall of fame for the aptitude or "fame" in the particular industry. The WWE Hall of Fame is not a place for good people, it's a place for good wrestlers, or good personalaties in wrestling...

It may just be a stupid Hall of Fame for the WWE to promote and to refer to their very best wrestlers to a higher degree, but if that's the case, the Hall of Fame means something. The WWE will not put Benoit in the Hall of Fame because he is allegedly a murderer, and that's their right. But to say that his body of work no longer exists because of the terrible acts he performed in the last 72 hours of his life, is just stupid Does it taint it? No doubt, but you can't just re-write the past, and the past says that Chris Benoit was once of the greatest wrestlers of all-time AND he was a murderer. Just because he is a murderer don't mean that he was never a wrestler, just the same as Pete Rose being a gambler doesn't eliminate the fact that he has more hits in baseball history then anyone ever.

The WWE will not put Chris Benoit in the Hall of Fame because, for all his posturing, Vince McMahon is a coward, either that or he thinks we are all idiots, which I'm fairly convinced most people are. Instead of explaining the detractors that Chris Benoit was a Hall of Fame wrestler, that during his 22 years in the buisness did nothing but grow the industry and help young talent mature, and unfortunatly killed his wife and son in an unforgivable act. The WWE opts to erase Chris Benoit. That's cowardice, the man is both a hall of fame wrestler and a murderer... No matter how great of a wrestler he was will not erase the fact that he was a mudrerer...

But the reverse is the same, no matter how many people he killed, nor how dispicable the acts of his life were, he was still and will forever in the minds of anyone that watches his old tapes be one of the greatest wrestlers that ever stepped in the ring...

Instead of explaining the WWE buries...

Much the same they do in their storylines.

[Kane Knight]

When it comes to people and their entertainment heroes, they are like children from a bad home who supress dark memories. They all do bad things, and people try to quickly forget them so they can continue to like them. Whether it's another wrestler like Austin beating Debra back in 2002, or just recently Alec Baldwin leaving a message for his daughter where he threatened to beat the crap out of her...you want to forget. I personally never heard about Benoit and domestic abuse until this story happened. I may have had a different opinion on the guy otherwise.

I know, it's still amazing that they think that abusing your wife shouldn't DQ you from a HoF slot, despite the disgusting nature. And then this happens, and suddenly people develop a sense of morals.

[TGR]

Similar to JTK, I never knew about the wifebeater Benoit until after it broke that he had killed his family (To be fair, I've followed wrestling about as much as most people follow my ass these past four years. Hell, I dont think I've sat down and watched a Smackdown! since the necrophile angle (Remember that? :D)).

For the record, I dont disagree with SCSA being DQ'd from the HoF for what he did to Debra. It bothered me when the story broke, and it bothers me now.

Not that the HoF matters much, as JTK pointed out.

Benoit was a phenomenal wrestler, and a shitty human being. Can we move on now?

[Afterlife]

Well while you are trying to make this point on all those you find "ignorant", I'm trying to shut up those who I'm considering making ignorant comments. The one's coming from those who never met him personally or knew him intimately, but watched him on television for so many years and always hearing good things about him trying to find an excuse to still like him. It's the ignorance that let people like OJ Simpson and Robert Blake go free.

You think I don't want that reason to say "Benoit was a good man, and it must have a good reason why he did what he did"? I've been watching the man on television for nearly 10 years now. My personal favorite match of all time had him in it. I've tried to ponder on what that reason could be, but in the end all I have are the facts...he killed his wife, his son, and himself.

Now then you have his fans, who were almost everyone who is a member of this forum (and 20% of the usernames on her have been in tribute to him). Some have accepted what their hero has done and has moved on from him, then you have people who are still clinging on to justify it, and try to fight for him...but show ignorance. I won't fight the people on trying to consider the reasoning behind what he did...let them. I'm just sticking with the morons who keep bringing up the Hall of Fame. "SHOULD he go in?" Does it matter...it's not the "wrestling" hall of fame. It's the "WWE" Hall of Fame. Pete Rose is in it, and I believe some other none wrestling personalities for just making brief apperences. The fact is WWE lets in who they want in, and if the terms of his death were plesent, he would have already been down on the sheet for 2008. However that's not the case, WWE is obviously seperating from him in every way, and will probably never mention him ever again in the future other than once in awhile to mention some past histories. So please, anyone who want's to mention the fucking, pointless Hall of Fame...stfu already.

First of all, if a guy slugs a chick, and she sticks around, I have no sympathy for her. Therefor, the spousal abuse argument is null and void. Secondly, seeing as how nobody has had anything bad to say about the man until those last fateful hours, no one can honestly or intelligently say that he was a bad man who led a bad life.

There is never a "good reason" why things like this happen. That's why it's called "crazy". If people are saying he had a mental problem, then it must be derived that the mental problem caused this illogical and mad scenario to take place. I mean, shit, by the logic you've thrown out, I could say that a fourth party committed all three murders and framed the guy, simply because I don't know if the commanding officer is a dirty cop or not.

However, I put my faith in the law, as I put my faith in people. And most people who know Charlie Manson will tell you he has a history of being a bad man. But the people who knew Benoit do not say such things. Fuck the Hall of Fame, and focus on my point: He did a terrible thing. But that does not make him a terrible man.

[apokalypse7]

Back on subject, because lord knows that there are a million other benoit fact threads and a million more who did it threads, It sucks because you know that MVP used the crossface and actually called it the Tribute To Benoit for quite some time. It would be interesting to see if he would ever debut the Take it To the Bank now....

[apokalypse7]

I would. It's a Great looking submissions. Damn. Dean Malenko rules!

[Kane Knight]

I'd use the Crossface if I were a wrestler and thought I could actually do it justice.

[JT]

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2193/cripplercrossfacepu3.jpg

[JT]

Yea, I was going to make a tribute thread to the move, but with so many other CB articles and the fact that it's been brought up now, I might as well just post here.

The move is a great move and hate to see it stopped because of the ban of anything Benoit related. If I was a wrestler, I would use it as a finisher. I'd probably rename it though to get away from association of Chris Benoit for awhile.

[apokalypse7]

I think that Benoit's selling of the move put IT over! he had that going full effect. I aslo loved how he could lock it on from ANYWHERE...
It felt like the Diamond Cutter, I felt like Benoit was never out of a match.
Long Live the Crossface.

[RVDmark]

IF it was a mental, possibly schizophrenic episode then I understand how he was not in his right mind. I have experienced mental problems in my own family and if it is an episode such as this then I feel sorry for him. Not that I condone his actions and I personally feel that WWE is doing well by its employees being on the road for so long and working through injuries.

[AdrianM]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if people stopped using German suplexes for a while.
one was sort of used this week in the cruiserweight triple threat...it was awesome btw