Psychology

[Dave Youell]

Just wondered what everyone thinks good ring psychology is, got this idea from the Misawa ROH thread as people were saying ROH guys have no psychology compared to WWE matches, what to you personally constitutes good psychology?

To me it’s always about doing things that make sense and trying to keep a sense of realism within a match, say if someone gets hit in the head with a sledgehammer, there’s no way in hell they should be able to kick out of anything, it wouldn’t make any sense.

With spotfests, they can look realistic as long as when a high spot is missed, they sell it for a while instead of popping straight back up and not sell anything from it.

Those are just a few examples, but what’s your view on good wrestling psychology

[Ben Rodrigues]

Two words. Bret Hart.

[Dave Youell]

Ok, how would he differ from someone like Jake the Snake or Raven, who have both been given kudos for having great psychology, yet are totally different types of wrestlers

[Watson]

Two words. Bret Hart.

My thoughts exactly when I saw the title of this thread.

[Dave Youell]

Ok, but why does everyone think he has good psychology?

One could argue that most of his matches look exactly the same and that most guys adapt to his style rather than the other way round. How does that make him good at psychology?

[Rob]

Two words. Bret Hart.

Even he had his flaws.

[Dave Youell]

Ok then, who has bad psychology?

One could argue the Ultimate Warrior did as he no sold loads of stuff, but that was part of his character and the way he was booked, he wasn’t a great worker, but did his psychology match his gimmick?

[Rob]

Bad psychology? 70% of the current WWE roster for a start. They have no idea about working to a crowds reaction. Most indy workers too. They work to get their shit in and not to actually make a crowd react and get into a story. Nobody can sell properly now either. Guys make comebacks on double powerbombs and what not. That's a fucking finish!

I watched this one indy match the other day and it might have been the most basic tag team match of all time but my God it was great. Babyfaces out wrestle heels, heels then cheat to gain momentum, double team and cheat to beat down one face, hot tag, big comeback and babyfaces win. ROH tag matches for example involve 100 flips and 100 tag moves that look cool as shit but guys not only don't sell them properly but then they end up using something simple to get the win. I don't even know where to get started on WWE examples.

[CSL]

I guess my take on psychology at the moment would simply be doing the right thing at the right time, building towards a crescendo.

[Innovator]

And not blowing your load early

[Innovator]

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[KingofOldSchool]

Here is a lost art that is my number one pet peeve when it comes to psychology.

SELL A BODY PART

If you are a heel, always use the match to work over a body part. And it helps if it's a body part the babyface uses to nail their finisher.

And for the love of God, the babyface needs to SELL IT. I don't give a fuck if your Superman John Cena. Sell the bodypart like death until you get into the locker room. Make the fans believe that you are really hurt.

[Innovator]

Here is a lost art that is my number one pet peeve when it comes to psychology.

SELL A BODY PART

If you are a heel, always use the match to work over a body part. And it helps if it's a body part the babyface uses to nail their finisher.

And for the love of God, the babyface needs to SELL IT. I don't give a fuck if your Superman John Cena. Sell the bodypart like death until you get into the locker room. Make the fans believe that you are really hurt.Example, Wrestlemania 23

HBK is working over the knee of Cena for a solid 5-6 minutes...then Cena runs out of the corner with a clothesline showing no ill effects.

[KingofOldSchool]

It's one thing to get a "second wind" but second wind's do not last very long.

I'm not saying Cena couldn't FU HBK in that case, but at least put up a struggle and favor his knee post match.

And you don't even have to hold the body part all the time, even the slightest facial expression can do just fine. After all a good facial expression can go a long way if you know how to do it.

[Loose Cannon]

you want an example of how ring pyschology pretty much made an entire match and made it a great match. Watch Wrestlemania 7, Savage vs Warrior. Watch every move (not talking just wrestling moves) that Savage does and why he does it.

[BigDaddyCool]

You know, I could write a 5 page essay on ring psychology, what makes it good, and how to tie a match together using the current story line, the current gimmicks of the workers, and any extra stipulations in the match. Come to think of it, I have, for a psychology class no less. I got an A. I ought dig it up.

[BigDaddyCool]

I read something about Cena's second wind. The problem I have with it, is he doesn't hulk up. I mean, we as wrestling fans have come to accept the baby face can be brought back to life by the crowd and hulk up thanks to Hogan and String. Cena never bothered to hulk up, he just springs up when ever he pleases, it destorys the first half of the match. If you are going to no-sell you need to do 1 of 3 things: 1) Hulk up, 2) Be undead/a monster, 3) Be Samona or Sabu.

[IC Champion]

There's alot of things that make for good ring physcology, and I could go on forever about what you should do, but the most important thing is to make sure that the fans are enjoying the match, and that your match is telling a story, and that you are building heat for your finish, either as the face or hee. If the fans arent into the match and you cant get them involved in the match, then mostl likely your match is going to suck.

Oh and for the babyface, it's been said before, SELL! If you don't sell you wont cant get sympathy, and if you cant get symphathy from the fans arent going to cheer while your getting beat down, or give half the fuck that they would when your making your coming back. Someone works over your arm, sell your arm like its numb and cant move. Rocky, Austin, HBK all sold like mutherfuckers in their matches. Babyfaces who don't sell are fucking the heels over.

[IC Champion]

I read something about Cena's second wind. The problem I have with it, is he doesn't hulk up. I mean, we as wrestling fans have come to accept the baby face can be brought back to life by the crowd and hulk up thanks to Hogan and String. Cena never bothered to hulk up, he just springs up when ever he pleases, it destorys the first half of the match. If you are going to no-sell you need to do 1 of 3 things: 1) Hulk up, 2) Be undead/a monster, 3) Be Samona or Sabu.
Agreed.

[BigDaddyCool]

BTW, point 3, I should have said island boy, not just Samonan.

[BigDaddyCool]

You know, the Richards/Thorn fued is also a prefect example of psychology through booking. Thorn is brutalizing Richards in the match, and you know Stevie has no chance, then through a craft veteteran move, he gets the upset. Thorn looks good, and stevie looks smart. So it still can go either way. Will thorn learn the errors of his ways? Will stevie be able to keep snatching victories?

[St. Jimmy]

You want psychology? 3 LETTERS:

C Z W

[Stickman]

They have to make it seem like the moves did damage. A powerbomb used to be a finisher but then some guy takes one and gets up right away. It's all about selling the moves. Like everybody stated so far.

[James Steele]

From a mark perspective: They work and sell to the point where you forget its "fake" and you get lost in the match. There aren't matches like this anymore. The last one I can really remember vividly is WrestleMania XX. I was screaming at the top of my lungs when Triple H rolled through and Benoit still had the crossface on. I was begging Trips to tap.

From a "smark" perspective: (the #1 most important thing):Selling from the time they walk through the curtain and walk back through it. The match has a story (from as simple as heel works on leg so the face can't do his finisher or it was hurt last week to they both hate each other and want to destroy each other).The match goes along with whatever the crowd is reacting to while not changing the basic story of the match. Logic is essential (as much logic as their can be in pro wrestling).

[BigDaddyCool]

One thing wrestlers need to do before stepping into the ring is asked themselves what is the point of the match, or what are their goals. Are they looking to win, are they looking to gain a championship, or the looking to defend their title, or they just trying to survive the match. Then from their look at their gimmick/character and ask how are the going to achive it so it makes sence for them. Also, they need to keep in mind the outcome and if they are going to achieve their goals. And then go about telling that story.

[Johnny Vegas]

-Basically, you need to get the crowd into it. I miss the days where a heel could just hit a signature move and the crowd would get on his ass. (The Rock, Triple H, Eddie G., etc.). People don't work the crowd into the match like they used to, especially the heels. How do you expect people to hate you if you don't "hate" them.

-Sell good. I LOVE watching a match where i know the moves seem like the deadliest things on earth.

-Pace has to be good. Maybe ONE chin lock to get the crowd pumped but THAT IS IT. The pace of the match should come from the intensity and wearing down of the wrestlers. I should not see a match where from start to finish it is slowwwww (Batista v. Khali, i know it).

-Be creative. Hell, Rocky got on the mic when he was whooping someone's ass. Sting wasn't talking for like a year and came from the rafters. Scott Steiner would act like he wanted the ref to count the pin and instead would do push-ups. Examples like that are what made me watch wrestling in the first place. TRADEMARK something people will remember you by. I can't tell you how many people on WWE's roster just suck when it comes to this. When Randy Orton sets up for the RKO & Stomps the shit out of you in a circle<<<what i'm talking about.

--It is not that damn hard, WWE. I know EVERYBODY can't be another Rock, SCSA, or whatever, but for godsakes, keep me tuned. I really think that the characters that the WWE give these guys just don't match their persona sometimes (a lot of times, actually.)

[Jura]

BTW, point 3, I should have said island boy, not just Samonan.
lol Samoan.

[loosecollector]

Ring Psychology = Jake "the Snake" Roberts

[Anybody Thrilla]

From a mark perspective: They work and sell to the point where you forget its "fake" and you get lost in the match. There aren't matches like this anymore. The last one I can really remember vividly is WrestleMania XX. I was screaming at the top of my lungs when Triple H rolled through and Benoit still had the crossface on. I was begging Trips to tap.


Honestly, Matt Hardy's been doing this consitently for quite a while now. He sells great.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Psychology, to me, is when a match is constructed with some kind of strategy, and plays as close to a sport as possible. Of course, as it is an art, you need someone on the other end to sell what you are doing.

A good ring psychologist will be able to tell you what he is doing, and why. The guys in ROH are so much better at it than the guys in the WWE. The psychology in WWE matches go about as far as "I'm getting beat down because I'm the good guy, and now I get up and make a comeback forgetting where I hurt."

Two guys in the WWE with good psychology are Mr. Kennedy and Matt Hardy. Psychology is what allowed Mr. Kennedy to carry a lot of weight in his matches with Batista. Matt Hardy has been selling like a hooker on Friday's over on SmackDown!. He may not be perfect yet, but he is still very, very good. He's becoming quite the ring general.

My idea of psychology might be a little more broad than everyone else's, though. I think that spots have a place in psychology. A cruiserweights advantage is their ability to fly. When put against a larger man, the best advantage a small guy has is flying off the top rope to add momentum and impact to his offence. That qualifies as ring psychology to me, especially if there is a set up to the moves, like working on the part of the body that is attacked with a high spot, or the previous psychology was used to keep a guy down (for example, working on the leg so that dodging will be more difficult).

I'll get a lot of shit for this, but I think a guy like Jack Evans has reasonable psychology in his matches. The guy sells like fuck. When he's in a submission hold, it looks so painful. Some people complain that it ruins the believability of the match, but I ask how is what gets done to Jack Evans doing what he is doing unbelievable? He's actually fucking doing it. I think there is a certain drawing energy behind Jack Evans getting folded back further than most in a Boston crab.

Now, a guy like Jack Evans' offence is a little more shakey, but I think there is some psychology behind it. There could be A LOT more, as he only really covers one section of it, but a guy like Jack Evans flips around like he does for one reason: It looks amazing, which excites the crowd. That's how Jack Evans earns his bookings, he does things no one else can do, and it makes him a name. In case you didn't know, Evans doesn't have the best win-loss record, so his style has believable drawbacks. His style is all about getting his name out there, and getting people invested in him. Evans' obviously uses the excitement the fans create to get his adrenaline pumping, and psyche-out his opponent.

Wrestling psychology really covers everything, but a good wrestling psychologist should be able to tell a story. That story might involve grounding an opponent, but it really shouldn't be just limited to that. What bothers me about "psychology" in the WWE is that the matches never feel organic. Each one is mechanical, and it feels like things are happening because they're needed for the sake of filling the match.

I like to compare it to making a blockbuster film and an independent film. The blockbuster's focus is not on the story, but rather the motions of getting there. It goes from point to point, not always with justification, but just because it is needed to get to the end of the movie, where everything is resolved with a shoot-out. It exists for its own sake. An independent film will often take the time to develop characters, focus on the story, and it is about the journey, and not always the destination, which should be inevitable based on what's gone on before.

That is the difference between good and bad psychology, to me.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

There are really 4 aspects of psychology IMO....
1. As the person taking damage, making the crowd believe it, and feel for you.

2. Remember damage, and continue to incorporate it into the match. IE, if you've had your leg worked over, and someone whips you into the ropes... FALL DOWN!

3. Work the crowd, do things to get them into the match. This can be from a big comeback, cheating, simply working the crowd, a big spot, etc. People complain about spots, but if they get the crowd into the match, so be it. Take the Dragon Gate 8 from Mania weekend in ROH. It's extremely spotty, but the crowd was insanely into it. I was there, it was amazing.

4. LEARN! It bugs the hell out of me how this never seems to happen in the E anymore. If two guys fight each other a lot, they should learn each other's moves. As time goes on, they should also learn reversals the other guy may use, and work out reversals for them. It pains me that no one in the WWE ever seems to do this.


Above all, I think the most important one is getting the crowd into it. You can work body parts, sell body parts, and reverse reversals to death, but if the crowd isn't into the match, you're doing something wrong.

Likewise, I agree totally with what was said about Jack Evans above. He's pretty shit when it comes to selling a body part, but the way he takes damage, the crowd gets behind him. When he finally turns things around, the crowds pop huge.

Psychology in wrestling is pretty varied... The psychology in a Batista/Cena match is going to be totally different than the psychology in a Dragon Gate match, which is totally different than the psychology in a match from NJPW... Etc, etc.

[Loose Cannon]

my biggest problem with guys like Jack Evans and all these high flying crazy moves kind of guys is that it can be so unrealistic at times. I big turn off for me is when it actually comes off like the two guys in the ring are working together to set up thier moves. I mean, yea, you have to work together in theory, but it should never come off that way to the audience.

And I really hate when a guy goes up for a top rope move and his opponent just stands thier waiting for a catch or whatever he's waiting for. You can see right through it. It's like I know wrestling is fake and all, but let's try to heighten the belief that these guys don't like each other.

It's almost like a ballet recital in the ring.

[Dave Youell]

my biggest problem with guys like Jack Evans and all these high flying crazy moves kind of guys is that it can be so unrealistic at times. I big turn off for me is when it actually comes off like the two guys in the ring are working together to set up thier moves. I mean, yea, you have to work together in theory, but it should never come off that way to the audience.

And I really hate when a guy goes up for a top rope move and his opponent just stands thier waiting for a catch or whatever he's waiting for. You can see right through it. It's like I know wrestling is fake and all, but let's try to heighten the belief that these guys don't like each other.

It's almost like a ballet recital in the ring.
You argue the same with Kane then, everytime he goes up for a clothesline off the tope.

You could also use the 'opponant out on his feet' excuse, but the other guy really has to sell it

[IC Champion]

I'm baffled that there are people who think ROH has more physcology then WWE, there are maybe one or two guys in ROH who had good physcology, and most aren't there anymore, and it's for a reason.

[Dave Youell]

I think what Alienoid was saying is that most WWE matches follow the same script, face gets a shine, gets beat up, does his comeback sequence, go home.

In ROH you have more or a back and forth match, that goes against the grain of what is expected of a normal standard WWE style match, but in general terms is more realistic as a fight, as no one guys tends to get offence for 10 minutes at a time without winning

[IC Champion]

Back and forth is all good, if you know how to work, that's the problem in ROH and why their matches are so long and boring at time, becuase they dont even have basic physcology down .

[BigDaddyCool]

3. Work the crowd, do things to get them into the match. This can be from a big comeback, cheating, simply working the crowd, a big spot, etc. People complain about spots, but if they get the crowd into the match, so be it. Take the Dragon Gate 8 from Mania weekend in ROH. It's extremely spotty, but the crowd was insanely into it. I was there, it was amazing.


No one here is comlaining about spots. :roll:

We are complaining when certain guys think they entire match can be based around spot after spot. Spots should be looked at as either turning points or the climax of a match, not just for spot sake. A spot isn't just a high spot or something involving the turn buckles. Kurt Angle going for the angle slam on Bigshow is a spot. Hogan hulking up after a massive beat down is a spot. Ken Shamrock going insane and getting mad and killing everyone is a spot.

[Dave Youell]

No one here is comlaining about spots. :roll:

We are complaining when certain guys think they entire match can be based around spot after spot. Spots should be looked at as either turning points or the climax of a match, not just for spot sake. A spot isn't just a high spot or something involving the turn buckles. Kurt Angle going for the angle slam on Bigshow is a spot. Hogan hulking up after a massive beat down is a spot. Ken Shamrock going insane and getting mad and killing everyone is a spot.
Watch that Dragongate match, it's a spot every 30 seconds and it's amazing, one of the best matches i've even seen live and a great example of how doing spot after spot can work when done right.

[Innovator]

No one here is comlaining about spots. :roll:

We are complaining when certain guys think they entire match can be based around spot after spot. Spots should be looked at as either turning points or the climax of a match, not just for spot sake. A spot isn't just a high spot or something involving the turn buckles. Kurt Angle going for the angle slam on Bigshow is a spot. Hogan hulking up after a massive beat down is a spot. Ken Shamrock going insane and getting mad and killing everyone is a spot.Also not just doing a spot, but at the right time. Al Snow talked in his shoot about guys calling 5 or 6 spots in the back before they knew what the finish was. Then they went out there and the match sucked.

Hogan was never known as a great mat wrestler, but he could work the crowd into a frenzy by pointing a finger...at the right time

[IC Champion]

Watch that Dragongate match, it's a spot every 30 seconds and it's amazing, one of the best matches i've even seen live and a great example of how doing spot after spot can work when done right.
Because small flying japs are the future of the business right, come on. I've seen some Dragongate matches, I have Do Fixer vs Blood Gereration in ROH, and it is a fucking awesome match, and I am amazed by watching it, but If I watched it every day, or was subjected to an entire card of that, with no storylines, or storytelling in either angles, or matches then it's going to get boring fast.

[Loose Cannon]

no, there's a difference between being groggy and "out of it" and then you get hit with a closeline, dropkick, etc... If a monster like Kane hits you with a chokeslam, powerslam, etc.. I expect the guy to be out of it for a little. This then byes Kane some time to go to the top rope.

But then there's guys who stand there and who you can tell are getting ready for a move. It's stupid and not logical at all.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Both Dave and IC hit what I was saying.

You CAN have a match that's nearly all spots. Some Dragongate matches are a great example. The crowd loves them. However, watching 5 or 6 matches like that in a row.. Hell, watching 2 or 3 matches like that in a row, can be overkill. It's a matter of how much the crowd is into it. If the crowd loves a crazy spot match, and pops like crazy for it, put it on the card. But if you do one match after the match, the crowd will get bored of them, especially when you have to work so hard to top the previous spot.

That's the one thing Dragongate can do amazing well. Build spots. They can make the next spot even better, without making it utterly retarded. Also, I love their silly 8 man holds and suplexs.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, I love their silly 8 man holds and suplexs.

That is what is ruining wrestling :mad: :foc: ...I wish there was an angerier face.

[IC Champion]

LOL @ BDC

[What Would Kevin Do?]

That is what is ruining wrestling :mad: :foc: ...I wish there was an angerier face.

You probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the DG comedy matches. They aren't meant to be taken seriously. I'm pretty sure when you see an 8 man arm wringer, with the referee besting all the wrestlers, it's not to be taken seriously.

When TNA does an 8 man superplex powerbomb backdrop for a spot, it's retarded.

When guys in Dragongate do their wacky shit, it's meant to be funny.

[BigDaddyCool]

You probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the DG comedy matches. They aren't meant to be taken seriously. I'm pretty sure when you see an 8 man arm wringer, with the referee besting all the wrestlers, it's not to be taken seriously.

When TNA does an 8 man superplex powerbomb backdrop for a spot, it's retarded.

When guys in Dragongate do their wacky shit, it's meant to be funny.

You probably have no idea what I'm talking about then. :mad:

Anyhow, I think we can both agree White Zombie rules.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Yes, I agree totally. White Zombie does rule.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yes, I agree totally. White Zombie does rule.

Warp Asylum is probably one of the best songs ever written.

[Kane Knight]

Sigmund Freud won his first title with a broken freakin' neck.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Yes. But really, that whole CD is amazing, and I love the intro to I Am Legend.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yes. But really, that whole CD is amazing, and I love the intro to I Am Legend.

Yes. And Make/Let them Die Slowly kinda sucks.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Soul Crusher isn't that great either from what Ive heard... Their early stuff sounds really... Meh quality wise.

[BigDaddyCool]

Soul Crusher isn't that great either from what Ive heard... Their early stuff sounds really... Meh quality wise.

I agree totally. Do you agree one of the best things they did was break up after Astrocreep? I mean Rob's stuff post White Zombie sucks in comparison. Also, I hate when people just lump it all together the way people sometime lump Misfits and Danzig together.

[The MAC]

BRET HART

He would selling an injury for months even on interviews. Just look how he takes on Kevin Nash at SS 95.. even the finish is realistic. Also the first time someone went thru the announcer table (apparently)

He works Kevin Nash's legs , bites him, rake in the eyes..loses all the fist fights.. he ties kevin nash to the fucking ring post and attacks him from different angles.

If you dont havent seen this match then you've missed out on a match that I rate way above WM12 IRONMAN MATCH.. go youtube it

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I agree totally. Do you agree one of the best things they did was break up after Astrocreep? I mean Rob's stuff post White Zombie sucks in comparison. Also, I hate when people just lump it all together the way people sometime lump Misfits and Danzig together.

You know, I'm not sure... I totally agree that Rob's stuff post Zombie sucks in comparrison, and to be honest, his last CD was just bad. So in a sense, I think them breaking up preserved White Zombie as a really good bad, who hit their stride and quit before they went down hill.

At the same time though, I wonder if White Zombie could have put a bit of a leash on Rob, keeping the monster and horror movie overtones to a acceptable level, kept it a little heavier, and put out at least one more good cd. That'd really just depend on how much influence the rest of the band had over the music though. Granted we'll never know.. Rob himself though took the horror/movie theme farther than I think White Zombie ever would of, and the quality went down because of it.

[Xero]

You probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the DG comedy matches. They aren't meant to be taken seriously. I'm pretty sure when you see an 8 man arm wringer, with the referee besting all the wrestlers, it's not to be taken seriously.

When TNA does an 8 man superplex powerbomb backdrop for a spot, it's retarded.

When guys in Dragongate do their wacky shit, it's meant to be funny.
I'm going to agree with BDC and say that that is one thing that is killing wrestling. Even with "comedy" matches, matches should NEVER so openly and obviously expose the business.

There's "haha" funny and then there's "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. Unfortunately there's a fine line there and a lot of indy wrestlers/promotions walk it and cross it too often.

And there's a HUGE difference between an over the top outside the ring gimmick and a match.

[Mr. Nerfect]

And not blowing your load early

But not too late. ;)

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm going to agree with BDC and say that that is one thing that is killing wrestling. Even with "comedy" matches, matches should NEVER so openly and obviously expose the business.

There's "haha" funny and then there's "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. Unfortunately there's a fine line there and a lot of indy wrestlers/promotions walk it and cross it too often.

And there's a HUGE difference between an over the top outside the ring gimmick and a match.

I guess I can somewhat agree with that, well the bit about "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. I think it is a bit extreme to be saying that this is killing wrestling, though.

If you think of professional wresting as a sport (and you have to if you are to take it completely seriously), then just think of comedy matches as the mascots getting on the field during half-time and mucking around in a "game" between the two.

Comedy matches should be taken on a different level to other matches. The idea isn't so much about winning and losing, as it is putting on the best show, getting the paycheck, and being the funniest so you hopefully get another booking.

What I wouldn't mind seeing, is a comedy wrestler in a promotion like Dragon Gate (where they actually have an "Open the Owarai Gate Championship," which is a comedy championship) get called out by a serious wrestler for "not taking his sport seriously." The comedy wrestler the trains to become a serious competitor, and begins a program with the serious wrestler. It would help the comedy guy get a proper foot in the business, and it would put where comedy lies in the business into perspective.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Because small flying japs are the future of the business right, come on. I've seen some Dragongate matches, I have Do Fixer vs Blood Gereration in ROH, and it is a fucking awesome match, and I am amazed by watching it, but If I watched it every day, or was subjected to an entire card of that, with no storylines, or storytelling in either angles, or matches then it's going to get boring fast.

It's not like anyone in the WWE is the future of the business, either. :p

"Small flying Japs" are quite relevant in Japan, and to their wrestling scene. Small guys get treated well over there, as does the business overall. A guy just needs to be good at what he does to get noticed. These guys are doing what they need to do, and doing it well. I don't think they should be faulted for that.

I agree with what you're saying about seeing spotty matches for an entire card maybe getting a bit tedious, but to be honest, seeing any one style of match for an entire card would bore me to shreds. It's the same with any style of wrestling. I just believe each has its place, especially in small doses.

As to your comments on Ring of Honor, I guess we're just on opposite sides of the coin on that one. Personally, I can't understand how anyone could see more psychology in the WWE than ROH. There is a lot more mat work in ROH, the matches feel more like a real sport, and while I appreciate what LC, BDC and, you, IC (that's a lot of end Cs) have said about guys telegraphing spots, very rarely do I see that in ROH. I haven't seen every show, but I do tend to seek out their better matches, and usually I see guys just putting on a high energy match. Spots are rarely telegraphed by a mile. I'm actually more likely to see that in a WWE match, because the style they work isn't used to high spot punctuation, and they are milked for all they're worth.

Some ROH matches are long, some too long for their own good, I don't think 20 minutes for a title match is a bad time, though, especially when guys like Jay Briscoe, Mark Briscoe and Bryan Danielson can get that out of guys in their sleep.

And while I'm on the topic of telegraphed and choreographed spots, I agree with what LC said about them. They do sometimes take the viewer out of the match when the guys just kind of stares at the guy and tries to break his fall. I don't see this as much in ROH as I do the WWE, though. Jeff Hardy's Whisper in the Wind is probably the most prominent offender. I think even these kind of spots have a place in wrestling, though. Yes, I said it. Not a big part, but when there are two guys trying to catch a smaller guy coming off the top, or something, I think it works. Also, if a guy is massive, it can make sense for him to try and catch a smaller opponent, only to get overwhelmed by the momentum behind him.

I think it all comes down to the wrestle, their style, the style of their opponent and even the style of the match they want to work. You have to do what clicks best, and what clicks artistically to produce the best match possible.

[Kane Knight]

I'm going to agree with BDC and say that that is one thing that is killing wrestling. Even with "comedy" matches, matches should NEVER so openly and obviously expose the business.

There's "haha" funny and then there's "this shit's obviously fake, even if it's funny" funny. Unfortunately there's a fine line there and a lot of indy wrestlers/promotions walk it and cross it too often.

And there's a HUGE difference between an over the top outside the ring gimmick and a match.

Unfortunately, like with movies, some people have a hardon for really stupid shit, and will turn a blind eye.

[hitman23]

Bret Freakin Hart!

[BigDaddyCool]

Bret Freakin Hart!

Shut the fuck up. This is about psychology or white zombie. Not just saying bret hart. Hart had decent psychology, but saying Bart Farkin' Fart doesn't prove anything. douche bag.

[Kane Knight]

Howabout Kurt FREAKIN' Angle?

[Rob]

Because small flying japs are the future of the business right, come on. I've seen some Dragongate matches, I have Do Fixer vs Blood Gereration in ROH, and it is a fucking awesome match, and I am amazed by watching it, but If I watched it every day, or was subjected to an entire card of that, with no storylines, or storytelling in either angles, or matches then it's going to get boring fast.

That match was awesome on a totally different level though.