Maybe it is because I'm an accountant...

[BigDaddyCool]

But I would love to see actaully case studies of both WCW and ECW to see all the places they went wrong before they collapsed. I know the end result is pretty much the same, and the cause was the same, incompentent management or complete lack of management.

Though while WCW was a complete cluster fuck, they needed one person in charge to take complete responcibility and know what they were doing.

While ECW, they needed a business man capible of cutting excess workers and the ability to keep Heyman in check.

But still a real indepth look would be nice because rarely do businesses fail so badly in the public eye.

[Kane Knight]

I wonder how much info is readily available and how hard it'd be to do it.

[Jordan]

I think WCW was about 80 million in debt by 2000, maybe before.

[BigDaddyCool]

I wonder how much info is readily available and how hard it'd be to do it.

No clue, ECW would be hard because something tells me it was a cash business with poor internal controls. I'm not saying they didn't keep records, I'm just saying the record keeping probably sucked.

WCW on the other hand probably kept really good records.

I mostly want to see it from an outsiders point of view because everyone accocaited with the business puts their own spin on it.

[BigDaddyCool]

I think WCW was about 80 million in debt by 2000, maybe before.

Yeah, but that doesn't say anything because there isn't anything to compare it too. What were their assets in 2000? What was their profit ratio? How much were the actaully capitalized for.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Yeah, I'm about to start studying accounting in college and I too have always been interested in seeing WCW and ECW's records.

I've always kinda wanted to see WWE's records too....see how much people like Cena are making</font>

[BigDaddyCool]

<font color=goldenrod>Yeah, I'm about to start studying accounting in college and I too have always been interested in seeing WCW and ECW's records.

I've always kinda wanted to see WWE's records too....see how much people like Cena are making</font>

I don't think you get it.

[Hanso Amore]

read Hardcore History, the "true story of ECW". A lot better look at the financials, they even have the exact amount owed to each wrestler the day they folded. Its a good read too.

[BigDaddyCool]

The problem might not even been payroll, and I'm willing to bet it wasn't. I'm not sure what the industery standard is for salary to income ratio is, but generally I would say between 3 and 4 to 1 would be good. So as long as a promotion is bring 3 to 4 times as much money as they are spending on payroll then in theory they should be ok. It is hard to say how much any one wrestler is impacting ticket sales or ppv buys because there are way too many varibles ineffect, and it is entirely possibly the biggest draw on the card is the promotion itself.

I have no clue how to test to see if an individual wrestler is actually worth his paycheck, My best guess is probably something to do with merchindise sales and maybe ratings for their paticular segments, but those won't be entirely acrurate as there are still plenty of factors involved that may or may not be relevent. But it is a start.

[BigDaddyCool]

read Hardcore History, the "true story of ECW". A lot better look at the financials, they even have the exact amount owed to each wrestler the day they folded. Its a good read too.

Is it a case study or is their still personal bullshit in their from Heyman?

[The One]

...it is entirely possibly the biggest draw on the card is the promotion itself.

I think that is one of the most truthful things ever said about the fan base of wrestling. I mean seriously, when The Rock, Austin or any other major draw leaves, it's not an instant "Well he's gone, I'm done." shift in fans. I think Rock said it best, "It's not one guy selling out arenas." Sure having those guys helps, but more than anything I'm betting people aren't tunning in on Monday nights to see Cena, they're tunning in to see a WWE product.

Rob Van Dam's name on an ECW card meant that ECW fans were coming to see Rob Van Dam. When Rob Van Dam went to WWE during the Invasion he instantly tripled his fanbase in a matter of seconds. Suddenly it was WWE fans coming to see Rob Van Dam, but it still wasn't RVD fans going to see a WWE show. With very few exceptions (mainly small time indie companies with one time appearances of big names) the fans come to see the promotion, not one specific character/wrestler.

[The One]

But as for the main topic, yeah, I've always been interested to see just how ECW's finances went so wrong. It seemed like the larger and more fans they got, the less money they had. When they were just a regional territory they never seemed to struggle that much, only after they went national and actually started doing PPVs did it seem the money problems came up. Something had to be screwy with that.

[BigDaddyCool]

But as for the main topic, yeah, I've always been interested to see just how ECW's finances went so wrong. It seemed like the larger and more fans they got, the less money they had. When they were just a regional territory they never seemed to struggle that much, only after they went national and actually started doing PPVs did it seem the money problems came up. Something had to be screwy with that.

While I have no way of proving it, I am willing to bet it was a payroll issue with them. They had a huge roster for the amount of business they were doing. And I'm willing to bet their income (no profit, income) to payroll ratio was 2 to 1 at best. Plus with no formal office, that hurt them Sure they are saving money but wrestlers aren't always the best people for running your business.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, I believe that Heyman was surrounded by ignorant yes-men, unlike Vince who is surrounded by spineless yes-men. But the end result is that they are/were both surrounded by yes men, it just so happens Vince knew a thing or 2 about running a business while Heyman either didn't how to run a business or didn't have the force of will to do what needed to be done to save the business.

[The One]

I've always loved picturing in my head official ECW Staff Meetings...probably held at some Pizza Hut with Paul, Tommy, Tazz, the Dudleys and Stevie all sitting around the table basically jerking each other's egos off while trying to sound like smart business people.

A shinny nickel for anyone who writes up some kind of parody scene of that. :D

[BigDaddyCool]

I've always loved picturing in my head official ECW Staff Meetings...probably held at some Pizza Hut with Paul, Tommy, Tazz, the Dudleys and Stevie all sitting around the table basically jerking each other's egos off while trying to sound like smart business people.

A shinny nickel for anyone who writes up some kind of parody scene of that. :D

Naw, it wasn't at a pizza hut, it was at one of those pizza pubs that pours a ton of beer in the crust, it has arcade games from the mid 80's but only 2 work, and a 3rd only the second player works, and the other 5 are either blurry or off.

[IC Champion]

It is hard to say how much any one wrestler is impacting ticket sales or ppv buys because there are way too many varibles ineffect, and it is entirely possibly the biggest draw on the card is the promotion itself.

WWF used to sell show out weeks in advance during the 99-01 era without even having a card up. Try and tell me anyone person was drawing those numbers back then.

[Hanso Amore]

Is it a case study or is their still personal bullshit in their from Heyman?


It is written by an independent writer, and outside of the foreword by Shane Douglas (which was let shoot style than I thought it would be) is very neutral. if anything the book is down on Heyman, as it places all the blame on his attempts to grow and live above ECWs means.

In the end, it sadly was payroll that did him in. He just couldn't afford to pay what he promised, meaning he paid about half what he owed the staff, the other half what he owed for overhead, and just got behind. It is a very fair look at it. RVd is still owed 75000 dollars from ECW:) Nice.

Payroll somewhat killed WCW. They were paying out more than they took in just like ECW. The years of overpriced and guaranteed contracts had guys that weren't on TV for years raking in more money than even top guys could have. They were throwing it around.

[PapaGeorgio]

As an accountant I'd for sure read those case studies. Would be more interesting then some I had to read. Also I have learned here today in this topic people don't know much about accounting.

[Kane Knight]

I have no clue how to test to see if an individual wrestler is actually worth his paycheck, My best guess is probably something to do with merchindise sales and maybe ratings for their paticular segments, but those won't be entirely acrurate as there are still plenty of factors involved that may or may not be relevent. But it is a start.

I'd say that this is probably the least inaccurate method to measure. That's not to say it's a good way, so much as the besst only inasmuch as it's the least worst.

[BigDaddyCool]

I'd say that this is probably the least inaccurate method to measure. That's not to say it's a good way, so much as the besst only inasmuch as it's the least worst.

Yeah, I'm hesitant to use that way because of the following reasons:

1) I know of at least one case where Chris Jericho's girl friend bought him an action figure of himself (and someone else whose name escapes me) in one of those double action figure sets. Ir rang up as a Hulk Hogan action figurer thus adding to Hogan's merch sales. Now that is only one case, but that is enough for a seed of doubt.

2) Rating do not equal drawling by a particular star. Rating can be effected by a number of things. Now more accurately, what should be studied is change in ratings per segment. For example when Nitro announced that Mick Foley would be winning the title on raw and rating shot up, that increase was for Mick Foley.

3) Another reason ratings do not equal drawing ability of any one star is because ratings have a lot to do with last week or previous shows. It doesn't matter how hot tonights show is if the past few weeks have been piss poor and drove fans way.

4) The hardest thing about tracking drawing ability poor booking can hurt drawing ability. Imagine if Booker T who has worked through bad booking would finally get great booking, he could turn into an all time great. But it is hard to tell.

Plus again, with WCW i don't believe it was the payroll for the roster. It was bad booking, bad money management, wasting it on extras that weren't wrestling, and lack of any hierarchy. But I would love to see some hard number to prove it. I have read death of WCW a few times, but R. D. Reynolds and Bryan Alvarez couldn't read a financial statement to save their lives.

[BigDaddyCool]

As an accountant I'd for sure read those case studies. Would be more interesting then some I had to read. Also I have learned here today in this topic people don't know much about accounting.

Shut up, it has nothing to do with just being an accountant. It is more a business thing in general. And yes people that aren't in accounting don't know shit about accounting.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, I'm hesitant to use that way because of the following reasons:

1) I know of at least one case where Chris Jericho's girl friend bought him an action figure of himself (and someone else whose name escapes me) in one of those double action figure sets. Ir rang up as a Hulk Hogan action figurer thus adding to Hogan's merch sales. Now that is only one case, but that is enough for a seed of doubt.

2) Rating do not equal drawling by a particular star. Rating can be effected by a number of things. Now more accurately, what should be studied is change in ratings per segment. For example when Nitro announced that Mick Foley would be winning the title on raw and rating shot up, that increase was for Mick Foley.

3) Another reason ratings do not equal drawing ability of any one star is because ratings have a lot to do with last week or previous shows. It doesn't matter how hot tonights show is if the past few weeks have been piss poor and drove fans way.

4) The hardest thing about tracking drawing ability poor booking can hurt drawing ability. Imagine if Booker T who has worked through bad booking would finally get great booking, he could turn into an all time great. But it is hard to tell.

Plus again, with WCW i don't believe it was the payroll for the roster. It was bad booking, bad money management, wasting it on extras that weren't wrestling, and lack of any hierarchy. But I would love to see some hard number to prove it. I have read death of WCW a few times, but R. D. Reynolds and Bryan Alvarez couldn't read a financial statement to save their lives.

1. Merch sales of action figures are probably poorly tracked as few stores actually used PoS marketing, and I believe most manufacturers only deal in the bulk of it. So you might as well count action figures towards the Hogans and such, for all the difference it'll make.

2. Or the title change. It's possible that, in part, and the specific act were both part of it. The question I have is, do people keep the Quarter Hour ratings? I don't think Nielsen MEdia Research does.

One thing I'd like to point out is that while the ratings might not be indicative, longterm trends may appear. For example, for two years, Triple H's QHs would tank compared to the show. It's a good example, because he's somebody who's on TV whether you like him or not, and we were able to watch him for a long time in that case. Considering the people involved, even the feud itself, would be an important factor. MAybe when these two guys were on TV, ratings spiked, but neither of them along did anything.

3. Which is why QHs are so important. They're not the be-all, end all, but they give you a better level of fine tuning. If people are tuning out for a specific time, it's an indication. It's not perfect, and I agree with your "You're only as good as last week's show" assessment, but even within that, we can see trends.

4. I would factor this into the worth of the star to the company, though. If they're going to pay say, Booker T, a huge salary and then not use him, then they're wasting money just as much as if they had given Shannon Moore a seven figure salary.

[BigDaddyCool]

1. Merch sales of action figures are probably poorly tracked as few stores actually used PoS marketing, and I believe most manufacturers only deal in the bulk of it. So you might as well count action figures towards the Hogans and such, for all the difference it'll make.

2. Or the title change. It's possible that, in part, and the specific act were both part of it. The question I have is, do people keep the Quarter Hour ratings? I don't think Nielsen MEdia Research does.

One thing I'd like to point out is that while the ratings might not be indicative, longterm trends may appear. For example, for two years, Triple H's QHs would tank compared to the show. It's a good example, because he's somebody who's on TV whether you like him or not, and we were able to watch him for a long time in that case. Considering the people involved, even the feud itself, would be an important factor. MAybe when these two guys were on TV, ratings spiked, but neither of them along did anything.

3. Which is why QHs are so important. They're not the be-all, end all, but they give you a better level of fine tuning. If people are tuning out for a specific time, it's an indication. It's not perfect, and I agree with your "You're only as good as last week's show" assessment, but even within that, we can see trends.

4. I would factor this into the worth of the star to the company, though. If they're going to pay say, Booker T, a huge salary and then not use him, then they're wasting money just as much as if they had given Shannon Moore a seven figure salary.

Now if you are truely in the wrestling business, I pretty sure you can tell if someone is worth their pay, I'm trying to looks for ways outsiders can tell, but I don't think there is any one good way to tell for individual wrestlers.

[Kane Knight]

I'm pretty sure their way of determining worth and ours might be different, anyway.