What's worse? (Raw spoilers)

[Maluco]

What's worse in today's WWE, the booking, or the characters?

Just looking at the Raw results...I am so tired of the constant, stupid booking. Maybe some of you will differ with me, and that will be interesting to hear, but I can't stand it personally.

I am NOT a big Jeff Hardy fan, but to come off the back of a win over Umaga, becoming the new IC champion (lets not get in to the booking of the titles and what they mean), here is a chance to make a strong upper carder. What do they do? Put hom over the next Raw, yes? NO, they have him lose in a 5 minute squash.

AND the biggest angle in the WWE at the minute ends with Hornswaggle. Its a TERRIBLE waste of a big opportunity for any wrestler on the brands. For the next month, they will be short Main Eventers, and this was the chance to throw someone else in the mix....and it was completely wasted.

Triple H...has already started to irritate me. King Booker (although not mattering so much now), was embarrassed in 8 minutes on PPV, after over a year of character development. Umaga, again, built up over countless others...destroyed by "The Game", and just to put the cherry on the cake this week. Remember Shelton beat HHH before? Does not matter now, that was cancelled out this week on Raw...terrible.

...and the characters...Shelton dies his hair blonde....this is meant to be a character change? I don't have a clue!

Kennedy, I like him...but all he does is repeat his name, lets be honest here.

Masters, Shelton, Haas, Matt Hardy (took away the whole V1 thing), Mike Knox (lol) each more bland than the next.

Even the main event wrestlers...Cena is not a rapper anymore, Orton kicks people in the head, and Batista dances in his entrance....it is NOT stunning TV.

I heard SCSA made a speech at SummerSlam asking the wrestlers to do what he did, make your own character....maybe another attitude era is needed, I really don't know anymore.

Which do you think is worse? Is it a mixture of both? Do you see neither as a massive problem? Discuss.

[Juan]

Is there anyone or anything in WWE you DO like?

[McLegend]

I like the Cena/Orton angle

[Maluco]

Is there anyone or anything in WWE you DO like?

Honestly? When I look back, even at old attitude shows...there is very little I do like. I have not watched (apart from a few brief glances" in a very long time. I do, however, like ECW. I like Burke and Punk, at least they have characters and do something a little different in the ring.

Even if I don't like much, I can still see opinions, and discuss things, get won over by other's points maybe??? Do you not have anything, or what?

[Maluco]

I like the Cena/Orton angle


Its definately one of the better things. i don't love it, and am not invested in either character, but at least its showing a little emotion. Its very hard to get invested in any angles or characters on TV at the moment.

[Destor]

I hate the WWE thread 1,000,234,123.

Whoop.

[Destor]

I'll get out of the way so more of these one of a kind statements can pour in.

[Mr. Nerfect]

So people aren't allowed to voice their concerns anymore? Come on, Destor, the product is shit and we all know it. People have every right to be outraged when an angle that has gone on for weeks, and been presented as a major storyline, ends with Hornswoggle as the punchline.

I disagree about some of the "character" criticisms. Shelton Benjamin dying his hair looks ridiculous, but I doubt it's meant to be a change of character, just a slight image tweak. I've been enjoying Matt Hardy, and Mr. Kennedy's character is not as well developed as it should be, but the booking is far worse. It's the writing that is letting the WWE down now.

[The Optimist]

Yeah. It's sort of sad that people can't express how poor of a time the WWE is having without being flamed.

The writing's a part of what problem there is. It's also partly direction. I mean, the writers can only do so much when they have to have Khali forced into the show for at least ten to fifteen minutes a night. Injuries and suspensions have been numerous lately too, which makes things a thousand times harder. Basically the writing is already not great, then is gimped by several circumstances outside their control, including some idiotic decisions close to the top.

I hope one of the main reasons I can't watch alot of WWE programming has been discussed. They don't know how to write matches for shit. Matt Hardy, Ken Kennedy, Will Regal. Other than matches involving those guys every match just seems like a set of moves mixed together. There's often no difference between strikers and technical wrestlers, wrestlers that have been in the buisness for a dozen or more years still don't seem to know how to get out of school-boys or to grab for the ropes, tag team matches don't show any chemistry. Which is why I so often look up Japansese matches that actually have ring psychology for a good twenty minutes, as opposed to four minute clusterfucks.

Other than that, alot of good talent and natural charisma within the WWE that I enjoy out of principal, including Shelton Benjamin with whatever haircut he has.

[Dave Youell]

WOAH!!!!

What the hell, Alienoid, you should be very ashamed of yourself and The Optimist. You're part of an elite group that can see the light in some decisions. I will try my best:


I am NOT a big Jeff Hardy fan, but to come off the back of a win over Umaga, becoming the new IC champion (lets not get in to the booking of the titles and what they mean), here is a chance to make a strong upper carder. What do they do? Put him over the next Raw, yes? NO, they have him lose in a 5 minute squash.

This was to make Kahli look strong for the PPV, nothing against Hardy, a loss to Kahli is hardly going to effect his pops, the guy is over like rover, so if you were going to have Kahli take a win over anyone on the RAW roster, I’d use Jeff, he’s over so Kahli in turn will get some heat for the beat down. And Jeff will be just as over next week. Jeff also doesn’t have a match at the PPV so it’s not like it’s affected him at all really.

AND the biggest angle in the WWE at the minute ends with Hornswaggle. Its a TERRIBLE waste of a big opportunity for any wrestler on the brands. For the next month, they will be short Main Eventers, and this was the chance to throw someone else in the mix....and it was completely wasted.

You can blame Mr Kennedy for this one, it was obvious that they had a plan for it, this could just be a way to stall and they could pick a different person as the father, but they had a week to come up with something, the PPV was all sorted so they knew who was going in all the spots, so no one needed a rub for that. They will either just have a month of comedy skits with a midget or we will learn who the kid is in a few weeks time, it’s not really that big a deal is it, it was and still is a stupid angle, so expect a stupid outcome

Triple H...has already started to irritate me. King Booker (although not mattering so much now), was embarrassed in 8 minutes on PPV, after over a year of character development. Umaga, again, built up over countless others...destroyed by "The Game", and just to put the cherry on the cake this week. Remember Shelton beat HHH before? Does not matter now, that was cancelled out this week on Raw...terrible.

It was obvious whoever a guy faces on his return that they are going to do a job, I don’t see anyone bitching about Chavo jobbing to Rey. Booker has had a heck of a run with the King stuff, he’d been put over a lot since coming to Raw to make him look strong. It was a throw away match as Summerslam and Booker is hardly known as being a bad ass heel right now is/was he? In a straight one on one match with no cheating, he should NEVER win with someone who is at the same level as him, he’s a dick for a heel, he needs to cheat etc to get a win, in this scenario it was all about trips. Plus if he came back on TV I doubt anyone would care/remember him losing as he has such a great gimmick to carry past the win/loss record. He fits into the same category as Jeff Hardy for me, he has a connection with the fans which means they can job and not lose heat, they are a valuable resource and can and have been used correctly.

Oh and Shelton jobbing? Who the hell cares, he’s been a tag guy for a while, he’s having single’s matches to just keep him on TV until Haas gets back, if I were him I’d just be thankful I’m still getting TV time

...and the characters...Shelton dies his hair blonde....this is meant to be a character change? I don't have a clue!

It’s done to get yourself recognised, it’s called gimmicks, Booker has a crown and a cape, Jeff has 8 different colours in his hair, it’s cone to get you remembered, so if a casual fan watches, he might not know Shelton’s name, but he can remember the black guy with blonde hair, because it looked unique

Kennedy, I like him...but all he does is repeat his name, lets be honest here.

Again, it’s a gimmick, gets you remembered, I agree that his work rate isn’t what it was before his first injury over a year and a half ago, but his overall mike work and heat generation is very good.

Masters, Shelton, Haas, Matt Hardy (took away the whole V1 thing), Mike Knox (lol) each more bland than the next.


Masters: Come on leaps and bounds since he started, brought in waaaay too early, but since then has managed to get his finisher really over and has his unique Masterlock challenges

Shelton/Hass: I can’t disagree, they are better in tags as when they are single’s, frankly, they suck, lack of charisma

Matt Hardy: Are you fucking kidding me? He’s one of the hottest things on Smackdown right now, he’s awesome in the ring and is a really good story teller, his feud with MVP has been the best thing on TV this year IMO. His V1 stuff as a heel was his most entertaining, but as a face there’s only so much you can do to get heat. Considering the limited mic time he gets, most of his character is based on what he does in the ring, which is fucking awesome stuff.

Even the main event wrestlers...Cena is not a rapper anymore, Orton kicks people in the head, and Batista dances in his entrance....it is NOT stunning TV.

It’s not 1999 anymore, no matter how much everyone wants another Rock and another Austin it’s not going to happen, Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior were different as well in the previous boom period, it’s obvious that for the past 7 years wrestling generally hasn’t been as hot, it’s nothing new, if you don’t like the TV, don’t watch it. If you want to see guys coming in on zamboni’s and beating up the boss, watch some tapes. Stop living in the past.

I heard SCSA made a speech at SummerSlam asking the wrestlers to do what he did, make your own character....maybe another attitude era is needed, I really don't know anymore.

No, another attitude era isn’t needed, something new is needed, but not going back to the well. In all honesty, as I’ve said in previous posts, I think the next 2 years could see a turnaround, if the government get tight on them, it means less big roid freaks and more guys who can work and talk (i.e smaller guys with more talent, ala 93 with the Bret/Michaels era) Sure the ratings will be lower, but it will be better for us real wrestling fans. Things are going to get worse before they get better, make no mistake about it, there will be more guys who leave and others that need to step up to the plate, it’s going to be a lot of change, and change is a good thing, it’s what kick started Vince into making his own stars after they all jumped ship to the WCW in the mid 90’s. I hope things get better, I do and I understand people’s frustrations, but you have a simple choice, if you like what you see, watch it, if you don’t, change the channel. I don’t like women’s wrestling, so I normally change the channel when it’s on. Simple really

[KingofOldSchool]

Matt's way more over now than he was during his V1 gimmick.

[The Optimist]

WOAH!!!!

What the hell, Alienoid, you should be very ashamed of yourself and The Optimist. You're part of an elite group that can see the light in some decisions. I did look on the bright side.

Other than that, alot of good talent and natural charisma within the WWE that I enjoy out of principal, including Shelton Benjamin with whatever haircut he has.

I'm not going to jump semantics entirely, but just because I like to think of the glass as half-full doesn't mean that it doesn't contain some amount of piss.

[Maluco]

WOAH!!!!

What the hell, Alienoid, you should be very ashamed of yourself and The Optimist. You're part of an elite group that can see the light in some decisions. I will try my best:




This was to make Kahli look strong for the PPV, nothing against Hardy, a loss to Kahli is hardly going to effect his pops, the guy is over like rover, so if you were going to have Kahli take a win over anyone on the RAW roster, I’d use Jeff, he’s over so Kahli in turn will get some heat for the beat down. And Jeff will be just as over next week. Jeff also doesn’t have a match at the PPV so it’s not like it’s affected him at all really.



You can blame Mr Kennedy for this one, it was obvious that they had a plan for it, this could just be a way to stall and they could pick a different person as the father, but they had a week to come up with something, the PPV was all sorted so they knew who was going in all the spots, so no one needed a rub for that. They will either just have a month of comedy skits with a midget or we will learn who the kid is in a few weeks time, it’s not really that big a deal is it, it was and still is a stupid angle, so expect a stupid outcome



It was obvious whoever a guy faces on his return that they are going to do a job, I don’t see anyone bitching about Chavo jobbing to Rey. Booker has had a heck of a run with the King stuff, he’d been put over a lot since coming to Raw to make him look strong. It was a throw away match as Summerslam and Booker is hardly known as being a bad ass heel right now is/was he? In a straight one on one match with no cheating, he should NEVER win with someone who is at the same level as him, he’s a dick for a heel, he needs to cheat etc to get a win, in this scenario it was all about trips. Plus if he came back on TV I doubt anyone would care/remember him losing as he has such a great gimmick to carry past the win/loss record. He fits into the same category as Jeff Hardy for me, he has a connection with the fans which means they can job and not lose heat, they are a valuable resource and can and have been used correctly.

Oh and Shelton jobbing? Who the hell cares, he’s been a tag guy for a while, he’s having single’s matches to just keep him on TV until Haas gets back, if I were him I’d just be thankful I’m still getting TV time



It’s done to get yourself recognised, it’s called gimmicks, Booker has a crown and a cape, Jeff has 8 different colours in his hair, it’s cone to get you remembered, so if a casual fan watches, he might not know Shelton’s name, but he can remember the black guy with blonde hair, because it looked unique



Again, it’s a gimmick, gets you remembered, I agree that his work rate isn’t what it was before his first injury over a year and a half ago, but his overall mike work and heat generation is very good.




Masters: Come on leaps and bounds since he started, brought in waaaay too early, but since then has managed to get his finisher really over and has his unique Masterlock challenges

Shelton/Hass: I can’t disagree, they are better in tags as when they are single’s, frankly, they suck, lack of charisma

Matt Hardy: Are you fucking kidding me? He’s one of the hottest things on Smackdown right now, he’s awesome in the ring and is a really good story teller, his feud with MVP has been the best thing on TV this year IMO. His V1 stuff as a heel was his most entertaining, but as a face there’s only so much you can do to get heat. Considering the limited mic time he gets, most of his character is based on what he does in the ring, which is fucking awesome stuff.



It’s not 1999 anymore, no matter how much everyone wants another Rock and another Austin it’s not going to happen, Hulk Hogan and the Ultimate Warrior were different as well in the previous boom period, it’s obvious that for the past 7 years wrestling generally hasn’t been as hot, it’s nothing new, if you don’t like the TV, don’t watch it. If you want to see guys coming in on zamboni’s and beating up the boss, watch some tapes. Stop living in the past.



No, another attitude era isn’t needed, something new is needed, but not going back to the well. In all honesty, as I’ve said in previous posts, I think the next 2 years could see a turnaround, if the government get tight on them, it means less big roid freaks and more guys who can work and talk (i.e smaller guys with more talent, ala 93 with the Bret/Michaels era) Sure the ratings will be lower, but it will be better for us real wrestling fans. Things are going to get worse before they get better, make no mistake about it, there will be more guys who leave and others that need to step up to the plate, it’s going to be a lot of change, and change is a good thing, it’s what kick started Vince into making his own stars after they all jumped ship to the WCW in the mid 90’s. I hope things get better, I do and I understand people’s frustrations, but you have a simple choice, if you like what you see, watch it, if you don’t, change the channel. I don’t like women’s wrestling, so I normally change the channel when it’s on. Simple really


Good effort...this is the type of response that I wanted...Destor doesn't merit a response, love discussions, hate needless, stupid criticisms...

As for your response, Khali needed to look strong, but at the sake of the current IC champion? This is the reason the belt looks like crap nowadays.

As for the whole Hornswaggle thing, lets see...but I really believe the angle will just come back to HHH, like everything will from now on...

As for the King Booker thing...they could have saved the gimmick and kept it safe from Triple H, or at least waited a while and had a good 20 minute match between the two. Booker was the World Champion on Smackdown and the 8 minutes make him look weak, as well as SmackDown. Triple H could have easily beaten someone of a lesser standard. Chavo will never be a main eventer...so don't see the comparison. Shelton was just an example of Trips attitude, I could care less, but you can bet it was done to avenge his losses of the past against him.

Masters, hass, benjamin etc....don't see the differences, still hate watching masters, but that could be my problem. I DO like the MVP/Hardy feud, but think Hardy's character is lacking...but again, that can be put down to opinion.

As for the whole attitude part, I never even liked the Rock/Austin, but I loved Mankind, N.A.O, Hart, Micheals and even all the stables of that era. We had great writing, well built, extremely different charaters and dynamics, and ALL I am saying is that the effort is not there anymore. The characters have no work done to them and the wrestling and booking is very often poor at best.

I do NOT want another attitude era, I just think people need to work harder on their own charaters and bookers need to have common sense, focus on the titles, and invest our emotions in the matches again...maybe thgis story with Cena and Orton is the start of that change.

[Maluco]

Geuninely just wanted a discussion here, hear what people liked, what they agreed with, what they would change, what they liked and would like to see more of...

I agree that it is the norm to complain about the current product, but just throwing around a few criticisms, ideas and arguments isn't possible now?

[Jordan]

Yeah but how old were you when the attitude era was around? We were all mostly in our teens or early 20's, it was rebellious and was what we felt at the time, so it worked.

Jeff Hardy can job every Raw for 3 months and still get the top 3 pop of the night and sell the most T-Shirts aside from Cena.

Beside Khali needs all of the head he can get, especially going into a PPV.

Kennedy is better than ever, I didn't really watch him on Smackdown! religiously except the feud with Taker, which was great. But he has been great since coming to Raw. Sure he says his name a lot, but he says and does plenty of other things to make up for anyone who could say "thats all he does". In the ring, every match he will focus on a part of the opponents body and do unique moves to damage it. Like Bobby Lashley, when he kicked his shoulder against the steps, then he worked over the shoulder the whole match, even did a cool spot where he jumped over the top rope to the outside while holding onto Lashley's arm.

Hornswoggle is bullshit I agree, hopefully its just a filler til Kennedy returns.

Now to Triple H... I have hated Triple H and loved him... right now I am pretty into him. Did you really think Booker would win at Summerslam? Or get a dq or countout? They built Triple H up all summer as The King of Kings. He had been out for 8 months he can't wrestle 20 minutes. And Umaga, well he got suspended for the drugs and needed a way to take him off tv. So why not set up a major feud for Survivor Series? Umaga vs Triple H will be really good.

I agree on Cena, I wish he would freestyle more. Cena is pretty good since the feud with Cena started, but we need to see something new pretty soon.

Matt Hardy is the shit, he can't talk that well and does all his work in the ring. Shelton deffinatly stands out more with blond hair, although its kinda stupid.... I dunno you make some good points, but I think you should chill and accept what they are giving, just try to enjoy some of it. There has to be something you like.

Like for me, I don't watch TNA. Why? Because the don't do anything I like. I used to like Styles, and Joe, and Christain, and Angle, but TNA just sucks and makes them suck. See what I am saying? If you really hated the product you wouldn't watch it. So what do you like?

[Maluco]

Yeah, I was feeling particulaly let down when I wrote this. I do enjoy some of it, there have just been more and more disappointments in recent months. Booker should have been a feud for AFTER the return, giving Triple H time to get ready for that. Kennedy and Hardy are improving and I can see why people like them, I just don't seem them as massive stars like so many others do, particularly Kennedy.

Also get your point about the attitude era, but for me, the characters were just funnier, the storylines were more captivating and the writing was better, I know that was a golden period though.

Good points though, I always will watch, just would like to see more of an effort in developing mid-card/lower-card feuds and characters that we can care about. Tag Team wrestling and the situations with the worth of titles, speak for themselves.

[Jordan]

Tag Team should be a big focus for WWE. They have never really booked tag teams as well as the NWA did, or a lot of other great old territories. They feel that nobody is paying to see the tag teams, well no shit especially when you don't have any!

I think WWE's best tag run was with The Dudleys, The Hardys, Edge and Christain, and the APA. Those were the day.

I agree with you The Attitude Era was the best thing ever, no doubt. But you can't go back to that line of thinking, you have to move on. I look at it like this...

First there was the traditional wrestling era from around 1970-1983, gimmicks were getting big but not over whelming. There are exceptions of course.

Then from around 83-93 sports entertainment took over. The traditional realism was kinda thrown out the window in place of more drama, angles, and comedy.

Then in in 94 WWE was getting dull, everybody had seen it all before. During this point people were getting familiar with ECW and its hardcore style. Not a ton of people but enough to warrant a change in that direction, or enough to know thats where they were going. So in 95 the attitude era was just boiling then in 96 it started with Austin's 3:16 speech.

Right now we are stuck in that era still. If you look back at 94 you have Bret, Diesel, Razor, Owen, Shawn, and you could say that its not the same as the Hogan/Savage/Warrior/Ted Diabiase/Jake the Snake era.... but really it was the same just with new faces.

And thats how we are right now, we are at the end of the attitude era and boiling for something new. The only logical step would be to go back to realism. MMA is huge and taking a lot of PPV buys that WWE wants for their own. And with MMA being so big, what is really the point in watching WWE? They are going to have to resort to what makes wrestling really good... strong feuds, and great matches.

I think you can see this forming in a lot of the guys today such as Kennedy, Cena, Bobby Lashley, Punk, Santino, Morrison, MVP, Matt Hardy.

A lot of people don't think that Cena or Lashley are any good but I do. I know they are good wrestlers and they have proven it to me time and time again.

I guess this was kind of a rant but, I really feel that we are about to see a totally new directions with the WWE. BTW I think this investigation with the roids is going to help it out a lot.

[Juan]

I hate the WWE thread 1,000,234,123.

Whoop.

Exactly.