Now is the time for the wwe to look for new champs

[Renaissance man]

Orton is clearly not the answer nor will he ever be. Michaels is god but his time is passing quickly. Ditto for taker. The wwe needs to look to Hardy, Palumbo and mvp for the future

thoughts and comments welcome

[SammyG]

LOL Palumbo

[Renaissance man]

Yes. the man has talent. stop and think clearly about it

[D Mac]

Orton is doing a fine job if you ask me.

[Renaissance man]

Orton is a girl's blouse. a huge one!

[Stickman]

I got nothing against Orton being champ. One man can't do it all, there needs to be a supporting cast, and that's what is missing.

[SammyG]

I like Orton as champ. Palumbo will NEVER get a decent title run.

[Renaissance man]

Sad but true words

[Kane Knight]

Spoiler: Cena Wins.

[D Mac]

:(

[Renaissance man]

It is so great not to have cena on tv. lets all enjoy it while it lasts.

[The One]

Wait a second...you don't like Orton with the belt, but you want to hand it over to Chuck "Sean O'Haire carried my career until I was gay, then became lame Biker Taker rip off" Palumbo?

Orton is the goods. He's the best heel the company has right now, and while he may have one too many rest holds, he is probably one of the better ring workers of the "Young" generation.

[Theo Dious]

I would vomit if Chuck Palumbo got a world title run of any kind.

[The One]

Of any kind??? There's only one "World" level title bro...

[Theo Dious]

I was just specifying that my remark included any possible world titles that may be created in the future. :shifty:

[Goulet]

If Chuck Palumbo won the WWE/World Title I may piss my pants out of sheer hilarity

[Kane Knight]

Orton is the goods. He's the best heel the company has right now, and while he may have one too many rest holds, he is probably one of the better ring workers of the "Young" generation.

None of that's particularly impressive by itself, though. Outheeling this shitty "generation" isn't hard. Cena does it without even trying.

[Xero]

Michaels and Taker should have been out of the title picture years ago.

Not that I have anything against them, but veterans like them don't need the title and when they've had main event and title runs it just stalls the elevation of the next generation, which it did (not only because of them, though).

[Kane Knight]

Michaels and Taker should have been out of the title picture years ago.

Not that I have anything against them, but veterans like them don't need the title and when they've had main event and title runs it just stalls the elevation of the next generation, which it did (not only because of them, though).

And beyond that, they're more prone towards injury.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Michaels since his return. He's been on fire in the ring and all, but he's racked up some injuries in his life, and they're going to catch up to him. In a way, they already have.

Same with Taker. He's had some pretty serious ones, including this last tear, which was bad, and hip problems. The thing about injuries is they don't get lighter with age.

And Bats isn't a vet, so the bits about not needing the belt and such don't count with him, but this guy's one moderate injury away from retirement, and WWE keeps banking on him. I mean, seriously.
And while it's true of any injury prone wrestler, it's more true of older wrestlers.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Chuck Palumbo knows how to make an impact!

[Jura]

You are half the man Chuck Palumbo is!

[BigDaddyCool]

Palumbo sucks.

[Kane Knight]

Zoidberg for Champ!

[BigDaddyCool]

No Jew Shelfish will ever be champion as long as I am alive. BTW, how can a shelfish be jew, isn't in like ain't kosher?

[Kane Knight]

No Jew Shelfish will ever be champion as long as I am alive. BTW, how can a shelfish be jew, isn't in like ain't kosher?Eating shellfish is. So no foreplay.

[FourFifty]

Eating shellfish is. So no foreplay.

:( (says the Jew)

[DAMN iNATOR]

Michaels and Taker should have been out of the title picture years ago.

Not that I have anything against them, but veterans like them don't need the title and when they've had main event and title runs it just stalls the elevation of the next generation, which it did (not only because of them, though).

I would agree about Michaels, not so much so about Taker though, because he's never had a proper title run as a veteran like him should have had in his 17 years (it'll be 17 within days/weeks) with WWE. He's had 5 title runs, and the one he began, as we all know was meant to have him hold the title for probably something like 10 months to a year which would have been fine, except for he suffered an injury that put him on the shelf for like 5 months or something, and he needs to get his 6th title, and work like half-time (not full-time, but not part-time, so the fans can't say he's a lazy champion or anything) and keep the gold for about a solid year. Then *HE* needs to let his career REST...IN...PEACE.

[Kane Knight]

Daminator, will a "proper title run" elevate him in any way?

[DAMN iNATOR]

Daminator, will a "proper title run" elevate him in any way?

Well, the answer as we all know, is "NO." or "HELL NO!", whichever. But still the guy's combined title runs add up to what, several months at most?

Edit: 4 WWE title runs for 238 total days over those 4.
1 WHC title run for 37 total days over that 1.
-----------------------------------------------
5 total title runs for 275 total days over those 5 = 55 days avg. with each title.

UNACCEPTABLE.

[Kane Knight]

But he's had so many main event runs, what difference does it make?

[DAMN iNATOR]

But he's had so many main event runs, what difference does it make?

Well, it probably won't make too much difference to anybody but Mark Calloway himself, but then when he's inducted into the HoF, what's he going to have to say for himself, except for, "Oh, yeah, I'm that creep who always showed up out of nowhere in pitch black arenas, won (number) of consecutive WrestleMania matches and went undefeated at Mania, and, oh, yeah, I had a lousy manager and even lousier title reigns. Thanks, Goodnight."?

But anyway I think it's time to put this debate to rest before it gets tiresome.

[Kane Knight]

Or "I dominated through most of my career."

A fake win streak like that is every bit as impressive as a fake title reign.

[hb2k]

"Chuck Palumbo"...-_-

[interforce]

Funniest thread i have seen here so far!!


Chuck for the title!! WTF

[Heyman]

Orton is clearly not the answer nor will he ever be. Michaels is god but his time is passing quickly. Ditto for taker. The wwe needs to look to Hardy, Palumbo and mvp for the future

thoughts and comments welcome

No No No No No No NO NO!!! :foc:

You CANNOT point at one man say he/she is NOT the answer just because the ratings are low. This was NOT the case when Triple H was on top, this was NOT the case when John Cena was on top, and this NOT the case at current!!

I had this argument a few months ago with *internet username* Savior. Savior's stance was that Cena being champ was killing RAW and killing his interest. He argued that with Orton as champ, things would be "freshened up" and we would see the proverbial "light and the end of the tunnel."

Savior was wrong. Savior is a faggot.

Just as we saw in 2004 with Triple H and now with Cena/Orton whoever, the problem is FAR FAR bigger than who is the current champ?....and whether he is solely responsible for ratings (good or bad).

It's a TEAM effort. The ENTIRE roster needs to be interesting, solid, from TOP to BOTTOM.

Right now - ALL THREE rosters have very very limited depth and/or interesting characters. A lot of the wrestlers are in the SAME position that they were 2-3 years ago (i.e. Benjamin, Carlitto, Hass, Matt Hardy, Snitsky, Val Venis, Cruiserweight Division, Viscera, etc., etc., etc.)

Whether management deliberately held them back (to cater to Triple H! omg!) or whether a lot of these "promising talents" simply didn't live up to expectations, the fact of the matter is that ZERO mid-carders have been elevated to the point of creating fan interest. As result, the WWE were forced to push hosses such as Khali and Umaga to "freshen" things up (much to the chagrin of wrestling purists, and much to the perverse sexual gratification of Jim Ross).

Still - no TRUE mid-carder really rose within the ranks.

The biggest challenge the WWE faces today is NOT whether Cena, Orton, Triple H, or whomever can single-handedly draw for RAW. None of these men can, and it's ridiculous to assume that they can...and even more riduculous to point a finger at these guys when ratings stink.

The biggest challenge in the WWE today, is whether guys like Santino Marella, MVP, and Ken Kennedy can rise up from the mid-cards and establish themselves as main-eventers. And again - people can knock Triple H or whoever for "holding them back" but the fact of the matter remains that THESE guys have to PROVE themselves.

No one gift wrapped anything to John Cena a few years ago. The guy flat out earned respect and became the #1 guy. Marella, MVP, Kennedy, etc. have to do the same. And once they get there, do NOT abuse their new status. Randy Orton for instance, quite possibly pissed away a major chance at becoming a true legend in this business when he decided to act like a dick backstage (proving that he wasn't ready to be THE man...and got suspended on multiple occassions). Same thing with RVD. After he won the ECW title? He went ahead and got arrested for maritjuana possession.


Bottom line? Mid-carders have to rise up. Of fans are NOT going to be interested if guys like Cena and Orton are facing "garbage" opponents such as Umaga and Khali. Of course the fans are NOT going to be interested if Cena is feuding with guys like Shawn Michaels and Edge for the 1 trillionth time.....simply because mid-carders like Carlitto and Benjamin have failed to meet expectations of management.

Now is the time for the WWE to look for new champs, but now is the time for the up-coming mid-carders to PROVE themselves of being WORTHY.

[Heyman]

Why can't the WWE simply use successfull formulas from the Attitude Era?

Another thing I don't understand about the WWE, is why can't they simply go back to what was WORKING from the Attitude Era?

In the Attitude era,

-The matches were shorter and more conclusive.

-There was a hardcore division which PERFECTLY allowed more wrestlers to get TV time, while providing for an always interested side story to the more serious angles

-The women's division and Cruiserweight division didn't have very much relevance. In my opinion, there should be no women's division. Garbage "bra and panties" matches, etc. should happen only once a month..if at all. Women's matches in general should only be done 2-3 times a month IMO. The Cruiserweight Division should only exist if the weight limit is increased (i.e. allowing some bigger guys to enter in such as Matt Hardy).

-Bring back gimmicks and PERSONALITIES. In the Attitude era - EVERY single guy was easily identifiable with certain catchphrases, gimmicks, or personality traits. Goldust, Val Venis, Godfather, Gangrel, Undertaker, Kane, Mankind, Degeneration X, Brood, The Nation, Al Snow, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, etc.

-There was NO roster split!

Why the WWE decided to stray away from this when they bought out WCW, is way beyond me.


To make a long story short - go with ideas/concepts that have been PROVEN to work. Keep it simple.


-Another thing I forgot to mention: A dominant heel stable vs. a few top faces almost always does good numbers.

-n.W.o vs. WCW
-Austin (few others) vs. Corporation
-The Rock (few others) vs. McMahon-Helmsley Faction

In 2004, the WWE actually started to gain momentum when Evolution was on top (and them....and Randy Orton himself....completely shit the bed upon Orton's face turn). I also believe that if JBL wasn't so quickly "thrusted" into being a main-eventer so soon, then his Cabinet stable would've been far more successful as well. Even with that being said, Smackdown was probably at its best (in recent memory) when The Cabinet was at the height of its power.

If the WWE want to give Taker one last run? Fine. Why not re-form the Ministry? Unlike DX, the Ministry would NOT have to a watered down version of the original. Kane, Viscera, and a few other characters could easily serve as Taker's henchmen.


I guess the main point I'm trying to make, is that the WWE doesn't have to re-invent the wheel. Go with what was working....and yes, that's a LOT different than simply re-hashing old gimmicks.

[Kane Knight]

The Roster was not stellar from top to bottom in the Attitude Era. There were some pretty glaring flaws. What was important was that there was more talent at the top. I'm pretty sure they could have filled the rest of the car with midgets dancing and it'd sell, because the big names mattered.

But now it is on one or two people, and that point is well taken. A promotion booked around one or two people will always suck, even if it's Jesus and Bret. And yes, folks, Jesus did screw Bret.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The Roster was not stellar from top to bottom in the Attitude Era. There were some pretty glaring flaws. What was important was that there was more talent at the top. I'm pretty sure they could have filled the rest of the car with midgets dancing and it'd sell, because the big names mattered.

But now it is on one or two people, and that point is well taken. A promotion booked around one or two people will always suck, even if it's Jesus and Bret. And yes, folks, Jesus did screw Bret.

While I agree with this, in part, the undercard was definitely done a lot better than what the WWE does with it today. It's all main event, main event, main event these days, and that's not enough to carry a company.

Also, looking at the current Champions of all three brands, I think CM Punk and Batista are fine in their current roles. CM Punk has a bright future with the company, and Batista, like him or not, is pretty fucking over. Compared to everyone else in SmackDown!'s main event scene, I am happiest with him as World Heavyweight Champion. His match with The Undertaker in Hell in a Cell at Survivor Series might end up being a career performance, but unfortunately he and Taker will probably both walk out of the match with injuries, and we'll need Edge to pick up the slack, again.

The company does need to start looking at rotating some of the older product out for the newer product. Not all of the newer product is good, though. Randy Orton is incredibly boring as WWE Champion, no matter what Tovo says. The WWE Title has spent so much time on guys who are really quite bland (Cena, Orton), that I think they need to go with someone like Shawn Michaels as WWE Champion, at least for a bit, just to restore some credibility to the belt, and then move it onto another young heel act. The face that dethrones Orton will probably be Chris Jericho, and I am completely fine with that.

On SmackDown!, Batista is fine, but he shouldn't be the World Heavyweight Champion for too much longer. Edge, as injury prone as he has proven to be, should win the belt back, and then the company should start building MVP and Matt Hardy up. Believe it or not, I think Edge vs. Matt Hardy might be the best thing for SmackDown! right now.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I've decided that the only Champion in the WWE that I am specifically unhappy with is Randy Orton. Batista is not too high on my list, but I think every other single Champion, from World Titles to Tag Titles, is pretty damn decent.

[Impact!]

Palumbo :love:

[Heyman]

The Roster was not stellar from top to bottom in the Attitude Era. There were some pretty glaring flaws. What was important was that there was more talent at the top. I'm pretty sure they could have filled the rest of the car with midgets dancing and it'd sell, because the big names mattered.

But now it is on one or two people, and that point is well taken. A promotion booked around one or two people will always suck, even if it's Jesus and Bret. And yes, folks, Jesus did screw Bret.

I'll have to slightly disagree. Yes - The overall WRESTLING talent of the mid-card/low-card during the Attitude Era definitely was NOT stellar...and like you say, there definitely was some glaring flaws.

However - I'd argue that the creative team did an EXCELLENT job at getting the fans to care about almost every single guy. Almost every single wrestler was very unique in some way....and had atleast one intriguing characteristic about them that got amplified.

-Val Venis (videos)
-Al Snow (schizio)
-Brood (Blood Baths)
-Mankind (insane)
-Godfather (pimp)
-Road Dogg/Billy Gunn (popular schticks)
-X-Pac (the little bitch that could.....the undersized warrior with a huge heart).
-Goldust (Shattered Dreams....kicked other dudes in the nuts).
-Patterson, Brisco, Slaughter......Vince's stooges...made for some great comedy.
-Hardcore Holly (overly brave.....took on all-comers)
-Mark Henry (sexual chocolate.....slept with Mae Young)

Even certain guys that weren't naturally that charismatic, found a way to get over by being aligned with Vince McMahon's corporation or Undertaker's Ministry

-Bossman
-Test
-Steve Blackman
-Mideon
-Acolytes
-Viscera
-Ken Shamrock

Heck - even FEMALE wrestlers such as Sable got HUUUGE face reactions (and there wasn't even a real woman's division at the time). When Sable/Edge defeated Jacqueline/Marc Mero at Summerslam, Sable got popped huge. In my opinion, the women's "division" was absolutely perfect at the time. Short; brief; and to the point (unlike my post ;)).

-Jeff Jarret hit people over the head with his guitar...used Debra and her "puppies" as distraction.

-Owen Hart's dorky ways got spectacular heel heat....as did D'Lo Brown.

-If you want to count Kane and Mankind in there, they also had wildy intriguing and successful characters. Even Triple H before winning the title, was turning some major heads with his charisma/gimmick, etc.


Yes - the undercard/mid-card during the RAW era was below average in terms of overall wrestling talent, but the diversity and intrigue of the CHARACTERS (key word here) is what made the undercard/mid-card of the Attitude Era absolutely tremendous.

Almost every single guy was hugely over.....and for a reason.


So in conclusion....I don't really agree. In my opinion, the roster WAS stacked from top to bottom....not because of superior wrestling ability, but because the WWE creative team did a phenomenal job of getting the fans to CARE about each and every CHARACTER.

The Austin/Vince McMahon angle obviously carried the company, but the rest of the card were way over as well.

For an example of what I'm talking about, please watch an old tape of Summerslam 98'.

[Heyman]

I'll have to slightly disagree. Yes - The overall WRESTLING talent of the mid-card/low-card during the Attitude Era definitely was NOT stellar...and like you say, there definitely was some glaring flaws.

However - I'd argue that the creative team did an EXCELLENT job at getting the fans to care about almost every single guy. Almost every single wrestler was very unique in some way....and had atleast one intriguing characteristic about them that got amplified.

-Val Venis (videos)
-Al Snow (schizio)
-Brood (Blood Baths)
-Mankind (insane)
-Godfather (pimp)
-Road Dogg/Billy Gunn (popular schticks)
-X-Pac (the little bitch that could.....the undersized warrior with a huge heart).
-Goldust (Shattered Dreams....kicked other dudes in the nuts).
-Patterson, Brisco, Slaughter......Vince's stooges...made for some great comedy.
-Hardcore Holly (overly brave.....took on all-comers)
-Mark Henry (sexual chocolate.....slept with Mae Young)

Even certain guys that weren't naturally that charismatic, found a way to get over by being aligned with Vince McMahon's corporation or Undertaker's Ministry

-Bossman
-Test
-Steve Blackman
-Mideon
-Acolytes
-Viscera
-Ken Shamrock

Heck - even FEMALE wrestlers such as Sable got HUUUGE face reactions (and there wasn't even a real woman's division at the time). When Sable/Edge defeated Jacqueline/Marc Mero at Summerslam, Sable got popped huge. In my opinion, the women's "division" was absolutely perfect at the time. Short; brief; and to the point (unlike my post ;)).

-Jeff Jarret hit people over the head with his guitar...used Debra and her "puppies" as distraction.

-Owen Hart's dorky ways got spectacular heel heat....as did D'Lo Brown.

-If you want to count Kane and Mankind in there, they also had wildy intriguing and successful characters. Even Triple H before winning the title, was turning some major heads with his charisma/gimmick, etc.


Yes - the undercard/mid-card during the RAW era was below average in terms of overall wrestling talent, but the diversity and intrigue of the CHARACTERS (key word here) is what made the undercard/mid-card of the Attitude Era absolutely tremendous.

Almost every single guy was hugely over.....and for a reason.


So in conclusion....I don't really agree. In my opinion, the roster WAS stacked from top to bottom....not because of superior wrestling ability, but because the WWE creative team did a phenomenal job of getting the fans to CARE about each and every CHARACTER.

The Austin/Vince McMahon angle obviously carried the company, but the rest of the card were way over as well.

For an example of what I'm talking about, please watch an old tape of Summerslam 98'.

In contrast, the creative team (or the wrestler's themselves) do NOT put a whole of effort into the characters. Today, a guy is expected to be a main-eventer by just saying "Kennedaay!" a bunch of times.

Characters exist today, but almost NONE of them are APLIFIED in the manner that the characters were during the Attitude Era.

-Carlitto spits apples in people's faces and says, "das not cool." Woooow!

-Kennedy says "Kennedaaay!" a whole bunch of times. oooooooooh!!!!

The only "characters" that have are really letting their personalities shine right now, are MVP and Santino Marella IMO.

Fans don't care about the mid-card/under-card wrestlers today (despite greater wrestling talent than the Attitude era wrestlers), because they have no reason to. Ironically enough - they look a lot like WCW's under-card during its final days.

[Kane Knight]

I'd disagree.

Ever been to a rock concert where even the shitty opening act gets a standing O?

[Theo Dious]

I'd disagree.

Ever been to a rock concert where even the shitty opening act gets a standing O?

You mean it's possible that people in the attitude era were so excited about the promise of a great and satisfying show, they even got excited about that which was overtly less exciting?

You mean it's possible that nobody gets exciting for more lackluster performers today because there is no such promise that the show is going to be that good?

You mean you just managed to sum up the problem in two lines that it took Heyman a small pamphlet to explain?

Nah, it's probably Vince Russo's fault. :shifty:

[.44 Magdalene]

... I like Palumbo. :(

[Kane Knight]

You mean it's possible that people in the attitude era were so excited about the promise of a great and satisfying show, they even got excited about that which was overtly less exciting?

You mean it's possible that nobody gets exciting for more lackluster performers today because there is no such promise that the show is going to be that good?

You mean you just managed to sum up the problem in two lines that it took Heyman a small pamphlet to explain?

Nah, it's probably Vince Russo's fault. :shifty:

Yeah, what was I thinking? :(

Yeah, but seriously, you book ended the midcard with people like The Rock, Austin, Undertaker, DX. When the show starts and ends with the guys you're hyped to see, even the filler will seem exciting.

Attitude Era shows seemed better because the big guys were better. Hornswiggle would be fine as a distraction in an Attitude Era show, no worse than the minis, or any of a dozen dumb gimmicks, because when you headline with folks like the aforementioned, the show can afford to have some less stellar points.

The last couple weeks of Raw should show the problem. Even the big events get almost no reaction (That isn't piped in. I'm sorry, but anyone who wants me to believe that it sounds like the crowd's on it's feet when nobody's cheering or standing or even moving has to be getting higher than RVD). When you can barely get people excited for your big hitters, everything else will seem like it sucks. More.

But like a kickass rock band, if they start and finish strong, you probably won't care much when the singer forgets the words to one of the songs.