So, Codebreaker... Yay or Nay? (RAW Spoilers)

[Xero]

So Jericho debuted his new move tonight, The Codebreaker. Not sure if it has a technical name, but for those who didn't see it, think of it like a Backcraker only with the knees to the face.

So... Yay, nay, eh or Loose Cannon?

[BigDaddyCool]

Loose Cannon, I mean nay. Nay to Jericho being back at all. He isn't doing shit.

[McLegend]

Yay to the name, but the move is kinda ehh

[Innovator]

Name isn't bad

[BigDaddyCool]

No, the name sucks as well. The whole code gimmick/name thing is just a shell, a name. He isn't doing anything but the same shit he did as Y2J and Lionheart and everything else. I'm just bored by the whole thing.

[McLegend]

NAh the name fits

[BigDaddyCool]

It would fit, but he isn't breaking the guys code, he is breaking their face or chin or something.

[Executioner]

by the fact that is simply a facecracker....i say yay because its like when carlito started doing the backstabber (backcracker) its something no one has done in the WWE to my knowledge

edit: oh and i know im not a member but K4L!

[The Genius]

eh, i would like to see him bring back the original liontamer.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

IT IS COOL NOT TO LIKE THINGS THAT ARE POPULAR WITH THE MAINSTREAM SO ZOMGGGGGGGG NO IT'S SHIT

[BlackDawn2024]

I would prefer him to use the original Liontamer, but I'm fine with the Codebreaker. The name is pretty catchy and it's a good "out of nowhere" move(which I prefer), so I'm kind of digging it.

[BigDaddyCool]

Wrestling is not mainstream. Posting about wrestling is not mainstream wrestling. From last weeks ratings and this weeks lack of a pop for Jericho, he isn't what the mainstream wants either. I'm just no agreeing with mainstream TPWW.

[Nark Order]

BDC, you have no credibility because you hate everything. Everything is the entire free world is hated by you. I'm not saying that you are incorrect in this particular instance but try smelling some flowers or something.

[BigDaddyCool]

BDC, you have no credibility because you hate everything. Everything is the entire free world is hated by you. I'm not saying that you are incorrect in this particular instance but try smelling some flowers or something.

I like things. I'm just not buying this whole Jericho is god because he was half decent 3 years ago, then got lazy before retiring 2 years ago, but now that he has come back he is amazing. Just because some 6 foot tall 230 something wrestler is good on the mic, I'm not going to start jerking him off for nothing. Jericho is a solid upper mid card worker. Pretending he is awesome doesn't change the fact that he is upper midcard at best.

If you want to see greatness, HBK.

[Nark Order]

To me, it seems like it would be more of a setup type move for something else but that isn't to say that it can't be built up to be massive on its own. It's kinda cool because it's a move that can come out of nowewhere practically. Also, it looks as if it wouldn't be too difficult to pull off coming off of the second turnbuckle or off of a springboard.

[The Optimist]

I voted Loose Cannon. The ballet was confusing.

It's . . . not bad. A good quick move that I buy as pretty easily able to knock a guy out for a three count. I'd like to have it become his back-up finisher if they don't want to end with a Liontamer, not just a replacement. (I'm not sure what they intend so far. That might possibly be exactly what they'll do.)

[Nark Order]

I like things. I'm just not buying this whole Jericho is god because he was half decent 3 years ago, then got lazy before retiring 2 years ago, but now that he has come back he is amazing. Just because some 6 foot talk 230 something wrestling is good on the mic, I'm not going to start jerking him off for nothing. Jericho is a solid upper mid card worked. Pretending he is awesome doesn't change the fact that he is upper midcard at best.

If you want to see greatness, HBK.

Well, I guess only time will tell if Y2J lives up to the hype. He's only been back for two weeks so far. I don't think he's been bad by any means but everyone is entitled to an opinion. As for the codebreaker, I approve.

I disagree with the 'forever in the midcard' thing. Albeit, he's a bit small but so was Eddie and so was Benoit. He's got the charisma, mic skills, in-ring skills and experience to be a pretty heavy force in the midcard for at least a couple years. At the very least, he's better than Orton.

[thedamndest]

Codebreaker was good, like everyone else though, want to see the Liontamer come out.

[JT]

I like things. I'm just not buying this whole Jericho is god because he was half decent 3 years ago, then got lazy before retiring 2 years ago, but now that he has come back he is amazing. Just because some 6 foot talk 230 something wrestling is good on the mic, I'm not going to start jerking him off for nothing. Jericho is a solid upper mid card worked. Pretending he is awesome doesn't change the fact that he is upper midcard at best.

If you want to see greatness, HBK.

Meh, I've honestly been a Jericho fan since the WCW days, but to an extent I agree with BDC. I love Jericho, but I can't be ignorant to the fact that his coming was a bit gay, and this week not only was he a bit stale on the mic...but the crowd was giving him the John Cena treatment. He reminds me of Christian when he went to TNA...great to see, but just didn't really try anymore or maybe was trying too hard.

As for HBK, yea...anyone who argues that HBK isn't that great is just doing it to get BDC and a few others to stop riding the Kliques dicks every post (seriously, gimmick or not, it's getting old to hear). However, as good as HBK is, he's been in the title scene since last year and has lost every title match (and yes he didn't lose at CS, but I see no belt around his waist so it doesn't seem to matter). At this point, the lost of momentum has kind of gotten me bored of him...and probably some others around here as well.

I think with Jericho, we were looking for something fresh and different, and as much as he's been off his game, we seek it too hard and thus why we ride Jericho. However, with HBK used up, and the fact that HHH could tear a quad again for all I care, the klique isn't helping much anymore either.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I like the move, but we'll see how it works as a finisher. If he can pull it out of nowhere, it'll be good (ala RKO, Sweet chin music). My only concern is him botching it, as it's a move that could easily looked fucked up if the timing is off.

Also, I'd like to point out that Jerichio has been watching Marufuji wrestle ;)

[Mr. JL]

I'd take Codebreaker Y2J over Cena, HHH, Orton, Batista, or Undertaker any damn day of the year.

[Jeritron]

You motherfuckers will never be happy

[Blitz]

I dig it.

[FourFifty]

Loose Cannon
While the move looks cool and the name fits I wanted to see a Lionsault or The Walls of Jericho.

[Funky Fly]

I dig it. It seems like it would be a secondary finisher at best. You know, good for coming out of nowhere and can put a guy away, but is used more for a set up to something bigger.

[SammyG]

I like it

[Skippord]

I like it but he should use it to set up the Liontamer

[Dave Youell]

Wow, I’ve used that!!!

Sweet!

And there’s a sweet set up he can do, set the opponent up like they crotched on the 2nd rope, like when Goldust gave people a kick to the nuts.

Then run at them. Full on knees, like an E Express and then drop into the code breaker, it looks savage

I like the move, and it can be set up in a bunch of ways.

Like he could go for a monkey flip from a corner, the guy hold onto the ropes, so Jericho jumps off the guys thighs and falls back with the hands behind his head, bamb!

Can reverse that out of a powerbomb, Bamb!

Just a good flash move, I likes it I do

[Funky Fly]

yeah, that's a good way of putting it: a flash move.

Nobody ever sees it coming.

[addy2hotty]

Thought Jericho was pretty awesome this week personally, looked good in the ring, good on the mic and although he should have given it to Orton to cost him the match against Flair, thought it looked pretty good. It's certainly better than the fucking (makes me) go to sleep.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I like things. I'm just not buying this whole Jericho is god because he was half decent 3 years ago, then got lazy before retiring 2 years ago, but now that he has come back he is amazing. Just because some 6 foot talk 230 something wrestling is good on the mic, I'm not going to start jerking him off for nothing. Jericho is a solid upper mid card worked. Pretending he is awesome doesn't change the fact that he is upper midcard at best.

If you want to see greatness, HBK.

Yeah, because wrestling was saved by HBK. Look, I don't know what you expect of Jericho. The crowds these days are shitty...full stop. They don't pop for anyone, really. The only people who really attend these days are marks (smarks kind of died off, as you can hear by the more favourable reactions Cena was getting), and the last time marks saw Jericho, he was a heel feuding with their hero. It'll take some time before some people warm up to him.

I'd much rather see Jericho do the stuff that got him his reputation in the first place. Sure, let's bring him back with a Bomberman gimmick. That'd fix him.

Jericho never got lazy. Granted, 2002 was not his best year, but no one on RAW was stellar at that time. He then got a lot more interesting, and although somewhat forgotten in the scheme of things, he can't really be considered lazy. There were a lot of great matches he was a part of. It's also rich you calling someone lazy. Aren't we talking about the biggest Kevin Nash fan in the world here?

Also, I'm fairly certain it was you who pointed out that the ratings of a show the week someone returns isn't a good indication of how effective their return actually is. You need to see if more people tune in next week, after hearing about it. Wait until the ratings come out the same this week as last week before you start bitching about him doing nothing. Follow your own fucking advice.

[Mr. Nerfect]

As far as the move goes? I like it. Nowhere near epic enough to replace the Walls of Jericho, but I like the idea of adding it as a third finishing move alongside the Walls and the Lionsault. Stevie Richards has actually been using the move as part of his repertoire. I guess we won't see anymore of that. Although it would be sweet to have Stevie show up, claiming Jericho stole his move, and then have Jericho take Stevie under his wing, Ralphus style.

The move will be a great "out of nowhere" move, like the Stone Cold Stunner. The idea of Jericho performing a flying or springboard variant of the move also gets me wet. Hopefully this doesn't turn out to be another "Breakdown." Remember that?

I'd love to see Jericho hit the Codebreaker, then the Lionsault, followed by locking in the Walls of Jericho. That series would be pretty badass.

[addy2hotty]

The crowd was truly awful from what I could see. Even Hardy and Flair the second time didn't get any sort of reaction. I don't recall any wrestler getting any heat either.

Tards.

[Funky Fly]

Yeah, that crowd definitely sucked the life out of the show.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Crowds these days really just generally suck. I'm not even sure the WWE could trust Toronto to liven things up.

I truly believe that the WWE has forced out passionate fans, and replaced them with "casual fans." You know, the people who won't be watching when they grow out of their John Cena T-shirt.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Gonna go with Yay here. I like it. As said, it can come out of nowhere.

That being said I hope he doesn't abandon the Lionsault and Walls of Jericho</font>

[Gray]

I havent seen this move being done yet, but is this move like the one Gregory Helms performs [performed?]

[Johnny Vegas]

You motherfuckers will never be happy

God, isn't this the truth

[Johnny Vegas]

You motherfuckers will never be happy

God, isn't this the truth

And Alienoid, you should be a Mod. Seriously, not because i agree with you, but you are NOT biased. Like you said, wtf do you expect from the guy? His comeback was the most anticipated in recent years, he is good on the mic, good in the ring, can work the crowd....but THAT is the problem. The crowds DO suck. Not all of them, but many of them do. I was soooo disappointed in the Charlotte fans (since im from NC). If i were at a RAW show, i would have a great ass fucking time, drink beer, and yell or boo at the top of my lungs for just about everybody on that roster. And i don't want to hear that "oh, its not the fans fault, its just not good TV." Ok, then don't pay your hard earned money to attend it if it's so whack. These casuals do not understand the shit that these wrestlers have to go through, man.

But Jericho definitely has got the goods to become a main-eventer now. The problem is that, and i see it coming, Jericho is going to be shoved down our throats because there is NOBODY ELSE stepping up except for Santino, Jeff Hardy, and a couple of others. Not to mention that Carlito is out the door soon, which was a HUGE mistake for the WWE. I really do want Jericho and Santino to fued one day. Their promo last night was god damn classic. If it wasn't for that whack ass crowd, that promo could have had sooooooo much more feeling.

Oh yea, the move. I like it. It could be a finisher, but i'd rather have to ORIGINAL Liontamer. That "field goal" kick to the stomach thing was pretty cool too tbh. I can't believe people have the nerve to bash Jericho when there is NOBODY there that could match him, overall, on that current roster. HBK, in-ring, yes, but you can tell he will be gone probably in a year. Like i said before, and i'll say it again, if Jericho was not shafted back in late 2001-early 2002 and had a respectable title run (and even had an angle going where he kept the title in 2000), then he would be WAY bigger than he is now. Lazy? I wouldn't call it that, i'd call it fed the fuck up. Why do people always label someone as "lazy" when they've either been treated like shit or not booked right? (CARLITO)

[Kane Knight]

IT IS COOL NOT TO LIKE THINGS THAT ARE POPULAR WITH THE MAINSTREAM SO ZOMGGGGGGGG NO IT'S SHIT

In that case, everything in wrestling should get the nod. :roll:

BDC, you have no credibility because you hate everything. Everything is the entire free world is hated by you. I'm not saying that you are incorrect in this particular instance but try smelling some flowers or something.

Another made-up argument by Narcissus. :lol:

Yeah, that crowd definitely sucked the life out of the show.


That's kind of a chicken-and-egg-argument though, init?

[Kane Knight]

On the topic of Jericho's new move, I'm glad to see that Malibu Stacy has a new hat.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, because wrestling was saved by HBK.

I never said HBK is going to save wrestling. I merely said that if you want greatness, look to HBK.

Also, I didn't bother reading the rest, figured it had something to do with Val being champion.

[XL]

Someone give me video!

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, I'm fairly certain it was you who pointed out that the ratings of a show the week someone returns isn't a good indication of how effective their return actually is. You need to see if more people tune in next week, after hearing about it. Wait until the ratings come out the same this week as last week before you start bitching about him doing nothing. Follow your own fucking advice.

Yes I did point out the ratings were weak. There is a slight difference from someone unexpectedly coming back and Jericho's return. The Save_us.222 videos have been airing for months before annoucing the exact date this mysterous stranger was coming to save wrestling. And no one cared. Now if that that is Jericho's or WWE's fault, that remains to be seen. But the fact is everyone knew something big was suppose to be happening last Monday and they still choose not to tune in.

[Nark Order]

Another made-up argument by Narcissus. :lol:

And another hipocracy by KK. Honestly friend, if you're going to make a claim that nothing that I say has any substance it would probably be a good idea to stop doing the same thing. All you ever do is blame people for doing the same things you do yourself, only you do them more so and without finesse. It's a shame that you have so many posts and about 90% of them are quick, terrible, unsubstantial one liners that ultimately fail in their objective to cover up your unintelligence and lack of logic.

[BigDaddyCool]

And another hipocracy by KK. Honestly friend, if you're going to make a claim that nothing that I say has any substance it would probably be a good idea to stop doing the same thing. All you ever do is blame people for doing the same things you do yourself, only you do them more so and without finesse. It's a shame that you have so many posts and about 90% of them are quick, terrible, unsubstantial one liners that ultimately fail in their objective to cover up your unintelligence and lack of logic.

Yeah, but you see KK was backing me up so he was right. :foc:

[Nark Order]

Oh, right. My bad.

[Kane Knight]

Yes I did point out the ratings were weak. There is a slight difference from someone unexpectedly coming back and Jericho's return. The Save_us.222 videos have been airing for months before annoucing the exact date this mysterous stranger was coming to save wrestling. And no one cared. Now if that that is Jericho's or WWE's fault, that remains to be seen. But the fact is everyone knew something big was suppose to be happening last Monday and they still choose not to tune in.

I'm gonna wait and see the real ratings before I start saying they were weak, but yes. with them hyping a return "Next Week," the ratings should have already been impacted.

[.44 Magdalene]

I love these arguments.

Narcissus: Something ambiguous!

KK: What you're saying is ambiguous!

Narcissus: Ambiguous statement about you pointing out the ambiguity of my statement!

[Extreme Angle]

I'm gonna say yay, but a different name maybe, Y2Jacked Yo Face or something stupid, code breaker is just pathetic

[Kane Knight]

And another hipocracy by KK. Honestly friend, if you're going to make a claim that nothing that I say has any substance it would probably be a good idea to stop doing the same thing.

Narc, that's not what I said. Why do you feel so compelled to make up others' arguments for them? Are you simply not smart enough to actually understand what's being said, so you try and fill in the blanks?

[BigDaddyCool]

I'm gonna wait and see the real ratings before I start saying they were weak, but yes. with them hyping a return "Next Week," the ratings should have already been impacted.

It was even just "next week." It was at least 2 solid months of hype, then a full week of heavy promotions that something huge and awesome (possibly y2j related) was going to happen on the November 19th edition of Raw at 10, 9 central!

[Kane Knight]

It was even just "next week." It was at least 2 solid months of hype, then a full week of heavy promotions that something huge and awesome (possibly y2j related) was going to happen on the November 19th edition of Raw at 10, 9 central!

My point was more that it was specifically that they had kind of, you know, removed all doubt. At this point, it's pretty much impossible to dub it a "surprise," since there's no real doubt in "Next Week." Especially when King parrots it.

[Nark Order]

KK, let's get real. That's all you ever do. Somebody says something that hurts you, you make believe that it didn't count because the person saying it is a moron or something, they continue to hurt you, you say something like "Nice one" or whatever else, and the cycle continues forever.

[Mr Regal]

I think you boys are forgetting that nobody likes wresling anymore...I think the ratings went up in the last segment of Raw last week as much as anyone with two brain cells to rub together could have expected.

Jericho being back is awesome, becasue he is awesome. Will he improve the ratings, probably not. Will anything improve the ratings...probably not

The new finisher was pretty good.

[Kane Knight]

KK, let's get real. That's all you ever do. Somebody says something that hurts you, you make believe that it didn't count because the person saying it is a moron or something, they continue to hurt you, you say something like "Nice one" or whatever else, and the cycle continues forever.

I rarely every say something like "nice one."

You're just making up my argument again.

Honestly, why do you do it? You really do seem quick to make claims of what people do when they don't, put words in their mouths, etc. In the process, you tend to show off how little you comprehend.

[Nark Order]

I wasn't using what you were saying word for word. It was simply an example of how you blow people off when they are clearly shining when in comparison to you. My apologies for assuming that you would be able to figure that out, it won't happen again. I've put no words in your mouth whatsoever nor have I claimed you do things that you don't do. My first statement was ridiculing you for making my statements seem empty and without substance while you do the same things yourself. If that isn't what you were trying to say then that is clearly your fault because it came out that way. Learn to express yourself a little better. Not that I don't expect terrible social skills from a guy that has over 100k posts on a wrestling message board, but at least TRY to break the stereotype for your sake.

[.44 Magdalene]

I like that the immediate response to having one's baseless generalizations called out is to make more baseless generalizations.

ALL BDC DOES IS HATE

AND ALL KK DOES IS CRY, BE SNIDE AND GAIN WEIGHT

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[.44 Magdalene]

Also, Narc's having to take whole paragraphs to respond to KK's one lines and handfuls of assholery. If you can't get your point across without writing a short play, wouldn't you have trouble expressing yourself?

[.44 Magdalene]

I wasn't using what you were saying word for word. It was simply an example of how you blow people off when they are clearly shining when in comparison to you. My apologies for assuming that you would be able to figure that out, it won't happen again.

"You can't understand me and it's your fault."

...If that isn't what you were trying to say then that is clearly your fault because it came out that way. Learn to express yourself a little better.

"If I can't understand you, it's also your fault."

[Nark Order]

I'm failing to see how me getting my points across in a rational, thought provoking manner is an indication that I have trouble expressing myself. Interesting hypothesis though.

[Kane Knight]

I like that the immediate response to having one's baseless generalizations called out is to make more baseless generalizations.

ALL BDC DOES IS HATE

AND ALL KK DOES IS CRY, BE SNIDE AND GAIN WEIGHT

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Also, Narc's having to take whole paragraphs to respond to KK's one lines and handfuls of assholery. If you can't get your point across without writing a short play, wouldn't you have trouble expressing yourself?

"You can't understand me and it's your fault."



"If I can't understand you, it's also your fault."

Critic's basically made my argument for me. Making my response even shorter than I needed it to be.

[Nark Order]

"You can't understand me and it's your fault."



"If I can't understand you, it's also your fault."

Two different scenarios. You can take things out of context if you'd like if that's what you need to do. Not a problem. The difference is that I have no problems getting my point across.

[.44 Magdalene]

I'm failing to see how me getting my points across in a rational, thought provoking manner is an indication that I have trouble expressing myself. Interesting hypothesis though.

Thought provoking? Isn't that a little egotistical?

Or does not being KK somehow make you incapable of being an egotistical prick?

Really, I'm not sure your "No, you did it" style of repeating yourself can be defined as "rational," either. I don't know what it is with you people and burden of proof, but generally, you need to find sources and evidence before making crazy claims... especially when there's evidence to the contrary in the same goddamn thread. Prime example:

Did KK blow you off earlier?

Or did he point out that you were making a baseless and rather wild generalization without going into a fucking novel?

I saw the latter, but then again, it was pretty fucking obvious. I don't know, maybe you're going into the Alienoid flavor of emotional attachment blinding you to the inherant point, but holy shit! He did actually have a point in there. Instead of realizing that an active and sensical criticism was being indicated by that snide remark, though, all you saw was "OMG KK IS MAKING FUN OF MEEEE."

But y'know. Terrible social skills and all that other bullshit.

The only "rational, thought provoking" points I see here involve you flailing to grab KK's E-Balls, because God only knows you can't defend the fact that you did make a wild, baseless statement, followed by another, followed by a-fucking-nother.

[.44 Magdalene]

Two different scenarios. You can take things out of context if you'd like if that's what you need to do. Not a problem. The difference is that I have no problems getting my point across.

Yeah, two different scenarios.

One statement typed by you, one statement typed by KK. Misinterpretation from either side somehow falls squarely on his shoulders in both instances, and there's no human possible fucking way that any misinterpretation could possibly be your fucking fault because...

...why, again? Oh, right. You said so. Your social skills are infalliable, and your points are thought provoking.

[Kane Knight]

Or did he point out that you were making a baseless and rather wild generalization without going into a fucking novel?

I think you may be on to something, there.

More to the point, you addressed what I said without making up some completely unrelated nonsense to do so.

[Nark Order]

Thought provoking? Isn't that a little egotistical?

Or does not being KK somehow make you incapable of being an egotistical prick?

Really, I'm not sure your "No, you did it" style of repeating yourself can be defined as "rational," either. I don't know what it is with you people and burden of proof, but generally, you need to find sources and evidence before making crazy claims... especially when there's evidence to the contrary in the same goddamn thread. Prime example:

Did KK blow you off earlier?

Or did he point out that you were making a baseless and rather wild generalization without going into a fucking novel?

I saw the latter, but then again, it was pretty fucking obvious. I don't know, maybe you're going into the Alienoid flavor of emotional attachment blinding you to the inherant point, but holy shit! He did actually have a point in there. Instead of realizing that an active and sensical criticism was being indicated by that snide remark, though, all you saw was "OMG KK IS MAKING FUN OF MEEEE."

But y'know. Terrible social skills and all that other bullshit.

The only "rational, thought provoking" points I see here involve you flailing to grab KK's E-Balls, because God only knows you can't defend the fact that you did make a wild, baseless statement, followed by another, followed by a-fucking-nother.

The fact that you bolded your text makes you right. Listen, I never claimed to be or not be anything. I am myself all the time. If you find me to be a tad on the egotistical side then that's your judgement to make. Yes, when I argue with KK or anybody I find myself to be right in all instances. Irrational it may seem to you but why in the fuck would I say it if I didn't think I was right? If you go into arguements knowing that you're wrong but still trying to convince the masses that you are correct then that is entirely your deal but I don't do business that way. Anyway, by your standards I shouldn't even be taking this post seriously due to the fact that you most likely have trouble expressing yourself since you made such a long post. Or does that only apply to me? Guess I'm not the only one that contradicts myself, eh?

[BigDaddyCool]

The fact is all 3 of you are boring me now. You are all wrong.

[Stickman]

I like it

[Kane Knight]

The fact that you bolded your text makes you right. Listen, I never claimed to be or not be anything. I am myself all the time. If you find me to be a tad on the egotistical side then that's your judgement to make. Yes, when I argue with KK or anybody I find myself to be right in all instances. Irrational it may seem to you but why in the fuck would I say it if I didn't think I was right? If you go into arguements knowing that you're wrong but still trying to convince the masses that you are correct then that is entirely your deal but I don't do business that way. Anyway, by your standards I shouldn't even be taking this post seriously due to the fact that you most likely have trouble expressing yourself since you made such a long post. Or does that only apply to me? Guess I'm not the only one that contradicts myself, eh?

Wow. fucking run-on.

By the way, I get that you think you're right. I get that you think your argument is legit. The fact is, you're wrong. You made a blatantly false accusation against BDC, and when someone called you on making up said argument, you responded with more blatantly incorrect and generalised statements.

Or, in a shorter form, you're an idiot who's ranting because he wasn't smart enough to understand the cricicism levied against him. Can you dedicate a novel to that?

[Nark Order]

I accused BDC of nothing. I gave him my opinion. In my view, almost everything that comes out of his mouth is negative. I could find some evidence to support my case if I thought that it would help. However; you seem to be a bit too stubborn to admit that personal opinions and accusations are two completely different things.

On a side note: If you would like to keep argueing I'll argue all day.

[Kane Knight]

I accused BDC of nothing. I gave him my opinion. In my view, almost everything that comes out of his mouth is negative. I could find some evidence to support my case if I thought that it would help. However; you seem to be a bit too stubborn to admit that personal opinions and accusations are two completely different things.

On a side note: If you would like to keep argueing I'll argue all day.

Oh God. You're actually playing the opinion card on this one. How droll. Not only ridiculous given what you actually said, but in no way changes the fact that your argument against me in response was utter bullshit.

[BigDaddyCool]

I accused BDC of nothing. I gave him my opinion. In my view, almost everything that comes out of his mouth is negative. I could find some evidence to support my case if I thought that it would help. However; you seem to be a bit too stubborn to admit that personal opinions and accusations are two completely different things.

On a side note: If you would like to keep argueing I'll argue all day.

1) How do you know that everything that comes out of my mouth is negative, you've never heard me talk.

2)Assuming you meant everything I type is neagtive, again you are wrong. Just everything about this Jericho run is negative because I'm unimpressed. I've been very possitve about Scott Hall coming back to TNA. So there.

3) I assume the rest is directed at Kane Knight or Critic.

[Nark Order]

See, the funny things about opinions KK is that everybody has one. Whether or not you actually labeled it as an opinion, you've already stated yours. Thus playing the opinion card.

My opinion: You over dramatisize everything to try to make the person that you're talking to sound crazy because you have trouble defending yourself otherwise.

Your opinion: That I make wild accusations and come up with bullshit excuses to back them up.

It is very unlikely that we'll prove each other right... But as long as you want to keep going, I'm game.

[.44 Magdalene]

The fact that you bolded your text makes you right.

...Are you making fun of me for using emphasis? After bitching about communication problems?

Listen, I never claimed to be or not be anything. I am myself all the time. If you find me to be a tad on the egotistical side then that's your judgement to make.

You claimed rather outright that your points are thought provoking. How is that a judgement call? How is that not egotistical? You're trying to dodge the fact that I called your bullshit by being profound, and it's coming off as... well, dodgy.



Yes, when I argue with KK or anybody I find myself to be right in all instances. Irrational it may seem to you but why in the fuck would I say it if I didn't think I was right? If you go into arguements knowing that you're wrong but still trying to convince the masses that you are correct then that is entirely your deal but I don't do business that way.

But then when ample evidence to the contrary arises, you adamantly stick to your guns and refuse to see any other side of the story. If someone points out that you're wrong, and you can't refute it, don't immediately try and demean their person as a retort. If you make a mistake, man the fuck up to it... and seeing as you're going on a big rant about how you think that you personally are right, I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're having some doubts.

Anyway, by your standards I shouldn't even be taking this post seriously due to the fact that you most likely have trouble expressing yourself since you made such a long post. Or does that only apply to me? Guess I'm not the only one that contradicts myself, eh?

I want you to reflect for a moment. I want you to look, long and hard. I want you to realize how many massive run-ons it takes you to express one point. Now realize that when I type alot, I'm actually making multiple, smaller points. Do you see that? Okay, good. Wit does not become you. Stop trying to attempt it.

I accused BDC of nothing. I gave him my opinion. In my view, almost everything that comes out of his mouth is negative.

Please, don't do this. I really don't want to resort to defaming your intelligence, but this is outright ridiculous. Your exact words--and I quote, because that's how I do business--were as follows:

BDC, you have no credibility because you hate everything. Everything is the entire free world is hated by you.

Congratulations, that is not actually an opinion. That's a statement as if it were fact. If you want to keep trying to pretend that it's an opinion, by all means. You're either desperate to win, or you're completely fucking clueless as to what defines an opinion. It's amply evident that you're talking out of your ass now, and trying to sound detached while clinging to any hope of being in the right. You're making every point count to try and justify yourself. It's more than evident that you have nothing left in the deck, and just don't want to admit that your bullshit has been called, and repeatedly.

Goodnight, everybody.

[BigDaddyCool]

I would like to point out I love the free world, thus proving Narc completely wrong.

[Nark Order]

Did I come out and say that everybody in the world thinks that BDC hates everything? No, I did not. I do not find it necessary to label everything as an opinion or a fact because I didn't think that the debate would ever come up. I am under the impression that I can be held accountable for everything I say because unless I am quoting a direct source or unless I am giving evidence to prove something, everything I say is simply an opinion. It was an exageration to make a point.

Point: Of course he doesn't like it because in my experience he is very negative about most everything he talks about on these boards. Whichs leads me to judge him and form an OPINION.

Do I really believe that BDC hates everything in the entire world? Of course I don't. But feel free to overanalyze.

[BigDaddyCool]

Do I really believe that BDC hates everything in the entire world? Of course I don't. But feel free to overanalyze.

If you don't believe it, why did you say it?

[Nark Order]

It was an exaggeration to make a point.

[BigDaddyCool]

Oh, so you lied?

[Nark Order]

No, it was a literary technique. I don't expect you to understand anything past the learning level of a 6th grader though so I'm not offended by your incompetence.

[BigDaddyCool]

No, it was a literary technique. I don't expect you to understand anything past the learning level of a 6th grader though so I'm not offended by your incompetence.

I'm still smarter than a 5th grader. That is all the really matters :cool:

But the point is. I hate Jericho and his overrated ass. K4L.

[Nark Order]

Eh, I don't hate the man. I think he's good for business for the most part. His return could've been more spectactular but it also could've really sucked so I'm happy. Just happy to have the guy back whether he's in the main event or whether he's in the midcard.

[BigDaddyCool]

Eh, I don't hate the man. I think he's good for business for the most part. His return could've been more spectactular but it also could've really sucked so I'm happy. Just happy to have the guy back whether he's in the main event or whether he's in the midcard.

Good thing because he will be busted back down to midcard soon enough with his gay little codebreaker.

[Johnny Vegas]

So.....that CodeBreaker move was pretty sweet.

[Nark Order]

Probably on RAW. But surely he is good enough for the Smackdown main event scene.

[BigDaddyCool]

Probably on RAW. But surely he is good enough for the Smackdown main event scene.

No, only Batista is good enough for the mainevent scene on Smackdown. :roll:

[Nark Order]

For those of you that didn't see it... it's around the 3:50 mark.

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[BigDaddyCool]

It lookes like he is wearing penstriped umpire pants.

[DAMN iNATOR]

It’s a blatant rip-off of the backcracker, just like Xero said, only with knees to the face instead of the back/spine, so therefore, I voted Nay. Hopefully he’ll at least be allowed to still use the Walls of Jericho. I mean, it’d be pretty stupid considering it’s just one of many moves that the fans of his know so well.

[Rammsteinmad]

Nice.

It's certainly no Walls of Jericho or Lionsault, but it's still a pretty nice move. Santino sold it really nicely as well.

[Skull316]

Nice.

It's certainly no Walls of Jericho or Lionsault, but it's still a pretty nice move. Santino sold it really nicely as well.

If only Rock or Scott Hall were around, they could sell that like the stunner!

[Jeritron]

HHH sold the best stunner ever

[Jeritron]

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[Kane Knight]

See, the funny things about opinions KK is that everybody has one. Whether or not you actually labeled it as an opinion, you've already stated yours. Thus playing the opinion card.

My opinion: You over dramatisize everything to try to make the person that you're talking to sound crazy because you have trouble defending yourself otherwise.

Your opinion: That I make wild accusations and come up with bullshit excuses to back them up.

It is very unlikely that we'll prove each other right... But as long as you want to keep going, I'm game.

Basically, you're trying to back out of an argument in the least intelligent way possible. Not only doing that, but you've still really not addressed that you had the wrong fucking argument in mind the whole time (Making mine up for me), and making yourself a hypocrite for essentially demeaning my opinion, that which you falsely accused me of doing. Good job.

Did I come out and say that everybody in the world thinks that BDC hates everything? No, I did not. I do not find it necessary to label everything as an opinion or a fact because I didn't think that the debate would ever come up. I am under the impression that I can be held accountable for everything I say because unless I am quoting a direct source or unless I am giving evidence to prove something, everything I say is simply an opinion. It was an exageration to make a point.

Point: Of course he doesn't like it because in my experience he is very negative about most everything he talks about on these boards. Whichs leads me to judge him and form an OPINION.

Do I really believe that BDC hates everything in the entire world? Of course I don't. But feel free to overanalyze.

Oh for fuck's sake.

No, it was a literary technique. I don't expect you to understand anything past the learning level of a 6th grader though so I'm not offended by your incompetence.

:lol: The irony burns.

Nice.

It's certainly no Walls of Jericho or Lionsault, but it's still a pretty nice move. Santino sold it really gay as well.

Fixed.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm gonna wait and see the real ratings before I start saying they were weak, but yes. with them hyping a return "Next Week," the ratings should have already been impacted.

LOL. This is coming from the guy who thought the videos meant nothing at all, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It was even just "next week." It was at least 2 solid months of hype, then a full week of heavy promotions that something huge and awesome (possibly y2j related) was going to happen on the November 19th edition of Raw at 10, 9 central!

Where are these people going to come from, though? I'm not saying the ratings are going to be huge with Jericho, but I'm just asking, what can you realistically expect? If 3.5 million people watch RAW one week, 3.5 million people know about what happened. Sure, word spreads, but you can't that number to perform mitosis on the week of a guy's debut. The crowd has to come from somewhere. Jericho is more likely to entice people flicking over to come back, and he might gradually get some older viewers back.

The whole "saving" thing is from a storyline perspective, anyway. As far as smarks literally hailing him as the saviour of the WWE, well that is more a quality perspective than one referring to wrestling's image within mainstream society. How many times do people need to say that Jericho is just a damn fine wrestler and damn entertaining personality that is exciting to watch on RAW? People were never really expecting massive changes, just at least one segment a week that is worth watching, and thus far Jericho has done that.

[Mr. Nerfect]

"You can't understand me and it's your fault."



"If I can't understand you, it's also your fault."

It's funny that KK's arguments are pretty much the same. He says something with no substance to it. Like "Are you stupid, or is your mother just on crack?" You know, something that doesn't even contain an ounce of wit, and just furthers his image of a wannabe Dr. Cox without the chiseled body. There is no point in there, and you ask him what the fuck his point is, and he dances around it. "Boy, you are special!" That's not exactly making an argument.

Also, KK is king of the straw-man argument. He's done it here with Narc (without actually responding to Narc's points, just saying he makes stuff up), he did it with CM Punk getting chanted over DX and The Hardys (I still don't even know how he could be stupid enough to argue against this...it happened), and there's his "Paul Burchill's Armbar" thing which completely misses the point. They're not it, but they're my personal favourites.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The fact is all 3 of you are boring me now. You are all wrong.

:lol:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wow. fucking run-on.

By the way, I get that you think you're right. I get that you think your argument is legit. The fact is, you're wrong. You made a blatantly false accusation against BDC, and when someone called you on making up said argument, you responded with more blatantly incorrect and generalised statements.

Or, in a shorter form, you're an idiot who's ranting because he wasn't smart enough to understand the cricicism levied against him. Can you dedicate a novel to that?

:rofl: The irony here is brilliant.

First you make fun of him for his sentence structure (I assume, or else you are using poetic licence, and that itself would be ironic, considering you tore into Narc for using that in his original post). Whenever someone tries that against you, I'm pretty sure you belittle them for going to such desperate means of attack.

I can't be the only one who thinks that you guys getting your period over Narc's original post is damn idiotic? Everyone on hear makes those kind of assumptions with people. For example, Tovo is going to say something cockish, I'm going to praise Val Venis, KK is going to say something sarcastic without nearly as much substance to it as he thinks. BDC pretty much does act like he hates everything that isn't Kliq in wrestling, and I think he would be the first to admit that.

Yeah, he exagerrated. Heaven forbid anyone ever use hyperbole. God knows KK has never done it in his life, have you, KK? Honestly, calling him out for "made up arguments" is just short-bus stuff.

[Gray]

Looking at it, it does look like it is similar [The same?] as Gregory Helm's move when he was active on Smackdown.

Although i think with Helms he did actually only use one knee, as opposed to two knees. Hope he doesnt drop the Liontamer, although he'll probably keep that as his submission move i guess...

[.44 Magdalene]

LOL. This is coming from the guy who thought the videos meant nothing at all, and shouldn't be taken seriously.


It probably is Jericho, BTW. I'm not saying it isn't.

It's just that people are making of "facts" and connections that aren't there. ... Some of these connections are really, really lame. The style of promo, however, is very much similar.

Shutupshutupshutupshutup. This is the second fucking time I've had to post this same quote from September 26th in direct response to you. Don't just ignore it and act like the "KK DIDN'T BELIEVE JERICHO WAS HAPPENING" card still plays.

Narc didn't admit it was exaggeration until he was cornered, and before that, he claimed it was an opinion, and before that, he was flailing at KK instead of justifying the damn statement in the first place. A simple "I was exaggerating :roll:" would have sufficed as an immediate response, but instead, he danced around original intent for two pages. I'm calling bullshit.

Also, do me a favor. Don't do five fucking posts in a row that all serve no purpose besides rehashing old stages of the argument (especially with no evidence, no quotes, no sources, nothing but "I recall" and "pretty much always". If the above Jericho example is any indication, then sometimes what you think KK commonly does is just fucking wrong. Also, if I can do multiple quotes in one post, so the fuck can you. There's no need for me to have to read upwards of four posts for one opinion.

I'm not even responding to most of that shit, no matter how fucking dumb it might be. Most of the things you responded to have already been resolved. 80% of this argument has already been resolved, you just felt the need to roll in twenty minutes late and pitch in your two cents on KK's background.

[Shaggy]

I say nay....

I like the name because it fits with his current gimmick...but the movie itself is kinda dumb. Maybe I should give it a few more weeks before I judge because the movie really didnt look that clean on Raw. Maybe Next week it will look a little better.

[.44 Magdalene]

I still don't understand what the current gimmick is supposed to be. It's like if HHH named a new move after the King of Kings shtick.


I don't get what the point iiiiiis.

[Kane Knight]

LOL. This is coming from the guy who thought the videos meant nothing at all, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Alienoid, you're simply not smart enough to understand the argument.

That's all. If you think that I thought the videos meant nothing at all, and shouldn't be taken seriously, you didn't understand a single thing I said. I'm sorry that your educational system failed you or your parents weren't smart enough to teach you criticial thinking, but for all your bitching, you just don't get how stupid you sound to any thinking person.

[Kane Knight]

If the above Jericho example is any indication, then sometimes what you think KK commonly does is just fucking wrong.

Commonly what Alienoid thinks I commonly do is wrong.

Alienoid needs things broken down simply for him. If I don't do it, explicitly and continuously, he makes up his own meaning on my behalf. It's common of the current generation who has had their thoughts so processed for them.

Among other things, he immediately believes that if I don't agree with him 100%, then I must disagree with him 100%.

Alienoid's stances on me are rarely based on anything other than the fact that I disagree with him, in whole or in part, and think he's a halfwit. This will come back up again in a week or two. Alienoid thinks I am "wrong" on Jericho, and so he will bring it up, no matter how often it is explained to him, because he will "forget" about it two minutes later. I say "forget" in quotes because I don't entirely know what's going on in his mind, so it could be that he's disregarding it because it's inconvenient with his predetermined notion. Could be a lot of things, actually, but it boils down to the same thing, and tomorrow, this will all come up again. He doesn't get it, and he never will.

[BigDaddyCool]

Where are these people going to come from, though? I'm not saying the ratings are going to be huge with Jericho, but I'm just asking, what can you realistically expect? If 3.5 million people watch RAW one week, 3.5 million people know about what happened. Sure, word spreads, but you can't that number to perform mitosis on the week of a guy's debut. The crowd has to come from somewhere. Jericho is more likely to entice people flicking over to come back, and he might gradually get some older viewers back.

The whole "saving" thing is from a storyline perspective, anyway. As far as smarks literally hailing him as the saviour of the WWE, well that is more a quality perspective than one referring to wrestling's image within mainstream society. How many times do people need to say that Jericho is just a damn fine wrestler and damn entertaining personality that is exciting to watch on RAW? People were never really expecting massive changes, just at least one segment a week that is worth watching, and thus far Jericho has done that.

From what I understand rating dipped down on the episode Jericho came back.

[Corkscrewed]

ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE

[.44 Magdalene]

Damn you, Corkscrewed. Lookin' so smug in your Yahoo! avatar.

Bastard.










I have to say the move would look alot less retarded if he didn't do the giant "OMG GONNA DO A FINISHER" pose in front of it. That shit irritates me. I hated it when Edge started doing the "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon" motion before the spear, too. You do not need a beckoning motion or a signal before every fucking finisher, and for a move that hits that suddenly, it'd be a helluvalot cooler if he didn't phone it in.

[Kane Knight]

You know, I have to agree there.

What's the point of having an "out of nowhere" move if you're going to advertise it?

But I agree with a disclaimer: he did it like that one time so far. I mean, that's 100% of the time, but it's a very small sample. If he doesn't do it every time, it won't matter.

By the way, I said I'd wait until the ratings were out for last week and I did: Raw drew hours of 3.0 and 3.0. Ratings for the top hour are down, as well as number of viewers.

The "surprise return" was advertised, and it didn't pay off.

[Kane Knight]

From what I understand rating dipped down on the episode Jericho came back.

Ratings dipped. And ignore what 'Noid said about ratings. Ratings will change notably when the fans care. You can see half point spikes in ratings with less hype than SAVE_US received. Word of Mouth (Or something similar) does work. It's true.

And word of mouth had so much impact on the ratings that they lost like half a million viewers. Okay, like 400K. But still.

I can think of a few conclusions, but the one that's most appropriate is that people didn't care. Other possibilities exist, but the one I would definitely preclude is limited reaction due to word of mouth. Especially since it was so obvious.Going by the logic that Alienoid keeps pushing forth. This is in black because I know he'll use it against me.
:yes:

[BigDaddyCool]

Ratings dipped. And ignore what 'Noid said about ratings. Ratings will change notably when the fans care. You can see half point spikes in ratings with less hype than SAVE_US received. Word of Mouth (Or something similar) does work. It's true.

And word of mouth had so much impact on the ratings that they lost like half a million viewers. Okay, like 400K. But still.

I can think of a few conclusions, but the one that's most appropriate is that people didn't care. Other possibilities exist, but the one I would definitely preclude is limited reaction due to word of mouth. Especially since it was so obvious.Going by the logic that Alienoid keeps pushing forth. This is in black because I know he'll use it against me.
:yes:


Wait, so basicly you are saying I'm right?

[BigDaddyCool]

For those of you that didn't see it... it's around the 3:50 mark.

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That match sucks.

[Innovator]

You know, I have to agree there.

What's the point of having an "out of nowhere" move if you're going to advertise it?

But I agree with a disclaimer: he did it like that one time so far. I mean, that's 100% of the time, but it's a very small sample. If he doesn't do it every time, it won't matter.

By the way, I said I'd wait until the ratings were out for last week and I did: Raw drew hours of 3.0 and 3.0. Ratings for the top hour are down, as well as number of viewers.

The "surprise return" was advertised, and it didn't pay off.
Yeah I don't like when people call for their finisher, but the first time it was kinda necessary to get the point that it's his new move. But two months in if he keeps doing it then it's annoying.

While on the subject of advertising moves, when Orton does the rolling and fist pounding before the RKO...does he ever hit it?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Alienoid, you're simply not smart enough to understand the argument.

That's all. If you think that I thought the videos meant nothing at all, and shouldn't be taken seriously, you didn't understand a single thing I said. I'm sorry that your educational system failed you or your parents weren't smart enough to teach you criticial thinking, but for all your bitching, you just don't get how stupid you sound to any thinking person.

No, you just duck into a sarcastic shell when you are wrong. You said the videos were meant to lead us on, and that nothing can be extracted for certain from them. Turning around and saying that they pointed to an exact date, just because in retrospect they did, is damn hypocritical of you. But no, KK can never be wrong. Despite the the fact that he's nothing in the world.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ratings dipped. And ignore what 'Noid said about ratings. Ratings will change notably when the fans care. You can see half point spikes in ratings with less hype than SAVE_US received. Word of Mouth (Or something similar) does work. It's true.

And word of mouth had so much impact on the ratings that they lost like half a million viewers. Okay, like 400K. But still.

I can think of a few conclusions, but the one that's most appropriate is that people didn't care. Other possibilities exist, but the one I would definitely preclude is limited reaction due to word of mouth. Especially since it was so obvious.Going by the logic that Alienoid keeps pushing forth. This is in black because I know he'll use it against me.
:yes:


People didn't care about the video promos. They did strongly point to Jericho, but they also went on for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. Did ratings dip the week after they originally aired? I just can't imagine people seeing "next week" and then saying "well I'm not going to tune in this one time when everything is going to be revealed!"

It's also pretty lazy to place the low rating on a guy who wasn't even back with the company. I'd tend to buy the trend after Jericho's return then the one-off rating of his (somewhat) ambiguous return.

[Mr. Nerfect]

From what I understand rating dipped down on the episode Jericho came back.

But did you not once make the point that the effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, but the effect it has the following week. That is, people hear about Jericho's return (as many people I know did) after it happened, and then watch the following week if they are interested?

I still maintain that this week's rating will be much more indicative of the draw Jericho is. I doubt he is a draw (at least, not in the Stone Cold Steve Austin, Rock, Hulk Hogan sense), but I don't expect him to send the WWE into a downward spiral, either.

[Jeritron]

Nobody honestly thought he was gonna save the WWE. For me personally, he has. But generally speaking I never thought he'd blow in the door and start turning out 6.5 ratings on his own. Still, I speak for myself and I think other fans as well when I say I kinda play along with it. It's a gimmick and entertainment. "Jerichos coming to save us tonight." and so on.

He's not going to send the ratings through the roof, but he's not going to hurt them. He's nothing more or less than a great addition to the promotions roster who a) is entertaining as hell AND can work matches b) is a well liked star from the attitude era and former champion, and lends credibility, c) happens to be many peoples favorite wrestler, d) can play face and heel amazingly e) is going to help the company.
Save, no. Help, hell yes.

Oh and the Santino match and segment didn't suck. They weren't his best in either department (match or promo) but they weren't by any stretch of the imagination bad.

The bitching is absurd really. He's the goods still. His return was all it should have been, it's not his fault if his supporting cast and crowd aren't up to par anymore. Give him some time. And he's already had one great segment. He's coming for the title, what else could people have really wanted here?

[Jeritron]

And as for, "It wasn't as good as the first one"..what is really? That was his first time entering the WWE. People didn't know what his vignettes and music were, or what the countdown meant.
This was obviously him from the get go, and for anyone in that arena or watching at home that didn't know it was him already, they knew the second it said Y2J and played his countdown before he came out.

It was impossible for it to garner the same response. It's not the original and it wasn't the same suprise/debut. It was an announced return.

As for it not being as good or original, has anyone thought about how it was Randy Orton standing being interrupted at a 2007 Raw as opposed to THE ROCK at a 1999 Raw?

[.44 Magdalene]

Yeah I don't like when people call for their finisher, but the first time it was kinda necessary to get the point that it's his new move.

I would say the commentators could have done that, but I'd be wrong. :-\ Jim would've mentioned "a resoundin' thud from that modified backbreaker" and that'd be the end of it.

Edit: Deleted my second shpeal in favor of something potentially more humorous.

I doubt he is a draw (at least, not in the Stone Cold Steve Austin, Rock, Hulk Hogan sense), but I don't expect him to send the WWE into a downward spiral, either.

Who the fuck said he'd hurt ratings? I haven't seen anybody say anything except that he simply won't make a difference.

[.44 Magdalene]

You said the videos were meant to lead us on, and that nothing can be extracted for certain from them. Turning around and saying that they pointed to an exact date, just because in retrospect they did, is damn hypocritical of you.

...No, nevermind. I got nothing.



I can't honestly figure out at which point Kane Knight declared a video that said 'NEXT_MONDAY' as being ambiguous.

I mean, Alienoid has.

But nah. I can't find a damn spot anywhere on the forum where KK's like "Next Monday? Bullshit." Yeah, there's the quote about the facts and connections that aren't there, and people overthinking and reading into it too much...

...but common sense dictates that he didn't mean the big, bold, motherfuckin' NEXT_MONDAY when he said that, especially since that quote was from before then.

Am I wrong in implying that we use common sense? I mean, this is a pretty fucking simple concept, guys. Or demanding that Alienoid post where KK apparently said this shit?

Show me some chronologically topical sources for a fuckin' change, and I'll get off your nuts 'Noid. But fuck, if every single point you make is going to be a reference to an older argument, then at least be ready to whip out those arguments. Jesus.

[Dave Youell]

Can we get some kind of court order to keep Noid and KK at least 5 threads apart, like a restraining order or something?

[thedamndest]

I like the pose before the move. It makes it look like he's gonna unleash a Hadouken or something.

[.44 Magdalene]

I like the pose before the move. It makes it look like he's gonna confuse everyone by doing his entrance again.

[BigDaddyCool]

But did you not once make the point that the effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, but the effect it has the following week. That is, people hear about Jericho's return (as many people I know did) after it happened, and then watch the following week if they are interested?

I still maintain that this week's rating will be much more indicative of the draw Jericho is. I doubt he is a draw (at least, not in the Stone Cold Steve Austin, Rock, Hulk Hogan sense), but I don't expect him to send the WWE into a downward spiral, either.

I did once make the point that you suck, I mean that effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, if it was a suprise event. Jericho's return was hardly a suprise. For 2 fucking months they hyped the shit out of someone returning and when. The rating should have been slightly up if not staying on par with the previous week if people gave a shit about this Jericho guy.

And I still maintain you suck. :mad:

[BigDaddyCool]

Who the fuck said he'd hurt ratings? I haven't seen anybody say anything except that he simply won't make a difference.

I kinda did. :$ I said I hope he kills the rating and get fired or something.

[Nark Order]

Wow, Critic and KK are still going? I would've thought that their supply of nonsensical idiocy would have run out a page or two ago. Thoroughly impressed am I.

[Kane Knight]

Wait, so basicly you are saying I'm right?Quite.

Yeah I don't like when people call for their finisher, but the first time it was kinda necessary to get the point that it's his new move. But two months in if he keeps doing it then it's annoying.

While on the subject of advertising moves, when Orton does the rolling and fist pounding before the RKO...does he ever hit it?

Yeah, I'll give it time.

No, you just duck into a sarcastic shell when you are wrong.

Except you're lying or retarded. You're making up an argument that I did not claim, and trying to say that I'm being sarcastic and can't admit to being wrong with things I never said. I understand that you and Narc aren't particularly bright, but making up my argument for me and then being pissy because I won't own up to things only said in your imagination is just fucking stupid.

People didn't care about the video promos. They did strongly point to Jericho, but they also went on for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. Did ratings dip the week after they originally aired? I just can't imagine people seeing "next week" and then saying "well I'm not going to tune in this one time when everything is going to be revealed!"

It's also pretty lazy to place the low rating on a guy who wasn't even back with the company. I'd tend to buy the trend after Jericho's return then the one-off rating of his (somewhat) ambiguous return.

Strawman.

But did you not once make the point that the effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, but the effect it has the following week.

The problem being, that applies to things which are unannounced. BDC has been clear on that, why you continue to fail to comprehend eludes me.

Or, basically, to dust off an old Chestnut:

BDC is right. You suck.

[Corkscrewed]

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9391/hamburglarip7.jpg

*insert caption here*

[Mr. Nerfect]

Who the fuck said he'd hurt ratings? I haven't seen anybody say anything except that he simply won't make a difference.

KK and BDC said he had hurt them. They explicitly said that ratings had gone down on the episode of Jericho's return, because people didn't care.

[Mr. Nerfect]

...No, nevermind. I got nothing.



I can't honestly figure out at which point Kane Knight declared a video that said 'NEXT_MONDAY' as being ambiguous.

I mean, Alienoid has.

But nah. I can't find a damn spot anywhere on the forum where KK's like "Next Monday? Bullshit." Yeah, there's the quote about the facts and connections that aren't there, and people overthinking and reading into it too much...

...but common sense dictates that he didn't mean the big, bold, motherfuckin' NEXT_MONDAY when he said that, especially since that quote was from before then.

Am I wrong in implying that we use common sense? I mean, this is a pretty fucking simple concept, guys. Or demanding that Alienoid post where KK apparently said this shit?

Show me some chronologically topical sources for a fuckin' change, and I'll get off your nuts 'Noid. But fuck, if every single point you make is going to be a reference to an older argument, then at least be ready to whip out those arguments. Jesus.

In the thread discussing NEXT_MONDAY, Dave said that Jericho's return is pretty much confirmed for the next week, and KK said "*sarcastic comment regarding Dave's intelligence for assuming such*.

If you want to talk about common sense, then you'd have gotten off Narc's back earlier in the thread. Anyone with a fucking brain would have got what he meant when he said that BDC hates everything.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I did once make the point that you suck, I mean that effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, if it was a suprise event. Jericho's return was hardly a suprise. For 2 fucking months they hyped the shit out of someone returning and when. The rating should have been slightly up if not staying on par with the previous week if people gave a shit about this Jericho guy.

And I still maintain you suck. :mad:

That's fair enough, but if people didn't watch the week before (and ratings have not exactly been high), some people would not even know Jericho was coming back. They certainly could have missed the video promoting his return the following week. All I am saying is that it is unreasonable to think that there would have (or should have) been a huge boom for Jericho's return.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people who cared about Jericho would have said they won't watch until he gets back. My brother didn't see his return, and only watched this week once it was confirmed he was back. He saw his return on YouTube.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Except you're lying or retarded. You're making up an argument that I did not claim, and trying to say that I'm being sarcastic and can't admit to being wrong with things I never said. I understand that you and Narc aren't particularly bright, but making up my argument for me and then being pissy because I won't own up to things only said in your imagination is just fucking stupid.

You mean if you ignore the argument, it will go away. You're the type who lives in their own narcissistic world, Kane Knox. If something doesn't fall exactly into your limited argument's (and they are limited, no matter how you try to dress them up), you ignore it. See as follows:


Strawman.

No, actually. It's on point. People are talking about Jericho's impact on the ratings. That is exactly on point of the ratings. Jericho's affect on the ratings should be looked at as a long term thing, especially when he has just returned. If you expect everyone who is interested in Chris Jericho to somehow know about his return the week before it happens (hinted as it was), you are a fucking moron. A straw-man would be you claiming someone makes up their argument's against you. Trying to deflect someone's arguments by not actually addressing them, but creating your own slant on them, for example.

Also, while we're on the topic of you claiming I make up arguments. How ironic is it that a few days ago you made up an argument about me always using TV references against you, like it was all I have? It was my...first television reference? Oh, and that's another example of your ironic straw-man tactics. I see you use the phrase "strawman" (which isn't actually a word, by the way), and I really question your intelligence.

The problem being, that applies to things which are unannounced. BDC has been clear on that, why you continue to fail to comprehend eludes me.

Or, basically, to dust off an old Chestnut:

BDC is right. You suck.

BDC actually clarified on that after I asked him if he said it, and since then I do not believe I had posted anything more about it until you posted this, like two posts after he clarified in response to me. Is someone making up arguments and seeing things in their head? I think they are. It's OK, KK. It's slowly becoming apparent just how retarded you are.

Oh, and I suck? Well, I guess I have to throw away that money I'm earning, and stop sleeping with women, and stop going out with my friends, all because a fat piece of shit who can't even use his own debating techniques correctly without trapping himself in them told me so. KK has spoken, and seeing as he knows all, I think my life just lost all meaning.

[.44 Magdalene]

KK and BDC said he had hurt them. They explicitly said that ratings had gone down on the episode of Jericho's return, because people didn't care.


Except that BDC said that's what he hoped for, and KK saying ratings went down doesn't explicitly mean Jericho's doing the harm. It just means, like I said, that he's not helping. Show me a quote or stop repeating yourself.


In the thread discussing NEXT_MONDAY, Dave said that Jericho's return is pretty much confirmed for the next week, and KK said "*sarcastic comment regarding Dave's intelligence for assuming such*.

Show me the post. I can't take your word for it. Not with your track record.

If you want to talk about common sense, then you'd have gotten off Narc's back earlier in the thread. Anyone with a fucking brain would have got what he meant when he said that BDC hates everything.

Except that he couldn't explain it himself until three pages later. I explained why it was illogical already. Don't equate this to common sense when it's not. Taking a high horse doesn't make any real point, and you of all people should know that (seeing as you bitch about KK doing it so often). If you can't think of a real refute for what I originally said, ignoring it in favor of demeaning my intelligence is not a substitute.

Wow, Critic and KK are still going? I would've thought that their supply of nonsensical idiocy would have run out a page or two ago. Thoroughly impressed am I.

Have you ever refuted anything I've ever said?

Then don't talk down to me without providing something of substance. Again, don't you people bitch about KK doing that?

...a few days ago...etc.

You'd cut down on your post size noticeably if you'd stop trying to bring the last four years of your history with KK into every single argument. Whatever the fuck KK said about your TV references has nothing to do with anything relevant here. Not that this argument has anything of substance anyway--it's almost exclusively girlish bickering over who's smarter than who and what words mean what--but the fact that you keep looping back into old arguments only shows off how emotionally invested you are in debating with KK, and it's rather offputting that you give this much of a shit. I'd put money on the table that this thread would have died by now if you hadn't jumped back in to save Narcissus's case, with really nothing more than "I AGREE THAT KK IS A PRICK" and a few rehashes of the last few arguments you've had.

Fuck.

Narc made a generalization, KK's a prick, BDC wants Jericho to fuck up ratings, also hates alot, Alienoid has trouble interpreting arguments if insults are involved, the Dr. Cox references are still really fucking stupid, Jericho might not be helping ratings, chances are damn good that he's not hurting them, the end.

The end the end the end.

Jesus, fuck. Shit. I keep feeling obligated to try and pound logic and legitimate debate into these "WAAAAH STRAWMAN DR. COX COMMON SENSE HE SAID THIS IN 1995" pissing contests, and all I'm getting is frustrated with how seamlessly some of you can completely ignore valid points in favor of misinterpretations and silliness. I'm not even naming names, so if you don't like it it's because you have a guilty conscience.

And before anyone says anything, yes, I'm retarded for even fucking trying.

[BigDaddyCool]

Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people who cared about Jericho would have said they won't watch until he gets back. My brother didn't see his return, and only watched this week once it was confirmed he was back. He saw his return on YouTube.

Is your brother the entire wrestling watching community? He isn't?!?!? Then that arguement is invalid. One person's actions are not indicitive of the groups action of which they are apart of. That being said, just because 1 person did something, you cannot use that as a generalization for what the rest of the group will also do. Thus making your argument flawed.

Oh, and I suck? Well, I guess I have to throw away that money I'm earning, and stop sleeping with women, and stop going out with my friends, all because a fat piece of shit who can't even use his own debating techniques correctly without trapping himself in them told me so. KK has spoken, and seeing as he knows all, I think my life just lost all meaning.

Well you do suck. Earning money, sleeping with Aussie women, hanging out with aussie friends does not prove you don't suck. But arguing over the internet against Kane Knight proves that you do, if you are from the land downunder.

[Kane Knight]

LOL. That was gold.

And Alienoid with his usual barrage of making shit up in its completely "Out of touch with reality" goodness.

[Innovator]

Noid better run, he better take cover

[Kane Knight]

Is your brother the entire wrestling watching community? He isn't?!?!? Then that arguement is invalid. One person's actions are not indicitive of the groups action of which they are apart of. That being said, just because 1 person did something, you cannot use that as a generalization for what the rest of the group will also do. Thus making your argument flawed.

Well, 'Noid's justification, people who refused to tune in until they saw Jericho might very well exist, but he's arguing from the poor stance of assuming one side acted while the other side did nothing.

It's fair to assume also that people were tuning in to watch for Jericho, as a few people on these boards have confessed to. This would have an effect on ratings, one which Alienoid's example would not. So even with such examples, unless we are to assume they are the norm (Which strikes me as a bit ridiculous), if there were to be a reaction, it should have been positive.

In other words, Alienoid's trying to justify an overall lack of increase in ratings by a rule which is probably in no way the norm.

One has to factor in the "leaked" cover confirming Jericho's return and the Monday "clue," and figure that it would more likely engender positive ratings than a "wait and see" attitude.

I also wonder: If this week's ratings come out and they are either down or have plateaued, what will the response be then?

[Heyman]

I don't mind Jericho using the "Codebreaker" as a finisher, provided that it's not his only finisher (i.e. Angle had the Angle Slam and Ankle lock).

I also don't want Jericho to use the retarded Boston Crab as a replacement for the Walls of Jericho/Lion Tamer. If it was up to me, Jericho's original Lion Tamer/Walls of Jericho would be his primary finisher (and even using the double powerbomb before hand).

While I'm on the subject of Jericho, I am still not very impressed from what I've seen/heard. To me, Jericho's return to the WWE has been very similar to the movie Rush Hour III.

While it hasn't been a disappointment and is still worthwhile to see (even again), there's just no originality....or advancement. I hate to say it but right now, I just don't see Jericho "saving the WWE" in the manner that the WWE might hope.

[Nark Order]

I'd put money on the table that this thread would have died by now if you hadn't jumped back in to save Narcissus's case, with really nothing more than "I AGREE THAT KK IS A PRICK" and a few rehashes of the last few arguments you've had.

The same arguement could be made with you jumping into the thread to argue KK's case. And really all you added to the conversation was you taking things out of context and bolding your text to make yourself sound more important. You all make claims that me and the noid ignore the substance of what you're saying and resort to cheap tactics to further our arguements when you do the exact same thing. Argueing fact vs opinion is completely moronic, considering it was rather clear what I was originally saying. And then instead of taking "BDC hates everything" for the hyperbole that it was you started to childishly prove to me things that BDC doesn't hate. Of course when I tried to explain myself, you had alredy made up your minds that you wanted to be idiots at that moment in time.

Furthermore, I've been ridiculed for being long winded in my posts... and then had to endure 35 straight paragraphs by the critic telling me why (hyperbole. see what I did there? He really didn't post 35 paragraphs but I said that he did for effect). Listen, it is abunduntly clear that this is going to go absolutely nowhere. I could write a 9 page essay on why the both of you are wrong but the the only thing I would most likely get out of it is "OMG. STRAWMAN. LOLZ". Therefore, I end this madness knowing that I and the noid are in the right.

[Heyman]

I like things. I'm just not buying this whole Jericho is god because he was half decent 3 years ago, then got lazy before retiring 2 years ago, but now that he has come back he is amazing. Just because some 6 foot talk 230 something wrestling is good on the mic, I'm not going to start jerking him off for nothing. Jericho is a solid upper mid card worked. Pretending he is awesome doesn't change the fact that he is upper midcard at best.

If you want to see greatness, HBK.

I agree and disagree.

I disagree that with the statement that Jericho is an upper-mid card wrestler at best. The man SHOULD have and COULD have been a wildly successful main-eventer...if he was pushed right.

Now here is the part I agree with (atleast I think you feel the same way). Jericho's character is STALE. It was horribly stale the last time he was around, and it's only a matter of time before he gets stale THIS time around. Why? Because - Jericho's character is almost the EXACT same as it was a few years ago (sans lesbian vest and lesbian haircut).

I've been a Jericho fan throughout his entire WWE stint, but I'm just not sold on his return thus far. Very medicore to say the very least.

[BigDaddyCool]

I agree and disagree.

I disagree that with the statement that Jericho is an upper-mid card wrestler at best. The man SHOULD have and COULD have been a wildly successful main-eventer...if he was pushed right.

Now here is the part I agree with (atleast I think you feel the same way). Jericho's character is STALE. It was horribly stale the last time he was around, and it's only a matter of time before he gets stale THIS time around. Why? Because - Jericho's character is almost the EXACT same as it was a few years ago (sans lesbian vest and lesbian haircut).

I've been a Jericho fan throughout his entire WWE stint, but I'm just not sold on his return thus far. Very medicore to say the very least.

With the right push, anyone can be wildly successful main-eventers, case in point Goldberg, Brock Lesnar, and Ultimate Warrior (hell the only reason Bats isn't in that list is because he didn't recive the right push nor is he wildly successful).

Anyhow, could Jericho have been great if he receive the most awesomely prefect of pushes? Yes he could have. But he didn't and he isn't succesful. Now take for example Ric Flair. He also didn't get the awesomley prefect push, infact for a good part of his career everyone was trying to hold him down, yet he was still wildly successful.

But yeah, Codebreaker Jericho is Y2J Jericho with a haircut and new vest, there has been no material change, just superficial changes.

[BigDaddyCool]

That and Jericho has 2 years of ring rust to scrap off.

[Nark Order]

BDC, you can't honestly believe that anybody could achieve great main event status with a push alone? Will Big Daddy V draw if he is pushed to the top of the company? Would Hornswoggle be a viable main event champion? Did Sid ever draw a dime?

[BigDaddyCool]

BDC, you can't honestly believe that anybody could achieve great main event status with a push alone? Will Big Daddy V draw if he is pushed to the top of the company? Would Hornswoggle be a viable main event champion? Did Sid ever draw a dime?

If they wanted to, BDV could be a top draw in this day and age. Hornswoggle no. Not anyone, but any average wrestler could with the prefect push.

[Kane Knight]

Did Sid ever draw a dime?

No, but his push was kinda...Shitty.

[Nark Order]

I humbly disagree but am open to be proven wrong at some point down the road.

[Nark Order]

WWE likes to only prove the opposite of BDCs theory. They take guys with assloads of talent and push them terribly.

[BigDaddyCool]

I humbly disagree but am open to be proven wrong at some point down the road.

WWE likes to only prove the opposite of BDCs theory. They take guys with assloads of talent and push them terribly.

Um, Warrior? No talent, greatest push in wrestling history. And pushed by WWE...well F at the time. I win.

[Kane Knight]

WWE likes to only prove the opposite of BDCs theory. They take guys with assloads of talent and push them terribly.

Vince McMahon: It is my theory that anyone can suck with the right push. And by "right," I mean the one that we'd give them anyway.

[Nark Order]

Um, Warrior? No talent, greatest push in wrestling history. And pushed by WWE...well F at the time. I win.

It saddens me that the greatest push in wrestling history involves a guy that runs everywhere and yells.

[Kane Knight]

It saddens me that the greatest push in wrestling history involves a guy that runs everywhere and yells.

As a wrestling fan, that should kind of be the best you could hope for.

[BigDaddyCool]

It saddens me that the greatest push in wrestling history involves a guy that runs everywhere and yells.

Why, that is awesome.

[Nark Order]

*sigh*

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[Kane Knight]

Everything in the late 80s and early 90s was like that. Scream as loud as you could to sell a product.

Warrior was merely a symptom of an epidemic that swept the nation ON THE ELEPHANTS OF VERBOSITY!

[Jeritron]

The reason Warrior got his push and was such a draw is because he had "it". Something about him clicked with fans. They loved him, he was a lunatic and didn't have any real talent in the ring or on the stick, BUT he had charisma and was a character that people loved watching.
He's a moron and a madman and a complete joke, but he deserves that credit.

So, Vince gave the fans what they wanted and pushed him and it worked out amazingly until Warrior fucked it up.

So don't act like Big Daddy V has the same ability to get over with fans, nor the same justification in being pushed. To answer your question, NO with the proper push he couldn't draw a dime. Not ever.
He could be champion, because all they have to do is throw the belt on him. But he'd never be over.

[Jeritron]

Any average wrestler (in terms of performing not just holds) can be a draw with the proper push. Haha, okay. So why haven't they found an Austin type. Surely if you give them tv time and push them to the main event over 2 years and have them win at Mania they're going to be over right? That's all it takes, the wrestlers talents don't matter right?

[Kane Knight]

Any average wrestler (in terms of performing not just holds) can be a draw with the proper push. Haha, okay. So why haven't they found an Austin type.

That'd be brilliant reasoning, except it assumes that WWE is pushing people proper. It also assumes that "Main Event Wrestler" is defined not by the main event scene, but by the very specific instance of one guy who was one of the best draws in his time.

Sure, BDC said "Wildly successful," But included Lesnar in his list of names. Clearly, he's not talking "best draw in a decade" when he says that anyone can be a main eventer.

[Jeritron]

To which I still disagree to an extent. I can be a main eventer if the creative team decides to put the belt on me, but I wouldn't draw a dime so they wouldn't do it.
Thats why they don't put the title on Big Daddy V. It's a step above filing for chapter 11.

As for proper pushing, they have dropped the ball on some pushes as we know. But they still have managed to select the right people to push. John Cena and Randy Orton were the talk of the forums around here in 2004 and how they should be pushed.

Same talk surrounds Kennedy and MVP today.

Even if they're not pushed properly, they're selected for a reason and it has to do with their talents in various departments and the crowds response to them to test the waters on the investment beforehand. Not just anybody can be accepted and qualified, therefore not just anybody can be a draw/champion.

[Funky Fly]

I'm still holding out for a Duke Droese title run.

[Kane Knight]

I'm still holding out for a Duke Droese title run.

I'd make a Val Venis joke at this point, but I'm already gonna be whined at enough in this thread by the time I log on tomorrow....

[Mr. Nerfect]

Except that BDC said that's what he hoped for, and KK saying ratings went down doesn't explicitly mean Jericho's doing the harm. It just means, like I said, that he's not helping. Show me a quote or stop repeating yourself.




Show me the post. I can't take your word for it. Not with your track record.

From what I understand rating dipped down on the episode Jericho came back.

Ratings dipped. And ignore what 'Noid said about ratings. Ratings will change notably when the fans care.

Next time, find your own fucking quote and don't be so fucking lazy. You are out. How the fuck can you weigh in about "made up arguments" and not even read the whole thread? You're done.


Except that he couldn't explain it himself until three pages later. I explained why it was illogical already. Don't equate this to common sense when it's not. Taking a high horse doesn't make any real point, and you of all people should know that (seeing as you bitch about KK doing it so often). If you can't think of a real refute for what I originally said, ignoring it in favor of demeaning my intelligence is not a substitute.

Who shouldn't have needed to explain it. As you said "I can't understand you, that makes you stupid. You can't understand me, that also makes you stupid." Don't make me find the quote, you said something roughly like that. You didn't get what he was saying. If you want to pick everything someone says on here for its literal meaning, then you're going to have to sort through a lot of hyperbole. Every thread has someone exaggerating for the hell of it.

It really wasn't a high horse, either. He just dismissed BDC's negative opinion on the thing in a playful manner. That's how I interpreted it, anyway. It's really difficult to explain yourself when you have two guys yelling "made up arguments!" at you over and over again. I don't even think Narc was "arguing." He was just saying that Jericho has been good since he's been back. BDC is entitled to his opinion, but he is in the extreme minority as far as his "I hope Jericho fails and becomes a jobber" views go.


Have you ever refuted anything I've ever said?

Then don't talk down to me without providing something of substance. Again, don't you people bitch about KK doing that?

Everything in this post, and then some. Of course, you'll deny it, because people around here don't like admitting when they are wrong.

You'd cut down on your post size noticeably if you'd stop trying to bring the last four years of your history with KK into every single argument. Whatever the fuck KK said about your TV references has nothing to do with anything relevant here. Not that this argument has anything of substance anyway--it's almost exclusively girlish bickering over who's smarter than who and what words mean what--but the fact that you keep looping back into old arguments only shows off how emotionally invested you are in debating with KK, and it's rather offputting that you give this much of a shit. I'd put money on the table that this thread would have died by now if you hadn't jumped back in to save Narcissus's case, with really nothing more than "I AGREE THAT KK IS A PRICK" and a few rehashes of the last few arguments you've had.

Nah, it's pretty relevent, considering KK is easily [B]the most[/I] inconsistent personality (as far as his identity around here goes) I have ever encountered. He tears into people for using "Strawman," and although he introduced me to the term (incorrectly, I might add), you only need to do one search to realise that half of his posts involve him doing the same thing. He obviously puts no weight on his thoughts, and instead just drifts around wherever and argues on whatever side he thinks he can win on.

Narc made a generalization, KK's a prick, BDC wants Jericho to fuck up ratings, also hates alot, Alienoid has trouble interpreting arguments if insults are involved, the Dr. Cox references are still really fucking stupid, Jericho might not be helping ratings, chances are damn good that he's not hurting them, the end.

The end the end the end.

Jesus, fuck. Shit. I keep feeling obligated to try and pound logic and legitimate debate into these "WAAAAH STRAWMAN DR. COX COMMON SENSE HE SAID THIS IN 1995" pissing contests, and all I'm getting is frustrated with how seamlessly some of you can completely ignore valid points in favor of misinterpretations and silliness. I'm not even naming names, so if you don't like it it's because you have a guilty conscience.

And before anyone says anything, yes, I'm retarded for even fucking trying.

Yes, Narc made a generalisation. I think you're being too hard on him for it. Generalisations are made around these parts all the time. It was not worth two guys with a more prominent reputation than him jumping all over him for it. KK is a prick. There is no hyperbole there. BDC does hate a lot, which was the point of said generalisation in the first place (which kind of makes it accurate, does it not?). I don't have trouble interpreting arguments, it's just impossible to argue with KK, because he never has a real leg to stand on, however I do tend to push things for the sake of it. Dr. Cox is better than everyone on these forums, and always will be. Jericho is not helping ratings, and he is not hurting them, which was to the contrary of the point KK and BDC made.

I admire you unbias towards the end, and I agree with you, it should be over. I just don't like KK thinking that he's won, because he never does. This thread will die when I get bored. In the meantime, feel free to discuss The Codebreaker.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Well, 'Noid's justification, people who refused to tune in until they saw Jericho might very well exist, but he's arguing from the poor stance of assuming one side acted while the other side did nothing.

It's fair to assume also that people were tuning in to watch for Jericho, as a few people on these boards have confessed to. This would have an effect on ratings, one which Alienoid's example would not. So even with such examples, unless we are to assume they are the norm (Which strikes me as a bit ridiculous), if there were to be a reaction, it should have been positive.

In other words, Alienoid's trying to justify an overall lack of increase in ratings by a rule which is probably in no way the norm.

One has to factor in the "leaked" cover confirming Jericho's return and the Monday "clue," and figure that it would more likely engender positive ratings than a "wait and see" attitude.

I also wonder: If this week's ratings come out and they are either down or have plateaued, what will the response be then?

Thank you for actually seeing my point, as BDC did not. My point was that a lot of people would not have tuned in, because A) Jericho had not returned yet, and B) They had not heard about it. Just because the WWE runs cryptic (albeit fairly obvious to the IWC) videos on the matter, does not equate to a blatant advertisement. If the screen flashled red and yellow during an episode of RAW, the words "Next Week" appeared, and Hogan returned the following week, you can't expect everyone outside of the WWE's audience to have been clued in on it.

As far as the rating goes, it's got me a bit confused. Jericho is not the anti-draw. Jericho returning would not decrease ratings. I don't care if your point is that people don't care, I can not imagine a viewer sitting at home and then saying "Hey! Those videos are coming to an end next week! I am not going to watch for the first time in months!" That angle doesn't make sense to me, either. Some people would have watched for the return, other people were probably watching something else (because the WWE is pretty crappy, general speaking, these days), and others would not have been clued in. It's a confusing rating, because you don't have too much to judge on what people know. That's why I'm saying wait until this week's rating, and just see how the rating goes with Jericho as the top babyface.

And if ratings just even out (which they probably will), the response will be the same as it has been from the beginning. "No one expected Jericho to really help ratings. They just want him to make the product a little more entertaining."

[Mr. Nerfect]

That'd be brilliant reasoning, except it assumes that WWE is pushing people proper. It also assumes that "Main Event Wrestler" is defined not by the main event scene, but by the very specific instance of one guy who was one of the best draws in his time.

Sure, BDC said "Wildly successful," But included Lesnar in his list of names. Clearly, he's not talking "best draw in a decade" when he says that anyone can be a main eventer.

Wait, so you mean someone on here said something that they didn't mean literally? Let's all jump on him and prove to him that Lesnar was not a huge draw!

Sorry, still in argument mode. But I do agree with Jeritron here. Anyone can be made a main eventer, but not everyone is appropriate to the role. For example, Snitsky and Big Daddy V. The WWE is pushing them both pretty strong, but neither guy really has much hope of getting there, staying there and retaining credibility. Talent, of some sort, is a huge key to success.

Warrior was also part of a different era. Kids bought people like him at the time, because wrestling did not have the bad reputation it currently has. Kids were able to take Warrior lunchboxes to school, and not get picked on. A guy did not have to be as good at his job as he has to be now, because wrestling was perceived as a lot more "real." It was less how good a guy was, and more how good you were told he was.

[BigDaddyCool]

I see my name pop up a few times in all of 'Noid's posting and I have time to read them as well. But for some reason I just don't give a fuck. I'm going to assume he is pushing for a Basham's title run again. And some how expects me to book it. While I could book it so they would be madly over, I just don't want too.

[The MAC]

JERICHO should have went to tna. it would have made more of a difference than this lesbian-esque shit.

[.44 Magdalene]

From what I understand rating dipped down on the episode Jericho came back.


Ratings dipped.

...saying ratings went down doesn't explicitly mean Jericho's doing the harm. It just means, like I said, that he's not helping.

...Don't give enough of a shit to respond to the rest of it. It's arguing with a brick wall.

Very classy to neg rep me, Narc. I thought the "Stop being wrong" was a very mature touch.

[.44 Magdalene]

Also, the "Have you ever refuted...?" statement was not only directed towards Narc, not Alienoid, but I quoted him in it.

Alienoid, I'll fully fucking admit that you've gotten me here and there. Fuck, the fact that I've quit responding to most of that shit is a victory by default. The difference between one of your posts and this:

Wow, Critic and KK are still going? I would've thought that their supply of nonsensical idiocy would have run out a page or two ago. Thoroughly impressed am I.

...Is rather evident. You know how you jump KK's shit a little too much because he's being a prick?

Narc is also a prick.

Try to understand where I'm coming from.

[Skull316]

JERICHO should have went to tna. it would have made more of a difference than this lesbian-esque shit.

Yeah cause not like he didn't get the lesbian-esque haircut well before resigning with WWE or anything. Aside from that, his vest/outfit are practically no different than what he wore around his first month in WWE to begin with. Also, you make it sound like his hair before was any more manly.

case in point: his first ppv appearance:

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[Kane Knight]

...Don't give enough of a shit to respond to the rest of it. It's arguing with a brick wall.

It was amusing seeing someone else try, at least, to get through that thick skull of Alienoid's. Alienoid will simply make up his argument based on a fantasy world (Much like his sex life), and assume he's right.

Then, it comes down to this:

Alienoid: Why won't you admit you were wrong?

Kane Knight: Because you're claiming I said something I didn't.

Alienoid: HA HA! I was right! You can never be wrong! I win by continuously arguing strawmen points based on my limited comprehension! Now girls HAVE to have sex with me!

:lol:

[Heyman]

Yeah cause not like he didn't get the lesbian-esque haircut well before resigning with WWE or anything. Aside from that, his vest/outfit are practically no different than what he wore around his first month in WWE to begin with. Also, you make it sound like his hair before was any more manly.

case in point: his first ppv appearance:


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LOL @ Road Dogg's comment. "Shut up bitch!" :lol: Caught me off guard.

Also - Jericho was freakin' awesome.....at that time. Why can't he just go back to being like THAT.

I swear - if Jericho acted like THAT and ACTED like a TWEENER (independent of how the fans reacted towards him), Jericho would be in a position where he could draw (provided the WWE let him get wins over legit main-event guys).

[Kane Knight]

RD was wearing a fanny pack? :rofl:

[Kane Knight]

Man, look at that. Hey WWE, remember when you used to get reactions like that?

[BigDaddyCool]

Road Dogg has little skinny chicken legs.

[BigDaddyCool]

Man shit, back then Road Dogg is getting pops the size of John Cena's pops now.

[Kane Knight]

Man shit, back then Road Dogg is getting pops the size of John Cena's pops now.And without the associated boos.

Yup. That's how far Raw's sunk.

[Kane Knight]

By the way, I'm going to go on record and say that there is an off chance that Jericho's return did hurt Raw. It's unlikely, but it's possible. My argument, specifically, in noting that Raw ratings were down however was to indicate that Jericho certainly didn't cause a ratings spike.

Kudos to people who understood that "Jericho didn't help ratings" does not automatically mean "Chris Jericho--Ratings Killer."

In all probability, Jericho will mean next to nothing to the ratings one way or another. I mean, it's possible that he will, but if I were to gamble on it, it would be on "Jericho not significantly affecting Raw's ratings one way or the other."

[Jeritron]

He certainly has the power to draw in old fans of his. But even though hes a cult favorite, most people who were fans of him are probably the ones who were still watching through these bad times anyways.

And as for him drawing back fans who left, I think he does have that power. But it's not good enough. They have to be kept there. They need to become interested again and it's gonna take the whole promotion turning around to do that. Save Stone Cold or The Rock returning to full time action I don't think anything from the past can sustain higher ratings for a period of time long enough to be considered anythg more than a small spike.

I think the most important thing is the current fans and drawing in new fans. Jericho just needs to do what he does and he'll get over with the current fans and get new fans, just like he did in 2000.

[Heyman]

In all probability, Jericho will mean next to nothing to the ratings one way or another. I mean, it's possible that he will, but if I were to gamble on it, it would be on "Jericho not significantly affecting Raw's ratings one way or the other."

If Jericho was pushed "the right way", then I might have to disagree ('might' being the key word). However - for the most part, I think you're right.

The only guy who would have a significant impact on ratings right now, would be The Rock IMO.

[Jeritron]

You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.

[Heyman]

You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.

And in my opinion, a very good thought....a thought of which I agree with.

The ONE thing that Jericho had (has?) going for him (similar to Austin, The Rock, and Undertaker), is that Jericho can be over HUGELY as a heel AND a face.

Very very few people nowadays have the ability to be wildly successful as faces.

Triple H, Kurt Angle, Randy Orton, and numerous others are all wrestlers who simply cannot deliver as faces (atleast if their past is of any indication). Jericho however, CAN. I also agree that if Jericho was pushed the right way in 2001, then yes - he WOULD have been the next heir apparent to The Rock. No question.

If things were up to me, I would have had Jericho, not Angle, feud with Austin at Summerslam 2001....and beyond. If it was up to me, I would have had Jericho feud with The Rock......both as faces.....and let the fans naturally gravitate towards Jericho (it was around this time the fans were slowly starting to get tired of The Rock).

If it was up to me, Jericho's title victory over Triple H actually would have happened. The Rock and Triple H were wildly over enough as it was....and didn't need the title. Jericho carrying the strap at that time (especially in the manner that he went over Triple H) would have been perfect.

[BigDaddyCool]

You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.

Coulda woulda shoulda...no way to prove that. And it it little suprise that someone named after Jericho's tv would be arguing so hard that Jericho is god.

[Jeritron]

The WCW and nWo coming in, and HHH coming back is what threw a wrench in it all.

It was clear after Wrestlemania 17 that they were about to bump Jericho up to the big time. In a perfect situation he would have fueded with Austin or Rock for the title going into Wrestlemania 18.

And fued with the other one before that during the summer or fall of 2001.

Austin/Jericho could have been immense, and its seeds got trampled on once the WCW was bought.

Jericho/Rock was immense in fall of 01, and could have been the most amazing Wrestlemania build and fued ever for Wrestlemania 18. Had Rock and not Jericho turned on the WWF and gone heel, it would have taken the right direction.

And if it weren't for them focusing on nWo and HHH they wouldn't have fucked up so much potential in Jericho as the company star, the Wrestlemania main event, and the prospect of a high profile Rock/Jericho or Austin/Jericho fued for the title.

[Jeritron]

Coulda woulda shoulda...no way to prove that. And it it little suprise that someone named after Jericho's tv would be arguing so hard that Jericho is god.


Yea dude. So what happened to you man? I leave for a few months and all of a sudden you think you're the don?

[BigDaddyCool]

Yea dude. So what happened to you man? I leave for a few months and all of a sudden you think you're the don?

No, I think I'm the king of the wrestling forum and I'm kliq for life. So I kinda trump you.

[Kane Knight]

You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.

The Butterfly effect.

Not exactly so, but if you go far enough back, almost any change beyond the absolutely most trivial could have had an impact to alter the course of history sufficiently.

On the other hand, there's also the point that if everything had been done right, the programming would be radically different anyway. On some level, I think we're all aware of that. On the other hand, that's pointless, even by IWC standards.

WWE can actually do a lot to save itself in the here and now, and that's where their actions really matter. It would be great if Vinnie Mac could just hop into the Wayback Machine and dial up 2003 or whenever, but he can't.

What he can do, I suppose, is listen to the fans in the here and now. the ones who Yawn when DX comes out, barely pop for the biggest faces, and barely give heat to the biggest heels. The ones who have become indifferent to the programming.

And maybe that's not as good as going back in time, using Jericho better, and whatever, but they've got him now, and that's all that matters.

[Mooияakeя™]

I swear Noble used the same move abotu 2 or 3 weeks ago? Anyway, it's no Walls of Jericho, though he does have a knack at good move names imo.

[Kane Knight]

Noble? Isn't he on that show nobody watches?

[.44 Magdalene]

Remember when Eddie and RVD feuded over the Five Star?


...Remember when shit like this actually lead to feuds?

[Kane Knight]

Remember when Eddie and RVD feuded over the Five Star?


...Remember when shit like this actually lead to feuds?

I'll just continue this.

Remember feuds?

[IC Champion]

Remember when there was shit actually worth remembering.

[Kane Knight]

Remember when there was shit actually worth remembering.


....Damn youse.

[BigDaddyCool]

Did we ever get the ratings for Nov. 26th Raw?

[Kane Knight]

You can see the real ratings as early as tomorrow afternoon, depending. The BS ratings the dirt sheets usually have, I dunno. But in probably 24 hours, they'll be up.

(I say probably because Nielsen updates every Wednesday, officially, meaning their tendency to be early is nice, but not to be epected)

[Mr. Nerfect]

By the way, I'm going to go on record and say that there is an off chance that Jericho's return did hurt Raw. It's unlikely, but it's possible. My argument, specifically, in noting that Raw ratings were down however was to indicate that Jericho certainly didn't cause a ratings spike.

Kudos to people who understood that "Jericho didn't help ratings" does not automatically mean "Chris Jericho--Ratings Killer."

In all probability, Jericho will mean next to nothing to the ratings one way or another. I mean, it's possible that he will, but if I were to gamble on it, it would be on "Jericho not significantly affecting Raw's ratings one way or the other."

Actually, in a topic and a post talking about the impact Chris Jericho has had since returning, and pointing out that ratings have dipped, as accurate as it may be, is indicative. If you meant to imply that Jericho would not have an effect on ratings, you might as well have said "Jericho will not effect ratings."

[Mr. Nerfect]

I see my name pop up a few times in all of 'Noid's posting and I have time to read them as well. But for some reason I just don't give a fuck. I'm going to assume he is pushing for a Basham's title run again. And some how expects me to book it. While I could book it so they would be madly over, I just don't want too.

:|

That's a lot lamer than you think it is.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I swear Noble used the same move abotu 2 or 3 weeks ago? Anyway, it's no Walls of Jericho, though he does have a knack at good move names imo.

Jamie Noble probably used a fireman's carry into a double knee gutbuster. Both moves use two knees, but they are quite different.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It was amusing seeing someone else try, at least, to get through that thick skull of Alienoid's. Alienoid will simply make up his argument based on a fantasy world (Much like his sex life), and assume he's right.

Then, it comes down to this:

Alienoid: Why won't you admit you were wrong?

Kane Knight: Because you're claiming I said something I didn't.

Alienoid: HA HA! I was right! You can never be wrong! I win by continuously arguing strawmen points based on my limited comprehension! Now girls HAVE to have sex with me!

:lol:

:lol: I'm thick?

Kane Knight: Made up arguments!

Alienoid: How are they made up arguments? You always do this, believe what you want to believe, take everything out of context, and then make straw-man arguments.

Kane Knight: Made up...la-la-la, I can't hear you. Strawman. I'm not arguing this point, and instead saying it is made-up, and I'm going to insult your intelligence.

Also, your desperation is amazing. Attacking my sex life like you know anything about me? See, I know you're a fat sack of shit who accomplishes nothing of importance.

Anyway, there is no point arguing with a cat with a tape recorder attached to its collar, so I'm done with you until you say something really stupid again. Shall not be long. Really, shame on me for arguing with you, though. I should have learned by now that you're never going to apply full sight to a situation. I believe it was Einstein who once said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results." KK will always give you bull, shit, and usually in that order.

[Funky Fly]

tbh, dude, you are the one who brought up your sex life first.

[Inadequacy]

So yeah...the Codebreaker

[addy2hotty]

Thought it looked good on Umanga. I think when he hits Orton with it, it'll look awesome.

What about his selling of the RKo with the twisted body effect at the end. Jericho is excellence.

[Kane Knight]

'Noid, 'Noid, 'Noid....Yes, you're thick.

See, the problem is, you are making up my arguments. And yes, you're making those claims even after evidence to the contrary has been delivered. Saying I "do this all the time" is pointless, too. You're wrong. You're attributing things to me which weren't said and ignoring what was said. That's making things up. You live in a fairy tale world.

You're also a hypocrite. The "You don't know me" shit is rich from someone who keeps making cracks about my own life. By the way, I know you're too stupid to get this, but I wasn't attacking your sex life, I was mocking the fact that you brought it up. In either sense, you opened the door by pretending you've ever had sex in your life. But really, to talk about how I haven't accomplished anything and such in the same argument where you're trumping the fact that I don't know you shows how stupid you are. The fact is, you don't know me any better than I know you. That door swings both ways, and you were the one desperate enough to make those cracks first.

So....How much of a worthless sack of shit does that make you, Virginoid?

[Dave Youell]

Lol, this fued has lasted longer than anything on RAW for the past year, ha!

[Kane Knight]

Lol, this fued has lasted longer than anything on RAW for the past year, ha!

What, it's gone on for more than 30 seconds? ;)

BTW, Nielsen's site hasn't updated. Still.

[Kane Knight]

Nielsen's new top ten is up, with WWE Raw pulling in hours of 3.1 and 2.9, one up .1 and one down .1 from last week's rankings. The difference in viewers is +77,000 and 47,000, more or less insignificant.

So the debut and first week of active Raw is Jericho have basically remained unchanged from recent weeks.

[BigDaddyCool]

Nielsen's new top ten is up, with WWE Raw pulling in hours of 3.1 and 2.9, one up .1 and one down .1 from last week's rankings. The difference in viewers is +77,000 and 47,000, more or less insignificant.

So the debut and first week of active Raw is Jericho have basically remained unchanged from recent weeks.

So all that hype and gay magician's vest lead to keeping the status quo? I would say that makes the hype videos a failure as it didn't change anything. It is a catestrophic failure, it just failed to bring in any extra ratings.

[Kane Knight]

So all that hype and gay magician's vest lead to keeping the status quo? I would say that makes the hype videos a failure as it didn't change anything. It is a catestrophic failure, it just failed to bring in any extra ratings.

It really does look like it failed to bring anyone in. Even with the argument that the debut shouldn't be taken as an indicator, because....Well, I'm not sure why we should take that. It wasn't a surprise return, given the "next Monday" bit or whatever it said, and the argument that was used before hand was that it was "obvious" and people couldn't see who else it could be. So assuming both that it was obvious and could only be Jericho, one should assume that people would have tuned in for the explicit debut, if they cared.

But even ignoring that, he debuted, nothing happened to the ratings (Actually, they lost quite a few fans, but not statistically out of the norm for a standard week to week). His first week actually on the show, now that he's debuted, no impact.

And honestly, I'm not surprised. I didn't expect him to hurt or help ratings.

I can see your argument for failure. the idea was to create hype, to create interest, and in effect, to create viewers. Or reclaim viewers, really, but that didn't fit with the other two as nicely. As such, it did fail, as it hasn't really done more than get the usuals to chant "Y2J! Y2J!" Which is great and all, but doesn't really mean much in the long run. And let's face it, the crowd doesn't seem to care much more for his segments than any other segment on Raw.

But whatever. By tomorrow morning, some moron will have drawn the following from this analysis, instead of what I actually said:


I hate Jericho.
I still think Jericho's never returning.
I want Jericho to fail.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also before someone starts arguing what I ment by failure. I'll spell it out. If WWE's goal by spending money on Jericho, producing those promos, and taking up airtime to show said promos and pay for all that hype (which ain't free) was to keep doing around a 3 in ratings and having fairly dead crowds, well then they suceeded and are wasteful with money.

Since no one is going to spend that kind of money not to make an impact, then Jericho's big redubet failed.

[Kane Knight]

Also before someone starts arguing what I ment by failure. I'll spell it out. If WWE's goal by spending money on Jericho, producing those promos, and taking up airtime to show said promos and pay for all that hype (which ain't free) was to keep doing around a 3 in ratings and having fairly dead crowds, well then they suceeded and are wasteful with money.

Since no one is going to spend that kind of money not to make an impact, then Jericho's big redubet failed.

And I agree that, by that argument, it can be counted as a failure. It seems like a sensible method of measuring, too.

The only counter argument I can really imagine deals less with it as a success there, and more as a success in terms of getting the existing fans talking. And while I can see that as a measure for success, it seems pointless to put on this song and dance and not expect more people to tune in.

[addy2hotty]

I look at the ratings this way, Jericho returning stopped me turning it off for good - so therefore it probably helped keep viewers who were bored stiff. Like me.

[Kane Knight]

I look at the ratings this way, Jericho returning stopped me turning it off for good - so therefore it probably helped keep viewers who were bored stiff. Like me.

I look at the ratings at face value.

For example, even the "bored stiff" viewers have continued to view. You can say it kept you from tuning out, but I don't know that this is true. Especially with the IW fans who kept threatening to not watch when Jericho kept not showing up and never really tuning out. It's easier to say you've quit, or were going to quit than to do so, it seems.

Bottom line? It might have kept you and other people from tuning out, but statistically, it's not only unlikely, but the number of people to which this might apply would in all probability be statistically insificant.

[addy2hotty]

I look at the ratings at face value.

For example, even the "bored stiff" viewers have continued to view. You can say it kept you from tuning out, but I don't know that this is true. Especially with the IW fans who kept threatening to not watch when Jericho kept not showing up and never really tuning out. It's easier to say you've quit, or were going to quit than to do so, it seems.

Bottom line? It might have kept you and other people from tuning out, but statistically, it's not only unlikely, but the number of people to which this might apply would in all probability be statistically insificant.

It's a very good point, and I don't disagree.

[Kane Knight]

:D

[Kane Knight]

"According to data compiled by Nielson Media Research this week's edition of WWE Monday Night RAW did a 3.24 cable rating with 4.8 million viewers tuning in."

From the newsboard. Since the ratings are usually a few tenths of a point high, there's actually a decent chance the ratings went down for this week's Raw.

Both hours last week did better than 4.8 million viewers, so at best, they lost over 100,000 viewers. that's assuming the numbers aren't ridiculously high, like usual.

[wwe2222]

now that HBK is stuck with Kennedy, the only thing tuning me in is to watch Jericho.

[Kane Knight]

Week #2 of Chris Jericho's return drew in hours of 2.8 and 2.8, each losing a couple hundred thou in viewers.

[Jeritron]

Going against the Pats vs Ravens game on ESPN, which just happens to be the highest rated/watched program in cable television history.

I'm not defending Jericho or WWE here, just pointing out that factor.

[Kane Knight]

Side note, it was outdrawn by Tin Man.

[BigDaddyCool]

Rating could be effected by the football games and so forth. But the pops still aren't there.

[Kane Knight]

Rating could be effected by the football games and so forth. But the pops still aren't there.

Ratings could be affected by football games, but they generally aren't.

I mean, I know everyone and their mother here says they flip back and forth between fake shit and real sports, but it doesn't seem to have much of an impact. I'm sorry, and given the 11 rating that the aforementioned game got, this MIGHT be an exception, but generally, it's not a huge deterrent. I dunno. Even during like the World Series and shit, they manage not to take significant hits.

Granted, this isn't exactly the end of WWE, either.

[Kane Knight]

Sorry, replied to the wrong guy. Anyway, BDC. The funny thing about the pops is a few weeks ago when I asked if the crowds were really that dead, the responses were things like "What did you expect?"

Jericho comes back, and people (And a decent number of them are the same people) start in with this whole "Oh, but the crowd was really wild" shit, which now sounds like people are making excuses for Jericho. So apparently th dead silence for Trips or Kennedy or whoever else is legit, but the dead silence for Jericho is a fucking conspiracy or something.

[Innovator]

Fuck it, just blame creative

[Kane Knight]

You mean "they haven't used Jericho" properly?

[BigDaddyCool]

Ratings could be affected by football games, but they generally aren't.

Effected, not affected. Ratings do not (as far as I know) have emotions, so they can not be affected by anything.

Jericho comes back, and people (And a decent number of them are the same people) start in with this whole "Oh, but the crowd was really wild" shit, which now sounds like people are making excuses for Jericho. So apparently th dead silence for Trips or Kennedy or whoever else is legit, but the dead silence for Jericho is a fucking conspiracy or something.

HHH was got a good pop at the 3 hour Raw, the first time he came out. And was still getting decent pops the 8000 other times he came out. Kennedy on the other hand has fallen flat on his face in recent weeks. He is botch his matches and it turns out when he isn't repeating his name, he isn't all that great on the mic.

The point is, certain people are getting pops. Why isn't Jericho? Because 1) he was never that big to begin with or else he would be rememebered after 2 years. 2) He himself has been lackluster on the mic and in the ring. Plus he is riding on cookie monster's coat tales. 3) WWE fucked up his return...which I'm starting to doubt. WWE is one of the greatest promotion machines ever. We were all in supsence waiting and wondering when he would return. Also, how much of the return was his idea veruses how much was WWE's idea, we may never know. I'm going to say it is Jericho's fault. Jericho is the one out there stinking up the ring with ok matches at best, and lazy promos that are the same forumla from 2 years ago.

[Kane Knight]

Trips got legit pops during the Anniversarry show, but hasn't on previous Raws.

Might there be a difference? I think so. Point is, Trips has mostly gotten piped in cheers, and even his recent pops have been lackluster.

[Kane Knight]

Also, I'm not arguing grammar or diction with someone who frequently writes shit like:

HHH was go a good pop at the 3 hour raw

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, I'm not arguing grammar or diction with someone who frequently writes shit like:

HHH was go a good pop at the 3 hour raw

:mad: It is a pet peeve of mine when people us affected when they mean effected. And yes, I probably aught to check my own postes.

[Kane Knight]

I'd care, but "affected" is so commonly used that it's about as correct as a double negative or other anal minutia.

[BigDaddyCool]

It is still the wrong word. :mad:

It is cause and effect, not cause and affect.

[Innovator]

You mean "they haven't used Jericho" properly?
Not just Jericho, but if you make entertaining tv, chances are people won't stop watching

[Kane Knight]

It is still the wrong word. :mad:

It is cause and effect, not cause and affect.

And I probably should be more careful. Alienoid will come in here and no doubt be confused.

Tell you what. You convince the South to stop using "anymore" improperly and I'll clean up my Effect/Affect.

Not just Jericho, but if you make entertaining tv, chances are people won't stop watching

Well, yeah, but I figured at this point it was assumed. I mean, it's pretty obvious what's gone wrong here. People just don't care. Live crowds are practically dead, ratings keep going below 3.0, and their solution, until very recently, was "More Cena." And that only changed because he was injured. Now their solution is....Well, I don't know what it is. Book a freshly returned face with no reaction against a mediocre heel with no reaction in a main event match and hope that no reaction+no reaction=reaction?

[BigDaddyCool]

Vator, no one is arguing WWE's current product doesn't suck.

[BigDaddyCool]

And I probably should be more careful. Alienoid will come in here and no doubt be confused.

Tell you what. You convince the South to stop using "anymore" improperly and I'll clean up my Effect/Affect.

1) I'm not sure how they are improperly using "anymore"

2) I already know that is an impossible task.

[Innovator]

Well, yeah, but I figured at this point it was assumed. I mean, it's pretty obvious what's gone wrong here. People just don't care. Live crowds are practically dead, ratings keep going below 3.0, and their solution, until very recently, was "More Cena." And that only changed because he was injured. Now their solution is....Well, I don't know what it is. Book a freshly returned face with no reaction against a mediocre heel with no reaction in a main event match and hope that no reaction+no reaction=reaction?
I noticed that at the show on Monday. I mean walking around I saw Save_Us shirts, Jericho signs, but only my section was really chanting for him. People are happy to just hold up their signs, clap.....and thats really it.

Their solution now is......dunno...looks like......no no......."more HHH until Cena comes back"

[Kane Knight]

I noticed that at the show on Monday. I mean walking around I saw Save_Us shirts, Jericho signs, but only my section was really chanting for him. People are happy to just hold up their signs, clap.....and thats really it.

Their solution now is......dunno...looks like......no no......."more HHH until Cena comes back"

Mostly because it's not that exciting. Sad as it is to say, there's a reason the crowd's dead most of the time, and there's a reaso nthat extends to Jericho.

[Innovator]

Can't disagree with you

[Innovator]

Jericho, Orton, and the monkeys with the typewriters all deserve the blame

[Kane Knight]

Jericho, Orton, and the monkeys with the typewriters all deserve the blame

I don't think there's many people who don't deserve blame.

[Innovator]

Blame Canada!

[BigDaddyCool]

Blame Canada!

With all their hockey and techincally based boring wrestling.

[Kane Knight]

I blame the accent. I think that's the reason I can't get behind Edge as a heel. "I'm suppoosed to be a heel, but I just soond retarded, eh?"

[BigDaddyCool]

KK, you have an irrational hate of all that Edge does.

[Kane Knight]

That was a pretty good impression of Narc/Alienoid/Dave Youell.

[Nark Order]

I disagree. If it was a noid impression the minimum is like 3-4 paragraphs.

[Kane Knight]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/effect_an_effect.png

[BigDaddyCool]

Affect and Effect don't have obsure meanings. :roll:
af·fect1 (ə-fĕkt')
tr.v., -fect·ed, -fect·ing, -fects.
To have an influence on or effect a change in: Inflation affects the buying power of the dollar.
To act on the emotions of; touch or move.
To attack or infect, as a disease: Rheumatic fever can affect the heart.


ef·fect (ĭ-fĕkt')
n.
Something brought about by a cause or agent; a result.
The power to produce an outcome or achieve a result; influence: The drug had an immediate effect on the pain. The government's action had no effect on the trade imbalance.

[McLegend]

What the fuck does riding cookie moster's coat tails mean?

[KYR]

Affect and Effect don't have obsure meanings. :roll:
af·fect1 (ə-fĕkt')
tr.v., -fect·ed, -fect·ing, -fects.
To have an influence on or effect a change in: Inflation affects the buying power of the dollar.
To act on the emotions of; touch or move.
To attack or infect, as a disease: Rheumatic fever can affect the heart.


ef·fect (ĭ-fĕkt')
n.
Something brought about by a cause or agent; a result.
The power to produce an outcome or achieve a result; influence: The drug had an immediate effect on the pain. The government's action had no effect on the trade imbalance.

As this AFFECTed BDC, it had an immediate EFFECT on this thread...

http://www.tpww.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5210&d=1197522231

[Funky Fly]

Effected, not affected. Ratings do not (as far as I know) have emotions, so they can not be affected by anything.

I'm not really even a part of this thread anymore, but lol: you got that backwards, man. Don't be a grammar nazi if you're going to fuck it up yourself.

Affect is a verb. Affected is correct.

Effect is a noun. Effected = wrong.

[Funky Fly]

As this AFFECTed BDC, it had an immediate EFFECT on this thread...

http://www.tpww.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5210&d=1197522231

I see I've been beaten to the punch.