QUESTION - If everyone "acted" heelish (and let the fans react however they wanted)..

[Heyman]

QUESTION - If everyone "acted" heelish (and let the fans react however they wanted)..

Would it work? In my opinion - not only would it WORK, but I actually believe that it could lead to the next big boom in pro wrestling. Letting almost ALL wrestlers act "heelish" (and letting the fans reacting however they wanted.....which would result in certain wrestlers being automatic faces anyways) would allow for more "characters" to get noticed.

Here are some advantages I see in doing this:

1) Character maximization: Right now, it seems like anyone who "acts" like a face, is restricted in what they say. Heels however, have far more flexibility in promos. This "flexibility" is what often allows characters to be more charismatic/entertaining. Remember in 2002 when The Rock was EXTREMELY stale? Remember in 03' when he came back as a heel and completely revitalized his character? Remember how 2 months later he was massively popular again?....to the point where almost everyone cheered him against Goldberg? That's what I'm talking about.

2) More CHARACTERS being showcased. Heelish characters --> Allow for wrestlers to be more flexible with the mic --> allows for less "faceless jobbers" in the WWE. Example? Think of Santino Marella when he first came....and how bland he was a face. Think of Marella now. Which Santino is way more over amongst the fans? Who would actually get cheered louder?


It's no longer about heels and faces anymore..........the fans will simply cheer which ever characters/wrestlers are the most charismatic/entertaining/creative.

Think about ALL of the most popular wrestlers since 2001 yes (2001!) and you'll know what I mean.

-RVD (alliance)
-Triple H
-Brock Lesnar
-Randy Orton
-Eddie Guerrero
-Kurt Angle
-Dave Batista
-Carlitto
-Christian
-Hollywood Hulk Hogan!!!!!
-John Cena

And there are a few others that I'm probably missing.

ALL of these guys ultimately got cheered (loudly!) as a result of their heelish characters!

Stop. Read the above sentence again.....let it sink in.....and then read it again.

Think back to 1997 with Stone Cold Steve Austin. Austin enjoyed a huge popularity surge due to what he did as a HEEL. The Rock was the same way. The Rock become a HUGE face after showcasing his character as a HEEL. The Rock and Austin were BOTH at the popularity of their peak when BOTH men ACTED very heelish (and yet got cheered as a face). Think of Austin in 1998. Think of The Rock in late 1999 early 2000.

In fact, shockingly enough, both Austin and The Rock's face pops started to die down once they started sucking up to the fans a little (and in effect, started deviating too much from their heel characters....characters of lead to them being popular in the first place). How many wrestlers can I say that about? Let's see......

In fact _________ face pops started dying down once they started sucking up to the fans a little.

-Kurt Angle (2001)
-Triple H (2002)
-Brock Lesnar (2002)
-The Rock (2002)
-Goldberg (2003)
-RVD (2003)
-Scott Steiner (2003)
-Kevin Nash (2003)
-Kurt Angle (again in 2003)
-Eddie Guerrero (2004)
-Randy Orton (2004)
-Shawn Michaels (2005)
-John Cena (2006)
-Rey Mysterio (2006)
-Kurt Angle (2006)
-Dave Batista (2006)


CONCLUSION: The WWE may not realize this, but the concept of heels/faces is dead. It's been dead since 1997. The fans do NOT want to be told who to cheer for. The fans WILL not cheer for who they are told to cheer for. If the WWE would have brought in "Hulk Hogan...The Real American" in 2003 and shoved him down the fans' throat, he would have been booed. Instead - the WWE brought in Hollywood Hogan and the fans THEMSELVES....CHOSE to cheer Hollywood Hogan....and bring back the Hulkster....big difference!

Bottom line? Let all characters act heelish. The fans love wrestlers with attitudes. Let the FANS choose who they want to cheer for.

[Londoner]

I agree 100%. You could've used John Cena as an example of what you're saying and compared his heel character to his 'face' character, in terms of crowd reaction to back up your point.

[Heyman]

I agree 100%. You could've used John Cena as an example of what you're saying and compared his heel character to his 'face' character.

Yep. John Cena is a PRIME example of what I'm talking about. As a heel, he had no restrictions. He free styled with his raps, showed massive attitude, and was loved as a result. As a face - he became restrictive, predictable, and lost a lot of 'edge' as result. The fans turned on him as result.

-Shawn Michaels received his biggest FACE pops in 2005 due to how he acted against Hulk Hogan during their summer feud.

-Randy Orton completely out popped <s>Chris Benoit</s> at Summerslam....an event that was held in Canada. The fans were going apeshit for Orton. 2 months later, Orton was a very bland face. 2 months after that, the fans had turned on Orton.

-Brock Lesnar was cheered immensely against The Rock in 02' at SS. 2 months later, his face pops had dwindled considerably.

-Eddie Guerrero.....HUGE face pops when he won at Wrestlemania against Angle. A few months later when they deviated from the "lie, cheat, steal" gimmick and tried to give him an "emotional" side, his character went down the toilet. He jobbed to JBL shortly afterwards.

-Dave Batista.....thanked the fans before and after he came back from his pro-longed injury. The fans "thanked" him in return by giving him quieter crowd reactions.

-Kurt Angle....same thing. How many times have the fans flat out CHEERED the guy as a heel......only to have the fans turn AGAINST Angle whenever the WWE tried to push him as a face. Duh.

-Goldberg.....ridiculous backstage skit with Goldust. WWE tried to make him more "personnable." The fans turned on him BIG time. Steiner, Nash, same thing.

With the exception of Jeff Hardy (who in actuality, never actually sucked up to the fans.....was always just himself), I can't think of ANYONE who has been a successful face as a result of the WWE TRYING to get the fans to like the wrestler. ALL of the most popular wrestlers ultimately became popular as a result of their heelish characters....and the foundation that their heelish characters set.

[Jeritron]

This is quite a common trend. I agree. It's why the Kennedys and MVPs are getting over. It's why Cena and Orton got over so huge before they changed them. And ultimately, it's why stars like Austin, Rock, HBK, Jericho, Angle and others ever got over at all.

There are still, today and in recent years, a few exceptions of stars who get over as pure faces. This is more indicative of other things concerning those wrestlers however, and not the trends with fans over the past 10-12 years. Jeff Hardy is over huge, but he's been over huge for a while and it's not really anything to do with whether hes a heel or face. There are also a few others over the past years, but people don't want a hero who eats their vitamins and says their prayers. They resent them. They want an edge to them.

Other than that, the pure face hasn't quite worked since the days of Hogan.

[Shadow]

I love you too Heyman.

[Kane Knight]

When I read the topic title, I thought no. However, your further explanation is semi-reasonable. One of the things that's killing faces is that they're so amazingly bland. Heels are more interesting, simply because they have fewer rules.

One thing I'd also point out:

Things need to be dirtier, just not in the sense of the usual "poop" jokes.

[Heyman]

There are still, today and in recent years, a few exceptions of stars who get over as pure faces. This is more indicative of other things concerning those wrestlers however, and not the trends with fans over the past 10-12 years. Jeff Hardy is over huge, but he's been over huge for a while and it's not really anything to do with whether hes a heel or face. There are also a few others over the past years, but people don't want a hero who eats their vitamins and says their prayers. They resent them. They want an edge to them.



Good point. One reason why I think Jeff Hardy got over in the way that he did (i.e. a pure face), is because....

1) He stayed true to himself all these years. Jeff was himself, and the fans respected that.

2) He had a little mystique and intrigue to his character (which helped the fans care somewhat about Jeff Hardy).

3) His aerial abilities.

4) He never once kissed the fans' ass.

I'm very proud of Jeff for being in the position that he's in today. Hopefully, he takes the ball and runs with it.

[Kane Knight]

Jeff never changing certainly helps. I don't think it has as much to do with him being "true to himself" and more that they pushed the character well and never really tried to change or improve it.

[Heyman]

One of the things that's killing faces is that they're so amazingly bland. Heels are more interesting, simply because they have fewer rules.



Yep. You hit the nail on the head. Again - it's all about CHARACTERS. Fans don't give a crap who the WWE wants them to cheer. They might initially, but if the character is too bland, the fans will have no problem turning (or even worse, tuning out/ignoring).

What disturbs me the most, is that the WWE seemingly has realized this trend.

Is it just me, or does the WWE really expect the fans to cheer loudly for Bobby Lashley when he returns? Is it just me, or will the WWE actually be "really surprised" when the fans ultimately turn on Bobby Lashley?

[Heyman]

Jeff never changing certainly helps. I don't think it has as much to do with him being "true to himself" and more that they pushed the character well and never really tried to change or improve it.

Yeah - I see what you're saying. I think what I meant about Jeff being "true to himself" is how the fans perceived him to be. Fans don't like phonies. In the fans' eyes, I think they perceived as Jeff being himself....and they dug that (or are currently digging that).

[IC Champion]

I agree with parts and such, but you still need a "heel" and a "face". Now I dont think it should be so clear cut and simple, add some depth to the heel, or face. Not just have a good guy for the sake of a good guy. It's almost like their faces are inhuman in that they are all "model citizens". No one is souly 100% good, and no one is 100% souly a bad evil person, well their are but I'm not here to talk politics.

It's like they've gone back to the 80's with the classic hero vs the classic bad guy, it was boring than, and it's fucking boring now.

[Heyman]

I agree with parts and such, but you still need a "heel" and a "face".

I totally agree with this. However - my whole argument is that the FANS should decide how is a heel and face....NOT the WWE.

Let all the wrestlers act heelish if they so choose, so that their characters can be further maximized.

-Let the fans cheer whoever's character they love the most.

There will ALWAYS be wrestlers that the fans cheer for.

[BigDaddyCool]

It would get old. Some people are better as faces.

[Heyman]

It would get old. Some people are better as faces.

Not everyone would HAVE to act heelish. Only if they chose to (i.e. to maximize their characters). Wrestlers should have a choice (I believe that most wrestlers would choose to act heelish).

However - my thread title was a bit misleading.

[IC Champion]

I totally agree with this. However - my whole argument is that the FANS should decide how is a heel and face....NOT the WWE.


That's what I agree with, have someone just be a "person", with certain character traits, and have the fans decide if they want to cheer, or boo, becuase well let's face it, everyone who is supposed to be a good guy isn't always the most popular person in the world, and can often times be hated.

[thedamndest]

This is one of the reasons that Raw's announce team is horrible compared to ECW/Smackdown. Raw sucks the faces dicks, hates the heels and so forth; Smackdown and ECW do that somewhat but do a much better job of acknowledging the heel's talent and telling the story of what the heel is trying to accomplish in the ring (not just BAH GAWDing everything in sight).

[BigDaddyCool]

Not everyone would HAVE to act heelish. Only if they chose to (i.e. to maximize their characters). Wrestlers should have a choice (I believe that most wrestlers would choose to act heelish).

However - my thread title was a bit misleading.

But you asked "what if everyone acted heelish..."

[Kane Knight]

The best thing about this is that it's the perfect copout for WWE.

It's clear that WWE's about as on-the-pulse in terms of what people want as your average polka player is in touch with the top forty crowd. Weird Al doesn't count, as I said average, and he's far less deranged.

There's no other way to say it. What they did with John Cena just proves it. You can say the fans are fickle, but they didn't react that way to the Rock or Austin, and Cena's supposed to be the equivalent.

So they can let the fans decide, without actually pretending to be that interested.

The only downside is it requires them to stop the "Iron fist" sort of shit.

[KYR]

Remember in 2002 when The Rock was EXTREMELY stale?

:wtf:

[Y2Ant]

It's funny because I remember discussing this idea with a friend a few years ago, I think it would legit bring some credibility back to pro wrestling, as you don't have a heel and a face in the UFC for example, a guy who acts like a dick like Tito Ortiz seems to be loved by most fans. I would like it personally, I mean when you look at how many of the top guys over the past decade got over as a heel before being a popular face, it's hard to dismiss the idea. They would never do it though.

[Y2Ant]

This is one of the reasons that Raw's announce team is horrible compared to ECW/Smackdown. Raw sucks the faces dicks, hates the heels and so forth; Smackdown and ECW do that somewhat but do a much better job of acknowledging the heel's talent and telling the story of what the heel is trying to accomplish in the ring (not just BAH GAWDing everything in sight).

Yes, that fucking pisses me off so much, when HHH sledgehammers Umaga that was ok, despite all the shit he did as a heel. It's quite insulting to watch at times. Color guys like Tazz and JBL at least make heels look credible in the ring.

[SammyG]

I agree.

[Skull316]

This is one of the reasons that Raw's announce team is horrible compared to ECW/Smackdown. Raw sucks the faces dicks, hates the heels and so forth; Smackdown and ECW do that somewhat but do a much better job of acknowledging the heel's talent and telling the story of what the heel is trying to accomplish in the ring (not just BAH GAWDing everything in sight).

Yeah I've noticed this as well. I remember once upon a time King pushed the heels and JR stuck with the faces and the two of them argued, much like Cole/JBL these days. I'm not sure exactly when King became such a wuss because I didn't watch for about 2 years, and when I started watching again, King had been completely pussified.

[Heyman]

:wtf:


At Summerslam 02', The Rock got flat out booed against Brock Lesnar. Earlier that year when The Rock fought Angle and Taker in a triple threat match for the Undisputed heavyweight title, the crowd was pro-Angle. The Rock almost generated as much heat as Undertaker.

At Wrestlemania 18 earlier that year, almost everyone cheered Hogan against The Rock.

The Rock's decrease in popularity may have been accelerated by other factors as well (i.e. the fans realizing that The Rock would never be a full-time wrestler again). However - the main thing that The Rock did WRONG in 2002, was he started kissing the fans' ass........a CARDINAL sin (he was actually doing this in mid/late 2001, but the fans still loved The Rock based on his past reputation).

The absolute "Rock Bottom" for The Rock (as a face), was during the Awards Night (greatest in the last decade?). This might have been in early 2003 however. The Rock cut a promo from Hollywood, and used material on Stephanie McMahon that was "original" in 2001. During that promo, The Rock received almost ZERO crowd reaction and got a few boo's.


So - to answer you 'WTF' smilie, I believe that The Rock had clearly become stale for all of the above reasons.

[Jeritron]

Yea he was getting a "boring" chant. The Rock started to go overboard with his promos, and he would only come back for a couple months at a time.

[Skippord]

Settle down there Vince Russo

[Heyman]

Yea he was getting a "boring" chant. The Rock started to go overboard with his promos, and he would only come back for a couple months at a time.

And the AMAZING thing about The Rock, is how a little less than two months later (with his Hollywood character and Hollywood entrance music), The Rock won back ALL of his fans. Actually, he achieved this in about 5-6 weeks.

In The Rock/Austin match at Wrestlemania 19, The Rock actually got cheered more (against Austin....a wrestler who's gimmick was stale itself...I'll comment on Austin in a minute).

When Rock fought Goldberg, The Rock got a large majority of the cheers (against a Goldberg who was being pushed terribly....and was sucking up to the fans, doing backstage garbage with Goldust, etc., etc.).

As far as Austin goes, the worst mistake they ever made with the guy was making him go back to his OLD entrance music/personality after Survivor Series 2001. Does anyone remember that? Why oh why didn't they keep his awesome alliance music?!?!? It's little things like that which the WWE really dropped the ball on.

[Heyman]

Settle down there Vince Russo

Was this directed at me?

If so.....fuck you man! :foc:

[Jeritron]

I hate how quick Austin's transformation to face was after Survivor Series.

[Skippord]

Was this directed at me?

If so.....fuck you man! :foc:
Yes

and ouch :'(

[KYR]

At Summerslam 02', The Rock got flat out booed against Brock Lesnar. Earlier that year when The Rock fought Angle and Taker in a triple threat match for the Undisputed heavyweight title, the crowd was pro-Angle. The Rock almost generated as much heat as Undertaker.

At Wrestlemania 18 earlier that year, almost everyone cheered Hogan against The Rock.

The Rock's decrease in popularity may have been accelerated by other factors as well (i.e. the fans realizing that The Rock would never be a full-time wrestler again). However - the main thing that The Rock did WRONG in 2002, was he started kissing the fans' ass........a CARDINAL sin (he was actually doing this in mid/late 2001, but the fans still loved The Rock based on his past reputation).

The absolute "Rock Bottom" for The Rock (as a face), was during the Awards Night (greatest in the last decade?). This might have been in early 2003 however. The Rock cut a promo from Hollywood, and used material on Stephanie McMahon that was "original" in 2001. During that promo, The Rock received almost ZERO crowd reaction and got a few boo's.


So - to answer you 'WTF' smilie, I believe that The Rock had clearly become stale for all of the above reasons.

Funnily enough I agree with you.

If you were to ask me who my favourite was, Face-Rock or Heel-Rock, it's a no-brainer. Heel-Rock, without a doubt was the most entertaining of all characters in the modern era (my opinion).

When Hollywood called he turned face for a while trying to win back support from the fan base who thought that he "sold out". While this would have been Vince's call, I always felt Rocky was uncomfortable with it - he knew it looked like he was sucking up.

When he then "turned" on the fans and became a heel again, he was once again entertaining - it was around this time he made the famous promos with the Hamburgler - oops sorry, the Hurricane, and even put him over on RAW. That, for me defined him as a person. I doubt Hogan would have ever agreed to have lost to a lower card wrestler in that way. The fans knew it and the fans appreciated it, and as a heel, his popularity soared again.

[Stickman]

Doesn't TNA have a tonne of people who are neither face or heel so you don't know who to cheer?

[Kane Knight]

Doesn't TNA have a tonne of people who are neither face or heel so you don't know who to cheer?TNA's a booking clusterfuck independent to this notion.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Jeff never changing certainly helps. I don't think it has as much to do with him being "true to himself" and more that they pushed the character well and never really tried to change or improve it.

I agree. In fact, I'd got as far as to say that it has more to do with him jumping off ladders than anything. He's still the same spot monkey in image and character, even if he has grown as a performer.

[Mr. Nerfect]

:wtf:

The Rock became very stale in 2002. In retrospect, he would completely blow anything the WWE has had in recent years out of the water, but at the time, he was so boring.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I was made a topic comparing the WWE to Oz. If you have ever seen that show, there are some likable characters, that you want to see survive the episode, and others that you are happy to see shanked. The general rule is that they are all scum for being in prison, anyway. That is the attitude the WWE should take. Every single wrestler on their roster is probably someone who would rather settle a situation with violence instead of words. That's the kind of aura the industry creates for itself. It is foolish to put guys over as saints, it makes no sense. If John Cena is such a hero, why isn't he feeding starving children in Africa? Why the fuck hasn't he F-U'd dictatorship?

I'd be much more interested in the WWE if guys like Matt Hardy were allowed to keep their "Matt Facts," even as faces, and if Balls Mahoney could get fed up and knock Kelly Kelly on her ass without being booed. Those kind of things were the essence of the Attitude era. You were watching people you did not want to meet on the street and necessarily get autographs from. They were just badasses, and you went for the guy you liked more.

Someone who would make an awesome face as he is, is MVP. Just have him point out the time he spent in prison, and how he's since found something he is good at, and makes a lot of money doing it. BAM! There is his character. It can be face or heel. People can admire MVP for it, or they can hate him for condescending their contentment in their average existences. The WWE would of course shed any kind of depth to get him to that face status.

One face that the WWE has hope with, is Chuck Palumbo.

*SMACKDOWN! SPOILERS*

Chuck Palumbo loses to Jamie Noble, which means that Michelle McCool will agree to go out with Jamie Noble. This is the perfect angle for Palumbo, if you ask me. They have established that Chuck is not perfect, he can lose, and lose things that mean a lot to him. He is also getting frustrated. He wants something more with Michelle McCool, and Jamie Noble, a guy he believes he is better than, is getting closer to achieving that goal than he is. There is some room for jealousy in this program, and even room for McCool to develop a bit of a character. I'm just trying to imagine a line where she stops Chuck from interrupting her date with Jamie, telling Chuck that there is no clause in her contract with forces her to honour her bet with Jamie last week. She is out with him now because she wants to be.

This storyline between Chuck Palumbo, Michelle McCool and Jamie Noble could get all three over quite well. Definitely more than plain matches between the two, with Noble stealing bland victories, Chuck snapping his fingers and saying darn, and Michelle still staying with her man even though he loses, ever could.

Depth is what the WWE needs back. Triple H needs to be a dick to Jeff Hardy, and Jeff needs to get a little over-ambitious with Triple H. Shannon Moore should be crying for attention each week, and Mickie James should still be a little psychotic (bless her, though, she's managed to keep the same foreboding skip in her step, though).

One of my favourite moments in recent WWE times, and I was actually going to make a thread about it, as insignificant as the moment was, featured Mickie James kidnapping Trish Stratus' boyfriend (I think his name was "Jack"), and then Mickie and Trish were arguing the ring, as "Jack" was tied to a chair struggling. Mickie then took off his gag, and asked him what he thought about the situation. Jack's response? "I think you're both crazy!" Exactly, Jack, exactly. Why can't people in the WWE both be as bad as each other at times? You know, like people are in real life?

[Mr. Nerfect]

By the way, when John Cena returns, it should be technically as heel. Have Chris Jericho as the WWE Champion, and have John Cena return all serious and bittered by his injury. He's also pissed off that a guy he caused to get fired is holding his specialised belt. The women and children can cheer him, and some the older fans might be swayed to a deeper attitude. It also forces Chris Jericho to address his issues with Cena, and the whole Cena beating Jericho a few times thing.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Going off the Oz comment, WWE needs someone like Ryan O'Rielly from Oz... Maybe Mat Striker. Just someone who does so much shit, acomplishes so much, wins, yet never gets his hands dirty...

[Johnny Vegas]

Great thread. :y:

The Rock was a little stale in 2002, but his stale days could kill, in recent years, anyone's golden days. I was wondering why they wouldn't switch him, but i guess it was because he was leaving.

I have thought like this thread for a looong time. What the WWE needs to realize is this: The same people who kept you wealthy, Vince, are the same people that you might want to appeal to. When you lose those fans, then your ratings go down. Because if you lose those people, then what about the "word of mouth" advertisment? Personally, i wouldn't TELL anyone to watch RAW like i would have about 5-7 years ago.

It (WWE) does need that "real" factor it once had. Everybody doesn't have to be a cold-hearted badass, but we know what works for who.

[Theo Dious]

I want to go back to Angle/Gurrerro at WMXX. Here you had a clear heel, and a face with heelish tactics. The crowd was so split that sustained, dueling, audible chants of "LET'S GO ANGLE" "ANGLE SUCKS" were a highlight of the match. I'm not saying every guy should cheat, but the fact that fans had such a choice of who to cheer for MADE half of that match.

[Corkscrewed]

Why the fuck hasn't he F-U'd dictatorship?
JR: BAH GAWD!!! John Cena just slammed Kim Jong Il to the people's mat!!! And he's got him locked in the STFU!!! BAW GAWD he's feeding the North Koreans!!! He's feeding the North Koreans!!!!

[Corkscrewed]

BTW, HHH is another current example of a relatively successful face. He's been toned down a bit, but they've let him keep his edge and heelish traits. Thus, the crowd will still react to him. He's not Mr. Bland, so he works as a face.

[Kane Knight]

JR: BAH GAWD!!! John Cena just slammed Kim Jong Il to the people's mat!!! And he's got him locked in the STFU!!! BAW GAWD he's feeding the North Koreans!!! He's feeding the North Koreans!!!!

:rofl:

[Mr. Nerfect]

BTW, HHH is another current example of a relatively successful face. He's been toned down a bit, but they've let him keep his edge and heelish traits. Thus, the crowd will still react to him. He's not Mr. Bland, so he works as a face.

Well, you see, I disagree with that. Triple Z is as bland as anything to me, but he is definitely more likable when he does do anything to win, and is the same son of a bitch who slept his way to the top. He is bound to come out somewhat heelish in his feud with Jeff Hardy, and I think it might actually help him get a better holding as a face, in my opinion.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Someone I am worried about is Chris Jericho. You can sense the blandness in the writing of his character. It was there before he left, and it is too pure to really connect with on the level that people connected with Jericho in 1999/2000/2001.

He's basking too much in the fans' reactions, and he's trying to appeal too much to the fans. Jericho was great when he was telling us that we wanted to see him with girly hair, flamboyant jackets and a wannabe rock-star attitude. Right now, we're seeing Jericho ask us if we want to see him...with girly hair, flamboyant jackets and a wannabe rock-star attitude. He needs to get that arrogance back against him. He needs to put himself over as the greatest thing since sex, and the man with 1,004 holds. That man will get cheered much more loudly than "I'm going to beat you up, because I'm a face" Jericho.

[Heyman]

Someone I am worried about is Chris Jericho. You can sense the blandness in the writing of his character. It was there before he left, and it is too pure to really connect with on the level that people connected with Jericho in 1999/2000/2001.

He's basking too much in the fans' reactions, and he's trying to appeal too much to the fans. Jericho was great when he was telling us that we wanted to see him with girly hair, flamboyant jackets and a wannabe rock-star attitude. Right now, we're seeing Jericho ask us if we want to see him...with girly hair, flamboyant jackets and a wannabe rock-star attitude. He needs to get that arrogance back against him. He needs to put himself over as the greatest thing since sex, and the man with 1,004 holds. That man will get cheered much more loudly than "I'm going to beat you up, because I'm a face" Jericho.

^^^^^^^^

I couldn't have said it better myself (well actually....I could, but I'm trying to be more modest these days ;)).

Totally agree with you in regards to Jericho.

The other point I'd like to bring up, is something that BigdaddyCool alluded to earlier in this thread.

Even if everyone TRIED to act heel, it ultimately wouldn't work.

However - this is the beautiful part....and this is the part where a bit of pyschology comes into play.

1) The fans don't want to be told what to do....and who to cheer for.

2) It's impossible for EVERY single guy to be a heel. Even if the WWE tried to pull it off, the fans would cheer whoever they thought was the COOLEST....and THAT is the good news!

The fans would literally be BEGGING to cheer someone (due to the abundance of heels). Due to the fans' desperation to cheer someone, they would CHOOSE who they want to cheer for. Since the fans would choose the most 'over' and 'coolest' characters (combined with the fact that there would be little or no "PURE faces", these wrestlers would get MASSIVE face pops....provided that they kept their heelish characters, but simply directed it towards their opponents....i.e. Austin/98, The Rock/99, Undertaker).


Another observation I'd like to make (which I've mentioned before): John Cena.

Most people view John Cena as a failure as a face. I however - view Cena as a TREMENDOUS heel (even though he tries to act like a face). Think about it. When John Cena faced Triple H at Wrestlemania a few years ago, the guy was booed out of the building.

When Cena faced RVD at ECW One Night Stand in 06', the heat he garnered was unreal. The same can be said when Cena faced HBK at last year's Wrestlemania.

Bottom line? If Cena wasn't injured and was STILL in the WWE, I would have kept him EXACTLY as is. Instead of putting him against medicore heelish opponents such as Umaga, Khali, etc., or having him feud with guys like Edge, HBK for the trillionth time, I would have put him up against guys like Dave Batista, Undertaker, Triple H (again), and even someone like Hulk Hogan.

It's all about perception.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think John Cena's character would need a little tweaking if he were to be an effective heel. Even if he just hangs around with Vince a lot, or wears a suit to the arena (or Vince says that he doesn't need to wear a suit, when all other employees do). Just some kind of portrayal of John Cena as the company man.

[Heyman]

I think John Cena's character would need a little tweaking if he were to be an effective heel. Even if he just hangs around with Vince a lot, or wears a suit to the arena (or Vince says that he doesn't need to wear a suit, when all other employees do). Just some kind of portrayal of John Cena as the company man.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I don't quite agree. I think a large reason why Cena garners such (spectacular) heel heat nowadays, is because the fans aren't SUPPOSED to boo him......but do it out of spite/defiance.

In other words, the fans absolutely love doing what they're not "supposed" to do. Because of this, there is far more passion involved in hating Cena.

Once you put Cena in a suit however, that natural passion of hating Cena will die down. Why? Because - now the WWE is TELLING you to boo Cena. The WWE is TELLING the fans what to do. The fans would still 'boo' loudly for a "corporate type" Cena, but the passion wouldn't be the same.

Think back to WM-18 with Hulk Hogan/The Rock. A large reason why Hulk Hogan could such a HUUUUGE face pop IMO, is because the fans "dared to be different".....and reveled in the idea of going against "what they were supposed to do." As a result, Hulkamania was reborn.

Ever notice how whenever Hogan comes back now, his pops aren't quite the same? (and in a matter of few weeks, his face pops start to die down quite noticeably?). It's because the WWE is TELLING the fans to CHEER him.....and we've already established the fact that the fans do NOT like being told what to do.

Atleast that's my take on it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I don't quite agree. I think a large reason why Cena garners such (spectacular) heel heat nowadays, is because the fans aren't SUPPOSED to boo him......but do it out of spite/defiance.

In other words, the fans absolutely love doing what they're not "supposed" to do. Because of this, there is far more passion involved in hating Cena.

Once you put Cena in a suit however, that natural passion of hating Cena will die down. Why? Because - now the WWE is TELLING you to boo Cena. The WWE is TELLING the fans what to do. The fans would still 'boo' loudly for a "corporate type" Cena, but the passion wouldn't be the same.

Think back to WM-18 with Hulk Hogan/The Rock. A large reason why Hulk Hogan could such a HUUUUGE face pop IMO, is because the fans "dared to be different".....and reveled in the idea of going against "what they were supposed to do." As a result, Hulkamania was reborn.

Ever notice how whenever Hogan comes back now, his pops aren't quite the same? (and in a matter of few weeks, his face pops start to die down quite noticeably?). It's because the WWE is TELLING the fans to CHEER him.....and we've already established the fact that the fans do NOT like being told what to do.

Atleast that's my take on it.

That's true, and I somewhat agree, but what the WWE currently do with John Cena is not let the fans decide, but rather, tell the fans to cheer. How is that any different than telling the fans to boo, hypothetically?

The big entrances, and merchandise...the guy is made out to be a hero needlessly. It's the WWE trying to sway the fans one way. Putting Cena in a suit may be swaying them, but it's pretty much the same thing. It'd just be a more natural and honest take on John Cena's current character.

I wouldn't actually put Cena in a suit, but I would have him hold the door for Stephanie McMahon when she arrives, and hang out in Vince's office, maybe bring Coach presents. Just make him a real suck-up character. Which is pretty much a slight extention on what he currently does.

[Stickman]

I do not miss Cena at all.

[Heyman]

I do not miss Cena at all.

Maybe - but I tend to believe that most people do (even if they don't openly admit it). Cena stirs up emotion in people (hatred for the most part). Currently in the WWE, most wrestlers stir up "blah" for an emotional response.

I for one, like Cena. IMO - he's one of few main-eventers in the WWE that....

a) Isn't 5+ years passed his prime (i.e. like Triple H, HBK, Undertaker, Chris Jericho???, etc.).

b) Isn't over 35 years of age

c) Still has lots of room to get better in terms of his marketing potential and overall gimmick.

IMO - Cena is the goods......and is (was) one of the best things going for the WWE whether we like it or not.

Every time Cena faced a high calibre opponent (i.e. RVD, HBK, Triple H, etc.,), Cena drew SPECTACULAR emotion from the crowd (i.e. Cena sucks!). Put Cena against crap ike Khali, Umaga, or Edge for the trillionth time, then of course the crowd reactions are going to be shitty. Heck - even The Rock would get limited reactions with those types of opponents.

[Stickman]

No honestly, I don't miss him at all. I watch Raw again now.