How credible is the IC belt right now?

[Jeritron]

Seriously, for the past two years we have mostly agreed upon the failing prestige of the IC gold and how it's no longer as credible as it once was.

But look at it now. For the past year Jeff Hardy has brought some serious credibility to it with some lengthy reigns, and as a fighting champion weekly. Also, being one of the top faces on Raw hasn't hurt either, as he gets the pop of the night and steals the crowd just about every week.

And if his reigns, popularity, and match quality/frequency hasn't been good enough, the fact that he's on a roll and a half lately is HUGE. He's the IC champion and he's been going nuts lately, he just went over HHH, arguably the top name in the company..CLEAN. Now he's facing the WWE champion presumably while IC champion.

The IC belt right now might be the most credible belt going. I mean, he's been picking up cleaner wins over more credible stars than Orton or Edge. In a kayfabe sense, he might be the top ranking belt. I noticed in the Power 25 he was ranked #2 (not that that means anything but it indicates how he's been being pushed on the brand).

So what do you think? Best IC champion in a long long time. In fact, with him as #1 contender for the title he might be the most prominent IC champ since...who's the last person to do that, Warrior??

[Jordan]

Jeff Hardy and Umaga brought it up to its potential I think. I hope Jeff faces off at WM vs Edge in a Title for Title match, maybe even a ladder match.

[Stickman]

Before I read this thread I had to think of who the IC champ was.

[Jeritron]

Well aside from the opinions I put forth in that post, I think he's ABSOLUTELY the best IC champ since 04. More accurately, he's likely the best IC champ since 2000 or 1998 (Jericho, Angle, The Rock)

He's certainly the best in a long time

[Jeritron]

Before I read this thread I had to think of who the IC champ was.

That's clearly your fault.

[BigDaddyCool]

I think both the IC and US titles are the most credible they have been in years. They are more credible than the TNA title that is for sure.

[addy2hotty]

Was only a couple of months ago that certain people were saying that the belt had no real credibility and required a Mr Kennedy run to bring it back to a decent level. Jeff Hardy was champion then as well. I think the quote was 'the belt NEEDS Mr Kennedy right now'.

My goodness, how things change. Or is that stay the same?

[BigDaddyCool]

I never said it needed Mr. Kennedy.

[BigDaddyCool]

I did say Mr. Kennedy needs more time with an IC level title before being in the mainevent.

[addy2hotty]

I never said it needed Mr. Kennedy.

I wasn't referring to you BDC.

[Theo Dious]

Jeff Hardy and Umaga brought it up to its potential I think.

A year ago I'd have called you an idiot for saying that. But... fuck, it's true.

[Theo Dious]

Kennedy needs the IC title right now. The title does not need Kennedy.

[Jeritron]

Kennedy needs the IC title right now. The title does not need Kennedy.

Kennedy would be a good IC champ. Back when he was hot as hell after the MITB and the draft to Raw I felt that the IC belt was just okay, and that it could have benefited from Kennedy just as much as Kennedy could have benefited from it.

Now, he's tailed off but I think Kennedy woul still be a good choice. Jeff's a great champion tho

[Nark Order]

Jeff Hardy has really stepped up with his in-ring work since his return and especially since he got the IC title. He's definitely got a specific type of charisma to him that isn't identifiable to too many people. I feel that his offense in the ring is a bit too all over the place at times though. He'll need some work before he can be expected to carry a company. His pairing with the IC title has indeed not only helped him but it has helped the credibility of the belt itself. Part of this is in part to Umaga as well though. Who would've thought that Hardy and Umaga would compliment each other's styles so well in matches?

[Kane Knight]

Before I read this thread I had to think of who the IC champ was.

[KYR]

Kennedy needs the IC title right now. The title does not need Kennedy.

I think Darth's comment just about sums this up.

"Kennedy needs the IC title". If the IC title had NO credibility then NO ONE would need it. Obviously, if we feel that someone needs this title, we have a new-found respect for it.

Recently, some posters have suggested to bring back past titles e.g. Hardcore, European etc. If they did this, it would only water-down the value of the mid-level titles and reduce their credibility.

IC and US titles are clawing their way back up the respectability ladder, lets not send them crashing back down.

[Londoner]

Now that jeff is going to challenge for the wwe title, imo that lifts the credibility of the ic title since he's champ, and if they continue to book the ic title this way in future , then that can only be good.

[Bad Company]

Before I read this thread I had to think of who the IC champ was.
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[DrA]

I always thought that the IC title should be held by guys that you thought had a chance to be WWF champion eventually as well. When guys like The Rock, Triple H, Ken Shamrock, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, and a few years before that with Razor Ramon, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, etc, had the IC belt, they had the feel of a main eventer, even though I guess they were technically in the upper mid card.

That being said, it seems recently as the belt had become merely a stepping stone for the WWE title instead of a credible belt on its own. Want to make Randy Orton a main eventer? Just strap the IC title around him for a while until he gets the feel of a main eventer. Eventually the prestige of the title wore off with that sort of thinking. Guys like Umaga and Jeff Hardy, as of late, have kept the title reasonably close to the main event scene, rather than giving the belt to someone like Paul London, who would defend the title on Sunday Night Heat.

The problem with RAW right now is that there plainly just are not enough wrestlers on the roster to stabilize an upper mid card, meaning it's hard to maintain consistent credibility to the IC belt at this point in time. I'm trying not to get the roster split involved in this, but it's hard not to when trying to contemplate an issue like this.

[Stickman]

I always thought that the IC title should be held by guys that you thought had a chance to be WWF champion eventually as well. When guys like The Rock, Triple H, Ken Shamrock, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, and a few years before that with Razor Ramon, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, etc, had the IC belt, they had the feel of a main eventer, even though I guess they were technically in the upper mid card.

That being said, it seems recently as the belt had become merely a stepping stone for the WWE title instead of a credible belt on its own. Want to make Randy Orton a main eventer? Just strap the IC title around him for a while until he gets the feel of a main eventer. Eventually the prestige of the title wore off with that sort of thinking. Guys like Umaga and Jeff Hardy, as of late, have kept the title reasonably close to the main event scene, rather than giving the belt to someone like Paul London, who would defend the title on Sunday Night Heat.

The problem with RAW right now is that there plainly just are not enough wrestlers on the roster to stabilize an upper mid card, meaning it's hard to maintain consistent credibility to the IC belt at this point in time. I'm trying not to get the roster split involved in this, but it's hard not to when trying to contemplate an issue like this.

Good point. :y:

[Londoner]

The problem with RAW right now is that there plainly just are not enough wrestlers on the roster to stabilize an upper mid card, meaning it's hard to maintain consistent credibility to the IC belt at this point in time. I'm trying not to get the roster split involved in this, but it's hard not to when trying to contemplate an issue like this.

You're right about it being the fault of the roster split, its just not the same when the company is split int wo.

[St. Jimmy]

Kennedy could carry the IC Strap into a massive fued and make it look like it's bigger than any world title.

[The One]

Kennedy could carry the IC Strap into a massive fued and make it look like it's bigger than any world title.

You are incorrect.

[El Fangel]

As I said before, the IC Championship should also be on the line during MITB. It would also give the chance to Unify the IC and World/WWE Titles, which I believe has never been done.

[Jeritron]

As I said before, the IC Championship should also be on the line during MITB. It would also give the chance to Unify the IC and World/WWE Titles, which I believe has never been done.

If you mean someone holding the IC and WWE title at the same time, Warrior did that. I think that's all tho

[El Fangel]

I forgot about that.

And then he went crazy.

If Jeff did would there be a change?

[Jeritron]

You know, I hope Jeff does it. But realistically they'll probably have him lose the IC title right before, or right after (if indeed he does win the WWE title, and happens to be IC champ at the time)

[Jeritron]

Jeff will be a grand slam champion btw. I believe....he was european champ right?

[Xero]

Got to love Jeff didn't have the title on when he came down for his promo tonight. Clearly it's EXTREMELY important.

[El Fangel]

I think he was, matt was I know. He also was LHW champ too.

Yeah he was the last Euro champ.

[Jeritron]

Yea I just checked. He's been IC, Tag, European, LightHeavyweight, Hardcore champion. If he wins he WWE title he's won all their in house titles ever offered, except womens.
Of course they've had the US and Cruiserweight titles, and the World. But they're the WCW belts.

[Xero]

Grand Slam Champions, as far as I'm concerned, can ONLY be considered as such for holding the WWE, IC, Euro and Tag champions.

Anything else is just four titles because, at this point, there are 9 titles in WWE and they get whored around like Lita at her goodbye party.

[El Fangel]

Anything else is just four titles because, at this point, there are 9 titles in WWE and they get whored around like Lita at her goodbye party.

That may be an over-statement, as most of the past year, the WWE Title was on Cena.

Lets say that title period, was Edges turn at the party.

[thedamndest]

When Warrior won the WWF(E) Championship he had to vacate the IC belt. When HHH beat Kane it unified the titles. I think the former is more likely if Jeff does win at the Rumble, though doing so would invoke a mention of the Warrior so he will probably just drop it first.

[El Fangel]

When HHH beat Kane it unified the titles.

When was this, I forget.

[thedamndest]

No Mercy 2002.

[Jeritron]

Grand Slam Champions, as far as I'm concerned, can ONLY be considered as such for holding the WWE, IC, Euro and Tag champions.

Anything else is just four titles because, at this point, there are 9 titles in WWE and they get whored around like Lita at her goodbye party.

Well that would include Jeff if he ever wins the WWE belt. That also includes HBK, HHH, Jericho, Angle, Eddie Guerrero and RVD. By that criteria, those are the grandlsam champions.
The only other person to be a grandslam champion technically is JBL, although I don't consider him one because I agree with you about the criteria.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Got to love Jeff didn't have the title on when he came down for his promo tonight. Clearly it's EXTREMELY important.

See, this is it. Sure, Jeff Hardy has, to my surprise, become something quite good recently, but what good is being the IC Champion is the WWE pretends the belt doesn't even exist.

Honestly, I hope a heel costs Jeff Hardy his match at the Royal Rumble, and does so because Jeff is making the IC Title look like crap. I don't care if it's Carlito, DH Smith or Charlie fucking Haas. There needs to be a wake-up call to Jeff being IC Champion.

To be honest, I'd love for Randy Orton to up the ante in their Royal Rumble match, and request that the IC Title be on the line. Fuck, if the WWE truly cared about the belt, they'd have had it on the line during the match at Armageddon. What the WWE was basically suggesting there, was that being in the WWE Title division is more important than being IC Champion. It creates the impression that there is a huge field between being WWE Champion and being IC Champion, when really, the WWE would be best served to making the IC Title look like a silver medal.

[Jeritron]

See, this is it. Sure, Jeff Hardy has, to my surprise, become something quite good recently, but what good is being the IC Champion is the WWE pretends the belt doesn't even exist.

Honestly, I hope a heel costs Jeff Hardy his match at the Royal Rumble, and does so because Jeff is making the IC Title look like crap. I don't care if it's Carlito, DH Smith or Charlie fucking Haas. There needs to be a wake-up call to Jeff being IC Champion.

To be honest, I'd love for Randy Orton to up the ante in their Royal Rumble match, and request that the IC Title be on the line. Fuck, if the WWE truly cared about the belt, they'd have had it on the line during the match at Armageddon. What the WWE was basically suggesting there, was that being in the WWE Title division is more important than being IC Champion. It creates the impression that there is a huge field between being WWE Champion and being IC Champion, when really, the WWE would be best served to making the IC Title look like a silver medal.


You may actually be getting more absurd.

[BigDaddyCool]

I wasn't referring to you BDC.

Bullshit, everything refers to me. :mad:

[Jeritron]

I wasn't referring to you BDC.

No, you were referring to me, and you didn't actually refer to me. Man up brother.
Yes I said the IC belt needed Kennedy, or a guy like him. Meaning the IC title needed someone with a lot of heat who was on the way up to greater things by holding it.

Guess what, Jeff Hardy was over and performing well, but looked as though he wasn't growing any further. Now he's proven that he is, hence he has brought something more to his reign.
At the time, I felt what I said was true. It was also at a point before Kennedy got suspended and he was intended to be selected to be Vinces illegitimte child. This would be the push of a lifetime and would put him as a top heel in the main storyline of Raw, and guess what...the IC title would have benefited greatly from being in that spotlight and on him.
So yea, when I said it was true.

And right now, this thread it true. Look at Jeff Hardy right now, he's IC champion and he just pinned HHH and the WWE champion Orton clean in 24 hours.

Anywho, I like you as a poster but if you feel the need to throw jabs at me, throw them at me directly.

[Fox]

I still feel like the IC Title is lacking credibility. Jeff himself has gained tremendous amounts of credibility and respect over the past few months, but the IC Title is still merely a tool that the writers use to have two guys fight each other. There's no story to it. Not like when Austin threw Rock's IC Title into the river back in the late 90's. That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see.

Still, I'm glad that it IS being used, to some degree, to elevate Jeff to the main event.

[Indifferent Clox]

I think if anyone beats JEff Hardy for that they'll get huge heat.

[Mr. Nerfect]

You may actually be getting more absurd.

Um, how is that more absurd then me suggesting Funaki win the WWE Championship in a fluke win after he gets drafted from SmackDown! to RAW?

[Mr. Nerfect]

As much as he is lacking credibility, I think Santino Marella would make a great Intercontinental Champion right now. Have Carlito help Santino win the title. It's obvious the WWE has plans to stick them together, but instead of having them win the World Tag Team Championship from Hardcore Holly & Cody Rhodes (at least right away), have them help each other out as single wrestlers.

Santino could use the rub of a second IC Title reign, as his first one is still seen as a bit of a joke. Still, a successful reign would help patch that one up, and they'd see it as the first of multiple reigns. Santino is still (I believe) the first wrestler to ever win the IC Title in his WWE debut. Carlito won it in his RAW debut, but Santino won it in his WWE debut.

The reason I suggest Santino with the belt, and not Carlito, is because I think the best glue for keeping Santino and Carlito together is Maria. Carlito wants to bang Maria, he helps out Santino, and suggests that they get a working partnership going. Santino is a little aware of this, but needs Carlito's help. It's a great dynamic between the two, in my opinion.

The IC Title is a great stepping stone, but you can't put it on someone too high. Jeff Hardy is proving that right now, as the IC Title is being forgotten. It was also forgotten when Umaga was representing Vince McMahon against Bobby Lashley. Hell, the ECW Title was forgotten then. It would have been forgotten if Mr. Kennedy won it when he was on his upswing.

Santino Marella for next Intercontinental Champion. :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

I've done some half-drunken research, and I've decided to really bite into The One's claim that the US Title is more prestigious than the IC Title. I mean, look at the statistics of the titles.

Title Created:
* The US Title was created in 1975
* The IC Title was created in 1976

The US Title is the senior belt, with almost two years more history.

Most Reigns:
* Ric Flair has won the US Title six times officially
* Chris Jericho has won the IC Title seven times officially

To me, this states that the US Title is harder to win than the IC Title. Also, Ric Flair has been in contention for the US Title since its early days. Chris Jericho was six years old when the IC Title was created.

Longest Reign:
* Lex Luger held the US Title for 523 days
* Honky Tonk Man held the IC Title for 454 days

Generally speaking, longer reigns are associated with prestige. I don't necessarily agree, and I'm not too up-to-date with Luger's reign, but I do know that the Honky Tonk Man would often only retain his title because he lost by disqualification or countout, which meant the title would not change hands. While it says a lot that Honky Tonk losing the title sooner than Luger even with these heelish methods (people were obviously gunning for the belt really intensely), I think conventional wisdom says that the longer reign is better.

Shortest Reign:
* Stone Cold Steve Austin held the US Title for 5 minutes
* Chris Jericho held the IC Title for 10 minutes

Yeah, it's a little inconsistent, but I think having the shortest reign is also a plus, especially when changes occur immediately after the title is won, like in both these scenarios. Both belts were obviously given kinetic energy, but once again, you have the passionate challengers winning the belt quicker. This is kind of an irrelevent one, but I think the US Title also gets the nod, because one of the iconic holders of the IC Title is not also its shortest Champion.

Oldest Champion:
* Terry Funk won the US Title at 56 years and 85 days
* Ric Flair won the IC Title at 56 years and 205 days

This is an easy nudge for the US Title. An older man winning the belt makes it looker weaker. Technically, both wrestlers were the same age in years, although Ric Flair was apparently a little older, which gives the US Title the technical win.

Youngest Champion:
* David Flair won the US Title at 20 years and 121 days
* Jeff Hardy won the IC Title at 23 years and 222 days

This is a clear win for the IC Title, I think. A younger champion makes a title look easier to win, as if it doesn't even take experience. This is one for the IC Title.

Heaviest Champion:
* Big Show won the US Title at an alleged 507lbs
* Rikishi won the IC Title at an alleged 400lbs

This is a win for the US Title, because the bigger the champion is, the bigger the attention towards the belt is. Unfortunately, bigger does occasionally mean better, and having a 500+ pounder making the belt look worthy of holding is a lot more desireable than a 400+ pounder doing the same thing.

Lightest Champion:
* David Flair won the US Title at an alleged 204lbs
* Chyna won the IC Title at an alleged 155lbs

Another win for the US Title, because a larger smallest champion means that it is a lot harder for a guy of smaller size to win the belt (removing variables). 155lbs wrestlers can dream of winning the IC Title, and it being labeled a possibility. You need to gain approximately 50lbs before precident accepts your chances for the US Title, however.

Final Score:
* The US Title finishes with 7 points
* The IC Title finishes with 1 point

There are some areas where I feel that the points can be divided up, but even so, I believe the US Title wins the historical credibility challenge.

[Theo Dious]

Heaviest Champion:
* Big Show won the US Title at an alleged 507lbs
* Rikishi won the IC Title at an alleged 400lbs

Wait, so how heavy was Big Show supposed to be during his US title reign in WWE?

[Theo Dious]

Also, I demand you either add a point to the IC title, or else subtract one from the US, for the simple fact that the IC title has never been held by a man calling himself Hugh G. Rection.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wait, so how heavy was Big Show supposed to be during his US title reign in WWE?

At that stage (WrestleMania XX), I think he might have still been billed as 500lbs. That might have been when they called him 520lbs, though. Apparently he was also a legit 540lbs at one stage, though (think that might have all been at the end of his ECW run, though).

Fair point about Hugh G. Reaction. However the ECW Title was held by Justin Credible, and when the longest running champion in your title's history is someone known as a "Honky Tonk Man," then I'm not sure if you deserve to be rewarded.