Tell me about some good indy wrestlers and why they're good.

[JT]

I'm curious because I don't keep up with ROH or the independents.

Who be good out there and why?

[Mr. Nerfect]

While I'm not the biggest fan of him, Bryan Danielson is undeniably a great wrestler. He and Nigel McGuinness had what many reputable reporters are calling the Match of the Year. Danielson can mat-wrestle, he applies psychology in his matches, he can fly when he needs to for big spots, and he can implement a mixed martial arts style into his repertoire. The man is also quite funny, even if he does come with a bland looking image.

Basically, the guy was trained by Shawn Michaels and William Regal, and HBK said that Danielson was one of his best students, and Regal still looks out for Danielson and gives him career advice. If those two men get behind him, he's good enough in my books.

Nigel McGuinness is good when it comes to the mat-wrestling and psychology of matches. He was great during his ROH Pure Title reign. He's in a bit of a John Cena position at the moment, in that the fans are turning on him, and his style has taken on a "lariat, lariat, lariat" flavour. Some explain that away because he was feuding with Takeshi Morishima, and the high impact style was needed in storyline terms to explain how Nigel would knock Morishima the fuck down. He might go back to being great soon.

Jimmy Jacobs and Eddie Kingston cut some fucking amazing promos. WWKD would be able to acquaint you much better with Jacobs than I can. I haven't seen much of Kingston's work, but from what I hear, while it is not great, he's solid enough to let his promos carry him to the status where he is a wanted commodity on the independent scene.

Chris Hero has a lot of fanfare because of his versatility. He's a bigger guy that can work the European style (trained with Finlay, William Regal and Dave Taylor), the luchadore style and he's got a fairly entertaining personality. Claudio Castagnoli is another big guy with the European style (mixed with some high impact stuff, I believe) that is loved for his personality and character. They were great as The Kings of Wrestling. In the same breath as these men, Larry Sweeney deserves to be mentioned. He's the closest you will come to Bobby Heenan in today's wrestling climate. An old-school wrestler with a great character and some fun mic skills.

The Briscoes have been praised with keeping tag team wrestling alive while the WWE and TNA kill their divisions. They have also been accused with being spot monkies, but a lot of reputable critics that originally called them that earlier in their careers have reversed themselves on that decision. The Briscoes presented a lot of MOTY candidates in 2007. The main three I can think of is their GHC Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship match against Kotaro Suzuki & Ricky Marvin, their match against The Murder City Machine Guns and their Ladder War against Kevin Steen & El Generico. Spotty at times, they are pretty much unanimously considered the best tag team in wrestling currently.

Brent Albright is one of my personal favourites. He's always been one of the more solid talents out there. I heard good things about him before I even knew he was, as I read some interviews with wrestlers listing him as one of their favourite wrestlers to work with. These were under his previous names like Vinnie Valentino, Vance Vain and Slater Vain. He was booked fantastically by Paul Heyman in OVW, so it was very underwhelming when he got called up to SmackDown! as "Gunner Scott." He worked very closely with Benoit during this time, who he looked up to professionally, and I believe he got to further train with Benoit (as MVP also did). He was released because he was "too similar" to Chris Benoit in the ring, which I do not consider a bad thing. His work in ROH and OVW has shown he can be his own talent, though, and I expect the WWE to re-sign this guy soon.

[Stickman]

If they're good they'd be in the big 2 would they not?

[Fignuts]

Stickman, have you seen some of the people in the big 2?

[Mr. Nerfect]

If they're good they'd be in the big 2 would they not?

Nah, not always the case, but if you want to go by that logic:

The WWE apparently went knocking at Bryan Danielson's door. William Regal apparently told Harry Smith and Bryan Danielson to not sign with the WWE right away, and to get more seasoning around the world (because let's face it, the WWE does exactly encourage growth). Danielson also apparently wanted to complete his education, and the WWE's schedule would make that more difficult.

Delirious attracted the WWE's interest for a while, but he did not sign for one reason or another. Festus ended up with a gimmick similar to him.

Claudio Castagnoli was picked up by the WWE, but that never panned out. Reports state it was because of some kind of passport problems Claudio had.

Brent Albright was under WWE contract, too, and even made their programming. The WWE released him because he was "too similar to Chris Benoit," which (the controversy surrounding the man aside) is probably one of the best compliments you can give someone on their talent level.

[thecc]

Mike Quackenbush.

He is hands down the most knowledgeable wrestler on the indy scene. If you watch two of his matches between a wrestler, they won't be the same as he always has new reversals for moves. He's just an all around smart wrestler.

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Also to go further about Kingston. He just gets it. He may not have the flashiest moveset but he knows when to hit a move to get the reaction he wants. The matches he had with Chris Hero were just incredible.

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[Xero]

DEY IZ ALL DA BEZT CUZ DEY AINT IN WORLDVINCEENTERTAINMENT!11!

[Blitz]

TYSON FUCKING DUX

[Mr. Nerfect]

DEY IZ ALL DA BEZT CUZ DEY AINT IN WORLDVINCEENTERTAINMENT!11!

And who exactly are you mocking here? You have seemed to have made an ass out of yourself, I guess.

[JT]

Hey, I still love wrestling, but the stuff I see regularly on tv isn't cutting it for me anymore. I'm interested in hearing about indy wrestlers not to be impressed, but maybe to point me in the right direction of other stuff to look at.

[JT]

Mike Quackenbush.

He is hands down the most knowledgeable wrestler on the indy scene. If you watch two of his matches between a wrestler, they won't be the same as he always has new reversals for moves. He's just an all around smart wrestler.

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Also to go further about Kingston. He just gets it. He may not have the flashiest moveset but he knows when to hit a move to get the reaction he wants. The matches he had with Chris Hero were just incredible.

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I'll probably check some of Quackenbush...seems really good. Kingston just seems average to me though from what you've shown. I guess I just need to see one of his whole matches to get it though. :-\

[thecc]

I'll probably check some of Quackenbush...seems really good. Kingston just seems average to me though from what you've shown. I guess I just need to see one of his whole matches to get it though. :-\Yeah, the best way to get a feel for King is really watch his whole matches. If you're signed up for pwtorrents i can recommend some stuff to download.

[JT]

I am signed up, but I already forgot my account.

Still if you want to suggest anything, I'll still give it a look.

[thecc]

As far as Kingston goes some shows to check out are

Chikara

Negative Balance- vs Chris Hero
Young Lions cup 4 night 3- vs Larry Sweeney
The crushing weight of mainstream ignorance- vs Larry Sweeney
the Cibernetico Cometh- 16 Man Torneo Cibernetico
From Zero to Hero (and Castagnoli)- with Shane Storm & Mike Quackenbush vs. Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli, and Larry Sweeney
Brick- vs Chuck Taylor
Talent borrows; Genius steals- Strap Match: vs Larry Sweeney
Rey de voladores- vs Hallowicked
Avniversario?- vs Hallowicked
Showdown in Crisland- vs Tim Donst
Cibernetico and Robin- with Sabian and Joker vs the Colony
Chapter 11- Falls count anywhere: vs hallowicked

As far as CZW goes i'd check out anything from 2005 on involving King and Chris Hero. There's a whole set of videos about their feud on youtube. A lot of the shows can be found on pwtorrents and the dvds can be found at www.smartmarkvideo.com

[ron the dial]

DEY IZ ALL DA BEZT CUZ DEY AINT IN WORLDVINCEENTERTAINMENT!11!
This is why I don't like you.

[Heros Welcome]

Noid pretty much covered the many greats in the land of the Independents. I too am a big Albright fan. I loved his stuff in OVW and love his work in ROH. Also HERO is the man to me. He can work a crowd great, and his style is very unique. Its only a matter of time before the E starts calling. Probably when Hero decides to do a crunch.

Also thecc mentioning Quack. The man just knows every in an out of wrestling. Very knowledgeable and very fun to watch, as he seems to come up with many different moves and reversals every match.

Some other names not mentioned that are very good workers would be... Roderick Strong, Kevin Steen seems to be getting better and better, El Generico, and I think Tyler Black could be HUGE one day. Also Aries is re establishing himself as an absolute ace for ROH.

[Fignuts]

Honestly, people talk about "ROH bots", but the the WWE bots on this site are just as bad.

[St. Jimmy]

Danielson is amazing, as long as you understand that he has the charisma of wet cardboard.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Danielson is amazing, as long as you understand that he has the charisma of wet cardboard.

I disagree. The guy's not Mr. Flash, but he has the right kind of charisma (more than he needs, actually) for the role he is trying to play. The guy actually has a lot of personality, he just filters it through the whole "no frills" wrestling persona.

[Fignuts]

I sometimes think Quackinbush is some sort of android, as his execution is perfectly flawess, despite even the intricate complexity of some of his manuevers. There is seriously not a hint of sloppiness. RVD should give him a bit of notice.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I sometimes think Quackinbush is some sort of android, as his execution is perfectly flawess, despite even the intricate complexity of some of his manuevers. There is seriously not a hint of sloppiness. RVD should give him a bit of notice.

The guy's really experienced isn't he?

[Skippord]

Whoa Quackenbush is ridiculous

[Fignuts]

The guy's really experienced isn't he?

I remember reading his articles in PWI when PWI was good.

SO thats about 10 years ago. Yeah I'd say he's experienced.

[Xero]

And who exactly are you mocking here? You have seemed to have made an ass out of yourself, I guess.

The general consensus of a hardcore ROH mark.

Basically, if they're in WWE they've "sold out" and suck because WWE's product sucks.

Maybe no one here, but they exist.

[Xero]

This is why I don't like you.

So I take it you think everyone in WWE sucks, right?

[Mr. Nerfect]

The general consensus of a hardcore ROH mark.

Basically, if they're in WWE they've "sold out" and suck because WWE's product sucks.

Maybe no one here, but they exist.

Oh, yeah, they do. But the WWE-biased fans are MUCH more uneducated, if you ask me.

[Xero]

Well, obviously.

If you're a ROH fan you MUST have come across WWE at least a few times.

[ron the dial]

So I take it you think everyone in WWE sucks, right?
More of why I dislike you. You generalize everybody so fucking much. No, I don't think everyone in WWE sucks. I think there are a lot of amazing talents that are being used to put on a product that doesn't interest me. Just because you're stupid enough to pretend that the entire indy scene sucks doesn't mean that I'm the same way with WWE.

[Fignuts]

Pretty much took the words out of my mouth Wex.

[FourFifty]

In an industry where everyone is screaming for the spot light, and everyone is trying to go over to top to shine, there is one man who dares to be generic....

El Generico!

Okay, the guy is at WWE's midcard level at best, but he has a few good tricks. He gets some mad air on a splitlegged moonsault, and his 450 is awesome. One of these days he's going to kill someone with his brain buster, but he works the gimmick. El Generico, the generic luchador.

[Mr. Nerfect]

In an industry where everyone is screaming for the spot light, and everyone is trying to go over to top to shine, there is one man who dares to be generic....

El Generico!

Okay, the guy is at WWE's midcard level at best, but he has a few good tricks. He gets some mad air on a splitlegged moonsault, and his 450 is awesome. One of these days he's going to kill someone with his brain buster, but he works the gimmick. El Generico, the generic luchador.

I was going to mention El Generico in my original post, but decided against it. I simply haven't seen enough of his work. I do know this, though: What I have seen has been very, very good. The guy is very entertaining, and I just love his gimmick. A Canadian luchadore by the name of "El Generico?" Come on.

He had a very good year in ROH and PWG, holding the PWG World Championship, and really earning a following in ROH. And by my calculations, he is only 23 years old. He still has a lot of growing as a performer to do. If the WWE were serious about their cruiserweight division, he would be a must to pick up. I also like his team with Kevin Steen.

Everyone should watch the Ladder War between The Briscoes & Kevin Steen & El Generico. Definitely one of the better Ladder Matches in recent history.

[ron the dial]

Everyone should watch the Ladder War between The Briscoes & Kevin Steen & El Generico. Definitely one of the better Ladder Matches in recent history.
This was the first Chicago show that I had missed in a year. What a bad show to miss :(

[Mr. Nerfect]

This was the first Chicago show that I had missed in a year. What a bad show to miss :(

Ah, damn. :(

Maybe you were destined to have a piece of rigging fall on you if you went, though, and fate was looking after you?

[ron the dial]

The Ladder War + Age of the Fall

I would have risked it. Fucking work ruins everything.

[Fignuts]

I've only seen a couple El Genericho matches, and they were exactly that. Although I won't judge, since it was only 2 matches.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The Ladder War + Age of the Fall

I would have risked it. Fucking work ruins everything.

I don't mean to rub it in, but that image of Jimmy Jacobs' white suit being painted red with the blood of a Briscoe was pretty awesome. I can't remember the last time the WWE or TNA had simply an image that was that powerful.

Honestly, I think the closest would be John Cena giving Edge the FU off the ladder in their TLC Match. Not Cena's biggest fan, but even I have to admit he looked like a badass when FU'd Edge off, and then just shook his head like "Damn, I'm sorry it had to come to that, dude."

It's good that ROH is keeping the visuals alive.

[ron the dial]

And I had been getting such good seats, too :(

Seriously, Chicago is such a great city to be near when it comes to ROH.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I really hate Generico's corner brainbuster... I mean I despise it. To me, it sums up everything that is wrong with indy wrestling... It's just TOO dangerous. You can see it at the end of the short video below.... Although the second to last move is just as stupidly dangerous.

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[What Would Kevin Do?]

Also, Kevin Steen is awesome.

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[Mr. Nerfect]

I really hate Generico's corner brainbuster... I mean I despise it. To me, it sums up everything that is wrong with indy wrestling... It's just TOO dangerous. You can see it at the end of the short video below.... Although the second to last move is just as stupidly dangerous.

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That Double Pump Handle Orange Crush move is fucking sweet.

I'm not flat-out disagreeing with you, but I think a lot of the risk in the "Brainbustahhh!" would be assessed, wouldn't it? It seems the move hits on the shoulder, and while I'm sure it's not exactly comfortable to take, I don't think it's the absolute worst move on the indy scene.

But then again, is the move really necessary to facilitate the risk? Generico doesn't need it, and could better use it on the occasion that he and a wrestler really want to spice up their match, and use it as an "OMG!" spot. It'd be great for storytelling.

[Mr. Nerfect]

For example, I'd be much more worried about taking the last three moves in Kevin Steen's video.

Seriously, though, they video made me love Kevin Steen. I had no idea the guy could do a 450 Splash (not my measuring stick of how awesome a guy is, by the way, I'm personally not a fan of the move), and the Go Home Driver and Slingshot Flatliner made me mark out something fierce.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Also, he's not really an "indy" wrestler, as he just signed with NOAH, but he's close enough.. Taiji Ishimori... Seriously, this kid is only going to get better, and the guy is just amazingly fun to watch.

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[What Would Kevin Do?]

The problem with Generico's brainbuster is it seems random.. I've seen him drop people on the back of their neck, and on the top of their head with it.

I've never seen Steen do an avalanche package piledrive outside of that video. I'm not sure how common it is... But yeah, Steen is amazingly agile for his size. It's sort of scary.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The problem with Generico's brainbuster is it seems random.. I've seen him drop people on the back of their neck, and on the top of their head with it.

I've never seen Steen do an avalanche package piledrive outside of that video. I'm not sure how common it is... But yeah, Steen is amazingly agile for his size. It's sort of scary.

Some of the fright that comes with Generico might be his size. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who could control a move like that. I get the impression he is deceptively strong, though. Kind of like RVD, only he looks much skinnier.

And Steen is very agile for his size, apparently. I've always accepted him as "good," but he's never been on my list of guys to really watch. Although, to be fair, he's not really "big-big." He's "indy-big." It seems he's billed as 5'10, 220lbs. If he were in the WWE, that's cruiserweight size.

Again, if I were rebuilding the WWE's cruiserweight division, I'd pick up Steen and have him toss some fellow cruisers around. The "Go Home Driver" seems like a safe enough WWE finish, as is his moonsault. Put him over as the asshole jock of the CW division, who loves tossing around every other cruiser other than El Generico. He'd also have the style to grow out the division and move onto the US Title.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Is Taiji Ishimori the guy who has recently been teaming with KENTA? I think they might even be GHC Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Champions. I haven't checked up with the promotion for a while. If so, it's a really good start for him, as he's working with one of the higher profile juniors.

[Fignuts]

Ishimori is one of my favorite people to play as in firepro

[thecc]

Yo, Weapon X. How far away from Joliet are you? IWA-MS is having their 500th show there on March first. I'd definitely check it out if it's close to you.

[ron the dial]

That's not too far away. Maybe a little further than Chicago Ridge. I'll look into that. I'm finally getting back to ROH on the 26th.

[Mr. Pierre]

Just went to the show last night and it was awesome :D

Opener was a lot of fun w/Delirious, El Generico & Quackenbush vs. YRR, which is a stable from FIP which includes the FIP Tag Champs, but they are new to me.

We also got some great Hero antics. He comes out with a leg brace and a neck brace. But, still wrestles anyway to defend his Inter-Gender Tag Team Championships (which Sweeney gave to Del Ray and Hero).

Aries/Claudio had a very good match, as did Danielson/Stevens for the FIP Title. Alot of other good stuff happened as well. And the show ended in an insane brawl that I will never forget. Really fun show :y:

[.44 Magdalene]

I'd only hate Generico's brainbuster if I were wrestling him.


But the bloodthirsty spectator in me absolutely fucking loves the ever loving crap out of that move.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Yeah, Taiji is the guy teaming with KENTA right now... They're not the GHC junior tag champs though..... Masato Yoshino and Naruki Doi from DG are.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, Taiji is the guy teaming with KENTA right now... They're not the GHC junior tag champs though..... Masato Yoshino and Naruki Doi from DG are.

Ah, that's right. I remember reading that they won the belts, just forgotten. Dragon Gate is a really fun promotion, and I believe they were running an angle where a lot of DG teams were challenging for the belts, so it's not a bad thing one finally won them, in my opinion.

Also, I must mark out for the Inter-Gender Tag Team Championship. Are the belts ROH sanctioned, or kind of like Larry Sweeney's ICW-ICWA Texarkana Television Championship, or whatever it's called?

[The Lone Wolf]

I was at the ROH this past saturday in edison and I think Mr. Pierre covered it for the most part but I would also like to make mention of the Brent Albright vs. Kevin Steen match. It was a well built match without the high flying, dare devil spots of most indy matches. It was a classic big man vs. big man match as they billed it as a battle of the bulls.