Kalyx triaD
02-10-2008, 10:36 AM
Gamers sound off on woman's divisive column.
By Jenn Frank, 02/08/2008
"Are you a child-man?" (http://www.1up.com/do/my1Up?publicUserId=5450684)
That's the question Joshua Earles-Bennett asked 1UP this week, alluding to both Kay Hymowitz's recent piece, The Child-Man, as well as to NPR's corresponding interview with Hymowitz.
Today, many young adults either delay or completely reject marriage, parenthood, home-ownership, and financial security, often pointing to such responsibilities as, at worst, outmoded ideals. Recently, social scientists have attempted to put a name to this shift in priorities, calling it Emerging Adulthood or the Odyssey Years. But from Hymowitz's perspective, it is a 'prolonged adolescence,' and it is a problem.
Specifically, she says, the blame falls on the entertainment industry and, more particularly, the male consumers who buy into it. She terms those young adults in their mid-twenties and -thirties as "child-men," delaying adulthood in lieu of leisure activities like video games, television, and movies.
In an article dating February 1, Hymowitz writes, "Not so long ago, the average mid-twentysomething had achieved most of adulthood's milestones -- high school degree, financial independence, marriage and children. These days, he lingers -- happily -- in a new hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. It's time to state what is now obvious to legions of frustrated young women: The limbo doesn't bring out the best in young men." Writer Kate Muir shares Hymowitz's outrage, and follows with an article of her own, even naming Hymowitz's column as inspiration, on February 4; video games especially bear the brunt of Muir's ire.
In response to Hymowitz's column, one person writes:
I agree with bits and pieces. The classic men stereotypes were supposed to get married, have children, and provide for their families. With the changing views on women, men my age are trying to find their new role in society. That much I agree upon, but when she goes into a rant about good men of old, she misses an important clue towards this 'prolonged adolescence'. Along with that responsibility as caretaker came a great deal of power and respect. Seeing how these roles of responsibility don't carry as much value to modern society, there is less attraction to fulfill that position. Like most modern women, men now have a freedom of choice to their place in society. She ignores the dozen other roles that men will decide to choose. Asking for a revival of the traditional man is like asking for the return of traditional values.
He concludes -- presumably in jest? -- "If worse comes to worst, blame feminism." Craig Metcalf replies:
There's more than rational analysis going on here; there's also quite a bit hostility toward men that borders on bitterness. Having spent my share of time in academia, I can definitely attest there are some intelligent women in their mid-30s who are indeed frustrated that there aren't more men interested in & making the commitment to children and family that they'd like to see in a potential partner. While lifespans are indeed increasing, the age that women can bear children is not. Guys can afford to screw around until their 30s or even early 40s, and still have plenty of time to refocus, regroup, and live up to the financial and biological obligations required by fatherhood.
Following this exchange, several gaming enthusiasts write in to explain that it isn't "just one thing or the other", each lending himself as an example of being young, male, married, a father, and financially stable. Still others write more colorfully: "**** societal norms. This whole article is based on the preconception that to be mature, one needs to get a good job and marry; **** all that bull****."
Has the ideal for adulthood changed? Larry Madill writes:
This is what Fight Club put its finger on a long time ago: A nation of alienated, aimless men doing things they don't want, and keeping jobs they don't like, for what? Oh, that's right, so that they can get married, and have kids, and perpetuate that cycle of middle class debt and consumerism. Why do I need to do that when I don't want to?
Cathryn G. writes:
Is it just me, or does all the feminist crap being spouted in both of these feel completely trite? These two are basically sitting here blaming men for the fact that millions of 30-something women are sitting alone, waiting for the fun-having non-committers to call and, eventually, knock them up. Is it just me? Or does that put feminism back a good 40 years or so?
And Gully Foyle points out that delaying marriage and children is by no means a decision made by men "in a vacuum":
Shouldn't the fact that women are choosing to focus on getting advanced college degrees and then, upon graduating, to focus on career, also be mentioned here? The author makes it sound as though women's desires for marriage and children are unchanged -- and that the reason marriages and children are happening later in life is simply because men would much rather hang out with their friends and play video games than be responsible fathers and husbands. Women aren't focusing on careers and putting off getting married and having kids simply because men are more interested in lad magazines and bar-hopping than in paying attention to them.
There are a number of already-published books that are essentially indictments of Hymowitz and Muir's thinking. Steven Johnson's Everything Bad is Good for You rigorously defends the intellectual integrity of supposedly 'lowbrow' media, while Rejuvenile, by Christopher Noxon, more directly links 'lowbrow' media with rapidly shifting societal 'age norms.'
But strip away the matters of gender roles, age norms, and even the very tenuous definition of adulthood itself, and you'll likely find that what Kay Hymowitz insists on calling 'leisure' is anything but. This is an age where it requires a lot of hard work to make so little money; her column arouses the deepest ire because, as any grown gamer knows, it takes a lot of hard work to support what Hymowitz interprets as a childish, offensively leisurely life. Gaming enthusiasts, male and female, are quick to point out that they do work at careers or in academia, that they do support loved ones, and still make time to game. And they're quick to point this out precisely because people like Hymowitz and Muir willfully -- even somewhat enviously -- devalue and belittle not the hobby itself, but instead the people who participate.
----
I'm 25, got a job, an apartment (with a bud), and I pay my damn bills. I also just so happen to play alot games. The Hell with a chick who can't accept a 2 hour session of Soul Calibur cause that don't fit her perception of a man. I have alot more to say on the subject, but what does TPWW think?
By Jenn Frank, 02/08/2008
"Are you a child-man?" (http://www.1up.com/do/my1Up?publicUserId=5450684)
That's the question Joshua Earles-Bennett asked 1UP this week, alluding to both Kay Hymowitz's recent piece, The Child-Man, as well as to NPR's corresponding interview with Hymowitz.
Today, many young adults either delay or completely reject marriage, parenthood, home-ownership, and financial security, often pointing to such responsibilities as, at worst, outmoded ideals. Recently, social scientists have attempted to put a name to this shift in priorities, calling it Emerging Adulthood or the Odyssey Years. But from Hymowitz's perspective, it is a 'prolonged adolescence,' and it is a problem.
Specifically, she says, the blame falls on the entertainment industry and, more particularly, the male consumers who buy into it. She terms those young adults in their mid-twenties and -thirties as "child-men," delaying adulthood in lieu of leisure activities like video games, television, and movies.
In an article dating February 1, Hymowitz writes, "Not so long ago, the average mid-twentysomething had achieved most of adulthood's milestones -- high school degree, financial independence, marriage and children. These days, he lingers -- happily -- in a new hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. It's time to state what is now obvious to legions of frustrated young women: The limbo doesn't bring out the best in young men." Writer Kate Muir shares Hymowitz's outrage, and follows with an article of her own, even naming Hymowitz's column as inspiration, on February 4; video games especially bear the brunt of Muir's ire.
In response to Hymowitz's column, one person writes:
I agree with bits and pieces. The classic men stereotypes were supposed to get married, have children, and provide for their families. With the changing views on women, men my age are trying to find their new role in society. That much I agree upon, but when she goes into a rant about good men of old, she misses an important clue towards this 'prolonged adolescence'. Along with that responsibility as caretaker came a great deal of power and respect. Seeing how these roles of responsibility don't carry as much value to modern society, there is less attraction to fulfill that position. Like most modern women, men now have a freedom of choice to their place in society. She ignores the dozen other roles that men will decide to choose. Asking for a revival of the traditional man is like asking for the return of traditional values.
He concludes -- presumably in jest? -- "If worse comes to worst, blame feminism." Craig Metcalf replies:
There's more than rational analysis going on here; there's also quite a bit hostility toward men that borders on bitterness. Having spent my share of time in academia, I can definitely attest there are some intelligent women in their mid-30s who are indeed frustrated that there aren't more men interested in & making the commitment to children and family that they'd like to see in a potential partner. While lifespans are indeed increasing, the age that women can bear children is not. Guys can afford to screw around until their 30s or even early 40s, and still have plenty of time to refocus, regroup, and live up to the financial and biological obligations required by fatherhood.
Following this exchange, several gaming enthusiasts write in to explain that it isn't "just one thing or the other", each lending himself as an example of being young, male, married, a father, and financially stable. Still others write more colorfully: "**** societal norms. This whole article is based on the preconception that to be mature, one needs to get a good job and marry; **** all that bull****."
Has the ideal for adulthood changed? Larry Madill writes:
This is what Fight Club put its finger on a long time ago: A nation of alienated, aimless men doing things they don't want, and keeping jobs they don't like, for what? Oh, that's right, so that they can get married, and have kids, and perpetuate that cycle of middle class debt and consumerism. Why do I need to do that when I don't want to?
Cathryn G. writes:
Is it just me, or does all the feminist crap being spouted in both of these feel completely trite? These two are basically sitting here blaming men for the fact that millions of 30-something women are sitting alone, waiting for the fun-having non-committers to call and, eventually, knock them up. Is it just me? Or does that put feminism back a good 40 years or so?
And Gully Foyle points out that delaying marriage and children is by no means a decision made by men "in a vacuum":
Shouldn't the fact that women are choosing to focus on getting advanced college degrees and then, upon graduating, to focus on career, also be mentioned here? The author makes it sound as though women's desires for marriage and children are unchanged -- and that the reason marriages and children are happening later in life is simply because men would much rather hang out with their friends and play video games than be responsible fathers and husbands. Women aren't focusing on careers and putting off getting married and having kids simply because men are more interested in lad magazines and bar-hopping than in paying attention to them.
There are a number of already-published books that are essentially indictments of Hymowitz and Muir's thinking. Steven Johnson's Everything Bad is Good for You rigorously defends the intellectual integrity of supposedly 'lowbrow' media, while Rejuvenile, by Christopher Noxon, more directly links 'lowbrow' media with rapidly shifting societal 'age norms.'
But strip away the matters of gender roles, age norms, and even the very tenuous definition of adulthood itself, and you'll likely find that what Kay Hymowitz insists on calling 'leisure' is anything but. This is an age where it requires a lot of hard work to make so little money; her column arouses the deepest ire because, as any grown gamer knows, it takes a lot of hard work to support what Hymowitz interprets as a childish, offensively leisurely life. Gaming enthusiasts, male and female, are quick to point out that they do work at careers or in academia, that they do support loved ones, and still make time to game. And they're quick to point this out precisely because people like Hymowitz and Muir willfully -- even somewhat enviously -- devalue and belittle not the hobby itself, but instead the people who participate.
----
I'm 25, got a job, an apartment (with a bud), and I pay my damn bills. I also just so happen to play alot games. The Hell with a chick who can't accept a 2 hour session of Soul Calibur cause that don't fit her perception of a man. I have alot more to say on the subject, but what does TPWW think?