Is Chris Jericho a main event/potential main event player?

[Anybody Thrilla]

I don't know what he's doing exactly, but he has been extremely entertaining to me over the past month and a half or so. I'm not shocked by this revelation, seeing as to how I was the biggest Jericho mark ever during his WCW Cruiserweight title run and to a bit of a lesser extent in his first WWE run, but when he first returned, I found him to be pretty annoying and I hated the feud with JBL.

Now though...his matches are consistently solid and he's been gold on the mic. I find myself marking out for him pretty hard right now.

I know there have been numerous topics on Jericho before, and for that I apologize, but after watching the King of the Ring tournament....what do you think are Jericho's chances of actually capturing a top tier title and having a run with it that isn't a complete joke? At times, they book him to look very strong (dethroning Jeff Hardy albeit out of necessity, winning clean over MVP, etc.) but I still don't really feel like he's a main event player like they touted him as upon his return.

I can't tell if they're booking him awkwardly or if they're booking him fine, but I'm just used to him getting shafted in the past.

I know these thoughts are jumbled, but I'm going totally off the cuff here.

Thoughts?

[BigDaddyCool]

Move him to Smackdown, and he can easily be a mainevent player there. Plus it would help shake up the usual Edge/Bats/Taker shuffle.

[BigDaddyCool]

On Raw, no matter how good he is, he is just a jobber to the stars.

[St. Jimmy]

In my heart, yes. In reality? no.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Whatever they do, I just hope they follow through with this Michaels/Jericho mini-beef that's going on. I'd love to see another program between the two of them, it's been too long.

[NoRoolz]

I think he is considered a 'Main-Eventer' but like... just, if that makes sense. Like he'll be involved in things like Elimination Chambers and maybe get the occasional title shot (more than likely at a P.P.V like the rumble) and have feuds with the top stars, but will never actually be World Champion.

Kinda like Kane I guess, but slightly higher up the card I'd say.

Things could change though, he could easily be credible as World Champion.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Chris Masters was in an Elimination Chamber. I don't know why I felt I should point that out, but there it is.

[NoRoolz]

Chris Masters was in an Elimination Chamber. I don't know why I felt I should point that out, but there it is.

As was Hardcore Holly :-\

I know what you mean, but I do think Jericho is classed as a 'main-eventer' but of all the main-eventers, he's probably nearest to Midcard hell, bar Kane.

[Anybody Thrilla]

December to Dismember never happened. Ever. I don't even know where I came up with that silly name for a show that never happened. Silly me.

[Anybody Thrilla]

You know, I'm really getting the feeling that the whole SAVE_US.222 thing was intended for usage with John Cena. Had that been the case and Jericho came in to face a STILL champion Cena, it would have been SOOOOOOOOOO much better. Even if they would have tried to play Jericho as a heel, he would've been cheered through the roof. A title win right then and there would have felt a lot more believeable, but he seems to have been knocked down a few pegs after his title shot.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Jericho has found his groove again, and has been a major highlight of RAW. I'd consider him a main event player, as he is one of your bigger names in the WWE. He gets the final slot on the RAW logo in the intro to that show, and he headlines live events.

I mean, these are all little things, but I don't think you can limit Jericho to "mid-card." I think he is "unfocused main event." When they want or need Jericho, they can move him into any World Title scene flawlessly.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Please bless us with one of your imagined scenarios of this 'flawless transition', Noid.

[NoRoolz]

Yes, please do.

I enjoy 'Noid's imagined scenarios, even if they do often involve Val Venis headlining WrestleMania :p

[BigDaddyCool]

Jericho has found his groove again, and has been a major highlight of RAW. I'd consider him a main event player, as he is one of your bigger names in the WWE. He gets the final slot on the RAW logo in the intro to that show, and he headlines live events.

I mean, these are all little things, but I don't think you can limit Jericho to "mid-card." I think he is "unfocused main event." When they want or need Jericho, they can move him into any World Title scene flawlessly.

1) Jericho's groove has nothing to do with being in the mainevent. Plenty of non-mainevent wrestlers are firmly in their groove. Proximity to a groove and maineventing are independent of one another.

2) Your personal opinion of Jericho doesn't mean anything. *insert Val Venis joke*

3) Jericho is a big name, but not like Cena, Orton, JBL, HHH, Micheals. Hell JBL has been getting more high profile matches than Jericho has since his return.

4) Final slot on the raw openning segement means nothing.

5) You didn't mention this, but he is IC champion. That is for the middle card, and he got that because they had to get it off Hardy.

6) He is tacked on to the HBM v Batista match for Backlash, and add nothing to the match other than a shit stirrer. The fued was gold before he was inserted in it. He seems so unnessicary there. I personally feel like they wanted him to do something but not enough to give him his own match and he is a fucking champion.

All these things added up don't make him an unfocus maineventer. They make him a fallback upper midcarder.

(Please note, I'm not bashing Jericho, he is doing fine right now, i guess. I'm bashing WWE's use of him.)

[Anybody Thrilla]

BDC's not wrong, really.

[Stickman]

I think he's poorly booked. He can put on a good-great match anytime he wants and is gold on the mic if he tries. But it seems like he's just dialing it in cuz the writers have nothing for him.

[Anybody Thrilla]

One point of clarification though, BDC...when you say 'big name', do you mean to a casual fan or in the WWE's totally predetermined hierarchy? I'd contend that Jericho is a bigger "name" than JBL, and probably even Orton.

[BigDaddyCool]

I just asked my girlfriend, who is more of a casual viewer, she knows more than most casual viewers cause I never stop talking about wrestling she comes here time to time. Anyhow, back on point, she doesn't think Jericho is a maineventer or could be.

Point of clarifaction - BDC knows one opinion of a semi-smark casual fan that has to listen to BDC's own anti-jericho remarks 24/7 is not a good sample of the average common casual fan.

[BigDaddyCool]

One point of clarification though, BDC...when you say 'big name', do you mean to a casual fan or in the WWE's totally predetermined hierarchy? I'd contend that Jericho is a bigger "name" than JBL, and probably even Orton.

Both. I see your point about Jericho could be a bigger name to casual fans that Jiggletits, but not Orton.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Please bless us with one of your imagined scenarios of this 'flawless transition', Noid.

Just one way I came up with off the top of my head:

At Backlash, Chris Jericho is scheduled to be the Special Guest Referee in the match between Shawn Michaels and Batista. The have a match that I think will be about as good as Batista's battles with The Undertaker, and as they reach a climax, Jericho hits both guys with a steel chair out of nowhere. He then covers Shawn Michaels, and slaps the mat three times, and declares himself the winner. Jericho then hits Michaels and Batista with the steel chair a few more times, and then hits Batista with a chair-assisted Codebreaker, and then puts Michaels in the Walls of Jericho, as HBK lies in a pool of his own blood.

William Regal has inserted himself into the main event's WWE Title Match, because he is King of the Ring and General Manager, so he can do whatever he wants. Chris Jericho, however, makes an appeal to Vince McMahon, and gets added to the match seeing as he is Intercontinental Champion, is yet to compete tonight, and to make the match even.

The first guy eliminated, is JBL, when Jericho kicks Layfield's arm off a Clothesline from Hell attempt, and then hits a Codebreaker for three. The other guys all brawl, with Jericho taking more of a back seat. Chris Jericho and Triple H end up legal, and then Shawn Michaels runs in and attacks Jericho, and the referee calls for the bell and disqualifies Triple H, who is obviously upset (further fuel for that rumoured Triple H heel turn). Jericho and Michaels are at each other's throats, with HBK being escorted to the back, and Jericho trying to get his hands on him, with security surrounding them and protecting both men as they take it to the back. Chris Jericho is eliminated via countout.

Randy Orton, John Cena and William Regal are left in the match. Regal has got Cena in the Regal Stretch, the move that put away three guys during the King of the Ring Tournament, but then Orton gives Regal a Concussion Kick out of nowhere, and Cena crawls into a pin on the King of the Ring. John Cena and Randy Orton do battle, and Cena has Orton up for an FU, but when Cena goes to slam Orton, Randy turns it into an assisted RKO, and he gets the pin and retains the WWE Championship.

On RAW, Orton is doing another of his little "I've beaten everybody promos," when William Regal comes out and says that as RAW General Manager, he realises that he needs to be unbiased and fair to everyone, and he congratulates Orton on retaining the WWE Title, beating five other men conclusively. Triple H's music then hits, and he comes out and asks Regal if he truly meant conclusively. The Game is furious that he got eliminated because Shawn Michaels couldn't keep his hands off Jericho. Shawn Michaels joins the party, and apologises for costing Triple H his opportunity at the WWE Title. Chris Jericho them struts out, and complains that he also got screwed out of the WWE Title, because he wasn't pinned and didn't submit either.

William Regal books Triple H vs. Chris Jericho for that night, with the winner being Randy Orton's next opponent for the WWE Championship. If Shawn Michaels gets involved tonight, then he will be suspended, and miss out on the title shot he could potentially earn when he settles his score with Batista.

Triple H and Jericho work the match you'd expect of them, with Batista coming out on the stage, with his head bandaged up, watching the match. The referee is knocked down, and Jericho hits Triple H with a steel chair. Batista looks like he might head to the ring, but he doesn't, out of respect for Triple H. Jericho is staring at Batista, though, so his vision is near the titantron, and he notices Triple H sneaking up from behind with a sledgehammer, and he manages to evade, disarm Triple H, and hit a Codebreaker, a Lionsault and then put Triple H in the Walls of Jericho for the reluctant submission. Chris Jericho is the #1 Contender for the WWE Championship. Triple H is none too happy with Dave Batista.

The story here is that Triple H, Batista, Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho all have issues with each other, but they also have the WWE Champion on their mind. Batista and Shawn Michaels clash at Judgment Day, this time with Triple H as the Special Guest Referee. They assume that all will be fine with Triple H as the ref, and that is true...until Triple H admonishes Batista long enough for HBK to hit the Sweet Chin Music and get the pin...and then he tells Shawn Michaels to "suck it" after winning, and gives him a Pedigree.

In the main event, Chris Jericho and Randy Orton and wrestling for the WWE Championship and the WWE Intercontinental Championship. Jericho hits a Codebreaker, followed by a Lionsault, followed by the Walls of Jericho to win the WWE Championship and retain the WWE Intercontinental Championship.

RAW sees Chris Jericho celebrate, and Randy Orton wants his rematch. You get them facing each other on RAW, which Jericho wins after he catches a Concussion Kick and turns it into the Walls of Jericho. After the match, William Regal comes out to award Jericho a new belt, which he did promise the winner of Jericho/Orton. He then attacks Jericho, though, and beats down the dual-champion. Regal then says he lied about not abusing his power.

This builds ever-so-steadily to Chris Jericho vs. William Regal vs. Randy Orton vs. Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Batista in an Elimination Chamber. This one with an actual story, and not just thrown together for the purposes of having a big match. In case you were wondering where John Cena is, I sent him to SmackDown!, to freshen things up.

Another idea is to just have Chris Jericho face CM Punk in a Title vs. Title Shot Match, defeat Punk, and then use the MITB briefcase at an opportune time, and get someone to tap to the Walls. There is also the idea of this Jericho vs. HBK vs. Batista idea staying between them, and becoming a #1 Contender's feud, which Jericho wins.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I just say he may be a bigger name than Orton since Jericho was a pseudo-big name during wrestling's boom period and more people would be likely to remember him at least, if that makes sense.

[Anybody Thrilla]

There are no DQs or count outs in elimination matches, are there? Still though, that's kinda decent if not a bit jumbled.

[Mr. Nerfect]

There are no DQs or count outs in elimination matches, are there? Still though, that's kinda decent if not a bit jumbled.

It depends. I can imagine the WWE doing it "No Countout, No DQ," but I don't think they have set rules for it. I mean, they still sometimes make Triple Threat Matches "Extreme Rules," or something equally stupid, where it is impossibly to implement and effective disqualification strategy.

[NoRoolz]

I'd say that anyone who's watched since/before 2002 would consider Jericho a bigger name than Orton to be fair.

But BDC does make a lot of very good points, especially the point about Y2J being I.C champion. I know a lot of posters here believe that main-eventers should go after IC/US title when they're not in a world title feud but to most casual fans, and myself as well, view the IC title as a midcard-upper midcard title.

[BigDaddyCool]

I just say he may be a bigger name than Orton since Jericho was a pseudo-big name during wrestling's boom period and more people would be likely to remember him at least, if that makes sense.

Interesting point. But here is my anwer: :foc:

No, I kid, my real answer is during the boom period, Jericho was king of the WCW undercard, which means nothing. He came over to WWF had a nice battle of words with the Rock only to go directly to fueding with Road Dog and a leaving Ken Shamrock. Jericho never made it up the ladder during the boom period. He was champion after the downward spiral of WCW's death happened. He was never a big name during the boom. His biggest accomplishments we victory over guys looking to leave, then he got lazy, quit, came back and is king of the undercard again.

Orton on the other hand has been in some of the biggest angle for a while. He is champion and has be going over some of the biggest and most popular names of this era including HHH, Cena, HBK, Jericho, and Jeffy Hardy.

So from a historic stand point, if you want to look at Jericho selectively he might just edge out Orton as a bigger name. If you look at the here and now, Orton is by far a bigger name than Jericho. If they would put Orton in singles matches again Cena, and HHH and other faces, people would pay to see Orton lose. But it is hard to tell right now because it has been cluster fucks lately.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I just read on the main page that Jericho may have some backstage heat. I wonder what that's about.

[Skull316]

I'm honestly surprised that Jericho is being booked as low as he is. Granted his return was a little slow-going, his title match with Orton at Armageddon booked him to look more credible than 90% of the title contenders the company has. He had Orton on the verge of tapping, if not for JBL's interference. The sensible direction would have been a title shot after his score was settled with JBL, but they didn't take that route for some reason.

I definitely agree though in the last month or so Jericho has really picked it up and seems to be doing a pretty damn entertaining job. I think part of that is he's touching on his heel side (especially with how he's been badmouthing HBK), and he always made a really believable heel. I'd love if during this HBK/Batista run they brought up HBK/Jericho's history, not to mention the unforgettable cheap shot after their match at WM19.

All in all though, I think he's proved he still has the ability to entertain, and better than most of the roster at that. I'd love to see Jericho in a singles program with Triple H or even maybe a longer term thing with Orton than a one shot deal. He can hang with main eventers, I just honestly think the booking isnt allowing him to do such.

The other thing that's been mentioned is him main eventing Smackdown. I could see this as a possibility, and especially with Big Show returning, Raw seems to be overloaded with main eventers. I think if they split up their main event talent better, they could turn Smackdown back into a credible show that people are just as excited about as Raw, especially being that Smackdown's writing often seems much better thought out than Raw's.

[KingofOldSchool]

JERICHO IS THE GREATEST BECAUSE HE IS THE LAST WRESTLER ON THE RAW INTRO1!!!

[BigDaddyCool]

Just one way I came up with off the top of my head:

At Backlash, Chris Jericho is scheduled to be the Special Guest Referee in the match between Shawn Michaels and Batista. The have a match that I think will be about as good as Batista's battles with The Undertaker, and as they reach a climax, Jericho hits both guys with a steel chair out of nowhere. He then covers Shawn Michaels, and slaps the mat three times, and declares himself the winner. Jericho then hits Michaels and Batista with the steel chair a few more times, and then hits Batista with a chair-assisted Codebreaker, and then puts Michaels in the Walls of Jericho, as HBK lies in a pool of his own blood.

So, the grudge match between HBK and Batista is ended in a no contest and nothing is solved. So far off to a retarded start.

William Regal has inserted himself into the main event's WWE Title Match, because he is King of the Ring and General Manager, so he can do whatever he wants. Chris Jericho, however, makes an appeal to Vince McMahon, and gets added to the match seeing as he is Intercontinental Champion, is yet to compete tonight, and to make the match even.

We just got Vince of the air, why bring him in? Also...why make it into a 5 way match only to make it into a 6 man? I know this went from a singles to a 3 way to a 4 way all in one night, but that is retarded.


The first guy eliminated, is JBL, when Jericho kicks Layfield's arm off a Clothesline from Hell attempt, and then hits a Codebreaker for three. The other guys all brawl, with Jericho taking more of a back seat. Chris Jericho and Triple H end up legal, and then Shawn Michaels runs in and attacks Jericho, and the referee calls for the bell and disqualifies Triple H, who is obviously upset (further fuel for that rumoured Triple H heel turn). Jericho and Michaels are at each other's throats, with HBK being escorted to the back, and Jericho trying to get his hands on him, with security surrounding them and protecting both men as they take it to the back. Chris Jericho is eliminated via countout.

Wait, now you made it into a tag match? I was under the impression that it was every man for themselves, not tags and stupid crap like that. Getting past that, how is Jericho getting dqed because Shawn Micheals was getting revenge from earlier in the night turn HHH heel? Also, you are rushing this. Micheals should be getting his revenge on Raw at the very earlier, not the same night at Backlash. Also, why would Jericho chase after Shawn Micheals and get dqed from a title match he moments ago just bitched and moaned about getting into. I'm assuming Jericho has been turned heel during all of this as well. Because Bats and HBK are for the most part face right now. None of this makes any sence, you are fucking retarded.

Randy Orton, John Cena and William Regal are left in the match. Regal has got Cena in the Regal Stretch, the move that put away three guys during the King of the Ring Tournament, but then Orton gives Regal a Concussion Kick out of nowhere, and Cena crawls into a pin on the King of the Ring. John Cena and Randy Orton do battle, and Cena has Orton up for an FU, but when Cena goes to slam Orton, Randy turns it into an assisted RKO, and he gets the pin and retains the WWE Championship.

Still don't understand why Regal needs to be in this already clusterfuck of a match.

On RAW, Orton is doing another of his little "I've beaten everybody promos," when William Regal comes out and says that as RAW General Manager, he realises that he needs to be unbiased and fair to everyone, and he congratulates Orton on retaining the WWE Title, beating five other men conclusively. Triple H's music then hits, and he comes out and asks Regal if he truly meant conclusively. The Game is furious that he got eliminated because Shawn Michaels couldn't keep his hands off Jericho. Shawn Michaels joins the party, and apologises for costing Triple H his opportunity at the WWE Title. Chris Jericho them struts out, and complains that he also got screwed out of the WWE Title, because he wasn't pinned and didn't submit either.

HBK and Batista should be looking for Jericho, and Jericho has no right coming out because he inserted himself in at the last minute and then ran off. He is being very heelish right now. Why would he walk into a ring with HBK who has beef with him, and HHH who has never like him standing in the middle of the ring? That is not a smart thing to do, therefore not a heel thing to do.

William Regal books Triple H vs. Chris Jericho for that night, with the winner being Randy Orton's next opponent for the WWE Championship. If Shawn Michaels gets involved tonight, then he will be suspended, and miss out on the title shot he could potentially earn when he settles his score with Batista.

At this point, HHH hasn't had his singles match with Orton. Why even inject Jericho in this? You are forcing Jericho instead of building Jericho. This is why people hate Cena, and hated Batista because the were put there instead of earning their way to the top.

Triple H and Jericho work the match you'd expect of them, with Batista coming out on the stage, with his head bandaged up, watching the match. The referee is knocked down, and Jericho hits Triple H with a steel chair. Batista looks like he might head to the ring, but he doesn't, out of respect for Triple H. Jericho is staring at Batista, though, so his vision is near the titantron, and he notices Triple H sneaking up from behind with a sledgehammer, and he manages to evade, disarm Triple H, and hit a Codebreaker, a Lionsault and then put Triple H in the Walls of Jericho for the reluctant submission. Chris Jericho is the #1 Contender for the WWE Championship. Triple H is none too happy with Dave Batista.

HHH would never let Jericho be booked over him, tainted win or not. Also, i don't recall big Dave being barred from the ring or anything like that. He should have attacked Jericho and helped HHH get the win. HHH wouldn't care, he was about to smash Jericho with a sledge hammer anyhow.

The story here is that Triple H, Batista, Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho all have issues with each other, but they also have the WWE Champion on their mind. Batista and Shawn Michaels clash at Judgment Day, this time with Triple H as the Special Guest Referee. They assume that all will be fine with Triple H as the ref, and that is true...until Triple H admonishes Batista long enough for HBK to hit the Sweet Chin Music and get the pin...and then he tells Shawn Michaels to "suck it" after winning, and gives him a Pedigree.

ghey.

In the main event, Chris Jericho and Randy Orton and wrestling for the WWE Championship and the WWE Intercontinental Championship. Jericho hits a Codebreaker, followed by a Lionsault, followed by the Walls of Jericho to win the WWE Championship and retain the WWE Intercontinental Championship.

Why would a heel Jericho put his title on the line when he already has the title shot he wanted? That isn't a smart thing to do, therefore not a heel thing to do. Now if Jericho is suppose to be a face through all of this, it is retarded. Also, come to think of it, why are we have a heel v heel match, those never draw.

RAW sees Chris Jericho celebrate, and Randy Orton wants his rematch. You get them facing each other on RAW, which Jericho wins after he catches a Concussion Kick and turns it into the Walls of Jericho. After the match, William Regal comes out to award Jericho a new belt, which he did promise the winner of Jericho/Orton. He then attacks Jericho, though, and beats down the dual-champion. Regal then says he lied about not abusing his power.

This builds ever-so-steadily to Chris Jericho vs. William Regal vs. Randy Orton vs. Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Batista in an Elimination Chamber. This one with an actual story, and not just thrown together for the purposes of having a big match. In case you were wondering where John Cena is, I sent him to SmackDown!, to freshen things up.

No, this is all crap.

Another idea is to just have Chris Jericho face CM Punk in a Title vs. Title Shot Match, defeat Punk, and then use the MITB briefcase at an opportune time, and get someone to tap to the Walls. There is also the idea of this Jericho vs. HBK vs. Batista idea staying between them, and becoming a #1 Contender's feud, which Jericho wins.

No, this again just forces Jericho into the title picture and makes him a defacto maineventer, not a real one. There is no build here. You just forced him into a series of matches to become champion with after the fact building of fueds. You ignored all the obvious fueds that could get Jericho into a mainevent position. This is the first time I've ever read one of your storyline ideas in earnest. Glad I never have before. This is also the last time.

[Damian Rey]

I think a move to SmackDown!'s main event picture would be immense for Jericho. There's a lot more oppurtunity for him over there, with fresh fueds and a high potential world title run. I can honestly see Jericho chasing or being chased for the WHT going to Mania 25.

[Loose Cannon]

simple answer: Jericho will always be a main event player from here on out

[BigDaddyCool]

To me, there is a lot of clutter with Jericho. He has been buried, pushed to the side, and been put in to many slapped together feuds for too long to be considered a maineventer. He needs to get in some focused story lines built to advance him up the ladder. Turning him heel or moving him to smackdown would be nice, but it would be pointless if he just jacking around.

[Fox]

Jericho was doomed from the start if you ask me. They brought him in with all this hoopla and bullshit, and really haven't done much of anything with him. Even when he was "hot off his return" and feuding with Orton, he was hardly a spotlight player on the RAW's leading up to Armaggeddon 2007 (and the match wasn't even the main event), and in the end, his loss and failure to resume his quest for the WWE Title just made him look like a bitch.

He tried to "SAVE US.222" from Randy Orton as WWE Champion (his words, the night of his return), failed due to interference, and then just gave up? Some fucking savior, seeing as Orton is STILL the WWE Champion.

Maybe they had bigger plans for him that got thrown out the window when they discovered Cena was ready to return at the Rumble. All I know is that wrestling Jiggletits, losing in MITB, and then refereeing a REAL main event-level match at Backlash isn't exactly stellar, for anyone.

It was funny when Rock, at the HOF Ceremony, said that he couldn't believe he heard Jericho mention beating The Rock and Steve Austin in the same night on RAW ("you're still talking about that, aren't you?"). And the truth is that Vengeance 2001 will most likely go down as Jericho's biggest night and highest point in his career. It's unfortunate that most people regard that title run as a joke.

[BigDaddyCool]

He tried to "SAVE US.222" from Randy Orton as WWE Champion (his words, the night of his return), failed due to interference, and then just gave up? Some fucking savior, seeing as Orton is STILL the WWE Champion.

I think I've written a 20 page thesis on TPWW about why the words Jericho said that night doomed him.

[Kane Knight]

Have they don't anything with the SAVE US gimmick since then?

I'm just thinking that the gimmick is rather a failure, and I haven't noticed anything other than a slightly different Titantron. I'm kind of of the opinion that Jericho's new gimmick should probably go the way of "I still remember."

Not that Y2J should go away, just the gimmick itself. Drop it. Bury it. Nobody gave a shit.

Similarly, I think the IWC should stop deluding themselves with the notion of a meaningful Jericho ME any time in the near future. He was likely tapped because of the lack of star power, and then forgotten the minute it looked like Cena was coming back. He's a placeholder. This reflects in no way on how good he is, how liked he is, or anything of the sort, it''s merely a statement of his role in WWE.

[Anybody Thrilla]

It would be easier to accept him as a placeholder if they would have never made him the first Undispusted Champion when there were plenty of other candidates for the role at the time. Beating Steve Austin and The Rock in one night was kind of a big deal, ya know?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Interesting point. But here is my anwer: :foc:

No, I kid, my real answer is during the boom period, Jericho was king of the WCW undercard, which means nothing. He came over to WWF had a nice battle of words with the Rock only to go directly to fueding with Road Dog and a leaving Ken Shamrock. Jericho never made it up the ladder during the boom period. He was champion after the downward spiral of WCW's death happened. He was never a big name during the boom. His biggest accomplishments we victory over guys looking to leave, then he got lazy, quit, came back and is king of the undercard again.

Orton on the other hand has been in some of the biggest angle for a while. He is champion and has be going over some of the biggest and most popular names of this era including HHH, Cena, HBK, Jericho, and Jeffy Hardy.

So from a historic stand point, if you want to look at Jericho selectively he might just edge out Orton as a bigger name. If you look at the here and now, Orton is by far a bigger name than Jericho. If they would put Orton in singles matches again Cena, and HHH and other faces, people would pay to see Orton lose. But it is hard to tell right now because it has been cluster fucks lately.

I was never a fan of him back when I started watching, but even uninitiated into the WWE's workings as I was, I accepted Jericho as a bigger star than you're giving him credit for. He came out and got MASSIVE fan reactions. Like, they were just behind The Rock and Stone Cold. I used to think "I don't get why people like him so much."

Never really became a "mark" for Jericho until 2005, when it became so obvious how shitty everyone else was, and how much I wanted to see Jericho just shoot on Cena.

Orton is presented as the biggest name in wrestling at the moment. He is the WWE Champion. But if you take that away from Orton, I think Jericho is the bigger star of the two, simply because of his history in the business. Orton has been around for six years now, but he still feels sort of new. He's still very young.

Jericho just feels like more of a constant. I can see Orton being fired for sniffing cocaine and shitting in bags any day now. That's a bit of a stretch, but you know what I mean.

[Kane Knight]

It would be easier to accept him as a placeholder if they would have never made him the first Undispusted Champion when there were plenty of other candidates for the role at the time. Beating Steve Austin and The Rock in one night was kind of a big deal, ya know?

Ignoring the fact that the "Undisputed Championship" was then treated as second place to so much, that title prestige means pretty much nothing, and that a couple of big wins doesn't change much in the world of wrestling, even if they're big names in one night...

...This has fuck all to what he's been doing for the last couple of years. It's not even a "What have you done with me lately?" Sort of thing, it's a "spot the trend" thing.

[BigDaddyCool]

I was never a fan of him back when I started watching, but even uninitiated into the WWE's workings as I was, I accepted Jericho as a bigger star than you're giving him credit for. He came out and got MASSIVE fan reactions. Like, they were just behind The Rock and Stone Cold. I used to think "I don't get why people like him so much."

Never really became a "mark" for Jericho until 2005, when it became so obvious how shitty everyone else was, and how much I wanted to see Jericho just shoot on Cena.

Orton is presented as the biggest name in wrestling at the moment. He is the WWE Champion. But if you take that away from Orton, I think Jericho is the bigger star of the two, simply because of his history in the business. Orton has been around for six years now, but he still feels sort of new. He's still very young.

Jericho just feels like more of a constant. I can see Orton being fired for sniffing cocaine and shitting in bags any day now. That's a bit of a stretch, but you know what I mean.

Back then Disco Inferno was getting massive pops.

[Mr. Nerfect]

So, the grudge match between HBK and Batista is ended in a no contest and nothing is solved. So far off to a retarded start.


Shawn Michaels and Batista are going to be feuding way past Backlash. A clean fall, especially with Jericho in there serving as referee, is not going to do anything other than set one guy at a disadvantage. A win by Michaels, in particular, would turn the fans further against Big Dave.

We just got Vince of the air, why bring him in? Also...why make it into a 5 way match only to make it into a 6 man? I know this went from a singles to a 3 way to a 4 way all in one night, but that is retarded.

We need to get Jericho in there. Sure, we can just have Jericho pop up on the graphic. Vince is a tool for the story, he can be replaced with Shane, Linda, the Board of Directors, or anyone with power. You don't even need to show Vince. Him returning to TV is not an issue here.

Adding two men at once would be a lot to suddenly process. You have to explain how someone gets in there. Plus, this started off as Randy Orton vs. JBL, and then added Triple H, then added Cena, as you said. You're adding one guy at a time. Jericho actually gets into the match because Regal opens the door. He opens the door, because with his return to active competition and his newfound power, he has the audacity to alter the main event like that. The main event is already not as advertised, why not make it even?

Wait, now you made it into a tag match? I was under the impression that it was every man for themselves, not tags and stupid crap like that. Getting past that, how is Jericho getting dqed because Shawn Micheals was getting revenge from earlier in the night turn HHH heel? Also, you are rushing this. Micheals should be getting his revenge on Raw at the very earlier, not the same night at Backlash. Also, why would Jericho chase after Shawn Micheals and get dqed from a title match he moments ago just bitched and moaned about getting into. I'm assuming Jericho has been turned heel during all of this as well. Because Bats and HBK are for the most part face right now. None of this makes any sence, you are fucking retarded.

Yeah, I made it a Six-Way Elimination Match where two guys are legal. That way you can avoid the horrible cliches of guys spilling out to the ring conveniently.

Triple H does not turn heel by this very act, moron. Also, Jericho doesn't get DQ'd. Michaels attacks Jericho, and thus Jericho's chances of winning the WWE Title are hindered by outside interference. The rules state that is worthy of a disqualification. Seeing as Triple H and Shawn Michaels are buddies, the referee is further justified in his call of disqualifying the legal man against Jericho, Triple H, for this. Of course, this does not sit well with Triple H, who is none too happy with HBK's inability to stay out of his match. This is part of a build.

I agree that I am rushing this. I originally had written in my post that I was getting Jericho there as quickly as possible. I am definitely rushing it. However, I think it would give the fans watching the event a little satisfaction to see Michaels get revenge from a little earlier. Well, try to get revenge. Jericho doesn't get counted out, on purpose. He is brawling with HBK, and the referee is counting to keep integrity of the contest. Security and other referees are all over Michaels and Jericho, which keeps Jericho from making it back to the ring. It's a little messy, yes, but it is a way to get Jericho out of the match.

I was going to have Jericho make it back to the ring, and then play injured on the outside, or something, and actually take the title. There are a million ways you can take these things. I just listed one. Oh, and Jericho is the Jericho he is now. A face with heel tendencies.


Still don't understand why Regal needs to be in this already clusterfuck of a match.

Regal is in the match because he is the RAW General Manager, he has the confidence boost and testosterone flowing from dominating the King of the Ring Tournament. He wants to be WWE Champion.

HBK and Batista should be looking for Jericho, and Jericho has no right coming out because he inserted himself in at the last minute and then ran off. He is being very heelish right now. Why would he walk into a ring with HBK who has beef with him, and HHH who has never like him standing in the middle of the ring? That is not a smart thing to do, therefore not a heel thing to do.

I was going to give Jericho more of a face clarity, but it doesn't really make sense given his current character. It's an interesting thing they've got him doing. He's neither a face nor a heel. When he wrestles, he often plays a sympathetic guy, and he is yet to do much too evil on the microphone, except play antagonist to babyfaces. He's in an organic place at the moment, where he is so cocky that he thinks he can get away with whatever he wants.

At this point, HHH hasn't had his singles match with Orton. Why even inject Jericho in this? You are forcing Jericho instead of building Jericho. This is why people hate Cena, and hated Batista because the were put there instead of earning their way to the top.

Jericho is in this because he holds a (highly controversial) technical win over Shawn Michaels and Batista. He's in this because he did not take a pin or submit (which in WWE language means undefeated). He has a technical claim to the title, too, as does Triple H. That Triple H is not getting it is more fuel to the fire of his character.

People hate Cena and Batista because they are bland babyfaces. Batista was never forced on the fans. I'd also argue that he isn't hated anywhere but in smark crowds, anyway. He is pushed as Superman, true, but Jericho isn't being pushed as Superman. This whole scenario is just one of the ways to get Jericho back into the main event scene, there's no use complaining about Jericho being added in there.

HHH would never let Jericho be booked over him, tainted win or not. Also, i don't recall big Dave being barred from the ring or anything like that. He should have attacked Jericho and helped HHH get the win. HHH wouldn't care, he was about to smash Jericho with a sledge hammer anyhow.

Batista is actually an intelligent character. He is when he is switched on, anyway. He knows Triple H doesn't want anyone in his business. By appearing on the stage, Batista was letting Jericho know he is still going to get him, and was providing a distraction. Jericho managed to use his environment to his advantage, and take the match. This way Batista, who didn't want to get physically involved like Michaels, still manages to cost Triple H the win (in a way), which fuels Triple H's decision to start burning bridges.

Why would a heel Jericho put his title on the line when he already has the title shot he wanted? That isn't a smart thing to do, therefore not a heel thing to do. Now if Jericho is suppose to be a face through all of this, it is retarded. Also, come to think of it, why are we have a heel v heel match, those never draw.

Jericho isn't choosing to put his title on the line. William Regal, who is still RAW General Manager, is making a big match for the hell of it. Both titles on the line boost the interest that goes with the match, seeing as Jericho is in his tweener role, and Orton is a heel. This isn't really heel vs. heel, but there was apparently a match once between Pat Patterson & Gerald Brisco and The Mean Street Posse that was actually a bizarrely highly rated TV segment. Heel vs. heel matches can have a place when there is the right story behind them (for example, Kurt Angle vs. Triple H from 2000/2001).


No, this is all crap.

No, you are crap. Actually, I respect your opinion, but you don't agree with anything I say even when our points match perfectly, so you carry very little weight with me.

I literally free wrote that, without planning the angle. It was an "as I go" exercise, but I feel that everything is justified, even if things get a bit messy. I think that faces are too goody these days, and that heels are often too cartoony, and that there should be more of a blurred line, but even I would like more clarity with it. However, it stays in touch with all their current characters.

No, this again just forces Jericho into the title picture and makes him a defacto maineventer, not a real one. There is no build here. You just forced him into a series of matches to become champion with after the fact building of fueds. You ignored all the obvious fueds that could get Jericho into a mainevent position. This is the first time I've ever read one of your storyline ideas in earnest. Glad I never have before. This is also the last time.

A defacto main eventer? You mean like Randy Orton was forced? Jericho has been a main eventer before, even if you don't concede that he has. Jericho can be welcomed very easily back, and it's not like we're building Nunzio for a World Title run here.

As I said, the build was rushed, and it was freestyled, but there is build there. Every move is, largely, justified. You just don't like it because you're Republican. The King of the Ring and William Regal open the floodgates. I didn't highlight that part of the story, but I thought most people would be able to pick it up. Regal adds himself into a main event, which gives Jericho a hole he is able to squeeze through. From there, Jericho is not defeated in the main event, he makes a case to the GM, and he gets a title shot. He wins it, and from there he wins the belt. It's short, but it's a quick way to get the WWE Title on Jericho. If you want me to build a year-long chase for Jericho, we can do that, too.

Also, BDC, I know you've got that thick skin, so it probably hasn't sunk in yet, but I really do not care what you think about anything. I personally am offended that you'd end up the audience for something I'd written. Demographics and all that.

But thank you for actually taking the time to reply. I'm going to positive rep you for that. Also because you didn't sound like an idiot.

[Kane Knight]

LOL. Okay, that was at least a K3.

[Mr. Nerfect]

1) Jericho's groove has nothing to do with being in the mainevent. Plenty of non-mainevent wrestlers are firmly in their groove. Proximity to a groove and maineventing are independent of one another.

Oh, I wasn't arguing that his groove did have any direct relation to his main event status. I was just agreeing with an opinion voiced earlier in the thread, about Jericho being fun to watch in the ring, and cutting entertaining promos, something people were claiming he had lost the ability to do upon his return (I think those criticisms were way overdone, though).

2) Your personal opinion of Jericho doesn't mean anything. *insert Val Venis joke*

Pot, meet kettle. It is black.

3) Jericho is a big name, but not like Cena, Orton, JBL, HHH, Micheals. Hell JBL has been getting more high profile matches than Jericho has since his return.

I disagree. I think you are selling Jericho very short. The man was something like the fourth most popular wrestler in the WWE during the Attitude era. We're no longer there, but I bet if older fans came back, they'd recognise Jericho and think "I really, really used to like that guy." Then they might see Cena and think "wrestling's gay" and turn it off

You also need to specify by what you mean by "big name." If we're talking drawing power, I think Triple H might be the closest thing to a name there. If we're talking about the way the WWE pushes them, then that's moot, because we're talking about if Jericho can get there, not where he is at the moment. If you're talking about special attraction status to your average fan, again, I think you are selling Jericho and his history short.

4) Final slot on the raw openning segement means nothing.

Not anything overly major, no. But the opening slot is usually reserved for someone the WWE does not mind being associated with their product. ECW ended with the ECW Champion, and SmackDown! with the World Heavyweight Champion until recently, when I believe it became Taker's spot. I'm not saying that the final slot is a massive thing, but the WWE deliberately inserted Jericho there, and haven't felt the need to replace him with John Cena, Randy Orton, Triple H or fucking Vince McMahon yet. It's a small sign that the WWE is at least somewhat proud of showing off Jericho.

5) You didn't mention this, but he is IC champion. That is for the middle card, and he got that because they had to get it off Hardy.

Main eventers have held the IC Title before. Granted, not for a while. Jericho winning the IC Title is about as telling that the WWE sees him as a mid-carder as the final slot in the opening video shows they see him as a main eventer. It's just a little hint. And as you said, Jericho partially won the IC Title out of necessity. That works on the pro-main eventer stance. I also feel that the WWE wanted to put something on Jericho to make him look relevant and like he can win championships. Just a little title win to refocus Jericho.

6) He is tacked on to the HBM v Batista match for Backlash, and add nothing to the match other than a shit stirrer. The fued was gold before he was inserted in it. He seems so unnessicary there. I personally feel like they wanted him to do something but not enough to give him his own match and he is a fucking champion.

The tri-branded PPVs makes it frustratingly hard to fit everyone on PPV. More championships should be defended on PPV. Jericho being added into the HBK/Batista issue did come out of nowhere, but I think being a Special Guest Referee in a main event program makes a guy look main event himself. Jericho has been presented as a contemporary through it.


All these things added up don't make him an unfocus maineventer. They make him a fallback upper midcarder.

(Please note, I'm not bashing Jericho, he is doing fine right now, i guess. I'm bashing WWE's use of him.)

I disagree with that, to a degree. I don't think the WWE's plan is to use him as their top guy, but Jericho is presented as a main event talent by the WWE. He is a former World Champion, he is involved with main eventers, and he gets to be in matches with them, and occasionally defeat them. He just happens to work with mid-carders a lot, too.

I think we are essentially arguing the same thing, we just have a disagreement on the term. I think being presented like you're good enough to main event makes a main eventer (coupled with literally occasionally main eventing, at the very least); I think you are taking more of a "you have to consistently be up there" approach?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the average fan would see Jericho as someone better than pretty much everyone on the WWE roster except maybe John Cena, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Batista and The Undertaker. Some might put Kane and Randy Orton ahead, too. I think Jericho definitely breaks into that group, though.

[Kane Knight]

I think the average fan would see Jericho as someone better than pretty much everyone on the WWE roster except maybe John Cena, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Batista and The Undertaker. Some might put Kane and Randy Orton ahead, too. I think Jericho definitely breaks into that group, though.

That kind of speculation is baseless and most likely wrong. "I really really want it to be true" does not make baseless speculation any more grounded.

On an amusing note, I got more hits for Umaga than Jericho on Google.

[The Optimist]

Orton got slightly more hits, and JBL got much less.

Matt Hardy almost got as many as Jericho.

[Kane Knight]

Jeff gets a shitload more hits.

I'd do more searches, but I'm drawing a blank on who to search.

[Kane Knight]

(This isn't really scientific, mind....)

[The Optimist]

Big Show gets almost three times as many.

It's sort of a tiny ballpark. After JBL, Big Show, Matt and Jeff, and Umaga, other psuedo high profile wrestlers are either pointless to even ask (Triple H/Cena) or have name concerns that affect the outcome too much. (MVP/Kane)

[Kane Knight]

I didn't do Big Show, Kane and a couple of others specifically because the results would be kind of slanted by certain factors. Big Show, for example, is a common phrase or phrase segment. Kane is fairly common, especially since you have Bob Kane, Carol Kane, and Knight Knight. :shifty: So I tried for people I could get specific hits off of.

[dablackguy]

Its kinda ironic when you think about it. You watch ECW, which has something like 17 or so active male wrestlers, then you tune in to smackdown which is a decent B show, but isn't really deep (as evidenced by taker vs bats every week)

And then you look at RAW

Guys that are merely there to be (I'll use the term used) jobbers to the stars. Guys like Jericho, Carlito, Hardy pre suspension, Umaga. (despite me hating him) Guys that could be main eventers on either other show. Of course, WWE doesn't have any idea how to distribute their talent..

I'm off topic here. Anyways, I think he absolutely needs to move at the draft. The Save.us angle was a failure based on the fact that they A) bogged him down with garbage feuds after the feuds with Orton and B) didn't continue the feud with Orton, kinda like they forgot about it.... :shifty:

Given who and what is on RAW- the 'golden boy' of the company, the politicking son in law who apparently doesnt like Jericho and the incumbent champion who is once agin going to get crushed by said son in law. Its best he move to smackdown. Not like they'll be using him on RAW in the main event given how 'crowded' it is at the top

[BigDaddyCool]

Noid, you are trying way to hard to put Jericho into where you think he should be while completely ignoring where he is. Not only that you are making a completely unwatchable product in the process. You have ppv that plow through a month's worth of storylines just to get Jericho into a cluster fuck match. You just don't get it. Jericho can not be a maineventer this year on Raw. If he was given a proper push, especially on ECW or Smackdown he could. But just isn't on the level you think he is.

[Kane Knight]

Guys that could be main eventers on either other show. Of course, WWE doesn't have any idea how to distribute their talent..

Well, they need guys who will make their shitty main eventers look good.

[Kane Knight]

And you know what?

Putting over main eventers isn't necessarily a bad thing. Jericho gets a paycheck, the smarks get to pretend the guy they like is more important than he is, the main event scene is slightly less abysmal than it otherwise would be, and so on.