Since when did they suck?

[FourFifty]

This thead goes out to two people. John Cena and Hulk Hogan.

So I was watching the Raw XV dvd and there's a couple things I don't get...
Now I know the IWC has pretty much always been clinging onto Christian, saying RVD is the man, Kurt Angle is one of the best, etc etc. Now my memory is fuzzy (thank you God for allowing post concussion syndrome to fuck me over) but when did Cena go from a solid main event face to a solid main event fucking tweener? You can put this man in the ring with Hitler and I'd cheer for Hitler because it's not Cena. Cena can go one on one with a man who eats kittens for a living and I'll cheer for the guy who eats kittens. When did this mixed reaction start?

Same deal goes for Hulk "I felt Brooke's Ass" Hogan. One day Hulkamania is running wild! Next day he went form the biggest baby face to the most hated heel. After that he has 384 last matches and a return with a mask. After all of this I'm sure at least half of us will say he gets way too much credit. When did he go from Mega Heel to Mega Face to "fuck this match, I'm gonna play Mega man"?

[Fox]

Cena's began after he beat JBL for the WWE Title at Wrestlemania 21. They, or he, got rid of everything that the fans loved about him and turned him into a poop and gay joke referencing, vanilla white, non-rapping/insulting babyface, who was having sub-par matches with JBL, and representing the company as the WWE Champion. His move to RAW and his defeat of favorites Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and Christian, only made the fans hate him even more.

I believe that his match with Kurt Angle at Unforgiven 2005 would be the turning point for Cena.

As for Hogan, he should have left after Rock vs. Hogan at WrestleMania X8. That should have been his send off. Ever since then he's just been a whore.

At least as Hollywood Hogan in WCW he was entertaining, but it was because it was different, and he was flanked by some of the coolest men in wrestling (Hall, Nash, Steiner, Bagwell, Bischoff). Even his feud with Kidman during the New Blood angle wasn't too bad.

I think Hogan truly lost it after the debut of "Hogan Knows Best." Any segue into reality television is a bad sign.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Cena's began after he beat JBL for the WWE Title at Wrestlemania 21. They, or he, got rid of everything that the fans loved about him and turned him into a poop and gay joke referencing, vanilla white, non-rapping/insulting babyface, who was having sub-par matches with JBL, and representing the company as the WWE Champion. His move to RAW and his defeat of favorites Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and Christian, only made the fans hate him even more.

I believe that his match with Kurt Angle at Unforgiven 2005 would be the turning point for Cena.

As for Hogan, he should have left after Rock vs. Hogan at WrestleMania X8. That should have been his send off. Ever since then he's just been a whore.

At least as Hollywood Hogan in WCW he was entertaining, but it was because it was different, and he was flanked by some of the coolest men in wrestling (Hall, Nash, Steiner, Bagwell, Bischoff). Even his feud with Kidman during the New Blood angle wasn't too bad.

I think Hogan truly lost it after the debut of "Hogan Knows Best." Any segue into reality television is a bad sign.

I would go even earlier to the point where the fans started to turn on Cena. At Summerslam in 2005, there were mixed "Let's go Cena!/Let's go Jericho!" chants. While they were about neck-and-neck, giving that Cena was meant to be the babyface, and Jericho was playing a super heel, this reaction was definitely not good.

The real turning point for Cena, was not his ring work, I don't believe. I think what really irked people was his promo style at the time. "This is REAL recognising REAL!" was a really bad idea. Especially when he was in the ring with someone who got to the top of the industry the hard way, was a much better in-ring talent, was better on the mic, and given his training and past, could probably have legitimately kicked the shit out of Cena.

That is when people began to notice Cena's mechanical offence. His shoulder blocks barely tapped the guy, his punches were thrown pretty bad, and he only had "5 moves" now. I honestly think the "real" stuff drew attention to how "fake" Cena was.

Oh, and "If you want some...come get some!" is just a horrible catchphrase. I mean, the idea is to invent your own, isn't it? I really don't think this would have helped Cena's case. Then the little things Cena did really irked people.

I personally started to dislike Cena during his Best of Five Series with Booker T over the United States Championship. If I recall, the series started when Sharmell helped Booker T pin John Cena in a controversial way, or both men pinned each other, and the belt was declared vacant. Booker T seemed upset Sharmell was helping him cheat, but it turned out they were in on it. Or something. Maybe that was Booker T's next heel run on SmackDown!. Anyway, the belt left Cena and became vacant, and he and Booker T had matches that I can only describe as being crappy.

Knowing that Booker T is a great wrestler, I could only really blame it on Cena, and his ring skills being a little overrated. I knew that perhaps they just didn't mesh up, but Cena's face run had been boring me, so it was more fun to blame it almost entirely on Cena. What made it worse, is that Cena won the series, and become a two-time US Champion, if I recall. So Cena and Booker have this feud with Booker fresh as a heel, and it is pretty much designed for him to win it. Cena's reign is vacated, and the belt is held up...and Cena wins it back? I don't like it when vacant belts go back to the guy that held it.

Then Cena moved into a feud with Carlito, and I was glad that Carlito won the US Title in his debut. He was a strong character at this point (a really smart guy who was deceptively dangerous and cunning in the ring), and he bumped really well for Cena, and it was the most entertained I had been by Cena. Then Carlito got injured, and instead of maybe having the belt sit on Carlito while Jesus feuded with Cena, or having the belt forfeited, and not having Carlito actually lose it, they had Cena pretty much squash a one-armed Carlito Caribbean Cool. Then Cena turned the belt into that mockery JBL destroyed, and dominated another newcomer, Jesus, who was solid in the ring and quite a talker, and could have used some kind of impressive showing for longetivity purposes, and made him and Carlito look like absolute jokes.

It was then that I got off the "Cena is the future of the business bandwagon" and felt he was far too forced. He was having bland matches with established veterans who have been known to have great matches, and his push was cutting off the momentum of other acts. His character butchered the US Title. It was just depressing television.

His build to the WWE Championship was rushed, too. Why not just have the US Champion challenge the WWE Champion at WrestleMania 21? Instead they have a tournament Cena wins, and then have him drop the US Title to Orlando Jordan. That would have been OK, if the WWE had special plans for the US Title at WrestleMania. They didn't. I think I remember Booker T actually being a face for the event, as I think he won a pre-Mania Battle Royal eliminating Chris Masters last. I think I was of the opinion that Orlando Jordan should have defended against Booker T, and gotten an establishing victory.

The whole booking for SmackDown! at this time was pretty fucked up, but John Cena's performances themselves couldn't really save things, and people were acting like he was so hot he could make anything watchable. I was watching, and I was not impressed.

[CSL]

Where do you find the time to write all this?

[The Mackem]

Copy and paste

[The Optimist]

I believe that his match with Kurt Angle at Unforgiven 2005 would be the turning point for Cena.This. There was so many stupid things about that angle. Kurt was spitting on soldier memorials and hanging out with Daivari.

As for Hogan, I'm sure you'll get alot of "Fingerpoke Of Doom" or "Starrcade 97" answers. Honestly, I wasn't paying much attention to wrestling during the NWO years, but if there was a time were it seemed the image of him switched from the face of the buisness to a symbol for the problems with it I would guess it was around then or a right after.

[Dave Youell]

I'm sorry,

But when was the last time you heard a live crowd turn on Hogan? He's a made man, if he ever shows up on TV he's going to get cheers, he's no where in the same league of Cena hate.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Hogan, but I'll admit to being in a crowd when he was working the audience and it's near impossible not to get caught up in it.

Cena on the other hand is a different story, the beginning of the end was when he won the title, since then he had been pushed far too strongly. But he's not the first person this has happened to, it happened to HBK as well in the mid 90's. Sometimes fans just don't want to be force fed.

[Dorkchop]

This. There was so many stupid things about that angle. Kurt was spitting on soldier memorials and hanging out with Daivari.

WWE tried everything they could to get Angle booed and Cena cheered, and NOTHING worked. The cheers for Angle kept getting louder and louder. Here's his awesome promo:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ydZDLLtp8Y&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ydZDLLtp8Y&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[Mr. Nerfect]

Where do you find the time to write all this?

After work and before dinner?

[Kane Knight]

I noticed the mixed reactions were coming primarily at the hands of Kurt Angle (aka GOD) and Chris Jericho, who's supposed to be one of the best guys in the business (According to IWC cocksucking) and got cheers often enough when he was a heel.

Neither of these spell the downfall of Cena to me, they spell awesome wrestlers who often had trouble getting complete heat, and a company stupid enough to decide to push them as heels when they were hot anyway. And that's not exactly a short list, either.

[KingofOldSchool]

Cena, since early 2005.

Hogan, ALWAYS

[Indifferent Clox]

Not a big fan of the black people, lol.

Tapping out Jesus omg.

[Rammsteinmad]

I lol'd a lot at that promo, but it's sad because what he was saying was actually true. "I hope America loses the war to Iraq". I lol'd so hard at how casually and randomly he said that.

[Vastardikai]

WWE should have known during the Angle-Eugene feud when the fans were booing Eugene (a retard.) that it would get ugly for an Angle-Cena feud.

[The Optimist]

Well, there's a point where an underdog winning stops being a nice story and begins to be stupid as hell. A retard beating an Olympic champion is far far far past that point. Anyone who routed for Eugene during that angle was probably either a child, or retarded themselves.

[BigDaddyCool]

Hogan has always sucked, he just has a nack for making live crowds forget it for a second. He was getting boos and no reactions before nWo. He forced his way into grouping up with two hot talents in Nash and Hall and got back to the top. Then if figured out how to make nosaliga work for him. Everyone knows what he is going, but most let him because it will be for a match here and there. And he is good for a short program.

[Slow]

I personally always hated the rapper gimmick, cause rappers are all tossers. I REALLY started to hate the bastard when they gave him a submission win over Benoit, with the incredibly shite STFU.


...then there's always the fact he has one of those faces you just wanna get drive a tractor plow over.

[FourFifty]

I was talking to my brother about this. Why do we hate Super Cena and Hogan so much? Because this current market doesn't want another Hulk Hogan right now. I think we want more of a see-saw theme with main event feuds. I'd love to see Cena do the job, cleanly. No dirty moves, no cheap shots, no run-ins, etc etc. It's possible to do the job and still look good, but somehow I think the writers and the bookers aren't sure how to make Super Cena lose cleanly and look good/

[Kane Knight]

Superman feuds don't have the kind of drama we want.

[#1-norm-fan]

Just started thinking. I think when Vince's erection for a guy becomes bigger than the fans erection for said guy, that's when things get ugly.

It's like, one day...

Fans: "Cena is awesome! Put this man in the main event!"
Vince: "Hmm... you guys may have something... let's go ahead and give him the US Title. See how that goes."

And eventually...

Fans: Really loving this US Title reign. Cena as world champ would be pretty sweet. Could be the main event face we've been looking for since The Rock's peak.

Vince: YES!!!! JOHN CENA IS MONEY!!!! ALL TIME WILL BE FOCUSED ON JOHN CENA!!!! WE WILL LET HIM BEAT EVERY HEEL IN THE COMPANY IN ONE MONTH FEUDS AND THEN HE WILL BEAT EVERY HEEL IN THE COMPANY ALL AT THE SAME TIME AND HE WILL CRUSH ANYONE ELSE WHO YOU FANS MAY SEE FIT TO CHEER BECAUSE YOU WILL ONLY CHEER ONE MAN! AND HIS NAME IS SUPER CENA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fans: :| ...

[The Show Off]

Summer Slam 2005 against Chris Jericho more than half the crowd cheered for Jericho over Cena, that's when is began.