So if Foley wasn't supposed to fall through the top of the cell

[Supreme Olajuwon]

how were they supposed to get down?

[NeanderCarl]

Foley only climbed back up because Taker was still up there and Foley was concussed and raging with adrenaline?

Well, either that, or both bumps were planned and that's why the section of the cage roof was rigged to fall open on hinges.

[Rob]

It wasn't planned.

[Loose Cannon]

yea, Foley and Taker never planned on even going up. It was pretty much ad-libed

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Climbing down?

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I mean come on, people have actually climbed down in matches before. It's like asking "If JFK didn't plan to be shot, how else was he going to end his car ride?"

[NeanderCarl]

yea, Foley and Taker never planned on even going up. It was pretty much ad-libed

Which is why Terry Funk has continually taken credit for coming up with the idea for the bump the day before, and telling Foley about it? Or how about the fact that Foley has recounted several times how the Undertaker tried to convince him not to go through with it before the match?

There's never been any real doubt that the bump was planned. It is the mysterious second bump which is often disputed ('was it planned or an accident?). I say it was set up, but then I don't know.

[Kane Knight]

Which is why Terry Funk has continually taken credit for coming up with the idea for the bump the day before, and telling Foley about it?

I invented the internet. See how easy that is?

While I'm at it, I am responsible for the Attitude Era, I created ECW but gave credit to Paul Heyman (Mostly because he let me use his basement) I put the needle in Benoit's arm, and I actually bought Nick Hogan's beer.

Now, I'd address the rest, but the notion that Foley has said Taker tried to dissuade him is a new one to me.

[Theo Dious]

I invented the internet. See how easy that is?

While I'm at it, I am responsible for the Attitude Era, I created ECW but gave credit to Paul Heyman (Mostly because he let me use his basement) I put the needle in Benoit's arm, and I actually bought Nick Hogan's beer.

Now, I'd address the rest, but the notion that Foley has said Taker tried to dissuade him is a new one to me.

Yeah, well I screwed Bret. I win.

[NeanderCarl]

Foley admitted himself that it was Funk's idea in an interview with Power Slam in the UK which is a reputable magazine which doesn't embellish or kayfabe its material.

[NeanderCarl]

Now, I'd address the rest, but the notion that Foley has said Taker tried to dissuade him is a new one to me.

Pretty sure that was in his first book. I've definitely read Foley saying that a couple times, can't be 100% sure where exactly, but Have A Nice Day sounds about right.

[Fox]

The first one was planned, and Foley had talked about going up to the top with Taker to start it off before the PPV. It's all in his book.

The second fall wasn't planned. The cage actually did break away and Undertaker really did think that Foley was dead.

[Kane Knight]

If you murder your opponent, is it a win or a DQ?

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Climbing down?

If they were just going to climb down without having another bump planned, how would they have made it believable?

Not trying to be sarcastic here. I can't think of a scenario where they would both climb down without someone taking a bump and make it look like part of the match.

[Rob]

If you murder your opponent, is it a win or a DQ?



Depends. Like if you choke him to death but you break before 5, it's a win. If not, its a DQ.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

yea, Foley and Taker never planned on even going up. It was pretty much ad-libed

Wasn't Taker already half way down the cage when Foley was getting off the stretcher?

[Loose Cannon]

I swear I read somewhere or even heard Foley say he got the idea to start at the top when he came down the isle and Taker had no choice but to follow him up. Then when they were up there Foley told Taker to toss him. I think it's on that DVD. I'll have to rewatch now

[thedamndest]

If the cage had held after Taker had chokeslammed Foley, he could have climbed down and worked the crowd a bit, gone inside the cage and maybe tossed the steps into the ring or tossed some chairs in or even just paced around with his hands on his hips. Or maybe start to walk away like even he couldn't believe how ridiculous Mick Foley was while he climbed down then they meet back up in the ring.

[Kane Knight]

I swear I read somewhere or even heard Foley say he got the idea to start at the top when he came down the isle and Taker had no choice but to follow him up. Then when they were up there Foley told Taker to toss him. I think it's on that DVD. I'll have to rewatch now

He's said it a couple of times, and I think I have it on DVD myself. Though he did spend a lot of time concussed.

[RP]

Chris Benoit wasnt suppose to kill Daniel

[Loose Cannon]

ok, now that I think about it, I'm sure he said he talked to Terry Funk beforehand about starting on top. That's on the DVD. but I don't think he told Taker about it. And I'm sure he mentioned he wispered to Taker to throw him off when they were up there

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Chris Benoit wasnt suppose to kill Daniel

Yes he was. Hitler took credit for giving him the idea in "Mein Kampf"

[James Steele]

I think he would have gotten down from the top of the cell by climbing down.

[CSL]

I don't believe for a second that the second bump wasn't planned

[NeanderCarl]

Taker had a broken foot going into that match. Plus he's THE veteran of the WWE and I'd wager calls and lays out the majority of his matches, most likely ALL of them.

Foley - in 1998, or ever in fact - didn't have the clout to go over Taker's head and force the guy into that situation without clearing it with him first. How was he to even know if Taker could physically climb the cage with his broken foot?

[Loose Cannon]

I'm just saying what Foley said, that's all. I'll post it later when I get home

[VonErichLives]

i'm far from an expert on this stuff, but I recall Foley said the first was planned and claims the 2nd wasn't that the section of the cage "gave way" but there was also speculation he was lieing because his wife flipped out over the 2 bumps and wanted to assure her the 2nd one wasn't planned.

[jcmoorehead]

In Foleys first book doesn't he say how he had the idea on how to start the match and spoke to Taker about it and was told by him that he was insane but eventually went through with it anyway.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>I always laugh when I see Taker drop down from the cell into the ring after Foley's 2nd bump. You can just tell Taker is thinking for a second "FUCK why did I do that when I have a broken foot?"</font>

[NeanderCarl]

From my memory it went something like this (from various interviews and Foley's books):

Terry Funk and Foley were in the ring coming up with ideas for the match on the Saturday at the arena. Funk told Foley he had to come up with something huge to top the awesome HBK-Taker HIAC from the previous October. He then suggested starting the match on top of the cage, and (perhaps jokingly) suggested taking a bump off the top. Foley, I believe, shot it down but later started seriously considering it.

The next day he told the Taker, who refused to do it. With Foley nagging him, he must have eventually agreed to it.

Who really knows about the second bump, it does seem unneccesarily dangerous and uncontrollable, but also that panel gave way far too easily.

[CSL]

...but also that panel gave way far too easily.

Uh huh. Not to mention Foley practically deadweighting the 2nd worst looking chokeslam ever and the hinges on that specific part of the cell. The only part unplanned in that spot was Foley getting his teeth smashed in by the chair that followed him down

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Not disagreeing with you but earlier in the match the two were walking on the top of the cell and Taker's foot broke through part of the cage without any extra force. So I dunno.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

and comparing this bump to the bump with Triple H that was obviously planned with maximum safety in mind

[MCEazy]

Well if the second bump was planned, u'd think taker would've moved the chair outta the way first, too much of a risk to leave it on there knowing Foley was going 16 feet into the ring on top of it with such velocity, doesn't seem smart to me.

[Destor]

Foley says in his book and on one of his VHS's that the throw off the cage was planned as an attempt to top the HBK fall.

[Destor]

From my memory it went something like this (from various interviews and Foley's books):

Terry Funk and Foley were in the ring coming up with ideas for the match on the Saturday at the arena. Funk told Foley he had to come up with something huge to top the awesome HBK-Taker HIAC from the previous October. He then suggested starting the match on top of the cage, and (perhaps jokingly) suggested taking a bump off the top. Foley, I believe, shot it down but later started seriously considering it.

The next day he told the Taker, who refused to do it. With Foley nagging him, he must have eventually agreed to it.

Who really knows about the second bump, it does seem unneccesarily dangerous and uncontrollable, but also that panel gave way far too easily.
This

[Disturbed316]

Second bump wasn't planned. Foley has said this countless times.

[The Mackem]

It's obviously blurred.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Foley says in his book and on one of his VHS's that the throw off the cage was planned as an attempt to top the HBK fall.

I know the first bump was planned. I wasn't talking about that. My question deals solely with the chokeslam through the cell down to the ring and the alternative plan they may have had in mind.

[Destor]

Not planned. Dunno. wouldn't have nearly as cool whatever they did I'll assure you.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Not planned. Dunno. wouldn't have nearly as cool whatever they did I'll assure you.

Yeah exactly which is why I had the question in mind in the first place. What could they have possibly done to get down from the top of the cell that would've been exciting or believable? Just climbing down wouldn't work.

[Destor]

It would work, just have been boring. When Foley got thrown off they weren't supposed to go back up you have to assume. But with his brain being all fucked I really dont think he was plannig to far ahead. The rest is history...

[Supreme Olajuwon]

How much after the first bump through the Spanish announce table was planned? If bringing in the stretcher and having Foley get off the stretcher to prove his toughness was part of the plan, it would seem silly to not have the next step planned. Alright Mick get off the stretcher aaaaaand improvise!

[Destor]

The stretcher wasn't planned to my knowledge...

[Destor]

*wasn't

[Legend Killer]

To me this match created a disappointment for me in the HIAC matches to come. Both of Foley's bumps in this match gave me a want to buy PPVs when a HIAC match was to be broadcasted. However, no one would ever be as crazy as Foley. After each HIAC I would be upset becuase no one was thrown off or put through. The WWE reshaped my mindset though when Brock Lesnar wrestled Taker in the cell. They made me enjoy HIAC matches once again, though nobody took a hellacious bump.

[Destor]

Lesnar/Taker was sooooooooooooooooo good.

[Loose Cannon]

I swear to god I read or heard somehwere Foley wispered to Taker to throw him off when they were up there. grrr, I'm going to find this.

[NeanderCarl]

Also, this was the first match where Foley wore a shirt over his Mankind gear. Probably to hide the padding!

[CSL]

Why would he need padding? He knows how to fall!

[CSL]

Okay, so I dug out Foley's 1st book and checked the part where he talks about HIAC 98. When originally discussing it with Funker, he suggests starting on top of the cell and being thrown off and Foley responds with 'Yeah, then I could climb back up-and he could throw me off again'. It's in a joking way to start with but the Funk bit finishes with "after a while I got serious and said quietly to Terry 'I think I can do it'. Also, just the way he talks about it combined with the fact he doesn't once mention it wasn't planned (which I'm pretty sure he would if that was the case) confirms it for me

[Jeritron]

yea, Foley and Taker never planned on even going up. It was pretty much ad-libed


Foley and Taker agreed that to top the original hell in a cell match, a good way to start it would be on the top of the cage, and also with a huge spot. The start was planned with him throwing Foley off the top. It then would have wound up in the cell or whatever.

However, as we know that first fall was a lot further than they thought it would be, and he landed badly. After being knocked out, he impulsively went back up there to restart the match up on top where it was supposed to start.

As you could see early on, the roof of the cage wasn't supporting the weight of the two sizely men. The cell had never been traveled to the top of, so it wasn't engineered for that. They had no clue it would be so vulnerable. As you can see a few times they almost go through on their own weight and begin to use careful footing on the structural beams instead of the chainlink panels.

The chokeslam, which was pretty dumb of them (especially the conscious taker) knowing the weakness of the cell just from their own weight, naturally broke the cage material and he fell unexpectedly to the mat.

And in response to whoever said it was rigged with hinges, you are wrong. The future hell in a cells that used the same spot were hinged. This one was purely an accident, and as you can see the cage rips and doesnt do so very neatly.
It appears the cage was attached to the structure with twist ties, probably metal ones.

[CSL]

He wasn't knocked out from the first fall. His shoulder was hurting (dislocated) and he had pain in his kidney but he thought it went well. The second bump knocked him out (for the first time in his career) Also, he didn't land badly. He missed the monitors, which was his main concern and felt it went 'as well as it possiby could'

[NeanderCarl]

The cell had never been traveled to the top of, so it wasn't engineered for that.

Firstly, this was only the second Hell In A Cell match anyway. And secondly, Taker and HBK battled atop the cage during the first one, so you're wrong on that count.

[Jeritron]

I thought they only made it to the edge of it?

[James Steele]

I thought they only made it to the edge of it?

They tussled for a little bit, and the bump was off the edge. HBK tried to climb down, but Taker stepped on his hands and made him fall.

[Theo Dious]

Okay. This is a pair of screenshots I took from the Undertaker Tombstone DVD.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg81/darthteedious/hiac.jpg

The things I've circled in red seem to be plastic ties, and they seem to be what was holding the roof up.

[Jeritron]

Yea. It was a mistake. I don't think that thing was meant to hold two 300+ pounders on it, let alone one of them thrown onto it.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

This match is 15 years old. DAMN.

Still so many unanswered questions y'all.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Motivation for bumping this thread: http://deadspin.com/hey-its-15-years-and-a-day-since-mick-foley-got-thr-611685778

[Theo Dious]

This match is 15 years old. DAMN.

They grow up so fast.

[DAMN iNATOR]

This match is 15 years old. DAMN.

Still so many unanswered questions y'all.

http://lumenosity.co/resources/_wsb_640x288_Is+the+truth+out+there.jpg

[Eklipse]

I remember reading somewhere that the match was actually supposed to end with the first bump, and that's why 'Taker was climbing down the side of the cell. Foley didn't want to disappoint the fans, so he went back up to the top. It's been years since I read that though, so I could be mistaken.

[Savio]

The only part unplanned in that spot was Foley getting his teeth smashed in by the chair that followed him down
No that was planned too.

[Swiss Ultimate]

So is it going to be Mark Henry VS. Undertaker at Mania in a cell?

[The Condor]

Mick will be scheduled to be the guest ref but he will die due to poor health a few weeks before 'Mania.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Classic Mick. Always willing to put over the other guy.

[The Condor]

He sensed that Bearer's death was a boost this year, he's just a team player

[CSL]

Power Slam in the UK which is a reputable magazine

lol

[Disturbed316]

Second bump wasn't planned. Foley has said this countless times.

[Bad News Gertner]

The WWF ring at the time had much less give than it does today. I can't for the life of me think that the spot was planned. He's lucky he's still walking.

[#1-norm-fan]

If it was planned, Foley would be best served going to his grave saying that it wasn't. It just adds to the mystique of the match. Why ruin that?

[Bad News Gertner]

He got thrown off the top of a cage through an annouce table and then bounced off the ring later. Pretty much anything he could say wouldn't ruin it.

[Big Vic]

Such a hard bump:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/79775/chokeslam-through-cell-o.gif

[CSL]

<MARQUEE>DEFINITELY PLANNED</MARQUEE>

[Swiss Ultimate]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DjQTK_MpFXc?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QfFl_rAH4Ig?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway

[#1-norm-fan]

He got thrown off the top of a cage through an annouce table and then bounced off the ring later. Pretty much anything he could say wouldn't ruin it.

As far as adding to it though... I mean, the discussion of whether it was planned or not is what's got us talking about it right now. It definitely would add to the mystique if it were planned to never admit to it and keep people guessing.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Would it really though? Is someone's DVD purchase based on whether or not the second bump was planned?

[Savio]

No but my youtube views are

[#1-norm-fan]

It definitely adds to the mystique of it. I didn't say it would be a big plan to make more money off of it or anything. But like I said, we're having the discussion 15 years later about whether that bump was real or not.

[#1-norm-fan]

Okay, so I dug out Foley's 1st book and checked the part where he talks about HIAC 98. When originally discussing it with Funker, he suggests starting on top of the cell and being thrown off and Foley responds with 'Yeah, then I could climb back up-and he could throw me off again'. It's in a joking way to start with but the Funk bit finishes with "after a while I got serious and said quietly to Terry 'I think I can do it'. Also, just the way he talks about it combined with the fact he doesn't once mention it wasn't planned (which I'm pretty sure he would if that was the case) confirms it for me

I was actually just looking for his book because I don't remember him mentioning it in there. That is a pretty big sign if he didn't. It would also make sense that as the legend of the second fall being unplanned grows, he would go along with it.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Who is driving the debate though? I pretty much bought Foley's story from the start. Hell, upon my 68th reading of Have a Nice Day I probably had created memories of the match that didn't belong to me.

[CSL]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DjQTK_MpFXc?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QfFl_rAH4Ig?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway

wrestlers always tell the truth, especially to "outsiders". Even more so those that came through in the 80's.

[Swiss Ultimate]

So your proof that he's lying is because sometimes people lie.

Gotcha.

[Swiss Ultimate]

I think some people want to believe so badly that they're in the know that they invent controversy where there is none. It can't be that Mick Foley legitimately could have died in the ring that night because of an unplanned accident, it has to be that it was all part of wrestling magic. Wink wink.

[#1-norm-fan]

It's a business that was built on blurring the line between fantasy and reality. I don't think CSL was saying that to prove his point. He was saying it to explain that Taker's words shouldn't be taken as proof either. It's far from illogical to doubt it when people say "No, THAT wasn't part of the script, though."

And like I said, I don't remember Foley mentioning that it was unplanned in his first book and I don't remember hearing about it supposedly being unplanned until years later. If he didn't mention it until then, I definitely call bullshit.

[Swiss Ultimate]

I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof. I don't see the motivation behind lying about this.

[Swiss Ultimate]

He doesn't ever say it was planned (http://youtu.be/2GM6yBEOjU0?t=3h26s).

Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Undertaker all say it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

"The cage ripping and giving way was a complete surprise to both of us, and it did a lot of damage."
-Mick Foley 2004

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway 2002

"The props guy didn't rig it properly, so when Undertaker gave him the choke slam, Cactus went right through the roof"
-Terry Funk 2006

[Theo Dious]

wrestlers always tell the truth, especially to "outsiders". Even more so those that came through in the 80's.

Who the fuck would lie about something like that? What benefit would there be to it?

[Swiss Ultimate]

Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

All Together (chanting): For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business.

[Kane Knight]

I mean come on, people have actually climbed down in matches before. It's like asking "If JFK didn't plan to be shot, how else was he going to end his car ride?"

I still love this post.

[CSL]

So your proof that he's lying is because sometimes people lie.

Gotcha.

I think some people want to believe so badly that they're in the know that they invent controversy where there is none. It can't be that Mick Foley legitimately could have died in the ring that night because of an unplanned accident, it has to be that it was all part of wrestling magic. Wink wink.

I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof. I don't see the motivation behind lying about this.

He doesn't ever say it was planned (http://youtu.be/2GM6yBEOjU0?t=3h26s).

Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Undertaker all say it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

"The cage ripping and giving way was a complete surprise to both of us, and it did a lot of damage."
-Mick Foley 2004

"That panel wasn't supposed to break loose."
-Mark Calloway 2002

"The props guy didn't rig it properly, so when Undertaker gave him the choke slam, Cactus went right through the roof"
-Terry Funk 2006

the concept of kayfabe appears to be completely and utterly lost on you or you have no idea what it really means. Yes, everybody knows it's scripted, especially in this day and age but that doesn't mean it's an open book. Jesus christ, it's blatantly a planned spot, the entire match structure builds up to it for fuck's sake. Do you really think there'd have been the world's weakest looking chokeslam planned AFTER that first bump? That makes as little sense as the your posts right now. Look at how the spot comes about, straight up, grabs him, chokeslam, practically out of nowhere. No thoughts of anything else because it didn't matter, get to the big bump already before you have chance to 8th and 9th guess it and wind up making it even worse. Foley doesn't even come off his feet because he's looking to protect himself and take the safest possible bump through the cage. Next thing you'll be coming in here asking whether Hogan really tore every muscle in his back slamming the 900lb Andre the Giant at WrestleMania.

Who the fuck would lie about something like that? What benefit would there be to it?

why the fuck would he be all "yeah, that was planned" if some people think there's a chance it might not have been? Just because the business has been exposed to an unprecedented level over the last 10-15 years doesn't mean that every person inside of it is willing to share every detail anybody might want to know. In fact if anything, it's things like this that are the exact opposite of that, where guys almost get the chance to revel in working somebody. What benefit would there have been for him to not lie about it? You work almost everybody you can as often as possible except for "the boys", it's practically a given right of being in the wrestling business.

Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

All Together (chanting): For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business.

this may be the stupidest post I have ever seen from you.

[Savio]

It was probably a weak looking chokeslam since they both couldn't stand the same panel at once.

[Swiss Ultimate]

LOL, It's still real for CSL, dammit.

[Swiss Ultimate]

I've never seen people try so hard to make people who disbelieve a baseless conspiracy theory feel like they're dumb. I include 9/11 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers and Chem-trail experts in that statement.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Mick Foley: Mark, after that second bump tonight I want you to promise me on your dear wife Sara's life not to tell anyone that we planned for me to fall through the cage and get a concussion. Also make sure the steel chair falls onto my face and knocks a tooth out.

Mark Calloway: Only if Terry promises as well.

Terry Funk: Well, that goes without saying.

Mark Calloway: Fine. I promise to always present the second bump, which we don't even know you'll get to have because of the seriousness of the first bump in which I throw you off the steel cage, possible onto the teleprompters on the spanish announce table, as a pure accident despite the fact that we totally planned it. We'll all just blame it on bad rigging or something.

CSL: I too will take the truth to my grave. *crosses fingers*

Mick Foley: Who the fuck are you?

Terry Funk: Some British Vanilla midget I picked up. Don't worry guys, he'll protect our secret...FOR THE BUSINESS!

All Together (chanting): For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business. For the business.

[Savio]

CSL: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

[Swiss Ultimate]

CSL: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

Also: "That which can be asserted without proof is kayfabe, and also yeah, of course almost killing Mick Foley was part of the plan for the match."

[#1-norm-fan]

LOL, It's still real for CSL, dammit.

This is a very ironic thing to say considering he's on the side of "it wasn't real, dammit"...

[#1-norm-fan]

Next thing you'll be coming in here asking whether Hogan really tore every muscle in his back slamming the 900lb Andre the Giant at WrestleMania.

Well, Hogan did say it, therefore it's been proven as fact. I mean... what reason would he have to lie???

[Swiss Ultimate]

Blue Blazer was supposed to fall to his death. Yoose guys are marks for beleevin' he's dead.

[Swiss Ultimate]

This is a very ironic thing to say considering he's on the side of "it wasn't real, dammit"...

He actually isn't. CSL is pretending that he is an authority on old-school American wrestling culture. He's taking the "wrestling nerd smark" road here, giving us a wink and telling us he know's what's up. Only here it's completely unfounded and embarrassing just like the crying old school fan in his fifties.

I'm making a reasonable conclusion based on the facts we know:

1. Three major players in the events have all said the second bump wasn't supposed to go down the way it did. Mark Calloway in an out-of-character interview. Mick Foley in an out-of-character book. Terry Funk in an out-of-character book.

2. That bump could have very easily killed Mick Foley.

3. The theory that the second bump was planned comes from the internet and not any source connected to the match.

4. The motivation for lying about that second bump is non-existent. It adds zero drama or amazement to the match whether or not it was planned or unplanned.

Is there anyone who doubts that Foley suffered a concussion from the fall? Or that he received the injuries he listed in his book? Was he supposed to lose his ear in Germany as well? Was D-Lo supposed to paralyze Droz?

Even if it was planned, it was a dumb idea and I would have expected both Foley and Taker to have had a little more respect for each other and the profession.

The real point "smarks" should take away from this discussion is that they don't know everything. There's no such thing as a "smart mark" and rolling your eyes at Foley going through the cage says more about the person doing it than anything about the business of professional wrestling.

[Swiss Ultimate]

I mean come on, people have actually climbed down in matches before. It's like asking "If JFK didn't plan to be shot, how else was he going to end his car ride?"

:lol:

Foley and Taker agreed that to top the original hell in a cell match, a good way to start it would be on the top of the cage, and also with a huge spot. The start was planned with him throwing Foley off the top. It then would have wound up in the cell or whatever.

However, as we know that first fall was a lot further than they thought it would be, and he landed badly. After being knocked out, he impulsively went back up there to restart the match up on top where it was supposed to start.

As you could see early on, the roof of the cage wasn't supporting the weight of the two sizely men. The cell had never been traveled to the top of, so it wasn't engineered for that. They had no clue it would be so vulnerable. As you can see a few times they almost go through on their own weight and begin to use careful footing on the structural beams instead of the chainlink panels.

The chokeslam, which was pretty dumb of them (especially the conscious taker) knowing the weakness of the cell just from their own weight, naturally broke the cage material and he fell unexpectedly to the mat.

And in response to whoever said it was rigged with hinges, you are wrong. The future hell in a cells that used the same spot were hinged. This one was purely an accident, and as you can see the cage rips and doesnt do so very neatly.
It appears the cage was attached to the structure with twist ties, probably metal ones.


Motivation for bumping this thread: http://deadspin.com/hey-its-15-years-and-a-day-since-mick-foley-got-thr-611685778

This actually destroys CSL's and WWF's fantasy version of events pretty well.

"Because this fall was unplanned and uncontrolled, it was immensely more dangerous than the first. This time, no snappy patter from Ross. Just a yelp from Jerry Lawler, and silence until it was clear that Foley was still moving."

[#1-norm-fan]

Wow.

DESTROYS IT.

I actually don't have a "fantasy version" of the events and have only pointed out reasons why Taker and Foley WOULD go along with it if it was planned and that Foley not mentioning the fact that it was unplanned in his book is a big point in CSL's favor. Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.

[Savio]

So Randy Savage slept with Steph?

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't know. Ask The Undertaker.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Wow.

DESTROYS IT.

I actually don't have a "fantasy version" of the events and have only pointed out reasons why Taker and Foley WOULD go along with it if it was planned and that Foley not mentioning the fact that it was unplanned in his book is a big point in CSL's favor. Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.

If you don't have a fantasy version, then why are you arguing?

I'm merely pointing out that assuming Foley and Taker lie about planning the second bump is assuming you know Foley and Taker better than what they have revealed to people via media and interviews. You don't, I don't. Your whole reason for disbelieving them is because they're wrestlers.

You disbelieve the man as a default who wrote:

Now, we should probably get something straight. I know you didn't pay $25 (unless your cheap ass waited for the paperback) to have your intelligence insulted. I will not try to portray professional wrestling as being a "real, competitive sport." I will readily admit to occasionally stomping my foot on the mat, and always placing a greater emphasis on entertainment value than on winning. I have, however, over the course of fifteen years of blood, sweat, and tears, compiled a list of injuries that I would compare to that of any "legitimate" athlete.

And let's look at your "argument":
Foley not mentioning the fact that it was unplanned in his book is a big point in CSL's favor.


Not even worthy of Loose Change of 9/11 Truther fame. He didn't feel the need to mention that losing his ear was unplanned either. Notice that he also didn't mention that it was planned. He also didn't mention his raging erection so I guess you and CSL believed he had a planned boner which to this day Undertaker and Terry Funk will swear was just an unscripted rush of blood to his penis.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/U09oXyiAkOc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sound more legitimately real than

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AjjOnoBzwTw?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.

I didn't cite any "proofs". I cited an explanation that to any reasonable person is vastly more plausible than the secret old-school wrestling conspiracy you and CSL have concocted in your heads.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VEOCz5Lg6Qs?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

All I know for sure is if Undertaker's lying here it's the best acting of his career.

[Swiss Ultimate]

So Randy Savage slept with Steph?

No, since there's actually a rumor about that and Randy Savage never said he didn't do it we can, using WWF's logic, we can now conclude his innocence. Only in cases with absolutely no evidence and where the claim is based completely on unsubstantiated speculation can we assign guilt, especially when the claim is disputed.

If Randy Savage had said he didn't sleep with Stephanie McMahon it would have been proof that he was lying and that the penetration had been scripted by Vince.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

There's no way they would have had that chair there if the they thought it could give way. The table saved Foley from death but the chair made it 10000 times worse.

[#1-norm-fan]

I didn't cite any "proofs".

I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof.

[ron the dial]

what a silly fucking thing to argue about, guys.

[Swiss Ultimate]

I think Mark Calloway's words should be taken as proof. I don't see the motivation behind lying about this.

I didn't cite any "proofs". I cited an explanation that to any reasonable person is vastly more plausible than the secret old-school wrestling conspiracy you and CSL have concocted in your heads.


Your "proofs" that "destroy" the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned and Jim Ross' commentary being uncharacteristic are fucking facepalm-worthy though.


You're doing it wrong.

I didn't cite "proofs" to "destroy" your version of events. I cited an explanation. That I think Undertaker's words should be taken as evidence toward the great possibility that the second bump was unplanned is not what I used to "destroy" anything.

So you searched the thread for a single instance of me using the word "proof" and what did it get you?

Nowhere. In no way is it likely that you were referring to my mention of Undertaker's assertion as the proof to destroy "the other side of Taker saying it wasn't planned".

Maybe you meant something else?

[#1-norm-fan]

I'm talking about both points together. Your use of the words "proof" and "destroy" for stuff that clearly isn't "proof" and clearly doesn't "destroy" anything are horribly obvious ways of trying to use strong language to try to make your points seem more valid. You're better than that. Taker saying it is not proof and JR's reaction does not destroy anything. You know that. It's on par with trying to compare the idea of wrestlers keeping kayfabe with 9/11 conspiracy theories. Come on.

[Swiss Ultimate]

Well then you missed some points. Terry Funk, Mick Foley and Undertaker all said the same thing years apart from each other. It contradicts your theory, of course.

What destroys it is the fact that there exists a much better theory to explain the situation.

The facts fit that theory.

There are no facts that support the conspiracy theory that you and CSL have latched onto. That even assertions by the people involved are to be taken as proof supporting their "guilt" is fairly ridiculous even within the dumb context that CSL is suggesting of them "protecting the business" because they all came up in the 80s (except Funk who has been around since the 30s).

The idea that you can't believe a wrestler writing his memoirs or talking in a legitimate interview based on some old-school stereotype is silly, especially when so much that Mick Foley has already written and said himself contradicts that premise.

There's simply no real reason, aside from the desire to feel and appear like an insider in professional wrestling to disbelieve Foley's, Undertaker's and Funk's assertion that the second bump was unplanned.

It certainly was the most reckless bump in Foley's and Undertaker's combined careers. No intelligent person would have seen the risk there as worth the reward. Take out the second bump, take out Foley climbing the cage a second time and the EMTs and referees in the ring and the match would actually have considerably better pacing while still telling the same story.

It would have been amazing if there had been more back and forth and maybe even an extra kick-out or two by Mankind before it was finished. We didn't need the second bump. The second bump could have ended the match and Foley's life. If the cage panel had fallen differently Foley would have landed on top of his skull. Would Undertaker really do that to a good friend? Risk his career so that Foley could live on as the Hardcore Legend?

[#1-norm-fan]

There are no facts that support the conspiracy theory that you and CSL have latched onto. That even assertions by the people involved are to be taken as proof supporting their "guilt"

I hate to steal others catchphrases here...

But you've been stuck in strawman mode for this entire page. I explained very clearly earlier how CSL and myself were not saying "Taker saying it was unplanned proves it was planned" but instead "Taker saying it was unplanned doesn't prove it was unplanned". And now you've come BACK to the "assertions by people involved are taken to be proof supporting their guilt" thing. You're so stuck in this strawman you've become impossible to talk to.

[Swiss Ultimate]

You were wrong when you explained that. CSL clearly believes the second bump was planned and has stated it several times since 2008. By latching onto him in this thread you associate yourself with his claim.

It's guilt by association.

[Swiss Ultimate]

lol, I misread you. Irony.

You didn't explain it very clearly, because you're not arguing the same thing as CSL in this instance. You, personally, say that beliebing wrestlers like Taker, Foley and Funk doesn't "prove" anything. Which, if you were being reasonable, it certainly does leans strongly toward the side of "proving".

You have three people all involved with consistent stories in the face of absolutely zero evidence to contradict their stories.

CSL, in fact, is all about his "old-school" theory that guys like Taker are just looking for ways to pull one over the fans.

While your assertion is wrong, his is more wrong.

[ron the dial]

*grand jack off gestures and cum tosses abound*

[#1-norm-fan]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/1373407_o.gif

[Swiss Ultimate]

*grand jack off gestures and cum tosses abound*

Never before has someone so eloquently and accurately described the wrestling forum.

[ron the dial]

don't get me wrong, i love this forum (hence my use of "grand"), but good lord guys. it's not like this debate is even taking place between 2 muties. it's 2 intelligent (i'm talking CSL and DTTS here) men carrying on like muties. planned or unplanned, mick foley is still probably my favorite wrestling personality of all time and IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. AT ALL. the spot is just as disgusting/amazing either way.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Never before has someone so eloquently and accurately described the wrestling forum.

and every other forum.

[Swiss Ultimate]

don't me wrong, i love this forum (hence my use of "grand"), but good lord guys. it's not like this debate is even taking place between 2 muties. it's 2 intelligent (i'm talking CSL and DTTS here) men carrying on like muties. planned or unplanned, mick foley is still probably my favorite wrestling personality of all time and IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. AT ALL. the spot is just as disgusting/amazing either way.

I can't argue with that. That said, my wife and kids are visiting the in-laws and I need to occupy my time so I don't get in any trouble. Responding to every post in reference to me really keeps me of the horse.

Seriously though, I don't understand how my initial comments in this thread really were all that controversial to start with. I never make these matters better, but it seems like people blow things I say out of proportion from time to time and through some crippling flaw in my personality I am compelled to exhaustively disagree with people about these sorts of things.

[ron the dial]

this cocksucker site and its rep limits

[ron the dial]

I SEE ALL 58 OF YOU GUESTS IN THIS FORUM AND I LOVE YOU AND WISH I COULD REP YOU FOREVER

[ron the dial]

james steele you angry texan shitlord i would pos rep you right now if i could. i see you out there. you need to know that IT'S OK.

[James Steele]

:love:

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Really happy that Alan Partridge gif has made it as a tpww meme.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Oh hey. There's another page

[seapig4]

This thread should be turned into a new age bible

[James Steele]

If this is a new bible, I'll start working on the chapter about Triple H and his awe-inspiringly awesome submission maneuver - The Inverted Indian Deathlock.

[James Steele]

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/X0f3gdGYWpU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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[CSL]

was going to shit on DTTS for "being DTTS"/the barrage of ridiculousness but then I saw his last post and it kind of took the wind out of my sails/would make me feel like a bad human being/heartless interwebs poster. For the record in relation to that Taker video, there was no "pretending that he is an authority on old-school American wrestling culture" from me, that is nonsense. It was "speculation" as I believe DTTS refers to it. Now excuse me while I go and cry in the corner because it feels like WeX e-"I'm not mad, just disappointed"-ed me :(

[ron the dial]

i love you CSL

[ron the dial]

this cocksucker site and its rep limits
i am still out of rep at this very moment

[Tom Guycott]

what a silly fucking thing to argue about, guys.

Welcome to Teh People's Wrestling Interwebs Forum!

[Juan]

You guys should listen to Steve Austin's latest podcast with ex-referee Tim White. Tim refereed the HIAC match between Taker and Foley and they talk about the cage spot.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Well what did he say?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Juan]

Tim White: I just received a phone call from the office the other day because I guess it's the 20th anniversary of Hell in a Cell with Mick Foley and Undertaker and they asked me about my feelings on that. I said "My heart was racing through that whole match." Those Hell in a Cell's are brutal, these freaking guys just kill each other, it's a PPV...

Austin: You were refereeing the Hell in a Cell match?

Tim: Yes

Austin: Hey, what'd you think when that cage broke and Mick went through that thing and basically almost landed on his head? And that cage wasn't supposed to give way, he wasn't supposed to hit the ring.

[Juan]

Tim then went on to tell a story of something Undertaker said to him after the table spot, so he didn't really answer the question but he didn't dispute it either

[Swiss Ultimate]

http://www.PodcastOne.com/pg/jsp/program/episode.jsp?programID=436&pid=280560#.UdsqF31qcQU.twitter

26 minutes in.