TNA > ECW (by ECW, I don't mean WWECW)

[BigDaddyCool]

Has TNA done better and gone further than ECW under Paul Heyman? I think so. I mean, ECW was far easier to watch as in great wrestling and good, but raw storylines. But TNA for better or worse is a growing company, making some money, and has bigger stars than ECW ever had.

Discuss.

[Destor]

Look at the stars TNA has made vs the stars ECW made and say this agian. The stars TNA have they bought.

[Destor]

Joe and AJ are what, THE ONLY TWO?

[BigDaddyCool]

Does abyss count? Also, what do you mean by star? ECW's only true stars are Taz and RVD.

[Destor]

Bullshit.

Taz, RVD, Raven, Sabu, Sandman, New Jack, Dudleyz, the list goes on. These guys can still go around the country today and draw based on nothing more than their ECW runs.

[Destor]

And yeah, I'll give you Abyss.

[Destor]

But there is a huge list of guys who were MADE in ECW.

[Londoner]

Are you joking BDC? I would've loved to have been able to watch ecw while it was around, i can't be fucked with watching TNA.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, if TNA could pull their heads out of their ass, Roode is going to be a star. Plus they have a handful that just need a little work.

[Destor]

Rhoode is very awesome.

[Xero]

It's not that hard to succeed when you have a multi-million dollar company behind you and you can buy up pretty much any talent you want. Have they gone farther? Yes. I'd put them somewhere between WCW and ECW. But better? No. Not yet, anyway.

[BigDaddyCool]

Bullshit.

Taz, RVD, Raven, Sabu, Sandman, New Jack, Dudleyz, the list goes on. These guys can still go around the country today and draw based on nothing more than their ECW runs.

Taz and RVD are on a completely different level of star. I'll give you Raven and the Dudleys. As for Sabu, Sandman, and Shane Douglas...I'm always hestiant about calling them stars, they are indy legends, but and had a few decent runs in the majors, but just aren't the same.

But still, point taken, ECW has made more stars. And TNA has been around almost as long as Extreme Championship Wrestling was still extreme. But, TNA seems like is has much more staying power.

[BigDaddyCool]

Though, just so you know, RVD alone is a bigger name than AJ, Abyss, Soma Joe, and Rhoode combined. So I'm not arguing that ECW hasn't made stars, I'm just saying TNA is doing pretty decent right now.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, it does piss me off when TNA sheeps start chanting TNA. It was cool in ECW, but it is gay anywhere else.

[FourFifty]

ECW has something TNA can never get.
A fucking cult following.

[BigDaddyCool]

I don't know. Cults are usually made up of mindless drones, and TNA's fans are mindless drones.

[Loose Cannon]

yea, you're pretty off here BDC. I will agree that TNA probably have done better gorwing as a company, but they don't have Paul Heyman running the ship in that department. which is a good thing. As far as stars and programming, ECW was leagues ahead

[BigDaddyCool]

I was fairly impressed with the World X Cup they got going on.

[Jaded-Dragon]

I liked TNA better when it had a four sided ring and was called ROH.

[Destor]

lol

[BigDaddyCool]

I liked TNA better when it had a four sided ring and was called ROH.

RoH still exist you dumb fucking faggot. I fucking hate you and hope you choke to death on a penis.

[Destor]

lol.

[Gertner]

TNA also has a trillion more dollars behind them than ECW did.

[Loose Cannon]

I dunno, I almost think Heyman still would of run ECW to the ground with a trillion dollars

[Theo Dious]

I'm agreeing with BDC, and not just because I generally do so. If by some odd circumstance you could have TNA side by side with ECW Classic, TNA would dwarf ECW. ECW was a wrestling sideshow; without the WWF and WCW to set it against, it had no value. TNA on the other hand would be far better WITHOUT WWE.

As far as ECW's made stars, I'll concede Taz, RVD, and the Dudleyz. I'll even throw in Rhino. Sabu and Sandman aren't stars, they're "guys from ECW." New Jack, i've actually heard referred to as "that maniac from ECW." Raven may have been established in ECW, but without his WCW run he wouldn't even be any kind of name today.

And just to back up BDC, RVD, Taz, and the Dudleyz are bigger than everyone else who ever wrestled in ECW put together. The only reason any of those guys still draw is because they constitute the only way old-school ECW fans can get a taste of the old days. If you put ECW back together today, in its original form, unconnected to Vince McMahon in any way, I guarantee you it would still die off after a few months.

Now, just to prove that I'm not just parroting everything that BDC says, I will point out that I do not care for ROH.

[Theo Dious]

I dunno, I almost think Heyman still would of run ECW to the ground with a trillion dollars

I'm inclined to agree. Heyman is a maniac and without a leash on his neck I doubt he'd be able to manage a company with any amount of cash. If you'd given him a trillion dollars, he probably would have signed Hogan to a ten-year hundred billion dollar contract.

[McLegend]

Are you serious now?

Crowds chanted ECW years after ECW went under. They ain't ever doing that with TNA.

[Theo Dious]

Are you serious now?

Crowds chanted ECW years after ECW went under. They ain't ever doing that with TNA.

Yeah, because it became cool. I chanted EC-DUB at a house show when RVD whipped out a Van Daminator and I never even LIKED ECW.

[Theo Dious]

Also I was drunk off my ass.

But it's well documented that a lot WWE fans are sheep. You start a chant for someone they're even mildly interested in, and they join.

[Theo Dious]

I guarantee you that many people sat back down after enjoying a rousing "EC-DUB" chant, looked at their friend next to them and asked "what does EC-DUB" mean?

[Xero]

I guarantee you that many people sat back down after enjoying a rousing "EC-DUB" chant, looked at their friend next to them and asked "what does EC-DUB" mean?

Then the other friend probably said "It stands for his real name, "Ernest Carter Dublin"."

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, ECW is legend now, so its "stars" look better by associaction. Also ECW was edgy in a time when wrestling and edgy were hot. TNA is pulling decent number in a time when wrestling is dead.

ECW is/was in Philly, which is a wrestling hot bed. TNA is in Florida, which is kind of a dead zone for wrestling fans, but get mostly tourist, and it is doing well.

[Fox]

I'm inclined to agree. Heyman is a maniac and without a leash on his neck I doubt he'd be able to manage a company with any amount of cash. If you'd given him a trillion dollars, he probably would have signed Hogan to a ten-year hundred billion dollar contract.


Your second sentence shows us how little you understand what happened to ECW, and the third sentence proves how little you understand Paul Heyman.

ECW was screwed over and over again, despite the stars they created. They made Raven, WCW took him. They showcased amazing stars like Mysterio, Psychosis, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin and Mick Foley, and they were lured away to WCW and the WWF. He created a new breed of professional wrestling; one with edge and raw storylines and sex and intense violence, as well as incredible wrestling action, and those ideas were repackaged and presented as WWF Attitude and the WCW Cruiserweight division.

They lost Taz. They lost Raven and then they lost Mike Awesome, the then ECW World Champion, and those losses helped dig the hole ECW fell into.

They were also screwed by TNN, who fucked with their show when they finally got national broadcasting, completely ruining the experience for any potential new viewers or fans (some of us may remember the pattern of 5 Minute Commerial - 2 Minutes of ECW - 5 Minute Commercial - 2 Minutes of ECW - etc, etc).

Paul did everything he could to keep the company afloat despite all of these troubles, but when it came to money, there wasn't anything more he could do. He kept losing his biggest draws and as a result, lost parts of the audience, and the revenue that they would have intaken. But that's not entirely his fault.


Also, Heyman would NEVER have hired Hogan. Don't be fucking daft.

[Loose Cannon]

ECW was at it's best from 95-97 and was edgiest at that point. That's the reason why ECW gained popularity and why WCW later gained back a lot of momentum. While WWE was having Doink and Dink vs Bam Bam and Luna, ECW was doing the whole Raven/Dreamer angle. WWF didn't start going adult until later 97

[McLegend]

Yeah, because it became cool. I chanted EC-DUB at a house show when RVD whipped out a Van Daminator and I never even LIKED ECW.

Yeah, but it started because people loved ECW. People had an emotional attchment to it. No one really has any attachment to TNA

[McLegend]

ECW was at it's best from 95-97 and was edgiest at that point. That's the reason why ECW gained popularity and why WCW later gained back a lot of momentum. While WWE was having Doink and Dink vs Bam Bam and Luna, ECW was doing the whole Raven/Dreamer angle. WWF didn't start going adult until later 97

Exactly, it changed wrestling and how it was produced in the 90's, and still affects it today.

TNA is probably never going to accomplish that.

[Hanso Amore]

ECW was the best booked promotion.

But come on, TNA is years ahead of everything business wise, so therefore they have gone farther. They have a Semi Successful Prime time Cable show, they run 12 ppvs a year, have a house show circuit, and have had major success overseas with tours as well as their shows being picked up.

They also have done something ECW never did....Make a profit.

This is coming from a guy that has been to 54 original ECW shows and still keeps the tickets. I love ECW to this day. I was there from the start.

No one will ever have a better booked promotion. But wrestling isnt about 5 star matches, it is about making money and beating the competition. TNA has gone way farther than ECW ever could have.

[BigDaddyCool]

ECW was screwed over and over again, despite the stars they created. They made Raven, WCW took him. They showcased amazing stars like Mysterio, Psychosis, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin and Mick Foley, and they were lured away to WCW and the WWF. He created a new breed of professional wrestling; one with edge and raw storylines and sex and intense violence, as well as incredible wrestling action, and those ideas were repackaged and presented as WWF Attitude and the WCW Cruiserweight division.

Foley was already a name before ECW. Foley is ECW like Bam Bam Bigelow is ECW. That isn't a knock to either guy, but they had both already tasted mainstream success before ECW and did well after. ECW didn't make either a star, but it allowed them to get some great matches and make other people stars. If it wasn't for Bam Bam, Taz wouldn't have gotten over. If it wasn't for Catus Jack, Sabu would have been over.

[GD]

Dude you gotta watch that one video of Tommy Dreamer expressing his feelings over Vince McMahon winning the ECW World Heavyweight Championship back last year. Well WCW was popular though it made only one huge star...and that was Almighty Bill Goldberg and all the others came from outside. TNA's home grown talent is way too small. I mean they have great talents like Daniels, Williams, Abyss, CHRIS FUCKING SABIN and many more. But the only homegrown talent that they can actually market are Styles and Joe.

[Mooияakeя™]

tbh call me old skool, but I actually hate the 6-sided ring now. Wrastlin' was and always will be a squared circle to me. It's not MMA, so just leave it. Be what u are. Use it here and there.

I see what BDC is saying. I think they're jsut 2 different era's. Maybe TNA is doing what it is doing as it's really the only viable option to watch if WWE is griping your balls so much, where as ECW had WCW in the way.

For me, if ECW was running what it was, with the fan base and popularity of wrestling back then, but in todays time frame right now. TNA would be nowhere and ECW would be making a profit, but at the same time we'd be actually watching the thing and loving it.

[Mr. JL]

Seriously... ECW beats out TNA in terms of creating stars just soley based off of Raven and Rob Van Dam together.

I have no doubt in my mind tho, that TNA does the business/investors side of a company better than ECW.

[Theo Dious]

Your second sentence shows us how little you understand what happened to ECW, and the third sentence proves how little you understand Paul Heyman.

I stand by the second. Heyman is nuts. He reached a huge untapped base of fans, fans who are also nuts. Don't assume that I'm slamming him by calling him a maniac. And he should never have been involved with ECW's purse strings. If you want to talk about "ECW built up big stars and then lost them--" that is bad business. Especially when you start investing money and time in a guy whos' going to get snapped up by one of the bigger companies. People cried foul when TNA started to clamp down on the non-TNA dates their darlings could work; perhaps ECW would have fared better if they'd done similarly. Probably not, though, ECW was a good metaphor for what happens to the body when too many steroids are introduced; you have far too much mass without the support structure to handle it.

As for the third sentence, look up the meaning of hyperbole. And anyways, I'm sick of hearing about how I don't understand Paul Heyman.

Bottom line, if you take away the insane bumps, flaming tables, people hitting each other with sticks, and RVD making frequent drug references, you aren't left with much, ECW was basically the equivalent of a guerilla force in wrestling, and its demise at a time when its faithful wanted more, more, more, has sealed its place a a legend of wrestling viewed through the rosiest of lenses.

[Theo Dious]

Yeah, but it started because people loved ECW. People had an emotional attchment to it. No one really has any attachment to TNA

People love Hornswoggle, too.

[Destor]

He reached a huge untapped base of fans
Just real quick, the audience wasn't so much untapped as it was recently ignored. Subtle distinction but yeah. WWF was doing their uber-cheese and WCW had recently started to follow suit and there was no market for adults in pro-wrestling. ECW became that.

[Destor]

Bottom line, if you take away the insane bumps, flaming tables, people hitting each other with sticks, and RVD making frequent drug references, you aren't left with much, ECW was basically the equivalent of a guerilla force in wrestling, and its demise at a time when its faithful wanted more, more, more, has sealed its place a a legend of wrestling viewed through the rosiest of lenses.
Also anyone who says ECW was nothing more than Hardocre is a guy who only knows the ECW the WWE has told them about.

[Juan]

Yeah ECW will always have a special place in my heart. I don't think I've watched more than 10 mins of TNA.

[Juan]

Also, comparing TNA to ECW is like comparing ice cream to horse manure.

[McLegend]

People love Hornswoggle, too.

This proves nothing.

[Fox]

Bottom line, if you take away the insane bumps, flaming tables, people hitting each other with sticks, and RVD making frequent drug references, you aren't left with much, ECW was basically the equivalent of a guerilla force in wrestling, and its demise at a time when its faithful wanted more, more, more, has sealed its place a a legend of wrestling viewed through the rosiest of lenses.

ECW wasn't JUST about those things you named, and you sound like the broken WWE machine that constantly waters down "the new ECW" because "nobody wants to see the old ECW."

Bullshit, man. ECW isn't dead, the spirit of ECW is still alive, and it was almost tangible at the first One Night Stand. Yeah there were insane bumps, flaming tables, people hitting each other with sticks. But there was SO MUCH more than that. There was great wrestling man, between guys like Storm/Jericho, Mysterio/Psychosis, Eddie/Benoit, Tanaka/Awesome. There were innovative spots and intense violence - things you don't see on WWE TV. There was emotion in RVD and Paul Heyman's promos - more emotion and reality and soul than we've seen in any WWE performer for a long, long time. And maybe most importantly there was an energy and a feeling that made all of those fans inside the arena into one voice; one caring, screaming, loving, lusting voice, and that's what ECW was all about.

Get the fuck out of here.

[Fox]

As for the third sentence, look up the meaning of hyperbole. And anyways, I'm sick of hearing about how I don't understand Paul Heyman.

Then don't say stupid shit like "Paul would spend 100 billion to hire Hogan."

[Ruien]

ECW may have a special place in everyones hearts here, but how many casual fans acually care about it? Everyone here seems to argue that ECW was better for eithier A)ECW made stars and B) ECW something they liked.

A) The NWO angle WCW did was mainly Hogan, Scott Hall, and Kevin Nash. How many of them were home grown? The NWO thing was what brought WCW over the top. Money to buy talent is better than growing talent and losing it.

B) Maybe to a hardcore fan, ECW was better. But ECW never brought in the casual fan, let it be because of the t.v. deals, low budget, ect. THe fact remains they were not able to obtain them, TNA is doing this.

Also, TNA has Kurt Angle.

[Destor]

ECW had Angle first :shifty:

Anyway saying how many casuals cared about ECW can be thrown right back into your face with casuals dont care about TNA either.

[Destor]

Also if you want to get into ratings ECW on TNN pulled the same rating OR HIGHER without the stars, so yeah. EAT IT.

[NeanderCarl]

Your second sentence shows us how little you understand what happened to ECW, and the third sentence proves how little you understand Paul Heyman.

ECW was screwed over and over again, despite the stars they created. They made Raven, WCW took him. They showcased amazing stars like Mysterio, Psychosis, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin and Mick Foley, and they were lured away to WCW and the WWF. He created a new breed of professional wrestling; one with edge and raw storylines and sex and intense violence, as well as incredible wrestling action, and those ideas were repackaged and presented as WWF Attitude and the WCW Cruiserweight division.

They lost Taz. They lost Raven and then they lost Mike Awesome, the then ECW World Champion, and those losses helped dig the hole ECW fell into.

They were also screwed by TNN, who fucked with their show when they finally got national broadcasting, completely ruining the experience for any potential new viewers or fans (some of us may remember the pattern of 5 Minute Commerial - 2 Minutes of ECW - 5 Minute Commercial - 2 Minutes of ECW - etc, etc).

Paul did everything he could to keep the company afloat despite all of these troubles, but when it came to money, there wasn't anything more he could do. He kept losing his biggest draws and as a result, lost parts of the audience, and the revenue that they would have intaken. But that's not entirely his fault.


Also, Heyman would NEVER have hired Hogan. Don't be fucking daft.

Tough luck. You build stars and eventually they leave. That's the business. If Heyman had been a viable businessman, he could have promoted a company that would make enough money that he could afford to lock his stars into longterm contracts. He certainly had the knack for building them, but never the capital to keep them. That's his own problem.

Oh, and the fact that Heyman would "NEVER" have hired the biggest drawing card in the history of the business just goes to show why the original ECW is now dead and buried.

[NeanderCarl]

In his defence, TNA has lost about $40m in five years, whereas ECW went bankrupt for just $9m after being in business nearly double that amount of time.

So technically, from a business perspective ECW > TNA.

Of course, down the line if TNA makes some serious moolah, that $40m will be seen as a necessary evil in order to build a successful business.

$40m spent building a succesful and profitable company in the long term > $9m spunked on short term notoriety and to have a select section of the crowd chant your three intials at profitable shows promoted by rival companies.