"Rap isn't music cause all it is is pushing buttons.."

[Kris P Lettus]

DJ Shadow, DJ NuMark, and Cut Chemist-"Pushing Buttons"

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[BigDaddyCool]

Playing a paino is all pushing buttons, it is considered music.

[Kris P Lettus]

Yep..

See I've gotten into two separate arguments lately with shitheads who hate "rap".. I've broken them down so much that they say things like "making beats is nothing but pushing buttons" etc.. After comparing a great MC like Mos Def to a rock singer/song writer (because both write songs and MCs like Mos wouldn't be good without having a God given good voice) BOTH the guys I've argued with have broken down even further and said that if you don't play an instrument then you are not a musician..

:-\

[Kris P Lettus]

Playing instruments can be taught, having a good voice is natural..

[St. Jimmy]

It's a talent. It's a skill. But it is not music.

[Kris P Lettus]

What makes it "not music"??

So, if a guy was standing in front of a huge set of percussions and did a live show, what is different than what they did??

I guess drums aren't instruments either..

[Destor]

Music:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/smE-uIljiGo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/smE-uIljiGo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

OR

<EMBED src=http://www.youtube.com/v/0O2aH4XLbto&hl=en&fs=1 width=425 height=344 type=application/x-shockwave-flash allowfullscreen="true"></EMBED>

[FakeLaser]

DJ Shadow is a musical genius

[Slow]

Now i don't claim to know too much about this 'rap' thing, or the skippety hops, alls i know is, it's shit. That is all.

Metallica, Bob Dylan, Radiohead - Musicians.

M&Ms, Doctor Dray, Snoopy - Ramblers. With a beat machine.

[FakeLaser]

You really are slow aren't you

[FakeLaser]

Mentioning Metallica along with Bob Dylan and Radiohead okkkkkkkkkkk

[Kris P Lettus]

Mos Def, Common, and The Roots aren't music..

Slipknot, Puddle of Mudd, and Nickleback are music..

[FakeLaser]

Rap is like any other genre, a whole lot of shit and some good stuff

[Gonzo]

I give up on people who think that rap isn't music. Ignorance prevails.

[Kris P Lettus]

I love how guys like St. Jimmy say shit like that then never back it up..

Actually, I hate that but whatever..

[ron the dial]

so if rap is not music does that mean that electronic is not music? if i'm grooving to a smooth techno beat am i really not listening to music?

fuck that is such an ignorant argument. just because the objects used to create the sounds don't fall into a "traditional" category doesn't mean that it isn't music.

[Kris P Lettus]

Using feedback while playing electric guitar wasn't "traditional" until Buddy Guy came around.. Music evolves..

[Ninti the Mad]

It's music but its simplistic in nature.

It doesnt compare to some solid classic rock/hard rock/metal.

[Ninti the Mad]

And why do you even try and dispute or make the assumption that those bands you listed are more music that slipknot, pom, or nickleback?

Thats kinda negating your argument.

[ron the dial]

i don't understand "more" or "less" music. music is music. just because some people are too dense to look past preconceived notions and biases doesn't change that fact. sure i think nickelback is terrible. doesn't mean that it isn't music.

[U-Warrior]

Wow, some really stupid comments in here.

[Ninti the Mad]

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[Fryza]

Remember learning in music theory that rap, hip-hop, and techno weren't considered music because they lacked one or two of some core principles.

But I can't remember.

[Funky Fly]

OMG that first video :love:

[ct2k]

Never try and convince an ignorant person of anything, seriously

[Funky Fly]

This Ronald Jenkees character creates musical sex. Fucking wow.

[mitchables]

Remember learning in music theory that rap, hip-hop, and techno weren't considered music because they lacked one or two of some core principles.

But I can't remember.

Beat, rhythm and melody are the alleged 'fundamentals' of music, but that last one is nebulous in particular, since percussion groups are regarded as music, relying solely on the merits of the first two. Melody is an important, but not crucial part of music. Most early music would have been purely rhythmic in nature before melody was added to the mix.

I'm not even a rap fan, but I appreciate and understand its place in music history and culture. And mostly, it's not even the style of music I don't like so much as the fact I can't relate to anything that's being rapped about and the whole gangsta image thing. It doesn't appeal to me. I enjoyed the stylings of MC Lars, since he was a nerdy white boy, and I understood what he was rapping about. He used samples I was familiar with, referenced things I could relate to, and I got a big kick out of it, since I usually can't get into rap because I couldn't usually do any of those things. Not because most rappers are black or whatever, but just purely, from a cultural standpoint, there is no reference point for me, and being able to relate is a huge part of enjoying most (lyrical) music personally.

Anyway, the point is it's far-fetched and inaccurate to say rap isn't music, and I would gladly refute anybody who wants to disagree.

[Funky Fly]

mitch, Czech out guys like Atmosphere, Sage Francis, MC Chris, Aesop Rock, Del The Funky Homosapien (Czech out Deltron 3030 while you're at it) and El-P.

A lot different than the mainstream. And none of those guys are remotely gangsta.

BTW, do you still have that recording of that song you guys did that was all "I was walking down the street just a checkin' my shit"?

[Bad Company]

Mentioning Metallica along with Bob Dylan and Radiohead okkkkkkkkkkk
I'll say, fucken radiohead :p

[mitchables]

Ahahaha, yes. Yes I do.

I WAS WALKIN' DOWN THE STREET JUST A CHECKIN' MY SHIT
WHEN THIS CRAZY OLD HO CAME UP DISSIN' ON ME
I SAID "WHAT UP BITCH, WHATCHU TRYIN' TO PULL"
AND MY NIGGAS OVER HERE PULLED A PIECE ON YOU
NOW SHE DIDN'T LIKE THE SHIT, CALLED ME A CUNT
PUT MY HAND IN MY POCKET, GRABBED A BIG FAT BLUNT
WENT SICK ON THE HO, GONNA BUST SOME CAPS
THEN I STOP AND THINK AND GO FOR THE BITCH SLAP

FUCK SHIT UP

Best stereotypical rap song ever, if I do say so.

Also:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cYMwW6Lc-9M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cYMwW6Lc-9M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
:cool:

I will czech out Atmosphere et al, as well.

[Gonzo]

It's music but its simplistic in nature.

How so?

[Downunder]

DJ Spooky FTW - the brother made music from sounds of Antartica

[mitchables]

Well, it lacks melodic depth. It's not insulting to rap to suggest it's more minimalist than pop or rock. There is less reliance on melody: fact. Not an insult. Thus, since nearly an entire musical dimension is (largely) absent, it is perhaps less melodically complex, but probably far more rhythmically complex than pop or rock.

[mitchables]

Fucking Downunder.

[Gonzo]

I just typed out a pretty lengthy response to all of the nay-sayers but then I just decided I wouldn't post it because if you want to believe rap isn't music then just don't listen to it. There are figures in the rap industry that are musical geniuses. Your ignorance doesn't change that.

[Danny Electric]

Del Tha Funky Homosapien is awesome.

[Gonzo]

Well, it lacks melodic depth. It's not insulting to rap to suggest it's more minimalist than pop or rock. There is less reliance on melody: fact. Not an insult. Thus, since nearly an entire musical dimension is (largely) absent, it is perhaps less melodically complex, but probably far more rhythmically complex than pop or rock.

I think that this is pretty accurate. Now, if someone had stated this in the beginning rather than just spout off like a douche we wouldn't have this problem.

I won't argue with the elements of melody not being incorporated as mitch already cleared this up. The portion most people fail to realize is that yes, rap music is more rhythmically complex. The music also contains samples from any number of things. I can speak best about RZA's work just because I listen to it a great deal. If you listen to a given song and turn the bass down, you can hear all sorts of crazy sampling. The layers upon layers in the song are just as complex as any pop, rock etc.

[Destor]

This Ronald Jenkees character creates musical sex. Fucking wow.
Best post all thread.

[Loose Cannon]

ummmmm, guys

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[ron the dial]

the sad thing is country music stations actually played that and people LIKED it.

[Stickman]

I play the spoons, is that music? (i don't actually play the spoons but it could be considered music)

[El Fangel]

I would like to point out, that as much as I don't care for rap, I still consider it music, hell I actually like older rap, for example pretty much all the songs on GTA: SA, which has rap from around 1992 I like, its just the tidal wave of all the new stuff that sounds the same to me that i don't like.

[Ninti the Mad]

I dont even think rap is more rhythmically complex than alot of rock/metal groups out there.

just saying

[Ninti the Mad]

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[Ninti the Mad]

Rap more complex than this??? nahhh

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[mitchables]

I didn't say it was more complex than all rock or pop. I was making broad generalisations.

Besides, the Volta are experimental/progressive before they're "rock". Prog and experimental bands are supposed to be complex, out-there shit.

[mitchables]

And for every Volta, Don Caballero, Battles, Minus the Bear, Sufjan Stevens, Architecture in Helsinki, Broken Social Scene, +/-, or other musically (melodically, rhythmically and using diverse time signatures) complex rock/pop/folk/what have you bands, there are like fifteen Nickelbacks a pop.

[The Mask]

different genres bring different emphasis'. rock is all about your excellent distorted guitars. rap is about beat, atmosphere and wordplay. there are still excellent hooks in a lot of rap songs, like dre's G thang.

you have to understand electronic music in almost all shapes and forms is more about tonality than melody. if there's a bassline in a song you really like, someone has probably sat in a room for a very fucking long time making it sound like it does.

anyone who takes their music seriously isn't going to sit there using preset sounds. writing electronic music is easily 10x harder than writing a song in a band. and anyone who calls it pushing buttons obviously hasn't ever tried. i've knocked out 3 songs in about 2 hours in a band setting, meanwhile every electronic song i ever put together took between 1-3 months, finding samples and tweaking sounds etc etc.

[The Mask]

ps. rap has pretty much sucked balls ever since sampling meant you get bent over a barrel on the royalties front. late 80s early 90s is amazing.

[El Vaquero de Infierno]

different genres bring different emphasis'. rock is all about your excellent distorted guitars. rap is about beat, atmosphere and wordplay. there are still excellent hooks in a lot of rap songs, like dre's G thang.

you have to understand electronic music in almost all shapes and forms is more about tonality than melody. if there's a bassline in a song you really like, someone has probably sat in a room for a very fucking long time making it sound like it does.

anyone who takes their music seriously isn't going to sit there using preset sounds. writing electronic music is easily 10x harder than writing a song in a band. and anyone who calls it pushing buttons obviously hasn't ever tried. i've knocked out 3 songs in about 2 hours in a band setting, meanwhile every electronic song i ever put together took between 1-3 months, finding samples and tweaking sounds etc etc.


You should sample Incubus' "Aqueous Transmission." The notes from the stringed instrument is hard panned to right (or left) and you can individually cut them out, and then do weird shit to them on a sampler. Good times.

[Kris P Lettus]

And why do you even try and dispute or make the assumption that those bands you listed are more music that slipknot, pom, or nickleback?

Thats kinda negating your argument.

IMHO they are 100 times more talented but I was being sarcastic anyway..

ps. rap has pretty much sucked balls ever since sampling meant you get bent over a barrel on the royalties front. late 80s early 90s is amazing.

I hate when people say this.. Mos Def, Talib, Blackalicious, Jurassic 5, The Roots, Strange Famous, Atmosphere, Brother Ali, etc etc etc weren't around back then so that makes this line of thinking null and void..

What's funny to me, I got into it with a guy on an MMA board when I posted about One Day as a Lion.. After saying it was good, out of no where he starts in with how rap sucks and it takes no talent etc.. He was kinda embarassed when I told him that all those songs he like was nothing more than a drum set and a synth..

Same could be said about an album like NIN's The Downward Spiral.. Like 90% of it was electronic and I would reckon that there are some people out there who love NIN but hate "rap"..

It's just a close minded way of looking at things..

[Kris P Lettus]

Sage Francis-"Mullet"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gN2KKzqs7us&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gN2KKzqs7us&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

There used to be a better video online but I can't find it everywhere.. It was better cause he didn't have a DJ so he did all the sound effects himself and you could hear the lyrics better..

[Kris P Lettus]

Also, Sage Francis has gotten mad fat since he's been making money on the underground..

[ron the dial]

to be fair about the "late 80s early 90s" being better than today's rap line of thinking, rap sounds much different now than it did then. so it isn't completely out of bounds to say that you don't like today's rap compared to that. it's a different ballgame, so to speak.

[thedamndest]

What does it even mean when to say something is "more music" or less music" than something else? Either it's music or it isn't.

[Kris P Lettus]

Not really..

Groups like J5 still use oldskool breakbeats and have a general "oldskool" sound..

[Kris P Lettus]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zbf5zzq8U6U&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zbf5zzq8U6U&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Kris P Lettus]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hN_Vm8wdXFY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hN_Vm8wdXFY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Gonzo]

I think that people who don't like rap like to try to discredit the genre by saying that its not music, takes no skill etc. :roll: I don't think it needs any pointing out that you're just being an ignorant douche.

[Gonzo]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-OVeKMSUJD0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-OVeKMSUJD0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Champion of Europa]

Quality Control is one of my favorite albums ever.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PI4iDM09oRE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PI4iDM09oRE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

And to add a new video:

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[JeRz]

This Ronald Jenkees character creates musical sex. Fucking wow.

Just checked out more of his stuff...wow....awesome stuff

[Kris P Lettus]

I love that black Star song..

More Mos Def

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<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GTA1jwlIYC0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GTA1jwlIYC0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Destor]

I have still posted the best music in this thread.

[Kris P Lettus]

It's not music cause it's just pushing buttons..

:roll:

[St. Jimmy]

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[Kris P Lettus]

Way to back up claims with such profound information.. It is an honor to post and debate with someone with such intelligence, St. Jimmy..

[St. Jimmy]

Way to back up claims with such profound information.. It is an honor to post and debate with someone with such intelligence, St. Jimmy..

There's really no debate... It's not like it's a topic of win or lose, it's opinon. You think it's music, I think it's noise.

[Kris P Lettus]

You said it's not music as I said it was.. I (and others) have posted reasons it should be considered music, while you, pretty much the only person on the other side of the conversation, have not.. I pretty much said you wouldn't back up your statements right after you originally posted.. I can tell the future..

[Gonzo]

There's really no debate... It's not like it's a topic of win or lose, it's opinon. You think it's music, I think it's noise.

So because you don't like it, its not music? Rightttt. I think the issue that really isn't a debate is the fact you're a moron.

Call me curious, but what kind of music do you listen to?

[mitchables]

There's really no debate... It's not like it's a topic of win or lose, it's opinon. You think it's music, I think it's noise.

Sorry Jimmy, but... it is a topic of win or lose. You mightn't think it is very good music, but it is music.

Beat + Rhythm + (Melody) = Music.

Contrary to popular opinion, "melody" is not synonymous with "music". It is not the overarching, all-important factor. All you need is a beat - a pulse - to have the fundamental of music. Rhythm extends upon the beat, utilising different note spans within it to create a purely percussionistic form of music. Please do not try and tell me drummers and other percussionists do not count as "musicians". Yet here we have these instrumentalists creating only a beat and a rhythm, and satisfying the requirement of having made "music".

So, the addition of melody later on, much like the addition of chocolate chips to a batch of muffins, while definitely an amazing and important part of the overall picture, is not crucial - at the end of the day, chocolate chips or not, you've still got muffins. You mightn't think they're very good muffins, but they're still muffins.

QED.

[Blitz]

Mitch, just when I think I couldn't possibly love you more, you go and post an MC Lars song. Brilliant :'(

[Destor]

<DT class=hwrd> </DT>


<DT class=hwrd>Main Entry: <DD class=hwrd>mu·sic http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?music001.wav=music')) <DT class=pron>Pronunciation: <DD class=pron>\ˈmyü-zik\ <DT class=func>Function: <DD class=func>noun <DT class=use>Usage: <DD class=use>often attributive <DT class=ety>Etymology: <DD class=ety>Middle English musik, from Anglo-French musike, from Latin musica, from Greek mousikē any art presided over by the Muses, especially music, from feminine of mousikos of the Muses, from Mousa Muse <DT class=date>Date: <DD class=date>13th century 1 a: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b: vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony2 a: an agreeable sound : euphony (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphony) <HER music to my ears> b: musical (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/musical) quality <THE music of verse>3: a musical (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/musical) accompaniment musical (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/musical) composition set down on paper5: a distinctive type or category of music <THERE music for everybody — Eric Salzman><DT class=hwrd>

By the litteral definition of music, if rap doesn't have melody then it's not music. (Now I know nothing of music so I can neither confirm nor deny that it does or does not have melody. But IF it doesn't then it's not music.)


But by the litteral definition I guess drums by them selves aren't music...which I wouldn't really argue against as that would just be noise to me.

But again, I know nothing about music, does rap have melody?
</DT>

[Destor]

<DT class=hwrd>
<DT class=hwrd>Main Entry: </DT><DD class=hwrd>mel·o·dy http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?melody01.wav=melody')) <DT class=pron>Pronunciation: <DD class=pron>\ˈme-lə-dē\ <DT class=func>Function: <DD class=func>noun <DT class=inf>Inflected Form(s): <DD class=inf>plural mel·o·dies <DT class=ety>Etymology: <DD class=ety>Middle English melodie, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin melodia, from Greek melōidia chanting, music, from melos limb, musical phrase, song (probably akin to Breton mell joint) + aeidein to sing — more at ode (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ode) <DT class=date>Date: <DD class=date>13th century 1 : a sweet or agreeable succession or arrangement of sounds : tunefulness (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tunefulness) 2 : a rhythmic succession of single tones organized as an aesthetic whole
— me·lod·ic http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?melodi01.wav=melodic')) \mə-ˈlä-dik\ adjective
— me·lod·i·cal·ly http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?melodi02.wav=melodically')) \-di-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
</DD><DT class=hwrd><DD class=date>
I'd say rap has melody...
</DD>

[Kris P Lettus]

mechanical sounds having rhythm

I'm so glad it said that..

[Destor]

Just occured to me that it says rhythm, melody, OR harmony. So if it has any of them then it's music. So yeah, rap wins.

[Gonzo]

*crotch chop*

[Kris P Lettus]

Textbook definition, bitches..

[Kane Knight]

Yep..

See I've gotten into two separate arguments lately with shitheads who hate "rap".. I've broken them down so much that they say things like "making beats is nothing but pushing buttons" etc.. After comparing a great MC like Mos Def to a rock singer/song writer (because both write songs and MCs like Mos wouldn't be good without having a God given good voice) BOTH the guys I've argued with have broken down even further and said that if you don't play an instrument then you are not a musician..

:-\

I thought this was gonna be about this shithead, to be honest....

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z7RRAx0ujGA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z7RRAx0ujGA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

To be honest, I barely listen to rap these days, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't take talent to loop shit live (And some people can be fucking SICK), or to rhyme with a degree of precision.

[Kris P Lettus]

LMFAO

His freestyle was the shit..

[Gonzo]

<object height="344" width="425"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z7RRAx0ujGA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object> To be honest, I barely listen to rap these days, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't take talent to loop shit live (And some people can be fucking SICK), or to rhyme with a degree of precision.

Anyone who has seen a rap show worth a shit knows this too. :y: Good point.

Not anyone can jump on the tables and scratch or produce a show. A rap show can be ridiculously good, or really bad. It all depends if the artist has the stage presence to accompany their lyrics and beats. I suppose this goes for any genre though.

[Slow]

Well I've been listening to a Primal Scream song where Jesse Jackson is looped saying

"Today on the show you will hear Gospel, Rhythm & Blues, and Jazz. All Those are just labels, we all know that music is music"

And then i thought "Fuck i hate PS3 and Xbox fanboys"

[Kane Knight]

Anyone who has seen a rap show worth a shit knows this too. :y: Good point.

Not anyone can jump on the tables and scratch or produce a show. A rap show can be ridiculously good, or really bad. It all depends if the artist has the stage presence to accompany their lyrics and beats. I suppose this goes for any genre though.

He's probably never been to a rap concert. Ever. And I don't blame him on that, because I've never been to a Country and Western concert. On the other hand, I'm not stupid enough to start ranting about country myths.

Scratching isn't exactly easy. And while I'd like to claim I could freestyle, I'd probably make B-Rad from Malibu's Most Wanted look like Eminem. Making loops requires skills in composing, unless you're ripping the song verbatim (And most acts don't).

And not to mention the number of rock acts where the band actually plays secondary to the lead singer or guitarist.