When WWF/E Started To Suck: A Retrospective Evaluation

[Kalyx triaD]

2003. A few years prior the WWF had acquired WCW and ECW, and it shook up the roster leading to 2003. It was interesting seeing what WCW or ECW wrestler would appear on WWF television. And that's on top of what I felt was the strongest roster in years. Austin, Goldberg (believe it), Lesner (believe that too), RVD, Booker T, Christian fuckin Cage, Hulk Hogan (still loved the guy), Kurt Angle, Tajiri, and many others. The Smackdown! videogame series best game (to date) was based on this time period. Back then come Hell or high water I have to catch my Raw and Smackdown, weekly, feeling defeated if I had to get my updates via third party report. There was something to watch top to bottom and I loved it. My passion would lead me to news sites so I can learn more about the backstage business at work. TPWW served me well, and I discovered a neat forum there as well.

2008. Not only do I not watch any Raw/SD!/ECW, I just barely care if I go a month without looking up a single update. I'm edging closer and closer to not giving a fuck altogether - which I find saddening. Months ago I tried, I really tried to stomach weekly shows. But unlike 2003, I constantly found myself thinking I had something better to do. I see Snitsky on my TV, and by God he represents everything I hate about the product now. He makes wanna find something else to do. I see the pussification of John Cena, and I feel insulted. I'm guessing I simply out grown the product - but that can't be right, there was things in the Attitude Era I probably shouldn't have been subject to. I learned to balance my backstage knowledge with a child-like enthusiasm required to enjoy 'fake' entertainment, surely I should find a PG version of DX enjoyable, right? Right?

:|

Fuck you, WWE, you fucking suck cock.

And I feel everything went downhill when the 'E' was applied. Fist of all, Vince McMahon loses to a wildlife firm nobody ever heard of. To this day I dislike saying WWE. I understand them embracing the entertainment aspect of their craft, but the gayness began about there. Its like they were liberated, worse and worse decisions were made in regard to expanding audiences and a newer light-hearted generation. Or whatever. The fact is Entertainment began to overshadow the Sports, and it hurt my vision for what WWF was to me.

And the roster management. Under no circumstance does treating your employees like products help. What they produce are the product. You script their actions and they direct it in ring. Too many examples show that when a wrestler, writer, and promoter work together - Superstars are born (remember that title?). When writers control everything, we have John Cena. Nuff said there.

So what's your thoughts on where WWF went sour. Was it a letter E? Politics? Vince's ego? Upstart wrestlers who don't respect the craft? Sound off.

[Xero]

WrestleMania 20 was the ending point, for me anyway.

Lesnar left and WWE had just started to go more "Hollywood".

I feel Lesnar leaving was THE point that everything went south. He was clearly the future of the company. Afterward they had to scramble for someone to take his place, first Orton, then Cena and neither could get to Lesnar's level with the overall audience.

[Innovator]

When Stephanie started booking

[Kalyx triaD]

I like to think Heyman's leaving had an effect as well.

[Savio]

I would say wrestling peaked for me probably somewhere between Summerslam 99 and KOTR 99 but it was still good for about 2 years after that, I didn't quite like the invasion but it was an ok feud (Talking bout Angle vs Austin)

I didn't Like it after that ended either: but then the nWo came in follwed by brock lesnar, which pick it up for me even when the nWo left brock carried smackdown. By this time raw was pretty much garbage and I only watched out of habit. Smackdown was interesting Through out Kurt Angles reign as GM. After that was over it started to suck. (It was bad before but still kind of entertaining)

It was getting good again for me when Hassan came in but after he left it sucked again

[Jeritron]

I think it's pretty safe to say it occured in mid-2001. Of course, some will say it "jumped the shark" sooner, or some may say later since 02 and 03 weren't all that terrible.

I just think that theres a bunch of occurences over the span of 1999-2004 that you could point out as turning points and moves towards decline. It's difficult to choose one specific moment or period in time that the shift occured at.
Weighing it all, and comparing the before and after of any of these big shifts, it's pretty safe to say The Invasion is where the biggest shift occured. It went from grace to mediocrity.
Brock leaving was a big turning point. I agree 100%. It was a tough break and left a negative impact on the promotion/product that's still being felt.

However, it was already "starting to suck" before that. He was a diamond in the rough, but as far as the promotion went the rats were already off the ship. The boom was over, the young talent and attitude era stars were pushed aside for Hogan. Things were going downhill, tons of potential big talents and angles were already misfired, and the template for the new/current WWE was already in action.

[Kenny]

I agree with most of what has been said here.

I think it started going downhill right after the WWF purchased WCW. There are a ton of reasons why, but I'll touch some of the major reasons.

1. Instead of playing off of the WCW / ECW wrestler's popularity, the WWF watered them down and used them to put over their guys. Tazz is a good example, and so is DDP. The DDP that came over from WCW was NOT the same DDP who rose to the top in WCW's glory days.

2. When we finally got our dream WWF vs WCW / ECW match, the roster was all screwed up. The WCW team consisted of two WWF guys (Austin and Kurt Angle) and most of WCW's major stars never made an appearance. Goldberg didn't show up until later on, Sting was smart enough to avoid the mess all together, and Ric Flair didn't show up until later either. That match was a DUD!

3. With the abundance of main eventers, the WWF writers didn't know what to do with them all! They split the shows, and it still wasn't enough. This is when they started making really stupid decisions like getting rid of the Intercontinental title. During that time, many mid-carders missed out on a decent push because there was no mid-card title. Bubba Dudley was actually pretty over at that time.

Overall, it was a huge mess. Here's what they SHOULD have done.

1. Kept WWF, WCW, and ECW seperate entities!!!! (McMahon's ego wouldn't let that happen.) That way you have 3 sets of world, mid-card, and tag team titles. Also, you have titles like the European and the Cruiser Weight.

2. McMahon should have stayed the hell out of the way concerning guys like Heyman and Bischoff. Let them run their product.

3. Have a yearly Pay-Per-View mixing the roster. Think of "Night of Champions."

4. Kept the main eventers OVER as main eventers. Tommy Dreamer, Taz, DDP, Booker T, and so on. That way, when they did face the WWF guys it wouldn't have been so damn obvious on what was going to happen.

I don't care what anyone says. McMahon didn't make wrestling, he ruined it.

[Jeritron]

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Interestingly enough, people talk about how things are still shitty now, but slightly better.
There's no reason to believe right now that things are moving towards another boom, or even a signifigant upswing. But who knows. Maybe we'll look back in 10 years and say..."Things started to not suck starting with the HHH move to Smackdown"

Doubtful. Just noting the interesting nature of hindsight

[El Fangel]

I turned Smackdown on last week, I saw Khali in the ring with some big chick kissing her, I turned Smackdown off, Ive lost all hope.

[Jeritron]

I can pinpoint, for me personally, when WWE started to suck. Basically to the minute:
When Rikishi was revealed as the culprit of the "Who hit Austin?" storyline. That storyline was excellent up until then, and it was really the end of the attitude era. It was the first time in that run that they blew it. It was a big deal since it was wrestling's equivalent to "Who shot JR" on Dallas or "Who shot Mr. Burns" on The Simpsons.
It was also the oppurtunity to create or further some of their budding stars. It could have been huge for Angle or Jericho, and propelled them into super stardom as heels. Even Tazz would have been a logical choice and would have gone over well with the crowds.
Instead they chose poorly and a few weeks later they needed HHH to be written in to bail them out. They failed to realize that Rikishi was popular, but not in a way that would translate to a new heel character. He was a novelty. People wanted to face pop him for giving stink faces and dancing. It ruined a huge payoff storyline, it ruined a chance to propel a new top talent, and it ruined Rikishi's career (which never rebounded, and was working just fine as a uppermidcard face).

Basically, it was a huge jump the shark moment for me. Things sucked for a couple months after that. The first half of 2001 rebounded and was amazing, and then the Invasion was like the second version of the jump the shark. It was very similar to the Who Hit Austin failure. Only multiplied by 100.

[Kalyx triaD]

InVasion was cool in concept, but they took no account into us actually liking the guys they were burying. I still remember when DDP was revealed to be Mrs. Taker's stalker. He got such a pop when he threw up the diamond, but then you come back to your senses like, "what the hell is DDP stalking people for!?" Some of their choices were inspired, like putting RVD over Jeff Hardy in a Hardcore Title match - and for a time embracing Spike Dudley. But InVasion was a hint at things to come.

[Jeritron]

Of course the invasion angle was cool in concept. They took what was sure to be the biggest angle in the history of professional wrestling and threw it away.

It was just destined for greatness. It was like Arnold vs Stallone, or Marvel vs DC, or Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter, or Freddy vs Jason.

Just shit that writes itself and bleeds dollar bills. They blew it.

[Jeritron]

You can blame XFL too by the way. WWF had a shit ton of money from the boom, and could and would have invested it in the Invasion.
Instead, the XFL flopped and they had to be more careful with their pile of money.

[Kalyx triaD]

The first Epic Fail in professional wrestling infact.

I would have kept it WWF vs WCW and after a month or two ECW would come in all rebellious and attack any of the two. All out war, an angle that could've lasted a year!

Fuck you Vince. Fuck you very much.

[Kenny]

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Interestingly enough, people talk about how things are still shitty now, but slightly better.
There's no reason to believe right now that things are moving towards another boom, or even a signifigant upswing. But who knows. Maybe we'll look back in 10 years and say..."Things started to not suck starting with the HHH move to Smackdown"

Doubtful. Just noting the interesting nature of hindsight

I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. During the attitude era, fore-site was 20/20 as well. When Stone Cold Steve Austin won the King of the Ring and said "I just whipped your ass" it FELT like something big was about to happen. Then, at Wrestlemania 13 when he made his official face turn, his eventual WWF title run was so obvious it was as if it already happened.

When The Rock started acting cockier than ever, referring to himself in the 3rd person, and acting as if he was God's gift to wrestling; we KNEW something was on the horizon.

I can say the same for guys like John Cena and Randy Orton. Back when Cena started tangling with guys like Lesnar, it was pretty clear that he was on his way to the top. When Orton joined Evolution, the same can be said for him.

The problem NOW is that these pushes are not steady. For example, Orton did get a push but then he got pushed down. As soon as he lost to Taker at Wrestlemania 21 he started a downward spiral. Mysterio even got a clean win over him.

With Cena, I think he needed one more heel run before he could be the top face. People would have hated him so much they'd start to enjoy it, and eventually like him.

[Kalyx triaD]

You can blame XFL too by the way. WWF had a shit ton of money from the boom, and could and would have invested it in the Invasion.
Instead, the XFL flopped and they had to be more careful with their pile of money.

XFL = :rofl:

Ya know, first speculated that XFL was gonna be another form of sports entertainment with scripted outcomes and televised locker room drama. I look back and imagine it failed because people expected that. I still think that would've been interesting.

[Jeritron]

The angle should have lasted, I'd say, about a year and a half.

I always vow not to talk about it anymore, but once you get me going I love discussing it.

[Kalyx triaD]

nWo fell apart for similar reasons - oh, and Scott Hall's a dick. Austin vs nWo was awesome for me. I think Austin works best when he's out-numbered, and nWo works best when they're being bullies. An eventual DX vs nWo would've made my decade.

[Kenny]

nWo fell apart for similar reasons - oh, and Scott Hall's a dick. Austin vs nWo was awesome for me. I think Austin works best when he's out-numbered, and nWo works best when they're being bullies. An eventual DX vs nWo would've made my decade.

Am I the only one that thinks it would have been much more sensible to have Stone Cold fight Hogan at Wrestlemania rather than The Rock? Austin kind of took Hogan's place as the number one guy.

[Jeritron]

No, you're not. I feel exactly the same way.

[Kalyx triaD]

Its debatable which of Austin and Rock carried the company more. I like to think of them as the Superman/Batman of the WWF. Many similarities, much contrast.

[Ruien]

Hassan..........

[Savio]

Austin did want to be in that match

[Evil Vito]

WrestleMania 20 was the ending point, for me anyway.

Lesnar left and WWE had just started to go more "Hollywood".

I feel Lesnar leaving was THE point that everything went south. He was clearly the future of the company. Afterward they had to scramble for someone to take his place, first Orton, then Cena and neither could get to Lesnar's level with the overall audience.

<font color=goldenrod>I feel similar. I loved Lesnar and I always marked for Goldberg even during his bad WWE run because he was the first wrestler I ever marked for when I started watching WCW in '98.

But even without them, I was pumped having Benoit and Eddie as champions, seeing the beginning of the JBL character, seeing Cena continue to rise and have a great heated US Title feud with Booker, lots of great shit.

Hell, I marked the fuck out seeing Orton rise above the rest of Evolution and take the belt off Benoit...until they fucking turned him face the next night and rushed something that easily could have been built up for months. That night was probably the moment that gave my faith in WWE a huge hit.</font>

[Gertner]

When they started targetting to kids and killing off the cruiserweights and resorting to a "safe style"

[thedamndest]

Brand extensions, five hours of tv a week to fill, and three hours a month in PPV is the problem. If they scaled SOME of that back, they would be fine(er).

I would say it started to be more bad than good when the brand extensions happened. I've never liked that concept.

[Kalyx triaD]

Longer matches would curb that some.

[thedamndest]

They don't do those anymore.

[Kalyx triaD]

I know. Its another example of WWE's current gayness.

[DrA]

It's the change from F to E that did them in. The Invasion angle was poorly done, no doubt about that, but they had a stretch in late 2001-early 2002 (ie Chris Jericho's title run) where it was pretty good. They changed to WWE at the same time that they began the brand split, and it really has never been the same since then.

[DrA]

I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.

[KYR]

I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.

True.

But just imagine how much worse it would have been WITHOUT the Bisch.

[Savio]

I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.
I disagree, HHH stunk that up.

[RP]

Can you do a Retrospective Evaluation of how long it took your dumb assholes to realize WWE sucks?

[Zen v.W.o.]

Its debatable which of Austin and Rock carried the company more. I like to think of them as the Superman/Batman of the WWF. Many similarities, much contrast.

It was clearly Austin. The Rock and all the others took a ride on the wave that Austin got started. They didnt cause it, and it's so much easier to ride high when it's already at a boom.

[loopydate]

I will say this though. The RAW brand when Eric Bischoff was the GM was not bad at all.

Ditto for the SmackDown Six era. No matter how bad the other stuff was, Edge, Rey, Angle, Benoit, and the Guerreros were consistently putting on tremendous matches. Plus, you had Lesnar looking like the second coming (albeit one ten times more talented) of Goldberg. That was an exciting time.

[Loose Cannon]

yea, Austin, no questions at all. come on.

But to respons to the thread, there were a lot of situations that played parts in the decline of the WWE. Some were bigger then others (purchase of WCW/ECW), but you can throw a lot of junk together and see why it declined. I agree with a lot of the reasons already mentioned

-Lesnar Leaving, Rikishi storyline, Invasion angle (tremendous missed opportunities), rushed angles etc...

They missed so many opportunities (and they still do) to make superstars and create entertaining scenarios. Look, wrestling booking is not rocket science. it's simple. But like I've said in the past, thier main focus is not on the wrestling program anymore. The WWE had broadened thier horizons big time the past couple of years. They have so many side projects going on, it's not funny. They built thier wrestling show up to a point that has allowed them to venture into other markets. Great for the company. Bad for the true wreslting fan.

And yes, they have gone back to more of a kid friendly program, which has kept them in the good graces of advertisers and all that. When they do try something that resembles anything close to cutting edge, it's usually stupid and way past it's time.


The show isn't the male 18-30 soap opera anymore. it's a clean cut show. no surprising twists, no shocking swerves, no spontaneous moments, no moments that make you want to tune in next week. it's just the same boring show over and over again. And it's been like that for years. and when they pull off something interesting, it may last for a couple weeks at the most.

They've moved away from the "stories" that made the Attitude era so entertaining.

BTW, this weekend I downloaded April and May Raw's from 1999 and I was blown away. I hadn't seen these episodes in 9 years and RAW's were fucking epic back then. It just makes you scratch your head and think "wtf happened" when you look at TV today.

[Loose Cannon]

Ditto for the SmackDown Six era. No matter how bad the other stuff was, Edge, Rey, Angle, Benoit, and the Guerreros were consistently putting on tremendous matches. Plus, you had Lesnar looking like the second coming (albeit one ten times more talented) of Goldberg. That was an exciting time.

see, here's my problem when I hear things like this. I agree with you 100% that the matches were oustanding back then and some of the best ever. But today, the matches are just as entertaining in my opinion.

But the difference maker between today and even back around that time was the stories and character performances booked around the matches. Character wise, those guys you listed up there were/are in a different league then the guys today as a whole. you can have the match of the nights for a year straight, but it won't mean jack shit if the storylines suck or your character/interviews suck.

I'm not really arguing with you here, loopy, I'm just stating the difference maker is not in the matches, it's in the entertainment side of things.

[XL]

It's impossible to pinpoint one moment where it started to slide downhill, just as it is to pinpoint an exact moment where it started to improve.

Some might say that the boom started with Austin's KotR win but realistically events before that are what lead to that that moment happening (WCW's rise to prominence, then their dominance leading to WWF's subsequent "pushing of the envelope"/pushing new stars).

Honestly, a lot of the reasons mentioned here form part of why WWE started to suck - WCW buyout, InVasion angle, 'Who ran down Austin?' angle, etc.

But I think one of the main reasons is simply panic. It seems to me that Vince panicked when he couldn't get TV time for WCW and so booked the InVasion angle sooner than he planned. It seems he panicked during the angle leading to it being sewn up within 4 months. If Vinny could have held on we might have seen a WCW that included Flair, Hogan, Nash, Hall, Goldberg, Mysterio and being led by Bischoff (of course that is all speculation as some of those guys may not have wanted any part of the InVasion angle).

Another time Vince seemed to panic book was - as others have said - when Lesnar left. But I think that's only part of a bigger picture.

This was around the time that Austin and Rock where winding down their careers, for retirement and moving into acting respecfully. In this you were loosing the two biggest characters that had been created during the Attitude Era. The two most well known, most marketable wrestlers from that era where on their way out or already gone.

Then, the man they lined to replace one of them (Lesnar) also jumped ship. Vince panicked and had to rush Orton / Cena into the Main Event scene. More often than not the fans don't like guys being pushed "too soon". This combined with some really poor booking for the two men (both turning into bland babyfaces regardless of the fact that their heel characters got them over in the first place) really affected WWE TV.

In a way they suffered from the same thing as WCW - not building new stars consistently enough.

- Rock, Austin, Lesnar, Hogan, etc leave.
- Benoit, Edge, Guerrero, RVD, Orton, Cena were arguably not ready (due mainly to the way they were booked)
- Which left us with...HHH.

Anyways, thought I'd drop my 2 cents (especially as I've just rewatched InVasion, SummerSlam '01, Unforgiven '01 and Survivor Series '01 again over the last week) even if I'm not telling you something you didn't already know...

[Dave Youell]

The point for me where things started to slide?

When HHH was 'given' the title on Raw from Bisch

For the next 10 months he destroyed the rest of the roster and the shows were just awful

[dablackguy]

You wanna know where the 'E' went downhill? Watch Summerslam when Brock won the title

That thud wasn't just the Rock hitting the mat, it was the E as well

Some of you like Brock. To me, he was ok, but he wasn't ready. Not to carry a company at least. The way he was built up was in such a way that he tore through the roster. And when he got to the top, he was made as though no one could touch him. At that point, he had no mic skill on his own to make things worse.

Compound your unbeatable looking top guy with no real money feuds and your 2 top star leaving and you have the decline of the E

[Kalyx triaD]

Brock winning the title from The Rock was fucking awesome!

[St. Jimmy]

http://images-srv.leonardo.it/progettiweb/showstopper/blog/cena_wwe_champ-WM21.jpg

http://raw-smackdown.ifrance.com/images/WWE%20-%20Batista%20world%20heavyweight%20champion%20%28wrestlemania%2021%29.jpg
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[NeanderCarl]

When Stephanie started booking

Yep. She became head writer in September 2000. The Triple H super-duper-mega-push begins almost to the day. It was bearable at first... Trips went down with an injury and, despite many shortcomings and baffling decisions, some angles/elements of the InVasion story were top-notch. Soon as Trips got back, in early 2002, things went to pot. I'm not blaming HIM personally (although he isn't absolved either), but the two events neatly coincide.

Although really you can trace the tame and uninspiring WWE as we know it today back to the day Titan Sports became WWFE and went public.

[Impeccable]

When (fat) Trips was given the title on Raw...that was horrible. I still break out in a cold sweat when I think about the Big Poppa Pump feud!

[Jeritron]

Yea, that was a frustrating time. It was annoying because HHH and Brock were their guys and they had no interest in anyone else. Even if the fans were calling for it, that was the hierarchy.
So basically you had some of the most popular superstars in years getting jobbed out. People realized times were different and wanted to see Booker T and RVD and others get their push, but it didn't happen while it would have mattered.

[Johnny Vegas]

I believe that HHH is only as good as someone who is a GREAT face. By himself, face or heel, i dont think he can carry the company on his back like Austin, Flair, Rock, etc. That is not taking anything away from the man, i like his in-ring work, his mic skills are awesome, and he has a GREAT heel persona. But like his best friend, when put on top, there is just something about them that are not boosting the ratings or keeping fans.

The 3 guys that i mentioned not only had die-hard fans, but brought in new fans. Of course HHH helped with that boom in the attitude era, but i think that HHH, HBK, nor Brock had/have IT to basically carry the company by themselves to another boom. HBK was in his prime around 96-97, but the company was nearing backruptcy or barely holding up. HHH's prime, arguably, was 99-00 but some can say that it was HIS TIME 2002-04. But where did the company go during that time?

So i think it really had to do when Rock left in 2002, SCSA left, and how Vince portrayed the WCW/ECW to the WWE fans/public. What makes it so bad, is that those same WCW/ECW stars that they pretty much squashed were the most popular ones in the company (Booker T, RVD, DDP, etc.) Vince, fuck your ego, think of your fucking business you jackass lol. People say that Vince is a genius. I think he gets WAY too much credit than he deserves. Sure, he owns the company and made Austin look like the best thing since Hogan, but don't think that Vince was behind ALL the golden stuff in the attitude era. If anything, Eric Bischoff, as much as people shit on him, should get more credit than he deserves. He almost put a company that has been around for about a CENTURY to bankruptcy in a matter of how many years???

Lol lets break down some of Vince's public ideas, and then guys on the booking such as Russo:

XFL: Vince
The Rock: Russo
Bodybuilding Federation: Vince
Austin/Vince angle: Booking
.
.
.
I could keep going, but i'm not going to.

[dablackguy]

Brock winning the title from The Rock was fucking awesome!

I won't argue how cool the way it went down was... but hindsight being what it was, can you say he was truly ready?

[Kalyx triaD]

I see what you mean, but his feud with Big Show (Casket Match FTW) and Kurt Angle (Milk!) made for good TV. He was a hero worth rooting for and an unstoppable villain - those combined traits don't grow on trees.

[94 SVT Cobra]

I lost faith on 01/26/07. that was the night i couldnt do it anymore. it was truly too much nonsense to me. i couldnt suspend the disbeliefe cause i was in disbelife of how little i could suspend with such crap/

[NeanderCarl]

Batista - Kennedy feud wasn't doing it for you?

[Y2Ant]

I'd have to agree with DrA and say April 2002.

[Pardeep 619]

I personally think that creatively the company has never been the same since Eddie Guerrero died. 2005 was such an underrated year creatively up until he died.

[BobBitchen]

The finger poke of doom.

[Londoner]

I turned Smackdown on last week, I saw Khali in the ring with some big chick kissing her, I turned Smackdown off, Ive lost all hope.

I feel that way everytime i turn smackdown on these days. This is the least i've ever cared about WWE as a whole, which is abit sad to admit. I would say it started to really suck after 2005.

[The Optimist]

WrestleMania 20 was the ending point, for me anyway.

Lesnar left and WWE had just started to go more "Hollywood".

I feel Lesnar leaving was THE point that everything went south. He was clearly the future of the company. Afterward they had to scramble for someone to take his place, first Orton, then Cena and neither could get to Lesnar's level with the overall audience.This is very close to being correct. I still think the next year or so was entertaining. Evolution was still going on for a while and Cena had yet to be invincible vanilla.

Funny sidebar: The wikipedia page for Wrestlemania 20 and 21 have the same picture of Triple H as World Heavyweight Champion.

[Mr. Nerfect]

A big part of it, in my belief, was Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn in 2001. Yes, it was shocking, and really compelling, but he never had a rival to really push him to the limits. His paranoia made sense, but his new pussy approach didn't. I think that hurt more than what people give it credit for.

Also, in regards to 2001, Booker T and Shane McMahon turning heel was a silly move. Austin was a top heel, and the fans were ready to embrace the WCW Champion as a hero who could hang with him. But no, they ended up on the same side of the alignment coin.

I'd also like to randomly say that I still believe that WrestleMania X-8 should have featured Chris Jericho vs. Rob Van Dam in the main event for the WWF Unidisputed Championship, with Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock and Triple H teaming up to face the nWo in a sub-main event.

[Dorkchop]

I agree with Noid about Austin's heel turn. That's when it started, but there were still some pretty great things going on until about late 2004. There have been some pretty good moments in the past 4 years, but the majority of them are forgettable.

[Sting Fan]

Havent watched more than two minutes of Raw or SD in months now.

I just cant do it anymore, nothing there interests me at all. Its kinda sad really because I was an absolutely rabid fan back in the day. Shit before Eddie died I was considering traveling to Australia just to see a show live.

For me, even though I watched WWE for years after the whole HHH ruling Raw thing, that I think killed it a lot for me. HHH should have dropped the belt to RVD, I remember the RVD vs. HBK match that enver really was. What a feud that would have been. He should have dropped it to Kane, and he should defianlty have dropped it to Booker at WM.

That debacle hurt my enjoyment of WWE hugely, tbh though I think the deaths of Eddie and Benoit destroyed the last of my true interest in Wrestling. They were the last two sort of beacons of hope to me in the WWE and I have never really got behind anyone to the same level since.

[Jeritron]

Yea that was a time period where they were invested in two things...Brock Lesnar, and HHH. After the attitude era ended and Rock and Austin left, they were building Brock and Trips up huge as the rookie and the verteran.

It resulted in the burial of a handful of potential new stars the crowd were responding to on Raw.
Brock left and that was a waste as well.
The two never even had the big payoff.

The WWE has been in a rut ever since

[Tb1]

Mid '03. Rock/Austin retiring.

[DaVe]

How do you define 'started to suck'? When it was going downhill after its peak? If that is the case, I'd say that was when Austin got 'hit' in late 99. I'm the biggest Taker and Austin mark in existence (behind Gohan3k), and just didn't find the fascination that I had with 97-99, after Taker and Austin went on hiatus.

Of course, the WWF was still pretty freaking great for many years after that, but the ratings dropped off slightly after 99, and hence I'd say that is when it began the downhill trend.

2000 and 01 were all great years, though, like I said. 02 into 06 had some great times. In fact, during the whole Cena-Edge that started off 2006, ratings for those few months were the highest that they'd been since 2002/1.

When it really began to suck was after 06: everything in the WWE lost its attitude. New, clean image for the shows: weak new themes for RAW and ECW, weak new intros for all shows, weak new logos, and then there is stuff like the new-look Cell, and ultimately the current PG image.

[Good Ol JG]

Something I haven't seen anyone talk much about on this thread are titles. I remember when I was a kid and titles meant something. If you could see a title change hands, it was special. Now, it's routine. The IC title got to where it was being traded every 2 weeks, the world titles change with such frequency that unless you're an already big name (ie Triple H) or you're given the rare long reign (Cena, JBL, etc) then your run at the top seemingly means nothing. Then you see guys who the fans like a lot, such as Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, CM Punk being world champion at a certain point but they are booked so poorly that they come across as not deserving of the belt. I remember at WM20, when Benoit and Guerrero left the show s the champs, I thought that the days of the titles meaning something was back. Then on Raw you had benoit curtain jerking against Rob Conway or someone and the main event revolved around whatever gimmick match Triple H and Shawn Michaels were having this month.

And it's not just the world titles, look at the absolute lack of a tag team division. Nowadays we get 2 random guys thrown together or two main eventers in a fued and they're given tag title pushes. I remember actual teams that actual storylines revolved around and i miss those days. When two random guys can beat your tag team champions, what's that say about your tag titles? When you book a guy to beat your tag team champions SINGLE HANDEDLY, what's that say for your tag team titles? They become worthless props, just like every other belt in the WWE at this point. Why even have champions if you're not going to use them properly?

I guess it's not necessarily a starting point of the downfall, but the title situation has probably killed my love for the business as much as anything else over the last 10 years or so.

[Savio]

If a brandspilt was ended between Raw and Smackdown leaving ECW for the new guys that would help. You would only have to create storylines for one show and their is not an over abundance of main eventers anymore. I mean they can't even come up with one decent storyline for one show now.