QUESTION - Was Hulk Hogan more of a "team player" than Stone Cold Steve Austin?

[Heyman]

QUESTION - Was Hulk Hogan more of a "team player" than Stone Cold Steve Austin?

Consider the following:

Hogan (clean jobs done after becoming a mega-star).

-Ultimate Warrior
-Bill Goldberg
-The Rock
-Triple H
-Kurt Angle
-Undertaker
-Brock Lesnar (a complete shit kicking).

Steve Austin (clean jobs done after becoming a mega-star...so this doesn't include his losses to Bret Hart).

-Mankind (Summerslam 99'....triple threat match)
-Triple H (2001 No Way Out)
-Kurt Angle (2001 No Mercy)
-The Rock (Wrestlemania 19).

-Hulk Hogan has never walked out on a company while under contract....Austin has (due to unhappiness over the direction of his character)

-Just as Hulk Hogan has politick'd backstage, so has SCSA. Austin refused to job to HHH at Summerslam 99' (and as result, Foley was thrown in there to make it a triple threat...and Austin jobbed to him).


ALL of Hogan's losses (listed above) were completely clean jobs (with no after affects...or excuses). Austin's jobs however (even when clean), could be justified.

-Austin's job to Mankind at Summerslam 99', was done only after Austin had dominated the match (and had pretty much destroyed HHH until Mankind hit an unseen/flukey double arm DDT).

-Austin's job to HHH (at No Mercy 2001) was done in such a way, that both men simultaneously knocked each other out (and HHH's arm just so happened to be over Austin's body). During that match, Austin also dominated for the most part....and scored the 1st pinfall victory.

-Austin's job to Angle was explained by the fact that he didn't know it was illegal to tap out with his left hand. Austin defeated Angle two weeks later on RAW.

-Austin's job to The Rock at WM-19 was explained by the fact that Austin's neck and knees were severely injured (and that he had stayed up the night before in the hospital getting pain medication. As result, Austin was fired bu Bischoff).


Hogan may not have been anywhere near the "team player" that guys like Kane, Foley, and Eddie Guerrero (RIP) were, but how was Steve Austin any different? (and if not....WORSE?!).

Both Austin and Hogan were extremely selective as to who they jobbed to.

In fact - Austin's final job to The Rock was done to a guy that wasn't going to be in the business any longer

Granted - Austin was a far better wrestler and worker than Hogan, but does this have much to do with being a team player?

In fact - guys like Undertaker and Triple H (two people that have been criticisized heavily in yester-year....and at present), have done more CLEAN and "relevant" jobs than Austin.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG.

Austin is my favourite wrestler and superstar of all-time. However.....does what I say not have merit? You decide.

[BigDaddyCool]

Question, does Hogan walking out of WCW after that work shoot thing with Jeff Jarrett and Russo count?

It should also be noted that Hogan always fought to make sure his friends had jobs (to him). Austin reportedly is friends with Funki and that is why Funki has kept his job, that I don't really know of anyone else that Austin fights to keep employed.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, Austin is a wife beater, and Hogan...well Linda said he started beating her, but the kids take Hogan's side, that is a tough call. Hogan seems like he would be a cool guy to hang out with as long are you aren't gunning for his spot.

Austin on the other hand, he seems to come back just to destroy up and comers for no reason.

[Heyman]

The thing with Hogan, is that he literally got his ass handed to him throughout all of 2002 (which culminated in an absolute raping from Lesnar). Now obviously - a lot of these jobs were done well after the fact that it was established that Hogan was "passed his prime", but still...

The only two instances where I remember Austin being "physically dominated" was when...

A) Around the time when Kane was on the verge of taking off his mask (can't remember if it was before or after). After receiving a stunner, Kane sat up and chokeslammed Austin.

B) During the Goldberg/Batista feud, Batista cleared Austin out of the ring.

Other than those two instances, I can't seem to recall Austin getting "one-upped." As BDC mentioned, Austin has pretty much decimated any 'mid-carder' that his appeared on the same segment as him upon his returns.

I would be interested to know, for those that voted 'Austin is a bigger team player than Hogan, as to why you feel this way.

[KingofOldSchool]

Most of the guys Hogan laid down for was already established by that point.

And with the Warrior, Hogan had Bischoff bring in Warrior to WCW just so Hogan could get his win back.

He also agreed to drop the title to Goldberg only if he got to be the one to end his streak, but unfortunately for him...Nash beat him to it.

In the end Hogan refused to put over guys that he should have, like Hart, Hennig, etc.

Also, I don't remember Hogan jobbing to Triple H clean. Plus let's not forget Hogan's debacle with both Orton and HBK.

Austin's problem with jobbing to Lesnar is that they wanted to do it unannounced on an episode of Raw. Austin wanted it to be a big PPV money match, I agree. He shouldn't really have walked out, but he stood his ground. I doubt anyone here has not at least thought of walking out on their job at least once for whatever reason.

I think Hogan is the worst offender because his many, many years of pulling shitty powerplays that only boost his own ego and self worth.

[KingofOldSchool]

Question, does Hogan walking out of WCW after that work shoot thing with Jeff Jarrett and Russo count?

It should also be noted that Hogan always fought to make sure his friends had jobs (to him). Austin reportedly is friends with Funki and that is why Funki has kept his job, that I don't really know of anyone else that Austin fights to keep employed.

Yeah Hogan "fighting" for his friends jobs led to the worst main event in Starrcade history. Plus Hogan surrounded himself with wrestlers who are no threat to his position. Well except for Savage back in the day, but you know how rocky their friendship was.

Austin on the other, the friends he does have in wrestling, for the most part didn't suck so bad that he had to politic to keep their job.

[Xero]

Politics don't ALWAYS prevail. I'm not saying Austin didn't, but there's an equal chance that this was just how he happened to be booked.

The only time I can think of problems with Austin had been after he was retired. There are MANY more known problems with Hogan than Austin.

[Heyman]

[quote=KingofOldSchool;2344247]Most of the guys Hogan laid down for was already established by that point.

Can you not say the same for Austin?

And with the Warrior, Hogan had Bischoff bring in Warrior to WCW just so Hogan could get his win back.

Is this just speculation on your part? I didn't follow WCW but did Hogan beat Warrior cleanly after this?

He also agreed to drop the title to Goldberg only if he got to be the one to end his streak, but unfortunately for him...Nash beat him to it.

Again....is this just speculation on your part?

In the end Hogan refused to put over guys that he should have, like Hart, Hennig, etc.

Again.....is this just speculation? Also - was Curt Hennig a big enough star to warrant Hogan jobbing to him? Another thing - Although Austin jobbed to Kurt Angle (No Mercy), couldn't you make a similar argument that Austin did that with the assumption that he'd beat Angle cleanly at a later date? (which happened during the PPV where Jericho beat Austin/Rock on the same night). Speaking of Jericho, Austin defeated Jericho cleanly a few weeks earlier....prior to Jericho's "heelish and non-clean" title victory.

Also, I don't remember Hogan jobbing to Triple H clean. Plus let's not forget Hogan's debacle with both Orton and HBK.

Hogan jobbed to HHH and then admitted that he had no problem shaking hands with the better man. HHH and Hogan then did 'poses' together (this was after Hogan had defeated HHH at Backlash).

Hogan didn't job to Orton and HBK because Hogan had felt that he had already given enough back to the business (and based on the evidence presented, perhaps a case can be made here). Having said that - I don't deny the fact that Hogan was selfish...he was/is. However - how is Austin any different? (and if not, worse?).

Austin's problem with jobbing to Lesnar is that they wanted to do it unannounced on an episode of Raw. Austin wanted it to be a big PPV money match, I agree. He shouldn't really have walked out, but he stood his ground. I doubt anyone here has not at least thought of walking out on their job at least once for whatever reason.

I agree here, and Austin had every right to be upset and disagree. However - Austin STILL walked out (and in effect, never did the job to Lesner at a PPV).

I think Hogan is the worst offender because his many, many years of pulling shitty powerplays that only boost his own ego and self worth.

Perhaps - but the fact of the matter is that Hogan *did* job to Warrior during his peak (although granted...Warrior was "established", but since when did Austin do clean jobs to anyone that wasn't established?). Randy Savage and Bret Hart were also given main-event title shots at Wrestlemania during Hulk Hogan's presence.

Austin on the other hand, was in the main-event (and winner) of 3 out of 4 straight Mania's (1998, 1999, 2001. 2000 was the only one that Austin missed due to injury).

[Destor]

With the exception on one of your clean jobs hogan did were done WAY after his prime. Austin wins.

[AKin3D]

The only thing I can think of right now is at less Austin had more suport and respect as a person from all levels of the locker room and not just becuase he was Stone Cold. I never really heard that for Hogan.

[Heyman]

With the exception on one of your clean jobs hogan did were done WAY after his prime. Austin wins.

Since Hogan was billed as a top star in WCW (even in his old age), I consider his job to Goldberg an "in prime" defeat.

Let me ask you this: What jobs has Austin done? (outside of his prime?).

Having said that - I think the above poster makes a good point (i.e. "Austin had the respect of the lockerroom while Hogan...not so much"). However - perhaps this was largely due to the fact that Austin was a very respectable wrestler....while Hogan was extremely sub-par. Even when Austin was winning, he could still make other wrestlers look good (not to the extent of an HBK or Bret Hart....but still).

[Destor]

Hogan jobbing to Goldberg wasn't in his prime. I'm not even gonna entertain that thought.

Austin didn't really wrestle outside of his prime though, other than his return match with the Rock @ WM19. So one.

[Heyman]

Hogan jobbing to Goldberg wasn't in his prime. I'm not even gonna entertain that thought.



Age wise? Hogan was past his prime. The way WCW was pushing Hogan however (as far as I know)...Hogan was billed as being very much in his prime.

Think of it this way - the physical peak for male athletes is usually between the ages of 28-32 (give or take 1-2 years in either direction).

Triple H is currently 39 years old. If HHH does a clean job to someone, does it count as him being "passed his prime"....or does it not matter since HHH is still billed as a "main-event" guy?

[Destor]

Making a guy your top star does not = prime. Being at the peak of your career = prime.

That was the late 80's early 90's for the Hulkster.

[Jeritron]

What you have here is a clever arrangement of the facts. You drive an interesting argument, and it could be persuasive for someone not familiar with the whole deal.
Unfortunately, it isn't accurate. At the very least, it is biased and has major ommissions of serious elements.
I have read books on it, and followed this shit for years. This portrayal doesn't pain a full picture, and is obviously working in favor of Hogan.

Austin beats Hogan easily in this department. By miles.

Also, listing meaningful jobs doesn't have any bearing, since Hogan stayed in his top spot for 20 years, while Austin only was for 5 years, IF THAT. More accurately it would be about 3 or 4. Perhaps even less if you don't count lenghty injury time.
Hogan did everything in his power at whatever cost to hold on to over the course of three decades in two promotions.
He knew when his time was up, and got worse about his ego.
Austin knew his time was up, and bowed out.
You cleverly danced around that major factor.

[Innovator]

Austin also didn't have the opportunity to work after his peak, due to injuries. He didn't have the chance to pave the way for some other guys.

Considering Austin and Kennedy talk once a week and go over matches, thats more than Hogan would ever do. Hogan wouldn't even return a 1-2-3 to Shawn...post hip replacement.

[Jeritron]

It's just a moot point. Knowing some of the shit Hogan's pulled, and the fact that Hogan was on top for 20 years to Austin's 3 years. Hogan's STILL all about his spot. Even though he's not active and occupying a spot, he maintains it when he is. The guy comes back to squash people.
His idea of a fitting send off for Flair was to squash him and then let him celebrate with him.
It's not even an argument.

[SuperSlim]

[QUOTE]
Perhaps - but the fact of the matter is that Hogan *did* job to Warrior during his peak (although granted...Warrior was "established", but since when did Austin do clean jobs to anyone that wasn't established?). Randy Savage and Bret Hart were also given main-event title shots at Wrestlemania during Hulk Hogan's presence.


Are you serious?

Now my memory is a bit fuzzy on the reasonings behind the whole Savage thing but with Bret... you have got to be kidding mentioning that as something to give Hogan credit for... the only thing you can give Hogan credit for in the Hart main event is stealing the spot light.

Yoko had the best match of his career probably. Hart and Yoko had an excellent main event... for the size and abilities of Yokozuna and Yoko came out on top as the world champ. Only for Hogan to come out, with a bandaged up eye, even after competing earlier on the card, and challenged Yoko to a match and beat him in 30 seconds to claim the world title.

So yeah Hart had the spotlight but it was quickly ripped from him by that egotistical Hogan. Bret fought Yoko and couldn't win. Hogan came in with one god eye and won in 30 seconds.

Hogan only did that for Hogan. So yeah Hogan still held the spotlight and stole thunder from Bret that night so you can't give any credit to Hogan for "sharing" the main event of WrestleMania that year.

But I do remember also that Hogan played quite a role in Savage's wrestlemania main event as well. So pretty much... between WrestleMania 1-9... it all featured Hogan in the main event in one way or another.

[DaVe]

What?

Why is this even a question. The poll results says it all.

[Juan]

Need more reasons to hate Hulk Hogan?

http://www.tpww.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75491

[The Franchise]

Austin by such a large margin. Added to the one's listed, Austin took Angle, Benoit and Jericho to the next level in 2001.

Also for that whole Austin walking out because he didn't want to job to Lesnar fiasco. The idiot writers wanted to job Austin to Lesnar on a RAW with no build-up. Can you not understand why this would piss off Steve Austin? That should be a fucking WrestleMania main-event or at least a PPV one. It was bad business and just plain stupid for everyone involved. He didn't not want to do the job, he didn't want to do it in such an unreasonable and pointless way. There's a difference between showing up to your sales job and refusing to sell things and showing up to your sale job and refusing to scrub the toilets.

Austin in less time has put over more wrestlers. Hogan may have more clean one-time jobs but Austin's feuds and matches with guys like Angle, Jericho, Benoit etc have done far, far more for their career. Also IIRC Austin wanted to work with Eddie in 2004 and have him go over clean too.

Anddd for that whole Taboo Tuesday 2005 thing... seriously... Stone Cold who had potentially the perfect last match with Rock, coming out of retirement to be in a comedy match in possibly the least-watched PPV of the year, against the COACH? Again, there is being asked to be a team-player and there is plain stupidity.

[Heyman]

Austin knew his time was up, and bowed out.
You cleverly danced around that major factor.

Actually - Austin didn't "bow out" because he knew his time was up. Austin bowed up because his body and neck could no longer take the physical pounding. Austin's retirement was forced.

The only thing I've cleverly danced around, is your mom at the local strip joint. ;)

[The Franchise]

Honestly, there was no reason for Austin to be losing much until late 2001. He was the top guy and the fans are apeshit for him. And he did job in 2001. The only real issue with Austin seems to be 2002 and onwards.

[Heyman]

Making a guy your top star does not = prime. Being at the peak of your career = prime.

That was the late 80's early 90's for the Hulkster.

Point taken...but here's two things to consider:

1) Hogan was still way over with the fans and was garnering tremendous heel heat from the fans.

2) A victory over Hogan still had tremendous meaning. Since Hogan was being pushed as a top star (and rarely did jobs), a victory over Hogan would mean instant credibility (for example - if someone were to beat a guy like Ric Flair or Sgt. Slaughter nowadays, it wouldn't mean as much since both men are "obviously" considered to be 'past their prime'....and no longer would get the same spots on the card).

I understand your viewpoint, but we seem to be arguing two different things.

[The Franchise]

Austin on the other hand, he seems to come back just to destroy up and comers for no reason.

That's because the WWE is desperate for ratings and they know Austin isn't in any shape to be in a feud. So they bring him back for one-time outings to get a temporary rating boosts at the expense of the younger guys. Austin accepting this despite full-well knowing that it is going to help bury the up and comers is his fault, that is for sure.

[The Franchise]

I like how Hogan's "main-event" and onwards career is like three times the size of Austins yet he only has a few more jobs under his belt.

[Heyman]

Honestly, there was no reason for Austin to be losing much until late 2001. He was the top guy and the fans are apeshit for him. And he did job in 2001. The only real issue with Austin seems to be 2002 and onwards.

But by that logic, you can say the same thing for Hogan. Hogan was drawing like CRAZY back in the day....and perhaps there was no reason for him to be losing. Even with that being said, Randy Savage and Ultimate Warrior BOTH had World title victories...at Wrestlemania....under Hogan's peak (one of which, was a clean job from Hogan himself).

[The Franchise]

But everyone has to first establish themselves by winnings lots, which both Hogan and Austin did. This should take at least 2-3 years for the fans to really think you are a legit main-event threat at any given time. That's why guys like Michaels and Orton despite losing lots could always be put into a title match and be seen as a serious threat. The difference is that Hogan kept on being unstoppable well beyond him reaching this point. Austin did too, but not nearly as long. Honestly if Stone Cold didn't have his injury issue and lets say he wrestled full-time until like 2008, I really, really think we would have seen him lose World Title matches at Wrestlemania to Brock Lesnar and John Cena. Maybe even Randy Orton.

[Heyman]

Austin by such a large margin. Added to the one's listed, Austin took Angle, Benoit and Jericho to the next level in 2001.



There is absolutely no question that Austin was a FAR better wrestler than Hogan. Just for the record, Austin is my favourite wrestler of all-time. However, I am just commenting on what I see.

Yes - Austin made Angle, Benoit, and Jericho look good, but did he really put them in a position (ultimately) where any of those men looked superior to him in the long run? (or atleast for an extended period of time?). In my opinion - no.

-While Benoit dominated Austin in a few of their matches, Austin then defeated both Jericho and Benoit in a triple threat (in the storyline, it was then billed that Austin put Benoit out for a year).

-Jericho looked good against Austin a few times, but was also decimated by Austin shortly after Austin turned face (after the alliance angle). At the PPV where Jericho became undisputed champion, his victory over Austin was very "flukey."

-Angle defeated Austin, but it was under the assumption that Austin didn't know that tapping out with your left had was legit. Two weeks later, Austin regained his title. Upon turning face, Austin defeated Angle CLEANLY at the PPV where Jericho became Undisputed Champion.


(speaking of Jericho, notice how The Rock jobbed almost 4-5 times to Jericho?!?).

In conclusion - YES...Austin DID make Jericho, Angle, and Benoit look good but in the end....Austin was still made to look superior (via wins or situations, etc.).

When Warrior defeated Hogan, there was no immediate rematch. Warrior flopped due to Warrior's own definicies. When Goldberg beat Hogan, it was as clean a victory as one can have (compare Bret's job to HBK at WM-12 where Bret was "distracted").

[Heyman]

[quote=Heyman;2344297]

Are you serious?

Now my memory is a bit fuzzy on the reasonings behind the whole Savage thing but with Bret... you have got to be kidding mentioning that as something to give Hogan credit for... the only thing you can give Hogan credit for in the Hart main event is stealing the spot light.



I wasn't trying to imply that by Hogan "allowed" Warrior and Savage to have their moments (ultimately, it's creative's decision to decide who does what). What I am saying however, is that Hogan didn't seem to put up too much of a fuss. Warrior and Savage were both given legit opportunities to be as big (or bigger) than Hogan.

Perhaps the Bret Hart example was not a good one but again......who's to say that Hogan was BEHIND the whole thing? (as opposed to it just being a decision that was made by Creative).

Hell - Austin beat Kane the day after Kane won his 1st world title. Should we hold that against Austin?....or accept the fact that perhaps creative was behind that? (in light of the fact that Austin was such a huge star and that perhaps it was better for business).

[Heyman]

. The difference is that Hogan kept on being unstoppable well beyond him reaching this point. Austin did too, but not nearly as long. Honestly if Stone Cold didn't have his injury issue and lets say he wrestled full-time until like 2008, I really, really think we would have seen him lose World Title matches at Wrestlemania to Brock Lesnar and John Cena. Maybe even Randy Orton.

A few things:

A) Do we know for a fact if Hogan being "unstoppable" was due to his backstage politics or Creative's wishes? To me? I see a guy...while being selective in his jobs....actually DID do jobs at the right times. In this regard, I really don't consider him to be different than guys like HHH and Undertaker.

B) You are just speculating as it relates to Austin (i.e. his willingness to do future jobs)

C) I do NOT blame Austin whatsover in being pissed at the fact that he was asked to job to Lesnar on RAW...or fight against Coach at Taboo Tuesday, etc. However - Austin still chose.....to walk out. Something that Hulk Hogan never did. In walking out, Austin put his own interests in front of the company's. Instead - Austin could have voiced his disapproval (to Vince), and then done the job to Lesnar at a certain PPV. He didn't.

[Heyman]

The only time I can think of problems with Austin had been after he was retired. There are MANY more known problems with Hogan than Austin.

I was wondering if you could further elaborate on this subject? I look at Hogan, and I honestly can't see how he was any "worse" than guys like Undertaker, Triple H, and yes...Austin.

I see a guy that was selective in his jobs (in order to prevent tarnishing his image too much....a la Mick Foley...a la Kane, etc.), but also jobbed at the right times (just like HHH and Taker). I just don't see this with Austin. The ONLY time where he jobbed cleanly (and didn't immediately "one up" the guy that beat him), was when he lost to The Rock at Wrestlemania 19.

Even when Austin and Lesnar started their storyline tension, I can't recall very many scenario's where Lesnar was easily getting the better of Austin.

[Xero]

You're looking at this from only one angle, that everything they've done has been the result of them pulling strings.

I go back to my suggestion that Austin may have just been going with what was booked of him. He, as well as Hogan, were Vince's pet projects, and rightfully so.

However, Hogan used his politics to the point that what he did was common knowledge and was bad for the business on a regular basis. Austin, not so much. Again, not saying he didn't, because I'm sure there are at least a few instances of it, but it was no where near the length Hogan took it.

I think it's likely in Austin's case that it was more about Vince booking it. Remember, during pretty much Austin's entire main event run Vince was directly involved with Austin in storylines and it was best for his (Vince's) character if Austin stayed strong and dominated.

[NeanderCarl]

I think the difference is that Hogan would lie and backstab, tell you one thing to your face and then say another behind your back.

Austin, for all his faults, by most accounts would tell you directly to your face what his problem was and why.

[NeanderCarl]

As for Austin walking out, I thought it had been established that he walked out because of health and anxiety issues.

For all he said about the 'direction of his character' and the Lesnar job proposal, he has since admitted that even though those factors contributed, the reason he walked out was because his health was seriously failing due to his neck injury (and that's why he only ever wrestled one proper wrestling match after the walk out) and he was just too proud to admit it at the time.

[Jeritron]

Hogan jobbing to Goldberg was in his best interest. Same with most of the others. Everything he's done is in the interest of himself

[Gertner]

Hogan jobbed a couple times to Kidman, not clean, but I've never seen Austin job to any undercard guy.

[Heyman]

Hogan jobbing to Goldberg was in his best interest. Same with most of the others. Everything he's done is in the interest of himself


How so?

By that logic, how are some of Austin's jobs (i.e. jobbing to HHH at No Way Out 01', jobbing to Angle at No Mercy 01'), any different?

One could say that Austin willingly jobbed to HHH (with an asteriks attached), knowing that he would become champ at Wrestlemania anyway (with HHH playing "second fiddle" once Austin-Vince-HHH got together).

One could say that Austin willingly jobbed to Angle (with an asteriks attached), so that he could defeat Angle a short time later (Austin defeated Angle twice after this.....one time cleanly).

[Gerard]

Need more reasons to hate Hulk Hogan?

http://www.tpww.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75491

If you were to take that list as gospel its pretty much implying hogan had creative control from day one, which i very much doubt.

[Destor]

What you have here is a clever arrangement of the facts. You drive an interesting argument, and it could be persuasive for someone not familiar with the whole deal.
Unfortunately, it isn't accurate. At the very least, it is biased and has major ommissions of serious elements.
I have read books on it, and followed this shit for years. This portrayal doesn't pain a full picture, and is obviously working in favor of Hogan.

Austin beats Hogan easily in this department. By miles.

Also, listing meaningful jobs doesn't have any bearing, since Hogan stayed in his top spot for 20 years, while Austin only was for 5 years, IF THAT. More accurately it would be about 3 or 4. Perhaps even less if you don't count lenghty injury time.
Hogan did everything in his power at whatever cost to hold on to over the course of three decades in two promotions.
He knew when his time was up, and got worse about his ego.
Austin knew his time was up, and bowed out.
You cleverly danced around that major factor.This pretty much ends the conversation. Austin had almost as many clean jobs in 1/4 the time it took Hogan to get there. And on top of that most of them came during his last WWF run. It really is a rediculous argument.

Lot's of respect for ya Heyman, but your argument is bogus.

[The Franchise]

Added to that Austin never did any of the shit like Starrcade 97 or Wrestlemania 9 that Hogan did. And arguably Hogan's biggest job ever to Warrior at WM 6 was barely a clean job. The guy kicked out at 3.00000001 AND didn't he expect Warrior to job back to him? I know it happened in WCW in like 98.

[The Franchise]

I see what Heyman is saying though, and Austin wasn't that great of a team player (compared to someone like Rock, Foley, Angle) but I still think Hogan was WAY worse.

[NeanderCarl]

Added to that Austin never did any of the shit like Starrcade 97 or Wrestlemania 9 that Hogan did. And arguably Hogan's biggest job ever to Warrior at WM 6 was barely a clean job. The guy kicked out at 3.00000001 AND didn't he expect Warrior to job back to him? I know it happened in WCW in like 98.

Yes, the plan from day one was for Hogan to win the belt back from Warrior at WrestleMania 7 in front of 100,000+ fans at the LA Memorial Coliseum.

Warrior's reign was cut short due to falling figures, and the Iraq hostilities kicked off, and the marketing genius Vince McMahon instead saw Hogan beat Slaughter for the title at WrestleMania 7 in front of... 16,000 fans at the LA Sports Arena.

[Heyman]

I see what Heyman is saying though, and Austin wasn't that great of a team player (compared to someone like Rock, Foley, Angle) but I still think Hogan was WAY worse.

I think as a whole, I will "agree to disagree" with a lot of posters in this thread.

To be honest however - I didn't follow Hogan's career nearly as much as Austin's (during his peak).

I also don't think Hogan "was on top" for 20 years (Hogan was top star between the years of 1984-1999....many times at which he took long sabbaticals, only made guest appearances, or wasn't even the champ).

Regardless however - I still think that Hogan, much like a LOT of other wrestlers, was selective as to who he jobbed to. Many people don't realize that there's a danger in jobbing too much (i.e. Foley, Kane). After awhile, if you do too many jobs....people can stop taking you seriously as a legit guy. Perhaps there's a reason why guys like HHH, Taker, and Hogan, chose to be selective in jobbing.

Having said that - I think people are now aware of how I feel about Austin regarding this issue. I'll leave it at that.....as I think the facts speak for themselves.

[Theo Dious]

I want to take issue with the notion of Hogan/Warrior at Wrestlemania being a "clean job." The match was one of the most meticulously choreographed in history, including an ending that saw Hogan kick out of Warrior's splash a mere fraction of a second late. Then, by his own admission (see his book, which I bought for a dollar for the laughs it was sure to contain) he insisted on handing the belt over (against the established plan) to replace Warrior's moment of victory with Hogan's moment of passing the torch.

As for Hogan's graceful act of jobbing to Goldberg... please. There was no way to avoid it at that point. Hogan's options at that point were either to do the fucking job or walk out of the company at a point where his popularity was seriously waning. At that point doing the job was the smart career move.

I'm also going to take issue with Hogan jobbing clean to Undertaker. The first time around, he dropped the belt in a terribly non-clean manner after completely no-selling what was being put over as one of the deadliest finishers on the market, only to win the belt back a week later. Ten years later, he jobbed the Undisputed Title after a pathetic and undeserved reign, in a match that saw him dead-weight a chokeslam.

Speaking of Hogan's undisputed title reign, how exactly are we supposed to praise Hogan for a job to HHH that I can't even remember, considering said title reign?

AND, as far as Angle and Lesnar go, Hogan was clearly building up credit at that point. Those two are more than negated by his treatment of his programs with Orton and HBM.

[DaVe]

Having said that - I think people are now aware of how I feel about Austin regarding this issue. I'll leave it at that.....as I think the facts speak for themselves.

We already were aware of it one post in... and clearly, the majority of us disagree.

[Heyman]

I want to take issue with the notion of Hogan/Warrior at Wrestlemania being a "clean job." The match was one of the most meticulously choreographed in history, including an ending that saw Hogan kick out of Warrior's splash a mere fraction of a second late. Then, by his own admission (see his book, which I bought for a dollar for the laughs it was sure to contain) he insisted on handing the belt over (against the established plan) to replace Warrior's moment of victory with Hogan's moment of passing the torch.

As for Hogan's graceful act of jobbing to Goldberg... please. There was no way to avoid it at that point. Hogan's options at that point were either to do the fucking job or walk out of the company at a point where his popularity was seriously waning. At that point doing the job was the smart career move.

I'm also going to take issue with Hogan jobbing clean to Undertaker. The first time around, he dropped the belt in a terribly non-clean manner after completely no-selling what was being put over as one of the deadliest finishers on the market, only to win the belt back a week later. Ten years later, he jobbed the Undisputed Title after a pathetic and undeserved reign, in a match that saw him dead-weight a chokeslam.

Speaking of Hogan's undisputed title reign, how exactly are we supposed to praise Hogan for a job to HHH that I can't even remember, considering said title reign?

AND, as far as Angle and Lesnar go, Hogan was clearly building up credit at that point. Those two are more than negated by his treatment of his programs with Orton and HBM.

That's fine and all.....but seriously. Why be THAT critical of Hogan, and fail to acknowledge anything that Austin did....or didn't do?

[Heyman]

You're looking at this from only one angle, that everything they've done has been the result of them pulling strings.

I go back to my suggestion that Austin may have just been going with what was booked of him. He, as well as Hogan, were Vince's pet projects, and rightfully so.

However, Hogan used his politics to the point that what he did was common knowledge and was bad for the business on a regular basis. Austin, not so much. Again, not saying he didn't, because I'm sure there are at least a few instances of it, but it was no where near the length Hogan took it.

I think it's likely in Austin's case that it was more about Vince booking it. Remember, during pretty much Austin's entire main event run Vince was directly involved with Austin in storylines and it was best for his (Vince's) character if Austin stayed strong and dominated.

The biggest problem I have with what this post (and what most people are saying in this thread in defense of Austin....or in their criticism of Hogan), is that most of it is purely speculation.

I am only commenting on what *I* have seen....and from what *I* have seen...

A) Austin (justified or not), never made anyone else look superior to him (atleast for an extended time period).

B) Despite the time frame, Hogan still did far more clean and relevant jobs (even to the point where he was decimated by Lesnar).

[Heyman]

Hogan jobbed a couple times to Kidman, not clean, but I've never seen Austin job to any undercard guy.

Excellent point:

When you take into account jobs that were done (of ANY kind...whether they be clean or non-clean, take a look at some of the jobs that certain superstar wrestlers did to complete 'jabronie's'

-Hogan jobbed to Kidman

-HHH jobbed to Godfather, Jeff Hardy (when Hardy actually was a gay lesbian jobber back in 01')

-The Rock jobbed to Hurricane

-Maven threw Undertaker out of the Rumble. Last year, Taker basically opened his mouth and let Kali deposit his semen (i.e. Kali defeated Taker and even pinned him with the foot on his chest).

-Ric Flair was defeated by the old manager of Three Count (Ricardo? I can't remember his name...the gay guy...also a former manager of Billy/Chuck)

Which 'jabronie' got a victory over Austin?

None! (unless you consider Vince and Shane McMahon to be jabronie's). One time - Austin actually refused to be involved in an angle with Jeff Jarret since he felt that Jarret was not a big enough star. Austin even refused to have a MATCH with him.

[Juan]

Say what you want about Austin, but I will never consider Hogan to be a "team player"

[Heyman]

Say what you want about Austin, but I will never consider Hogan to be a "team player"

Neither will I....nor should anyone else.

However - based on what the world has seen (and minus the speculation and rumours), results would indicate that Austin is even less of a team player.

[Xero]

The biggest problem I have with what this post (and what most people are saying in this thread in defense of Austin....or in their criticism of Hogan), is that most of it is purely speculation.

I am only commenting on what *I* have seen....and from what *I* have seen...

A) Austin (justified or not), never made anyone else look superior to him (atleast for an extended time period).

B) Despite the time frame, Hogan still did far more clean and relevant jobs (even to the point where he was decimated by Lesnar).

What you have seen are matches in a predetermined sport booked by one man (for all intent and purpose). Unless you know for a fact Austin was behind the way he was booked in the matches (which you don't), your posts are pure "speculation" as well.

What you see on TV doesn't necessarily equate to what's happening backstage.

[Heyman]

What you see on TV doesn't necessarily equate to what's happening backstage.

BINGO!

Which makes it even more ridiculous, is that many posters on here are attacking Hogan while being far less critical of Austin (and mysteriously enough, bring up the argument that you brought forth to me, when one does the opposite and critique's Austin).

What you have seen are matches in a predetermined sport booked by one man (for all intent and purpose).IN-DEEEEED!

[NeanderCarl]

Don't forget that as soon as Austin broke his neck, he (and the company) always knew he was wrestling on borrowed time and wanted to milk his worth for all they could, while they could.

I'm sure they were booking Austin to keep him strong in the mid-term and never considering the long-term because Austin really didn't have one. So Austin turned down jobs to Billy Gunn, Owen Hart and Triple H? So what? Gunn was never going to get over so it would have been a wasted rub, Austin was bitter towards Owen because of the injury (maybe he was wrong to be, but his life was changed forever because of Owen, you can't judge him for how he felt) and Triple H had lukewarm heat and wasn't over as a top guy at all, and a single win over Austin wasn't going to *make* him. Those losses would have only served to hurt Austin without helping anybody else.

Prior to the neck injury, I think Austin actually lost the majority of his high profile matches. When he suffered the injury, and the end of his career was nigh whilst his popularity was the highest it had ever been, priorities had to change both for Austin and the WWF.

[NeanderCarl]

In Your House 8: Beware Of Dog- Savio Vega beat Steve Austin (clean, Strap match)
Survivor Series 1996 - Bret Hart beat Steve Austin (clean, pinfall)
In Your House 13: Final Four - Steve Austin first eliminated in four way WWE Title match
WrestleMania 13 - Bret Hart beat Steve Austin (clean, ref stoppage)
In Your House 15 : Cold Day in Hell - Undertaker beat Steve Austin (clean, pinfall)
King of the Ring 97 - Austin vs Michaels Double DQ
In Your House 16 Canadian Stampede - Owen Hart pinned Austin clean, Harts vs Americans 10 man tag

Not exactly the record of a guy afraid to put people over prior to the neck injury. You'd be hard pressed to find a run of results like that in Hogan's career at any point.

[NeanderCarl]

And I'm not conveniently omitting a bunch of wins from that list either. Austin won the Rumble in "controversial fashion" (ie. he didn't really), pinned midcard jobber Triple H and got a win over Marc Mero during that period, and of course won the King of the Ring. That's about it, though... there were a lot of PPVs on which he didn't even feature. (At SummerSlam '96, he got the duke over Yokozuna but that was a Free-For-All pre-show match)

[Zen v.W.o.]

In Your House 8: Beware Of Dog- Savio Vega beat Steve Austin (clean, Strap match)
Survivor Series 1996 - Bret Hart beat Steve Austin (clean, pinfall)
In Your House 13: Final Four - Steve Austin first eliminated in four way WWE Title match
WrestleMania 13 - Bret Hart beat Steve Austin (clean, ref stoppage)
In Your House 15 : Cold Day in Hell - Undertaker beat Steve Austin (clean, pinfall)
King of the Ring 97 - Austin vs Michaels Double DQ
In Your House 16 Canadian Stampede - Owen Hart pinned Austin clean, Harts vs Americans 10 man tag

Not exactly the record of a guy afraid to put people over prior to the neck injury. You'd be hard pressed to find a run of results like that in Hogan's career at any point.


Austin wasn't really putting people over there. Indeed, those guys were helping Austin ascend the ladder.
Austin was getting the main event rub.

[Heyman]

In Your House 8: Beware Of Dog- Savio Vega beat Steve Austin (clean, Strap match)
Survivor Series 1996 - Bret Hart beat Steve Austin (clean, pinfall)
In Your House 13: Final Four - Steve Austin first eliminated in four way WWE Title match
WrestleMania 13 - Bret Hart beat Steve Austin (clean, ref stoppage)
In Your House 15 : Cold Day in Hell - Undertaker beat Steve Austin (clean, pinfall)
King of the Ring 97 - Austin vs Michaels Double DQ
In Your House 16 Canadian Stampede - Owen Hart pinned Austin clean, Harts vs Americans 10 man tag

Not exactly the record of a guy afraid to put people over prior to the neck injury. You'd be hard pressed to find a run of results like that in Hogan's career at any point.

ALL of the matches you listed were BEFORE Austin became a mega-star (post Wrestlemania 14.....or even Summer of 97').

By that logic - Hogan's 'jobs' (pre-1984) should also be taken into account.

We can't pick and choose here.

[Jeritron]

Why? You picked and chose in the first post. You should judge Austin against a 4 year period of Hogan's career.
The entire argument is flawed on a fundamental level.

[NeanderCarl]

Austin wasn't really putting people over there. Indeed, those guys were helping Austin ascend the ladder.
Austin was getting the main event rub.

You don't get over by losing matches left, right and centre, whether it's against main event guys or not. Luckily, Austin had the freshest character in the company and was a superlative all-rounder, otherwise he would have been dead in the water.

Okay, he was still rising for most of that period and didn't have the "pull" he would enjoy later on, but Austin didn't put people over half-heartedly, he fully embraced it. Not the sign of a selfish worker. Plus, I'd say he was well on his way to being a star anyway by the end of 1996, wrestling main event and title matches with the likes of Bret Hart. A lot of people think Austin only became a player at WrestleMania XIV. In truth, he'd already "arrived" a long time before.

And I don't care whether you look at Hogan in his prime or Hogan in his rookie year, he never had a run of high profile losses like that.

[Theo Dious]

That's fine and all.....but seriously. Why be THAT critical of Hogan, and fail to acknowledge anything that Austin did....or didn't do?

The difference is that Hogan is known to have wielded his political clout like a spiked club. The degree to which Austin refused to look weak or inferior - what do we know about whose idea that was? Did Austin ever bring a guy into a company just to make himself look better? Is his career defined by his always getting what he wants? I can't think of a time when Austin's refusal to job or look weak did serious damage to the company, while Hogan's insistence on having THE spot was a weight around WWE's neck for quite some time, and made WCW's product pretty unwatchable for even longer. One can say that Austin's retirement was forced... while it may have been inevitable, he could have squeezed more time out and filled it with boring, lackluster matches. Just like, you know, Hogan did, continually putting himself out there numerous times when he wasn't up to a decent match.

[Theo Dious]

None! (unless you consider Vince and Shane McMahon to be jabronie's). One time - Austin actually refused to be involved in an angle with Jeff Jarret since he felt that Jarret was not a big enough star. Austin even refused to have a MATCH with him.

This to me is a point for Austin over Hogan. Austin refused to have the match. Hogan would have had the match and made sure that he looked like a god and Jarrett looked like a steaming pile of elephant shit. Which scenerio does Jarrett walk away better from?

[The Franchise]

I want to take issue with the notion of Hogan/Warrior at Wrestlemania being a "clean job." The match was one of the most meticulously choreographed in history, including an ending that saw Hogan kick out of Warrior's splash a mere fraction of a second late. Then, by his own admission (see his book, which I bought for a dollar for the laughs it was sure to contain) he insisted on handing the belt over (against the established plan) to replace Warrior's moment of victory with Hogan's moment of passing the torch.

Yeah. WrestleMania 6's finish was not about Warrior winning the belt, but about Hogan passing the torch and the camera even focuses on Hogan being taken away in that thing to the back more so than Warrior winning the title.

[Fox]

ALL of the matches you listed were BEFORE Austin became a mega-star (post Wrestlemania 14.....or even Summer of 97').

By that logic - Hogan's 'jobs' (pre-1984) should also be taken into account.

We can't pick and choose here.

Austin was only a mega-star from like 1998 to 2002. Four years. When SHOULD he have been doing these jobs, putting over younger stars? When he was the biggest thing in WWF history, selling more merchandise than anyone ever before, entangled in the hottest angle WWF had ever conceived? Is that when he should've been doing jobs to D'Lo Brown and X-Pac?

And don't forget that Austin was seriously injured and sidelined for part of those four years. His return needed to be dynamic, and he needed to kick ass. Putting over Rikishi would have been a terrible move. Putting over anyone would've been wrong. Austin was "the man."

The only time I think he should've put someone over and didn't was against Rob Van Dam at No Mercy 2001, and who knows if it was his call (probably not) or Vince's call (99.99% likely). Austin was a legend, and if he had had the kind of career that someone like Triple H or Undertaker have had, he probably would've done more jobs. But there's no way to know.

I've never heard stories of Austin politicking in the WWE. The only obvious time he did was when he left over a job to Brock Lesnar (which I agree with Austin on), and because he was sick and tired of the bullshit, including a wasted match against Scott Hall at WrestleMania. Hogan has a long and storied history of being a backstage politician, and it shows. I don't think there's any question here.

[Zen v.W.o.]

You don't get over by losing matches left, right and centre, whether it's against main event guys or not. Luckily, Austin had the freshest character in the company and was a superlative all-rounder, otherwise he would have been dead in the water.

Okay, he was still rising for most of that period and didn't have the "pull" he would enjoy later on, but Austin didn't put people over half-heartedly, he fully embraced it. Not the sign of a selfish worker. Plus, I'd say he was well on his way to being a star anyway by the end of 1996, wrestling main event and title matches with the likes of Bret Hart. A lot of people think Austin only became a player at WrestleMania XIV. In truth, he'd already "arrived" a long time before.

And I don't care whether you look at Hogan in his prime or Hogan in his rookie year, he never had a run of high profile losses like that.


Yes you do. Guys that know how to work superlatively always get over, or help get you over by the rub they give you. Austin got to work with the best all year long. Hart gave Austin the rub he needed to propel himself to stardom. Losing to Bret helped him in the long run, big time. And he lost every single time. WM 13 was his most important match. He lost, but he lost to Bret in a way that made him come out credible. Good workers know how to perform this. The MOST iconic image of Austin is blood streaming down his face as he grimaces in pain whilst in the sharpshooter. That changed things.

Austin got over by the way he fought, the guys who helped him by making him look credible and strong, and by that moment.

[Destor]

Yes you do. Guys that know how to work superlatively always get over, or help get you over by the rub they give you. Austin got to work with the best all year long. Hart gave Austin the rub he needed to propel himself to stardom. Losing to Bret helped him in the long run, big time. And he lost every single time. WM 13 was his most important match. He lost, but he lost to Bret in a way that made him come out credible. Good workers know how to perform this. The MOST iconic image of Austin is blood streaming down his face as he grimaces in pain whilst in the sharpshooter. That changed things.

Austin got over by the way he fought, the guys who helped him by making him look credible and strong, and by that moment.No, you don't get over by losing matches. Austins loss isn't what got him over, it was the fact he refused to lose. And that's hardly something you can do on a regular basis. Generally one guy has to be sacrificed for the benifit of the other.

[Zen v.W.o.]

No, you don't get over by losing matches. Austins loss isn't what got him over, it was the fact he refused to lose. And that's hardly something you can do on a regular basis. Generally one guy has to be sacrificed for the benifit of the other.

Uhh, yes you can. It depends on how the match is scripted and worked out. Hart/Austin both kept their momentum going because they planned out a stellar match, that was bound to help them both. Yeah, Austin kept losing, but not one loss destroyed his heat, because he came off as tough and wiling to take more.

Refusing to lose is fine, he still lost. And he never won. Remember that.

[Destor]

Again, your point is the loss got him over and it didn't. The loss had nothing to do with getting him over at all.

[Arashi Kage]

I can never understand those who are so fussy over Hogan and the issue of jobbing/putting over other guys. The Hulkster was awesome, and we (wrestling fans) didn't want to see him lose. Outside of the WM6 loss to Ultimate Warrior (cuz he was my childhood favorite) I hated seeing Hogan job. I remember when he lost to Goldberg my brother and I was so pissed (but then loved it when Nash beat Goldberg, and laughed our heads off in joy when Hogan poked Nash and won the title back, bwhahahahahh, awesome! and Nash my bro's favorite at that time).

Seriously, Hogan should never have had to job for the sake of putting over "a new generation" because there has never been anyone who could be the kind of icon that Hogan is. Granted, you can't always win, the title needs to change hands so that new storylines can be developed and play out. I'm not saying that Hogan should never lose or something along those lines, only that this notion of having to "put over" someone, "pass the torch", etc, is rubbish. Wrestling is past it's prime, and having the heros of yesterday job to the new guys of today isn't going to make the current product or crop of "talent" any better or more interesting.

It seems that the "attitude era" guys just seem to have this passionate hatred for Hogan, forget the backstage politics and behind the scenes BS, you don't have to respect the Hulkster, but remember that he entertained and made countless of us happy, which is what it's all about. :)

BTW, I don't think that anyone has mentioned that Scott Hall was supposed to beat Austin at WM18 but Austin made a fuss and had the outcome changed at the last minute - hence why that match didn't go too well.

[NeanderCarl]

I would say that to ask Steve Austin - the man who made Vince McMahon a billionaire and almost singlehandedly turned around their fortunes in the Monday Night Wars (before Rock, Foley, HHH etc got hot) - to job at the biggest show of the year to Scott Hall - a troublemaking alcoholic who would almost certainly be gone from the company by years end, the most expendable member of WWE's version oif the nWo, who had been at the top of WCW when they were hellbent on putting WWF out of business - was a huge slap in the face to 'Stone Cold'.

Damn right he should have said no.

[NeanderCarl]

Although, if Austin had simply accepted the match against Hogan in Toronto, he wouldn't have been in that position, but he point blank refused to work with Hulk... just as Hulk had done to him in 1995.