The first half of 2001

[Dorkchop]

I've been watching some Raws and Smackdowns from June, right before the King of the Ring, and everything I remember being awesome is still pretty damn awesome watching again 8-9 years later.

Edge, Christian, and Kurt Angle
Regal and Tajiri
Hardcore title still had some good matches
King of the Ring
Austin and Spike's two show feud
Angle vs Shane at KotR
Austin talking to Tajiri privately

The Invasion was the beginning of the end for WWE, but there were still some great moments over the next couple of years. You know, I find it really sad that we have to wait weeks, sometimes months, just to see some great moments. WWE is better now than they were four years ago, but they still have a long way to go. I miss enjoying every show.

I watched Saturn with Terri go on a double date with Malenko and some slut. Saturn was stupid at this point and the girl loved everything he was saying. Malenko was getting jealous so he says to his date "You know, pigeons wear lipstick to get out of parking tickets". Fucking awesome.


Post your favorite memories from any company.

[Dorkchop]

X-Pac is wearing overalls. Apparently it was 1993 in 2001.

[Dorkchop]

Ahahahaha. Vince talking to Austin about the hug. I wonder what DDP thought about the hugs.

[Lock Jaw]

Where are you getting these shows?

[XL]

Right, I'm gonna say something now and I'm not sure anyine is gonna have a clue what I'm talking about, but here goes...

Is it just me or in the early part of 2001 did the colour of WWE look more vibrant?

I really don't know how to explain it but I remember watching a few of the PPVs (Backlash & Judgment Day spring to mind) and the colour just looks different.

[Dorkchop]

Blackman, here: http://livewrestling-hd.com/

[Jeritron]

The first half of 2001 was absolutely fantastic. It may have been the peak of pro wrestling. Things looked great. All of the established stars of the attitude era were healthy and present, new and exciting stars like Jericho, Angle and _______ were gaining momentum and popularity, and began getting pushed. The tag team division was epic.

Looking at the WWF alone, everything about the roster and the company was in great shape, and there was plenty to look forward to. On it's own, without the added excitement of the upcoming influx of talent, there were lots of good things on the horizon.

To make matters better, the company had aquired ECW and all of their top talent, and the services of Paul Heyman.and they owned WCW and were slowly building to what was going to be the biggest storyline of all time. It was a wrestling fans wildest dream.
I was pumped just to see what was coming next for the WWF guys, let alone the arrival of Booker, DDP, Goldberg, Steiner, nWo, Lance Storm, RVD, any tons of others.

I'm not going to get into the second half of the year

[Jeritron]

The Two Man Power trip and their fueds with The Hardys, Taker & Kane, and Jericho & Benoit were awesome

[Dorkchop]

Kane was tagging with the Hardys and there was a really loud chant of "WE WANT KANE". Remember when Kane was an upper mid card guy instead of the guy who would job to Barry Horowitz?

I think Team Xtreme might have been the most popular thing that summer, but that's getting into the second half of the year. They were still mad over pretty much since 98.

[Jeritron]

I thought that summer would have been a good time for a Kane title run, since he was over as fuck. It was clear that they were looking to hold off on Jericho for a while, rightfully so. HHH and Benoit were hurt, and instead of rushing into the Invasion they should have built it slower and waited until they had it ironed out.

A Stone Cold/Kane fued would have been over as hell, and would have been a good oppurtunity to make Kane a champion for longer than 24 hours.

[NeanderCarl]

I'm not going to get into the second half of the year

Even the Invasion had some awesome moments.

[Jeritron]

Well, it certainly had some awesome matches, and there's no denying that the roster was also great. There were a few great moments, but there should have been dozens of really really great moments.

[NeanderCarl]

I'd consider the night of the Fred Blassie motivational speech/the return of the "old" Stone Cold as one of THE definitive WWF/WWE moments.

[Jeritron]

Well, there's no reason they couldn't have had that, and some of the other moments, while still handling the whole thing well.

[NeanderCarl]

Not arguing with you. But a lot of the golden moments of that period get washed away in the torrent of abuse the Invasion receives. While it was mishandled and ruined by the XFL, there were still some great moments that wrongly get overlooked.

I'd take Invasion era WWF over today's product any time.

[Juan]

^ word

[Theo Dious]

I'd take Invasion era WWF over today's product any time.

I'd take it over a lot of points in modern wrestling history. There were two pretty big reasons it was less cool than it could have been: first of all, you couldn't "hold off" the Invasion... what the hell was all that ex-WCW talent going to do? Sit on their asses and collect checks? Yeah, that's a way to run a business. The other half of the equation was that the WWF was suffering from a pretty bad hangover after the high points of the Attitude Era. There was a lot to behold in the latter part of '01, but the fact that fans had become accustomed to such greatness left them feeling a little let down. IMO.

And as an aside, a lot of drooling fanboys will refuse to admit that anything good happened during that time owing largely to the fact that RVD wasn't given the WWF title in a golden bong the moment he set foot in the company.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I thought that summer would have been a good time for a Kane title run, since he was over as fuck. It was clear that they were looking to hold off on Jericho for a while, rightfully so. HHH and Benoit were hurt, and instead of rushing into the Invasion they should have built it slower and waited until they had it ironed out.

A Stone Cold/Kane fued would have been over as hell, and would have been a good oppurtunity to make Kane a champion for longer than 24 hours.

I'm a Kane mark, so that should say something, but while I'm not sure about the ring quality of a Stone Cold/Kane feud in 2001, he 2001 Royal Rumble would have set up for it perfectly. Kane had a hell of a performance in that match (actually what got me hooked on wrestling), and Austin just comes in at the end and uses a steel chair to get rid of him. That could have been used as fodder.

While 2001 was in so many ways an awesome year, there are a few things I think they could have done better. While many liked the Two Man Power Trip, I think things were pretty perfectly set-up so that Triple H could turn face (like originally teased) to do battle with Austin. Especially considering Triple H went over Austin in 3 Stages of Hell at No Way Out.

I guess that was the direction they were thinking about heading after Austin & Hunter lost the World Tag Team Championship to Chris Benoit & Chris Jericho, but injuries obviously got in the way of that. It's just that a lot of fans were turned away after Austin turned heel, and instead of creating a new top babyface to challenge Austin in The Rock's absence, they decided to have the remaining two of the "top three" act as heels.

Another of the WWE's bigger mistakes in 2001, in my opinion, was turning Booker T & Shane McMahon heel just for the sake of making the WCW guys all "evil." When Booker first jumped the barricade and put Austin through an announce table, the fans went NUTS. With The Rock out making a movie, Booker T would have been another great candidate to step-up and challenge Austin. A heel Austin vs. face Booker feud, pitting the WWE Champion against the WCW Champion could have been huge for the WWE. Instead they turned Booker into a clown and a Rock "wannabe."

[Mr. Nerfect]

Right, I'm gonna say something now and I'm not sure anyine is gonna have a clue what I'm talking about, but here goes...

Is it just me or in the early part of 2001 did the colour of WWE look more vibrant?

I really don't know how to explain it but I remember watching a few of the PPVs (Backlash & Judgment Day spring to mind) and the colour just looks different.

I know exactly what you mean, actually.

[NeanderCarl]

Another of the WWE's bigger mistakes in 2001, in my opinion, was turning Booker T & Shane McMahon heel just for the sake of making the WCW guys all "evil." When Booker first jumped the barricade and put Austin through an announce table, the fans went NUTS. With The Rock out making a movie, Booker T would have been another great candidate to step-up and challenge Austin. A heel Austin vs. face Booker feud, pitting the WWE Champion against the WCW Champion could have been huge for the WWE. Instead they turned Booker into a clown and a Rock "wannabe."

They pushed Booker strong as a face when plans were afoot for WCW to take over one of the TV shows. When the WCW matches on Raw flopped badly, those plans were abandoned. They had no choice but to turn Booker and the Invasion guys heel, otherwise the story would have been even more of a confusing mess than it was. How you can you have two warring factions, when each side is made up of both heels and faces? Who do the fans root for?

There had to be clarity for the angle to have any kind of lasting chance, and one side had to be presented as the antagonists, Did you really think Vince was gonna present the WWF as the bad guys against WCW?

The main things that fucked up the Invasion:

1. Stephanie McMahon. Her first big angle in charge of the creative team, and she proved out of her depth.

2. XFL. A massive distraction for Vince McMahon, and a huge drain on his resources, leading to....

3. Vince's XFL-forced frugality = no big name WCW topliners. WCW was made up of nobodies and guys who had defected from WWF for the angle. The only true WCW stars were Booker T, who had become a main eventer long after most had stopped watching Nitro, and DDP who was instantly made to look like shit by Undertaker.

The third factor is made a more bitter pill to swallow by the fact that when the Invasion angle was dead and buried, Vince proceeded to dip his hand in his pockets and bring in ALL the guys who would have made the angle white hot... Hogan, Bischoff, Hall, Nash, Flair, Steiner, Goldberg... squandered opportunity yes, but don't let that big disappointment detract from some of the great moments the Invasion angle did manage to muster up, plus hark back to a time in late 2001 when Rob Van Dam was the most over guy in the company, the Paranoid Rattlesnake's "What?" gimmick had yet to grow annoying, Vince/Austin/Angle were gold and great matches were taking place left, right and centre.

[Legend Killer]

It was more vibrant, NOT TO MENTION, Backlash that year kicked so much ass. Judgment Day was awesome too. But no I have said it before, 2001 was my favorite year, I know most of you think the Alliance was the beginning of the end, but I think it was a great start to something awesome, but newer wrestlers like John Cena and Batista came along. All of the REAL wrestlers either killed their family, died of natural causes, or got fired due to Mary-Jane or Roids. Some also just got too old and it was time for them to retire. It sucks that wrestling takes a toll on a man's body, if only it was something that many could keep doing until the day they die.

[Mr. Nerfect]

They pushed Booker strong as a face when plans were afoot for WCW to take over one of the TV shows. When the WCW matches on Raw flopped badly, those plans were abandoned. They had no choice but to turn Booker and the Invasion guys heel, otherwise the story would have been even more of a confusing mess than it was. How you can you have two warring factions, when each side is made up of both heels and faces? Who do the fans root for?

There had to be clarity for the angle to have any kind of lasting chance, and one side had to be presented as the antagonists, Did you really think Vince was gonna present the WWF as the bad guys against WCW?

The main things that fucked up the Invasion:

1. Stephanie McMahon. Her first big angle in charge of the creative team, and she proved out of her depth.

2. XFL. A massive distraction for Vince McMahon, and a huge drain on his resources, leading to....

3. Vince's XFL-forced frugality = no big name WCW topliners. WCW was made up of nobodies and guys who had defected from WWF for the angle. The only true WCW stars were Booker T, who had become a main eventer long after most had stopped watching Nitro, and DDP who was instantly made to look like shit by Undertaker.

The third factor is made a more bitter pill to swallow by the fact that when the Invasion angle was dead and buried, Vince proceeded to dip his hand in his pockets and bring in ALL the guys who would have made the angle white hot... Hogan, Bischoff, Hall, Nash, Flair, Steiner, Goldberg... squandered opportunity yes, but don't let that big disappointment detract from some of the great moments the Invasion angle did manage to muster up, plus hark back to a time in late 2001 when Rob Van Dam was the most over guy in the company, the Paranoid Rattlesnake's "What?" gimmick had yet to grow annoying, Vince/Austin/Angle were gold and great matches were taking place left, right and centre.

I was never a big fan of WWF vs. WCW to begin with. Or if they did do it, I don't see why the bag really couldn't have been mixed. The only guys in the Alliance that stood out were Rob Van Dam, Rhyno and Tazz, and that is because they all teased face turns.

[Theo Dious]

plus hark back to a time in late 2001 when Rob Van Dam was the most over guy in the company

In order to actually believe that you have to pretend that Rock and Jericho didn't exist at the time.

[screech]

I thought that summer would have been a good time for a Kane title run, since he was over as fuck. It was clear that they were looking to hold off on Jericho for a while, rightfully so. HHH and Benoit were hurt, and instead of rushing into the Invasion they should have built it slower and waited until they had it ironed out.

A Stone Cold/Kane fued would have been over as hell, and would have been a good oppurtunity to make Kane a champion for longer than 24 hours.

I totally agree, and not just because I'm a Kane mark (well, okay it probably is).

2001 was a pretty great year. I loved the Two Man Power Trip, the awesomeness of the Tag Team division and some of the moments from the Invasion angle (though that's more the second half of the year). One thing I will say about that though, is that I wish there had been other guys to stand out in addition to RVD, Rhyno and Tazz.

[Jeritron]

Not arguing with you. But a lot of the golden moments of that period get washed away in the torrent of abuse the Invasion receives. While it was mishandled and ruined by the XFL, there were still some great moments that wrongly get overlooked.

I'd take Invasion era WWF over today's product any time.

I'd def take the invasion over todays era too. The Invasion was a major dissapointment, and the beginning of a low point that still hasn't been escaped, but it was definitely good tv by any recent standards. It just wasn't as good as it could have been, and that's why it gets such a bad rap.

Like I said, the guys on the roster, the match quality and the overall presentation right down to the crowd was great. I prefer watching stuff from then that I've already seen to most of what currently comes out in either of the televised promotions.
So without a doubt I'd rather be watching that unfold live. I'd just have to do so at peace with the fact that it failed to live up to expectations.

[Jeritron]

I totally agree, and not just because I'm a Kane mark (well, okay it probably is).

2001 was a pretty great year. I loved the Two Man Power Trip, the awesomeness of the Tag Team division and some of the moments from the Invasion angle (though that's more the second half of the year). One thing I will say about that though, is that I wish there had been other guys to stand out in addition to RVD, Rhyno and Tazz.

Well RVD, Rhyno and Tazz should have stood out as their own unit.

In my opinion, the build towards the invasino with Shane buying the company was awesome, and paced right. Then they went hog wild.
I would have liked to have seen it stretched out longer so that it didn't become declared until Summerslam, and didn't really heat up in ring until Survivor Series. They should have terrorized and made an impact longer, before getting in the ring.
Then it could have taken them through Mania.

ECW would be better utilized as a third party, and only a small crew of guys (RVD, Tazz, Rhyno, Dudleys, Raven). They'd also be better used later down the road, after the novelty of WWF vs WCW was fully absorbed.
Then after existing for a while, sure, they could have struck a deal with WCW, but instead of being absorbed it should have been more of an "alliance."

Oh, and Stone Cold should have stayed face after turning back. He never should have jumped sides. If anyone should have, it should have been The Rock, or HHH upon returning.

As for the WCW stable that "invades", less is more.


OH FUCKING WELL

[screech]

Yeah, I thought it started very well too. It seemed more rushed than anything to me, like they got to a certain point and said, "Oh shit. Where do we go from here?" (Kind of like The Legacy thing was until last week.)

I like the idea of a small ECW crew, and for them being used later. They kind of got lost in the shuffle, except for those previously mentioned. Again, the whole thing seemed very rushed.

I liked Stone Cold's role in it, jumping sides and all. But I do like the idea of Rock or HHH. It could have been interesting with either of those three.

So basically I agree with everything you said here. Word. :y:

[Jeritron]

It's not that Austin wasn't interesting. It was jsut that he had done the heel thing that summer, and from a kayfabe point of view him leaving WWF wasn't the most interesting.

The Rock hadn't played heel in a while, and as a silver spoon WWF guy he hadn't experienced WCW. He could leave to spite Vince for favoring Austin that year. Makes far more sense, and seems far more interesting to me. Rock was never buried or held down by WCW.

And HHH of course makes a ton of sense too because a) he's a god amongst heels, b) he was returning and would have great momentum and heat for jumping ship.

[NeanderCarl]

Triple H was out injured until January, when the Invasion was over... he missed the entire thing.

Rock was part-time and working on The Scorpion King. He could have maybe turned heel upon his return around SummerSlam time, but I suppose they wanted to keep him face to help the promotion of the movie.

In order to actually believe that you have to pretend that Rock and Jericho didn't exist at the time.

Well, Rock was always over anyway so I'll concede that, even though he was barely around for a lot of 2001... but I'd say RVD was more over than Jericho (or equal to, at least) during the "honeymoon period" of his arrival, through to around the time of the feud with Goldust which kinda killed him a bit for a while in early 2002. Jericho was leaning towards a heel turn anyway at the time, having reached the heights of his face run in his feud with Austin, which he lost, before RVD even arrived.

Check out No Mercy 2001, in which RVD is in a WWE title main event just a couple of months after his debut, and is the most over guy on the card with that night's crowd.

[RatedGSuperstar]

I'm a little late to the party, but one part of early 2001 that I really liked were the two Austin/Benoit WWF title matches in Canada on back-to-back shows in late May. The "Screwjob Part 2" schtick they did in Calgary on Raw was pretty dumb (Vince at ringside yelling at the timekeeper to ring the bell when Austin locked the sharpshooter on Benoit), but that match was very entertaining.

The rematch on Smackdown in Edmonton was even better...one of the hottest crowds I can remember seeing on TV, with so many near falls and tap outs that it was genuinely unpredictable. Benoit wailing on Vince with a chair was awesome, too...it's one of those matches that I wish would show up in the war room thread some day. One of my favorite TV matches ever, really.

Then there was the classic cage match on Raw between Angle and Benoit that was right before the Austin/Benoit/Jericho match at KOTR. Great match with some great bumps (Angle missing the moonsault from the top of the cage, Benoit's flying headbutt from the top, etc.), and Austin was good on commentary, too.

[Juan]

You just gave me some great ideas for the next War-Room session :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Triple H was out injured until January, when the Invasion was over... he missed the entire thing.

Check out No Mercy 2001, in which RVD is in a WWE title main event just a couple of months after his debut, and is the most over guy on the card with that night's crowd.

I think the point Jeritron was trying to make was that the Invasion should have lasted longer than it did, and been built more steadily and consistently.

On RVD, in hindsight (always easier), I think he should have won the 2002 Royal Rumble. Had Chris Jericho defend the WWE Title against RVD in the main event of WrestleMania X-8, and have a special attraction of Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock & Triple H vs. The nWo (Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash & Scott Hall).

The nWo, although a 2002 thing, was another angle that fizzled out way sooner than it should have.

[Russenmafia]

Then there was the classic cage match on Raw between Angle and Benoit that was right before the Austin/Benoit/Jericho match at KOTR. Great match with some great bumps (Angle missing the moonsault from the top of the cage, Benoit's flying headbutt from the top, etc.), and Austin was good on commentary, too.

Another good spot from that match was Benoit giving Angle a German suplex off the top rope :eek:

I loved the first half of 2001. So many amazing matches and the best PPV of all time (WM17). I just wish that Rock faced Austin for the title at Summerslam when he returned so he could get his payback on Austin. Just a shame he had to wait till Survivor Series.

[NeanderCarl]

I've always touted WM X-Seven as the best PPV of all time, but to be honest, watching it out of context and analysing the actual card itself, a lot of it was tremendous, some of it was fun, but there was a fair share of dud, and a lot of underwhelming matches too.

If I stopped to think about it for a while, I'm sure I'd come to the decision that there have been better PPVs since, at the very least one.

Maybe none that equalled the value of it in its time and place, the pinnacle of the Attitude era capped off by its two biggest stars, and the whole excitement in the biz at that time... but viewed standalone, I no longer think WM17 is the best PPV of all time.

(Even though I'm loathe to appoint its successor by name without giving it some consideration.)

[NeanderCarl]

Another 2001 gem... Raven vs Rhyno, Backlash.

[NeanderCarl]

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[Jeritron]

Triple H was out injured until January, when the Invasion was over... he missed the entire thing.

Rock was part-time and working on The Scorpion King. He could have maybe turned heel upon his return around SummerSlam time, but I suppose they wanted to keep him face to help the promotion of the movie..


Yea, I'm aware of that. What I meant to imply was not only would they have been wiser choices, but it was also under the premise that the invasion started later and lasted longer, which I thought I suggested earlier.

[Xero]

I'd say the best part about 2001 was Buff Bagwell.

[Theo Dious]

Well, Rock was always over anyway so I'll concede that, even though he was barely around for a lot of 2001... but I'd say RVD was more over than Jericho (or equal to, at least) during the "honeymoon period" of his arrival, through to around the time of the feud with Goldust which kinda killed him a bit for a while in early 2002. Jericho was leaning towards a heel turn anyway at the time, having reached the heights of his face run in his feud with Austin, which he lost, before RVD even arrived.

Check out No Mercy 2001, in which RVD is in a WWE title main event just a couple of months after his debut, and is the most over guy on the card with that night's crowd.

I still don't know if he was as over as all that, or if he was just that much fresher than the others.

[Theo Dious]

I think the point Jeritron was trying to make was that the Invasion should have lasted longer than it did, and been built more steadily and consistently.

On RVD, in hindsight (always easier), I think he should have won the 2002 Royal Rumble. Had Chris Jericho defend the WWE Title against RVD in the main event of WrestleMania X-8, and have a special attraction of Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock & Triple H vs. The nWo (Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash & Scott Hall).

The nWo, although a 2002 thing, was another angle that fizzled out way sooner than it should have.

Really, I don't see how, on a card that featured Austin, Rock, HHH, Hogan, Nash, and Hall (3/4 of the main Kliq for fuck's sake) you could ever get away with a main event of Jericho vs RVD. You might pull that off even at one of the other Big 4 PPVs, not Wrestlemania. The main event looked a little lacking as it was with HHH vs Jericho next to Rock vs Hogan and Austin vs Hall/Nash.

[Theo Dious]

I'd say the best part about 2001 was Buff Bagwell making a total fool of himself.

:yes:

[Jeritron]

Really, I don't see how, on a card that featured Austin, Rock, HHH, Hogan, Nash, and Hall (3/4 of the main Kliq for fuck's sake) you could ever get away with a main event of Jericho vs RVD. You might pull that off even at one of the other Big 4 PPVs, not Wrestlemania. The main event looked a little lacking as it was with HHH vs Jericho next to Rock vs Hogan and Austin vs Hall/Nash.

Personally I always thought that a heel Rock should have gone up against a face Jericho, coming out of the invasion angle.
Stone Cold vs Hogan would have also been opened.

As for the Outsiders, Nash couldn't wrestle. I'd like to have seen them vs HHH and HBM, if something could have been arranged. He was able to wrestle 5 months later

[The Mackem]

Would have loved monster heel Scott Steiner to have continued in 2001.

[NeanderCarl]

Stone Cold vs Hogan was the plan for WrestleMania x-8 as soon as Hogan signed. Austin nixed it (and was probably given a midcard match with Hall, the least valuable member of the nWo, as a punishment).

[NeanderCarl]

Also, Nash was fine to wrestle, they just didn't book him to.

[mynameiscarterr]

The third factor is made a more bitter pill to swallow by the fact that when the Invasion angle was dead and buried, Vince proceeded to dip his hand in his pockets and bring in ALL the guys who would have made the angle white hot... Hogan, Bischoff, Hall, Nash, Flair, Steiner, Goldberg... squandered opportunity yes, but don't let that big disappointment detract from some of the great moments the Invasion angle did manage to muster up, plus hark back to a time in late 2001 when Rob Van Dam was the most over guy in the company, the Paranoid Rattlesnake's "What?" gimmick had yet to grow annoying, Vince/Austin/Angle were gold and great matches were taking place left, right and centre.

I agree that the Austin/Angle matches were fucking awesome.
As much as I disliked Austin's heel turn at the time, I still cheered for him.
I thought it was hilarious, but a little lame when Angle drove in the milk truck and sprayed everyone in the ring down. It was just a reminder that Austin was like that at one time. Hahaha.

I was actually in attendance when Austin beat Angle for his final WWE Championship on Raw.
Everyone in the crowd was disappointed, but I felt lucky not only to see Austin win the Championship, but to see him win it on Raw. Shit like that doesn't happen anymore.

And this was all near the end of the Invasion angle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it end at the 2001 Survivor Series? I think they had a big WWF vs. Alliance Traditional SS match.

[Jeritron]

Here's another thing they should have had in addition to all the things that weren't, like bringing in all the big name players for WCW and stretching it out to be more epic and evenly matched....

War Games.

They had license to all the NWA/WCW traditions and gimmicks, and tape library to promote it.
I'm not even saying they should have kept it annually. Just once.
They had a ton of WCW vs WWF brawls and giant tag matches. One in a War Games would have been epic.

[Heyman]

Steve Austin's work in 2001 is one of the biggest reasons why I feel that he is the greatest of all-time; bar none.

[Jeritron]

Yea, amazing year for him.