What counts in wrestling, i.e. what is Canon?

[BigDaddyCool]

So I was discussing with Kane Knight about how there seems to be a few ways to look at what counts story line wise and what doesn't. This comes from Noid saying Swagger cut a promo a while ago against Tommy Dreamer on ECW which explains Swaggers character and stuff like that.

Now to me, it seems like Noid (and a lot of others like him) count every little thing that happens on WWE tv, WWE.com, and possibly some radio spots as actually happening. Which reminds me of the way Russo would book, if you didn't watch everything, read everything, and just stay completely in the loop, you would miss key parts of storylines.

While I understand where this mindset is coming from, I disagree that simply because something happened, doesn't mean it is important. In my eyes, the only things that count are things that happen or are mentioned on Raw, Smackdown, PPV, or Impact! in TNA's case. What happens on ECW, House Shows, or the Website doesn't count unless it is mentioned later on Raw, Smackdown, Impact! or a PPV.

Now some of you will easily agree house shows and the website easily doesn't count, but why ECW? Well because ECW is an after thought of a show that is a glorified house show. This isn't a knock against ECW, it just doesn't count unless WWE says it counts on a mainshow. I mean seriously, when is the last time ECW was recapped on Smackdown or Raw if it didn't have to to with a Smackdown or Raw title or superstar?

Anyhow, discuss.

[Hanso Amore]

Nothing is Canon, because in a few years they will just do something to change what happened.

[BigDaddyCool]

I forgot to mention that after 6 months to a year, if they don't bring it up, it doesn't count anymore. I think the only thing that still counts is like Piper cracking Snuka in the head with a coconut and Untertaker's streak at Mania. Everything else is uncertain until they decide to bring it up again.

[Hanso Amore]

Correct.

Also, you forgot Hogan slamming Andre.

[BigDaddyCool]

No, that is only Hogan Canon. WWE hasn't mentioned this for a few years, therefore we can't be sure this happened.

[Juan]

I mean seriously, when is the last time ECW was recapped on Smackdown or Raw if it didn't have to to with a Smackdown or Raw title or superstar?

Last week.

[BigDaddyCool]

Shut up Juan.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Was the recap involving Matt Hardy? If it was, i wouldn't count that as they were about to do a massive SWWWEEERRRVVVVEEE the week after.

I bet Matts not on ECW until after WM now.

[RatedGSuperstar]

Off the top of my head, I can remember Shane confirming that Kane once tombstoned Linda and hooked a car battery up to his testicles, and that was probably about 5 years ago now. That was still when Adamle was GM, but they still talk about him being GM so I guess that still happened.

Eric Bischoff was never GM of Raw, though...they haven't mentioned that recently.

[McLegend]

Shane McMahon is the biggest threat to any wrestler ever.

[BigDaddyCool]

Was the recap involving Matt Hardy? If it was, i wouldn't count that as they were about to do a massive SWWWEEERRRVVVVEEE the week after.

I bet Matts not on ECW until after WM now.

Verily. Also Miz, Morrison, and Matt Hardy are canon, but if the rest of ECW doesn't count unless mentioned on Raw or Smackdown.

[Juan]

Verily. Also Miz, Morrison, and Matt Hardy are canon, but if the rest of ECW doesn't count unless mentioned on Raw or Smackdown.

I really don't understand this kind of mentality. Yeah, ECW is the least watched show, but that's WWE's fault. Also, you're argument troubles me because almost nothing that happens on Smackdown ever gets mentioned on Raw.

[Juan]

ECW gets mentioned on Smackdown, Raw gets mentioned on ECW and Smackdown, but neither ECW or Smackdown get mentioned on RAW.

[Hanso Amore]

No one seems to remember that Shane used to be Vince's arch enemy, and now he is so angered by an attack on Vince that he is in tears before beating their top guy down.

[BigDaddyCool]

ECW gets mentioned on Smackdown, Raw gets mentioned on ECW and Smackdown, but neither ECW or Smackdown get mentioned on RAW.

Yeah, Raw and Smackdown are canon.

[Jeritron]

This is absurd.

[BigDaddyCool]

At least I'm trying.

[Kane Knight]

I really don't understand this kind of mentality. Yeah, ECW is the least watched show, but that's WWE's fault. Also, you're argument troubles me because almost nothing that happens on Smackdown ever gets mentioned on Raw.

Just an aside, how is it WWE's fault? People on here keep saying it's the best written, best booked, etc., of WWE's programs, so where's the problem, aside from it being on a network even Trekkies on marginally care about?

Anyway, it's not about being the least watched show. ECW is essentially Velocity/Heat and is treated with roughly the same level of "continuity" within the WWE "universe." I wouldn't be surprised to find they'd retuned wrestlers like they did with Velocity/Heat, either (Misterrrrrrrrr...ANDERSON!).

WWE ignores a lot that happens even on their flagship show, but that's at least kept as an integral part of the loops. It's no stretch to say "ECW; doesn't count."

[Anybody Thrilla]

It is definitely a stretch to say ECW doesn't count. For the record, they recapped ECW on SmackDOWN! when Swagger won the title just a few weeks ago. Anything televised counts. Seems pretty simple, really.

[Kane Knight]

It is definitely a stretch to say ECW doesn't count. For the record, they recapped ECW on SmackDOWN! when Swagger won the title just a few weeks ago. Anything televised counts. Seems pretty simple, really.

We both know that's not true.

[Anybody Thrilla]

ECW counts, god damn it.

[Fox]

This thread is retarded. That is all.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Also, how is calling ECW a 'glorified house show' not a knock on ECW? Just because you don't like ECW is no reason to say it doesn't count. It has its own roster, general manager, and champion. It counts, and you'd be absolutely silly to assume anything otherwise.

If ECW was NEVER mentioned outside of its own show, it's superstars weren't advertised as ECW superstars, and their title was never defended on PPV (it was even defended on RAW before when Kenny Dykstra challenged Bobby Lashley), then you MAY have a point. But none of those things happen.

House shows don't count unless mentioned. That's true. Same for the internet...but to put ECW in that category is...well, stupid, really.

[Fox]

Okay, ECW counts, but it's still pretty much a glorified VelociHeat. And it sucks, because that ECW Title is taking up card-room that should be given to the IC and US belts.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Were you saying that when the ECW title matches were CM Punk versus Elijah Burke or John Morrison? Even Hardy versus Swagger is a good match to me. Just because that title is on the card doesn't mean it's going to be a shitty match, and it also doesn't mean that something better would have replaced it. Maybe a Khali Kiss Cam or something.

[BigDaddyCool]

Which part of I like ECW but it is a developement territory don't you understand?

[Kane Knight]

Were you saying that when the ECW title matches were CM Punk versus Elijah Burke or John Morrison? Even Hardy versus Swagger is a good match to me. Just because that title is on the card doesn't mean it's going to be a shitty match, and it also doesn't mean that something better would have replaced it. Maybe a Khali Kiss Cam or something.


And just because you go out of you way to fellate* everything doesn't lend validity to either the quality or status of the show or matches. It's not about quality, but treatment. Come now.

*You're the one who preaches it, brotha, not me.

[Kane Knight]

Which part of I like ECW but it is a developement territory don't you understand?

The part that mandates an understanding of a line of thought that is not binary.

[Anybody Thrilla]

And just because you go out of you way to fellate* everything doesn't lend validity to either the quality or status of the show or matches. It's not about quality, but treatment. Come now.

*You're the one who preaches it, brotha, not me.

I'm not going out of my way at all here. ECW counts. Is that really such a ridiculous thing to say? You're not even quoting the post where I gave my reasons as to why. I agree, it's not about quality. But they DO acknowledge that it exists and that its results ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Which part of I like ECW but it is a developement territory don't you understand?

I don't recall you saying you like ECW, nor does that matter. It still counts.

[BigDaddyCool]

I've said I like it many times. I just don't watch it because I have other things to do that watch wrestling all the time.

[Anybody Thrilla]

DVR

[Kane Knight]

I'm not going out of my way at all here. ECW counts. Is that really such a ridiculous thing to say? You're not even quoting the post where I gave my reasons as to why. I agree, it's not about quality. But they DO acknowledge that it exists and that its results ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

In the same sense they've acknowledged what happened on the web, house shows, and Heat/Velocity. You know, it counts when it's convenient.

[Jeritron]

Not really. It's part of PPVs and interpromotional storylines. This is really a pointless argument.

[Juan]

Not really. It's part of PPVs and interpromotional storylines. This is really a pointless argument.

Thank you.

[parkmania]

I STILL REMEMBER!

[BigDaddyCool]

I STILL REMEMBER!

No you don't

[Kane Knight]

No you don't

Because it's not canon.

[BigDaddyCool]

Exactly, thank you.

[parkmania]

Oh, yeah. I forgot.


G TV? Never heard of it.





IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMMIT!

[Kane Knight]

They gave Gilberg his own show? Why don't I remember that?

[Kane Knight]

Not really. It's part of PPVs and interpromotional storylines. This is really a pointless argument.

Yeah, but pretty much any argument on an internet wrestling board is pointless. The more people who accept that, the better. None of us are going to affect policy by debating the merit of a wrestler or storyline. People bitching about Cena? Pointless.

Now that we've gotten the commentary out of the way, it's not really any more pointless than the usual range of discussion and commentary that goes on here. It's simply an example of wrestling as a form of fiction.

ECW is part of interpromotional storylines primarily because of the other promotion. ECW's inclusion in PPVs kind of has its origins in a band-aid solution.

[Jeritron]

It has a title too. Title histories help 'canon', because they're recorded, referenced, and chart history.

That's really all I'm gonna throw out there. I can't really be bothered, but I think it clearly is.

[Kane Knight]

Another thing I was kind of thinking of in terms of "canon" is the official value of titles and specific wins. Like the recent example that they were making a big deal about CM Punk's Triple Crown success. Which is nice, but before him, I can't even remember the last time a triple crown champion was mentioned on TV. With a relatively small number of wrestlers and a large number of accolades (The MITB/Jericho thing from another thread is what prompted me to post this in the first place), it seems like a lot of the big deals that once happened are now diminishing. And with so many of the wrestlers being established talent who have won a lot of titles, or won the Rumble, or whatever, it almost seems like everyone on the roster is "special," though it only matters if the commentary specifically states it.

There are more Triple Crown champs in the last 9 nears than in the 2 decades before, with around ten more in striking distance (2 applicable titles). Doing BDC's meth, that's about 20% of the current roster who could be, on top of roughly 34% who are former world champions (counting the ECW title). Punk's still in a small group, and being the youngest is still going to be a feather in the cap, but right now, there's a glut of accolades and former champs and all sorts of specifics, so they almost HAVE to ignore them until they decide to bring them up.

Championship prestige--Canon or no?