Where is this Gopher Guerrero stuff going?

[Mr. Nerfect]

In my opinion, Chavo Guerrero is one of the most inconsistently booked men in the WWE. They obvious like having Chavo around, but it's kind of sad that the last real active member of the Guerrero bloodline is not getting as much heat as the non-wrestling woman who married into their family.

Watching SmackDown! the other week, though, where Chavo lost to MVP, I couldn't help but notice Jim Ross' commentary. It sounded like he was trying to suggest that Chavo was capable of more than what he was doing, which goes against the way he has talked about Chavo in the past.

I remember some sort of multi-man match on ECW, and in that match, Jim Ross pretty much said "Chavo's got no chance of winning this match." It sounded like he was putting John Morrison (who I love, don't get me wrong) on a more series level than Chavo Guerrero.

Do you think this stuff with Edge & Vickie Guerrero will go anywhere? Will it lead to a Chavo face turn? Will Chavo get to win the US Title, or something? Could Chavo ever amount to being more than a mid-carder/upper mid-card enhancement talent? Would Chavo make a good member of Legacy? Just discuss.

[Fox]

Chavo is missing a certain "it" factor. Perhaps it's his look, perhaps it's his lack of any real charisma (many of his promos feel forced).

Just because he's a Guerrero doesn't mean he should be treated like a God in the wake of Eddie's death. I think he's right where he needs to be on the WWE card.

[BigDaddyCool]

Shut up Noid.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Chavo is missing a certain "it" factor. Perhaps it's his look, perhaps it's his lack of any real charisma (many of his promos feel forced).

Just because he's a Guerrero doesn't mean he should be treated like a God in the wake of Eddie's death. I think he's right where he needs to be on the WWE card.

I've felt that Chavo has been doing some really good promos recently. He's not a genius on the mic, or nearly as charismatic as his uncle was, but to be honest, I truthfully believe he's much more charismatic than a lot of the WWE roster.

To me, Chavo just has something about him that is likeable. I know he likes to play a heel, but I just want to cheer Chavo. He's one of the smaller guys on the roster, meaning he has an uphill battle, and he's just got this "average guy" sort of look about him. He looks nice, I guess.

I'm not saying the guy should main event WrestleMania, or anything, but I think that if he turned on Edge, he could have a really good feud with the guy.

[BigDaddyCool]

Noid, you realize you feel that everyone is giving good promos, and you have a horrible track record of picking talent that gets over, right? I mean the guys you constantly pick to be the next big thing or whatever are the ones that get future endeavored.

So when you say "I've felt that Chavo has been doing some really good promos recently." It doesn't really mean anything. From what I have seen, Chavo has been a little weasel that both Vicky and Edge are wise on, but they still like using him to get their will done, while keeping him on a string. He doesn't really need any more than that.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Noid, you realize you feel that everyone is giving good promos, and you have a horrible track record of picking talent that gets over, right? I mean the guys you constantly pick to be the next big thing or whatever are the ones that get future endeavored.


No, I don't. Don't tell me what I do and don't think. I could rank the guys in the WWE in order of their promo abilities, and I'd put Chavo Guerrero somewhere past half-way.

I'd also like to know which talent I have picked as the "next big thing" have been released. The closest I think I've come to calling someone the "next big thing" would probably be Jack Swagger. He's still employed.

[BigDaddyCool]

Lets see, Paul London, Val Venis, Doug Bashem, Sean O'Haire all off the top of my head.

Also, I never told what you think. Alls I'm saying is that you seemingly give high marks to every mediocore run of the mill wrestler, such as Swagger, Ziggler, Chavo now, the four guys I mentioned previously. Seriously, it is the same tired arguments again and again.

[Savio]

Remember when he was WORLD CHAMPION?

[BigDaddyCool]

Remember when he was ECW WORLD CHAMPION?

fixed.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I think he should give Kerwin White another try. It would be amazing.

[thedamndest]

This is probably as high as Chavo will go. He may have that feud with Edge, but on Smackdown, face or heel, he's going to be the jobber to the stars. It is too bad, because he really is capable of so much more, but they just don't seem to be "going in that direction."

I don't really think he would be relevant to Legacy at all because he is quite a bit older than the other members (unless Randy Orton likes coffee). I believe he will have a job for life though, either as a jobber or an agent.

[Jeritron]

" Wearing his "Eddie Guerrero Is My Favorite Wrestler" shirt. "Coming out next, from El Paso, Mexico! This guy used to be a great bartender, but it hasn't translated to his wrestling skills. He's the scourge of the illustrious Guerrero family, he is Chavo Guerrero Jr! Maybe a 2 out of 10 chance of winning."

[Anybody Thrilla]

Or he will be retooled with a secret agent gimmick....and still be a jobber.

[Anybody Thrilla]

" Wearing his "Eddie Guerrero Is My Favorite Wrestler" shirt. "Coming out next, from El Paso, Mexico! This guy used to be a great bartender, but it hasn't translated to his wrestling skills. He's the scourge of the illustrious Guerrero family, he is Chavo Guerrero Jr! Maybe a 2 out of 10 chance of winning."

Jericho is amazing.

[Jeritron]

"And last but last least, representing Villanos 1 through 62! From the illustrious Villano family, he is VILLANO... FOUR!!! Ladies and gentleman, those are your contestants in tonight's battle royal. I'm going to the back for a coffee, 'cause none of these guys will EVER, EVER beat me for my belt."

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lets see, Paul London, Val Venis, Doug Bashem, Sean O'Haire all off the top of my head.

Also, I never told what you think. Alls I'm saying is that you seemingly give high marks to every mediocore run of the mill wrestler, such as Swagger, Ziggler, Chavo now, the four guys I mentioned previously. Seriously, it is the same tired arguments again and again.

I never claimed any of those above men were the next big thing. I've claimed them misused or underrated. That is all.

You get annoyed at me for looking at these "mediocre" guys, and saying they have potential. It is equally as guilty to look at these guys over an equally short space of time, and say they have no future. Perhaps even more so, because at least my way doesn't necessarily group them at the top, whereas throwing labels like "mediocre" or "shit" on them immediately allocates them restrictions.

Anyway, that conversation is over. I appreciate you being civil about it. Now it's time to move on and get back to the direct topic at hand.

[Mr. Nerfect]

This is probably as high as Chavo will go. He may have that feud with Edge, but on Smackdown, face or heel, he's going to be the jobber to the stars. It is too bad, because he really is capable of so much more, but they just don't seem to be "going in that direction."

I don't really think he would be relevant to Legacy at all because he is quite a bit older than the other members (unless Randy Orton likes coffee). I believe he will have a job for life though, either as a jobber or an agent.

I don't think Legacy is so much about age as it is about "pure blood," is it? I guess they all think they hold the future in their hands, but if Chavo is a third generation competitor, good enough to be a means to to their end, I cannot see why Legacy would not accept Chavo Guerrero with open arms. Then they can have Randy Orton chase the World Heavyweight Title, Chavo take the ECW Title, Cody Rhodes go after the IC belt, Ted DiBiase & DH Smith go after the World Tag Team Titles, etc.

But honestly, I'm hoping that Chavo Guerrero turns face sometime soon after WrestleMania, and gets involved in the WWE Title program, most likely between Edge and Triple H. NO, I don't think he should win the belt, or even be a permanent main eventer. But I'd like to see the WWE pull the trigger with him, and see if he can hang on for a while up that as a top face. If he can't, then there's no reason he cannot win back the ECW Title at a later date, or something, and they can have another chance to re-build him.

[Hanso Amore]

Chavo does not even "deserve" his spot as it is. He is not that good in the ring, has horrible look, and no charisma.

Had Eddie not died, he would have been wished well long ago.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I'm not going to say that Hanso is COMPLETELY right, but he's pretty much right.

[The Optimist]

No where. I love Chavo, I'll disagree with Hanso until the cows come home. But he can't put a serious angle over to save his life.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I'm serious about Kerwin White, btw. That was his big chance at success and he bitched about it.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I wonder what would have happened if Eddie never died. Would Chavo have had the balls to complain about Kerwin White? He may still be bleached blonde to this day.

[The Optimist]

What was so awesome about Kerwin White?

[Anybody Thrilla]

His theme music, for one.

[Rollermacka]

What was so awesome about Kerwin White?

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So the only thing that could made this gimmick better was to have Bam Neely in the seat next to him, have the Kerwin White gimmick when he was ECW champ


Also, listen to the commentary at around 1:20 :lol:

[The Optimist]

I mean, I was there and everything. I still to this day don't get it.

Is it a racist comedy angle basically?

[Mr. Nerfect]

No where. I love Chavo, I'll disagree with Hanso until the cows come home. But he can't put a serious angle over to save his life.

I disagree. Chavo Guerrero pretty much saved the World Heavyweight Title match at WrestleMania 22. The fans turned on Rey Mysterio HARD, but when Chavo came out, he managed to give the moment a little inertia.

Chavo's not the best ever, but people severely underrate many of his attributes. Things like mic skills, charisma and the gravity his character wields.

[Fox]

Yes, but it's reverse racism, which makes it "edgy."

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'll be honest. I never liked Kerwin White much past his hilarious titantron.

[Fox]

Anyways, the thing about Chavo joining Legacy is that he shouldn't join Legacy.

Can you really see Chavo walking out to the ring with the all-American boys: Rhodes, DiBiase and Orton? "One of these is not like the other, one of these things doesn't belong." I'm not saying it's an all-white guys group, but his look simply does not fit the Legacy theme they have going (the same problem with Manu).

If anything, Chavo would be the guy who tried to get into Legacy and got kicked out, then tagged with Rey for a few months to feud with Simply Priceless over the Tag Titles. THAT I can see. Chavo in Legacy: no.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyways, the thing about Chavo joining Legacy is that he shouldn't join Legacy.

Can you really see Chavo walking out to the ring with the all-American boys: Rhodes, DiBiase and Orton? "One of these is not like the other, one of these things doesn't belong." I'm not saying it's an all-white guys group, but his look simply does not fit the Legacy theme they have going (the same problem with Manu).

If anything, Chavo would be the guy who tried to get into Legacy and got kicked out, then tagged with Rey for a few months to feud with Simply Priceless over the Tag Titles. THAT I can see. Chavo in Legacy: no.

I cannot say I agree with you there. I do get what you're saying, and I will agree that Manu's image didn't really fit in with the group. But them being all-American boys? I wouldn't go that far with them. I think Chavo's age would play against him more than his race.

[Fox]

How can you argue that Orton, DiBiase and Rhodes are NOT the stereotypical All-American boys? All of them could've fought for Hitler, no prob. Chavo and Manu - NO.

[Mr. Nerfect]

How can you argue that Orton, DiBiase and Rhodes are NOT the stereotypical All-American boys? All of them could've fought for Hitler, no prob. Chavo and Manu - NO.

Because there has been absolutely no indication that their on-screen characters are racist? In fact, Orton actually gave opportunities to Manu and Sim Snuka to get into the group. Manu was brought into the company by Ted DiBiase & Cody Rhodes.

[The Optimist]

They're not aryan, Fox.

Fox isn't saying they're racist, Noid. Chavo is an older guy, shorter than any of the Legacy and wouldn't fit Randy's scheme.

[Mr. Nerfect]

They're not aryan, Fox.

Fox isn't saying they're racist, Noid. Chavo is an older guy, shorter than any of the Legacy and wouldn't fit Randy's scheme.

Unless Chavo had something to offer Randy. While we're on the topic, just think of that show Oz. Randy and Chavo could very easily get a working relationship going if it betters both of them.

[The Optimist]

With what though? Randy's already got two young athletic goons. Chavo's a good wrestler, and an ECW Champion but he's not hired-gun material.

The only way I could see it coming anywhere near that direction is if Edge and Randy had some sort of talent-trade between Legacy and . . . whatever Edge has going for him besides Chavo.

[Fox]

Because there has been absolutely no indication that their on-screen characters are racist? In fact, Orton actually gave opportunities to Manu and Sim Snuka to get into the group. Manu was brought into the company by Ted DiBiase & Cody Rhodes.

"Orton gave opportunities to them"? You know this stuff is scripted, right? That the decisions of who will be in a group and who won't are not made by Randy Orton and Co.?

I'm saying that visually speaking, Chavo Guerrero is a square peg in a circular hole when it comes to joining Legacy. He does not fit the crew. A guy like DH Smith, on the other hand, fits in beautifully: he is new, he is second gen, and he's a big, muscular white guy with a particular look. Chavo is well known by wrestling fans and has been for many years. Orton, DiBiase and Rhodes are all relatively new, as were their try-outs Manu and Snuka.

And I believe that the writers of the show realize that as well.

[screech]

I'm really not a fan of Chavo at all. I don't think he's that good in the ring and his promos are unbearable to me. He also looks like a jobber/lackey for life, which is probably what he'll remain.

Although I did like Kerwin White...

[The Optimist]

Ha. It's fun to pretend wrestling makes sense, Fox. You should try it.

[Fox]

My point was that I wasn't talking about the kayfabe aspect of why Chavo doesn't fit into Legacy, but the creative aspect of it, which are two different things. I know Orton gave try-outs to Manu and Snuka, and I wasn't saying that Orton is supposed to be racist. I'm saying that the writers and people in charge (namely Vince) might be inclined to keep the group with a certain style.

It'd be like Rey Mysterio joining Evolution. What the fuck would that be about?

I can suspend my disbelief just fine, Optimist.

[Hanso Amore]

I'm not going to say that Hanso is COMPLETELY right, but he's pretty much right.

You dont have to love trannies.

But you have to admit that Chavo minus an Eddie Death was on his way out. had EG made it 6 more months, Chavo would have been in TNA by that point.

[Hanso Amore]

Chavo does not fit into Legacy because he is 40, and he is not a young upstart.

Why would a 40 year old loser take the tutelage of a 28 year old guy with the hopes of making his future brighter, he has none.

Also, had Vickie not taken the job as GM, Chavo would have been gone long ago too.

[Kane Knight]

I'm still not sure why Chavo would work in the Legacy, or why it should be suggested beyond "if we arbitrarily place him somewhere, maybe he'll succeed by association."

[Hanso Amore]

Oh, and Noid, Chavo didnt save the WM title match by coming out for Rey.

Eddie Did.

People need to learn to strip Eddies Memory and death away from Chavo and see him for he really is.

[Mr. Nerfect]

"Orton gave opportunities to them"? You know this stuff is scripted, right? That the decisions of who will be in a group and who won't are not made by Randy Orton and Co.?

I'm saying that visually speaking, Chavo Guerrero is a square peg in a circular hole when it comes to joining Legacy. He does not fit the crew. A guy like DH Smith, on the other hand, fits in beautifully: he is new, he is second gen, and he's a big, muscular white guy with a particular look. Chavo is well known by wrestling fans and has been for many years. Orton, DiBiase and Rhodes are all relatively new, as were their try-outs Manu and Snuka.

And I believe that the writers of the show realize that as well.

Now you're making a little bit of sense, not going with the whole racist stuff. What the fuck was that about, Fox?

Visually, I don't think Chavo is as far-cry from the group as you're making him out to be. The guy can be a snappy dresser, and you'd just have to tweak his attitude slightly, and I could see him fitting in really well. Maybe you can't, but that's just where we have to disagree.

What I gather Legacy is about:

* Second or third generation wrestlers who want to become greater than their fathers or grandfathers.

To me, the common thread that guys like Randy Orton, Ted DiBiase & Cody Rhodes share (in a kayfabe sense), is that they grew up in the business, and have some sort of unnatural ambition. If Chavo got sick of Vickie Guerrero and Edge treating him like shit, and he decided to push Vickie's wheelchair off the stage, or something, and he went over to RAW via ECW, I could see no reason that Chavo's ambition could not help him fit in with the group.

You don't want every member to be identical, anyway. There has to be some separation between them, or no one will stand out.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Oh, and Noid, Chavo didnt save the WM title match by coming out for Rey.

Eddie Did.

People need to learn to strip Eddies Memory and death away from Chavo and see him for he really is.

Perhaps, but people did that just fine for Rey Mysterio.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Chavo does not fit into Legacy because he is 40, and he is not a young upstart.

Why would a 40 year old loser take the tutelage of a 28 year old guy with the hopes of making his future brighter, he has none.

Also, had Vickie not taken the job as GM, Chavo would have been gone long ago too.

Maybe I missed it, but has the groundwork for the Legacy stable actually been laid out to say "We are only young guys." I don't see how his age would prevent him from being a Legacy wrestler. It looked like the WWE were going to put Sim Snuka in the group for a while, and he is also in his mid-to-late forties.

Chavo Guerrero would not take tutelage from Orton, so much as simply become an enabler to his success. Chavo Guerrero adds decades more experience to the group, while sticking to their guidelines, and welcoming in a wrestler who doesn't pose an immediate threat to Orton. With Chavo officially a member of the ECW roster, Chavo would sort of be removed from the group. He'd be more an adviser to Randy Orton, than anything. Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase would be instructed to learn what they could from him.

I'd rather see Chavo switch gears and become the crafty veteran he could be booked as, instead of the stupid goon he currently plays. If you've got the guy on the payroll, you might as well use him to best effect.

By the way, personally, I'd rather see Chavo remain on SmackDown! as a face, and not join Legacy. I just do not see what is so "weird" about Chavo joining the group. He is a third generation wrestler from an iconic wrestling family, who could very easily declare that he wants to be greater than his father, uncle or grandfather.

[Mr. Nerfect]

With what though? Randy's already got two young athletic goons. Chavo's a good wrestler, and an ECW Champion but he's not hired-gun material.

The only way I could see it coming anywhere near that direction is if Edge and Randy had some sort of talent-trade between Legacy and . . . whatever Edge has going for him besides Chavo.

I wouldn't use him as a hired gun within the group. I'd probably lean more towards a "we can lot a lot from this man" type of thing. Chavo Guerrero has instructed on Tough Enough in the past, and has mentored several young guys on their way into the company (Nick Nemeth, Bam Neely and even Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins, to a degree). Orton could see some interest in using Chavo's wrestling style to better instruct Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase.

[BigDaddyCool]

Shut up noid. You couldn't be any more wrong.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I have very rarely been wrong in my life. About anything.

[Ben Kenobi]

Chavo and Eddie was a funny combo but he never impressed me in the ring though. Since Eddie is gone Chavo essentially became worthless. Besides his little stint as ECW Champ I don't see anything big for him anymore.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It seems Chavo might be setting his sights on the US Title. Is this too high for him?

[screech]

I think the US Title is way too high for Chavo.

[Ruien]

When the likes of K-Kwik, Shelton, and TBK are running for the US Title, no one is to low for a run/title shot. Now when MVP gains it back and starts going at it with Kennedy, then you have a point.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think Chavo is going to get involved in the angle with MVP and Shelton Benjamin. Two weeks ago, he wrestled MVP, and then last week tossed MVP over in the Battle Royal. I think they want to keep Chavo at around that level of credibility.

[screech]

When the likes of K-Kwik, Shelton, and TBK are running for the US Title, no one is to low for a run/title shot. Now when MVP gains it back and starts going at it with Kennedy, then you have a point.

Ron Killings is over with the fans with all of his flashiness (not a big fan but it works), Shelton can wrestle a great match, The Brian Kendrick can actually cut a promo, and all of them have charisma.

Chavo has none of these qualities.

[Kane Knight]

Maybe he can team up with Dolph Ziggler.

[Juan]

Maybe he can team up with Dolph Ziggler.

http://www.centralpark.com/pages/sports/fishing.jpg

[Kane Knight]

http://www.centralpark.com/pages/sports/fishing.jpg

Untrue.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ron Killings is over with the fans with all of his flashiness (not a big fan but it works), Shelton can wrestle a great match, The Brian Kendrick can actually cut a promo, and all of them have charisma.

Chavo has none of these qualities.

I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Maybe he can team up with Dolph Ziggler.

I think the WWE has long since forgotten about their history now. Given their differences in styles, and that both men seem to be after something else right now, I don't think a team between them would work.

If Chavo ever goes back to Kerwin White, I wouldn't mind seeing a few vignettes with them at the golf course, though.

[BigDaddyCool]

Noid, this is you in this thread:

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[BigDaddyCool]

BTW, just to clarify Noid, because I know you are retarded, I'm saying you are the mule, not the guy.

[Kane Knight]

I think the WWE has long since forgotten about their history now. Given their differences in styles, and that both men seem to be after something else right now, I don't think a team between them would work.

If Chavo ever goes back to Kerwin White, I wouldn't mind seeing a few vignettes with them at the golf course, though.

I'm not sure how that's any different then pairing him up with the Legacy.

[screech]

I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.

I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.

[BigDaddyCool]

I've felt that Chavo has been doing some really good promos recently. He's not a genius on the mic, or nearly as charismatic as his uncle was, but to be honest, I truthfully believe he's much more charismatic than a lot of the WWE roster.

No, I don't. Don't tell me what I do and don't think. I could rank the guys in the WWE in order of their promo abilities, and I'd put Chavo Guerrero somewhere past half-way.

I'd argue that Chavo can wrestle a great match and has charisma. He may not be able to cut a great promo, but he his serviceable on the mic.

I love how through the same thread Noids opinion of Chavo the mic slips, but Noid still want to push him further than he should. Seriously, Noid see how you go from really good, to just above average, to merely servicable? I mean you literally are losing ground with ever back and forth in this thread. Why can't you just agree this is as good as Chavo is going to be for the rest of his career. Chavo is on the downward slope. He isn't useless, yet, but he isn't Legacy material.

[Kane Knight]

I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.

This is a board where people were actually arguing that Edge was ME material, admitting he wasn't good in the ring, but was capable of being carried.

Chavo's probably no worse in the sense that he can play well enough with others. When working with someone who's great, he can look good.

Of course, that leads to pushing people who have no ability to really stand on their own, as opposed to personalities and talents which can be used in programs against virtually everyone.

But hey, that's what people seem towant. Guys who can be carried.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm not sure how that's any different then pairing him up with the Legacy.

What's the point of Legacy? I ask you this, and then you'll have your answer. Asswipe.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I love how through the same thread Noids opinion of Chavo the mic slips, but Noid still want to push him further than he should. Seriously, Noid see how you go from really good, to just above average, to merely servicable? I mean you literally are losing ground with ever back and forth in this thread. Why can't you just agree this is as good as Chavo is going to be for the rest of his career. Chavo is on the downward slope. He isn't useless, yet, but he isn't Legacy material.

Chavo has been cutting some good promos lately. That much is true. Overall his mic skills aren't fantastic, but they're above average. And just so you know, the reason I keep playing devil's advocate with Chavo is for the sake of discussion. If you do not want to discuss, get the fuck out. Simple.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I just don't see how he has any charisma by himself. Yes, with Eddie he was mildly entertaining, but that was mostly Eddie. As I've said in other threads, I really just can't stand watching a Chavo match (or promo for that matter). To me, how good the match is depends on his opponent.

People often confuse charisma with an outgoing personality. Chavo doesn't exactly portray a party animal persona, but that doesn't mean he is without charisma.

Chavo has long been over with the WWE audience, and that is not solely Eddie's doing. Prior to Eddie's death, Chavo was still able to get the fans to boo him or cheer him according to his face/heel alignment. Granted, I would have never picked him for a future World Champion, but I'd definitely put him ahead of guys like Khali and Mark Henry on my list of preferred guys to win the big one.

I'm sensing that you just don't like Chavo. Could that be a possibility? I'm not suggesting that as a negative thing, it's your prerogative, and there are some guys that I am not particularly fond of (Jeff Hardy and Triple H come to mind), but I can admit that they are both good talents. Do you really believe that Chavo needs to be carried? I've seen Chavo do more than his fair share of carrying, is all.

[Mr. Nerfect]

This is a board where people were actually arguing that Edge was ME material, admitting he wasn't good in the ring, but was capable of being carried.

Chavo's probably no worse in the sense that he can play well enough with others. When working with someone who's great, he can look good.

Of course, that leads to pushing people who have no ability to really stand on their own, as opposed to personalities and talents which can be used in programs against virtually everyone.

But hey, that's what people seem towant. Guys who can be carried.

I don't think people ever said that Edge wasn't good in the ring. I know some people said that said he can be carried to great matches, but when working with crappy opponents, his matches can turn out pretty messy. I know I was one of them.

The thing about that, though, is that it falls equally as much on Edge's opponent as it does Edge. If Edge had a snoozer with Randy Orton, then it is just as much Orton's fault as it is Edge's.

Sure, the ideal wrestler would be able to have a good match with everyone; but just how many of those guys are there out there? Triple H can't fucking do it. Shawn Michaels is one that a lot of people will throw out there, but he's had some borefests, too. The thing is, if every one of your top talents can work with the best talents to produce great matches, and that your top talents are your best talents, there's no real problem with pushing a guy who can't get a great showing out of Gene Snitsky.

[BigDaddyCool]

Chavo has been cutting some good promos lately. That much is true. Overall his mic skills aren't fantastic, but they're above average. And just so you know, the reason I keep playing devil's advocate with Chavo is for the sake of discussion. If you do not want to discuss, get the fuck out. Simple.

You are playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion? You do realize that "devil's advocate" means you disagree with the position, but are just doing it to continue an argument? So there for you are saying you just wanted to argue about how Chavo needs to be in a hire position without believing it?

If that is true, then no one in this thread thinks Chavo needs to move up? So therefore thread is over.

[screech]

People often confuse charisma with an outgoing personality. Chavo doesn't exactly portray a party animal persona, but that doesn't mean he is without charisma.

Chavo has long been over with the WWE audience, and that is not solely Eddie's doing. Prior to Eddie's death, Chavo was still able to get the fans to boo him or cheer him according to his face/heel alignment. Granted, I would have never picked him for a future World Champion, but I'd definitely put him ahead of guys like Khali and Mark Henry on my list of preferred guys to win the big one.

I'm sensing that you just don't like Chavo. Could that be a possibility? I'm not suggesting that as a negative thing, it's your prerogative, and there are some guys that I am not particularly fond of (Jeff Hardy and Triple H come to mind), but I can admit that they are both good talents. Do you really believe that Chavo needs to be carried? I've seen Chavo do more than his fair share of carrying, is all.

To me, Chavo has always been "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" rather than just Chavo. So that cheering/booing has seemed by association in a sense. When he was with Eddie (face or heel), the reaction were because of Eddie. He joined La Familia, the reactions are/were because of Edge and Vickie. Even when he does the Three Amigos, he gets booed instead of cheered now. At first, it was seen as a tribute because he dropped Kerwin White and was featured prominently as "Eddie's nephew." Now, since he's teamed with heels and they're getting heat, he is getting heat also. That's just how I've seen, and still see, Chavo. The only time he's really been his own "character" I guess is Kerwin White (which I liked).

You are correct, sir. I do not like Chavo at all. The matches I've seen of his were good depending on his opponent (as I said before). I just don't think Chavo is very good on his own. More often than not, I see him as needing to be carried in matches and through feuds (CM Punk comes to mind right away).

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, it has been said before, but Chavo's entire move set is a homage to someone. Even his super crappy looking frog splash is a double homage, as he is paying tribute to Eddie, and Eddie was paying tribute to Art Barr.

[Kane Knight]

What's the point of Legacy? I ask you this, and then you'll have your answer. Asswipe.

Notice how defensive you get?

The "point" of the legacy is to promote up and comers WWE has faith in. It doesn't really matter that they don't specifically say "no old guys allowed" on TV. Chavo would readily be an albatross around the neck of the group.

[Mr. Nerfect]

You are playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion? You do realize that "devil's advocate" means you disagree with the position, but are just doing it to continue an argument? So there for you are saying you just wanted to argue about how Chavo needs to be in a hire position without believing it?

If that is true, then no one in this thread thinks Chavo needs to move up? So therefore thread is over.

Not neccessarily. Devil's advocate doesn't mean you disagree with the position. It just means you are arguing for the sake of argument. I am just looking for someone to actually discuss the pros and cons of Chavo's upside in the WWE. Personally, I think it is greater than what people are giving him credit for.

I haven't neccessarily completely disagree with what people have been saying about Chavo, though. I get that he doesn't ooze that "it" factor. I do think that a lot of what I am discussing, mainly with screech, is subjective, though.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Also, it has been said before, but Chavo's entire move set is a homage to someone. Even his super crappy looking frog splash is a double homage, as he is paying tribute to Eddie, and Eddie was paying tribute to Art Barr.

I agree that Chavo does a really crappy Frog Splash. He's always had a problem with it, for some reason, which is a bit weird, because a Frog Splash seems really easy to do. I don't see how it being a double tribute to Art Barr and Eddie Guerrero is a bad thing, though.

Chavo needs to go back to using moves that worked for him, and let someone else do the Frog Splash now. It's a perfectly fine move for someone like Christian to use. Or to give someone from FCW so they don't have to use a neckbreaker to try and get over with.

Notice how defensive you get?

The "point" of the legacy is to promote up and comers WWE has faith in. It doesn't really matter that they don't specifically say "no old guys allowed" on TV. Chavo would readily be an albatross around the neck of the group.

Calling you an "asswipe" isn't defensive. That's being honest and forthcoming.

That is a good point you made about Legacy. Does that mean they have to be exclusively for young guys. Chavo could easily serve as an experienced "fixer" for the group, to ensure that they have someone at ringside to aid them in winning. He can be there as an "I wish there was a movement like this when I was coming up in the business" sort of justification for the group.

Just because the goal of the group is to put over young second or third generation stars, doesn't mean that they cannot associate at all with an older third generation star.

[Mr. Nerfect]

To me, Chavo has always been "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" rather than just Chavo. So that cheering/booing has seemed by association in a sense. When he was with Eddie (face or heel), the reaction were because of Eddie. He joined La Familia, the reactions are/were because of Edge and Vickie. Even when he does the Three Amigos, he gets booed instead of cheered now. At first, it was seen as a tribute because he dropped Kerwin White and was featured prominently as "Eddie's nephew." Now, since he's teamed with heels and they're getting heat, he is getting heat also. That's just how I've seen, and still see, Chavo. The only time he's really been his own "character" I guess is Kerwin White (which I liked).

You are correct, sir. I do not like Chavo at all. The matches I've seen of his were good depending on his opponent (as I said before). I just don't think Chavo is very good on his own. More often than not, I see him as needing to be carried in matches and through feuds (CM Punk comes to mind right away).

Thank you for actually discussing this.

Your views aren't without logic, but I do not quite agree. While being "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" has certainly helped him. With longetivity and the number of opportunities he has been given, to say the least, I do not think that can be attributed as the sole source of Chavo's heat. Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins were also aligned with Vickie Guerrero and Edge, but I don't remember them getting nearly as much heat as Chavo consistently gets.

Sure, being Eddie's nephew probably heightens that, but it's not something that Chavo can help, and I don't think it should be held against him. Being multi-generation stars didn't exactly help Sim Snuka and Manu instantly set the world on fire, so I don't think it is something that is a sure-fire thing. Chavo has had to work at his connection with the fans, I believe.

I want to ask you if you think your opinion of Chavo Guerrero's abilities may be biased? I'm not accusing you of that, but purely asking for a self-reflection of whether or not you think it is possible. I can't remember the last time I saw a bad match out of Chavo Guerrero, is all.

[BigDaddyCool]

No, by defintion, Devil's Advocate means taking the position you disagree with to further a debate/conversation, look it up.

[screech]

Thank you for actually discussing this.

Your views aren't without logic, but I do not quite agree. While being "Eddie Guerrero's nephew" has certainly helped him. With longetivity and the number of opportunities he has been given, to say the least, I do not think that can be attributed as the sole source of Chavo's heat. Zack Ryder & Curt Hawkins were also aligned with Vickie Guerrero and Edge, but I don't remember them getting nearly as much heat as Chavo consistently gets.

I really think being seen as "Eddie's nephew" (and Vickie's) hurts him now. While Eddie was alive, Chavo was seen as trying to be like him, and paying tribute after his death. Now though, he's still seen as a nephew and he is doing heel things, so his tributes to Eddie generate heat rather than cheers. Hawkins and Ryder basically came out of nowhere, and people just wondered what exactly their role was other than being Edge's lackeys. (And they never seemed to try to get rid of that association.) The difference with Chavo is that he is trying to not be seen as a nephew, and it isn't working.

Sure, being Eddie's nephew probably heightens that, but it's not something that Chavo can help, and I don't think it should be held against him. Being multi-generation stars didn't exactly help Sim Snuka and Manu instantly set the world on fire, so I don't think it is something that is a sure-fire thing. Chavo has had to work at his connection with the fans, I believe.

It shouldn't be held against him, but again, his efforts to "get away" from that are coming up short. I agree, he has to work on his connection with the fans, because to me it's not there at all.

I want to ask you if you think your opinion of Chavo Guerrero's abilities may be biased? I'm not accusing you of that, but purely asking for a self-reflection of whether or not you think it is possible. I can't remember the last time I saw a bad match out of Chavo Guerrero, is all.

Maybe they are biased. I really dislike Chavo. Again, his good matches have been because of his opponents to me. I have never been entertained by anything Chavo has done. His stuff with Eddie was entertaining because of Eddie, not Chavo.

Apologies for the delay, I went away for the weekend.

[Mr. Nerfect]

No worries about the delay, screech. :)

I don't quite understand your point about him trying not to be seen as the nephew. To me, it seems like they are playing it up an awful lot. In fact, every week they talk about how he calls Vickie Guerrero "Aunt Vickie."

Personally, I think Chavo has a very good connection with the fans. Better than he should, really. Yes, that probably does stem from his relationship with Eddie. I find it pretty remarkable that Chavo can be a face, and do something, and get cheered for it. Then, as a heel, he does pretty much the exact same thing, and he gets booed. The fans buy into his act, is my point. He doesn't have the sweeping support Eddie did, nor will he likely ever, but he's more over than say, Elijah Burke (as much as I love him), during his WWE run.

I think the best thing for Chavo right now, would be to win the US Title in this little feud he has growing with MVP and Shelton Benjamin. I know people generally like MVP and Shelton more, and feel that they should be main eventing soon, but that is why I think they don't need the US Title. Especially considering Shelton has held it for a long time, and MVP already had an epic run with it. Ironically, while Chavo probably needs it more than either of those two men, he's also the only one of them who has been a "World Champion" before.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think it basically comes down to this: I quite like Chavo, and you quite do not.

[screech]

I think it basically comes down to this: I quite like Chavo, and you quite do not.

You are correct. I think he sucks and you do not.