If he makes it to 16.... (NWO Spoilers)

[dablackguy]

That title should probably read WHEN he makes it to 16. So HHH is now a 13 time world champion and we've all heard the stories about how he wants to make it to 16 and beyond...

So when he does it, will you care? Will you hold him in a higher (or lower?) regard than you do now? In all likelihood, The E will probably pedal him as the best ever - which is a joke. Will 16 or more titles make you buy into him as the best ever?


Discuss.

[Triple Naitch]

It's hard to say. For every person saying that he is the best ever, there is somebody who will say he just fucked his way to the top. If HHH wasn't married to the boss' daughter, would he be where he is today? I would say.........yes?

[thedamndest]

He's not even in the TPWW HOF so no.

[BigDaddyCool]

Edge is now an 8 time champion, and the fact that he is younger, and seems to get a new title every other month, he might beat HHH to 16.

[Kane86]

YEs it would make him the best ever. Ric Flairs offense ine very match that he is in consists of a few things. Lay on the ground get beat up. Slap on the figure 4 thent he pther guy gets out. Then punch him in the balls while the ref is turned away then roll him up and you win. Thats all i ever see in Flair matches. Hell at least Triple H mixes it up form time to time. I don't know wwhy everyone is so high on Ric Flair when his whole career has consisted of being a punching bag.

[Legend Killer]

My HUGE APPRECIATION FOR FLAIR is what is keeping me from wanting Triple H to have the record. Taking Flair's record of 16-time Champ away leaves him with nothing to be remembered by for years to come, well besides Wrestlemania. So honestly, don't take the one thing that makes Flair the GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

[Triple Naitch]

Edge is now an 8 time champion, and the fact that he is younger, and seems to get a new title every other month, he might beat HHH to 16.

Verily, but how many lengthy title reigns has Edge had compared to HHH? Edge has won and lost a World title six times in the past two years.

[BigDaddyCool]

We are talking about quantity of title runs, not quality or length. It doesn't matter if Edge holds the title for a day or a year, 8 times is still 8 times.

[dablackguy]

It's hard to say. For every person saying that he is the best ever, there is somebody who will say he just fucked his way to the top. If HHH wasn't married to the boss' daughter, would he be where he is today? I would say.........yes?

My main issue with H is that he owes EVERY part of his career to someone else. He came in as the blueblood Hunter Hearst Helmsley and no one cared. He was having feuds with such famous bottom card guys as Duke The Dumpster, etc. He owes the mid card portion of his career to DX and the Rock. Those feuds helped get him to an elevated mid card status.

He owes getting to be a main eventer to the Austin injury and to Foley who put him over big time and gave him undeniable credibility as a main eventer.

He owes being at the forefront of the company to the McMahon-Helmsley era angle and subsequently marrying Steph.

Everything beyond that is self explanitory. Some say he would have eventually gotten to where he is.. except he wouldn't. The guy was being jobbed out to bottom feeders and the later versions of DX wouldn't have gotten him there. He's never been the best wrestler in the company, nor the most over and his career is more likely to be associated with politics and holding guys back rather than his in ring stuff - which is certainly solid. His drawing ability is debatable (to me, he never drew much outside of DX) and while he screams main eventer - nothing to me screams forefront of the company.

[BigDaddyCool]

Everoyne owes their career to someone else, that is silly to say HHH didn't earn anything. HHH has.

Undertaker would have been nothing if Hogan bulldozed him like everyone else.

Austin would have been nothing if Bret Hart and Shawn Micheals didn't put him over.

Foley would have been nothing if Rock and Austin refused to work with him.

Rock would have been nothing if Austin looked past him.

You don't get to the mainevent unless the current mainevents let you in, or are forced to let you in. HHH didn't do anything different than anyone else. I still remember his first title run, it was still before him an Steph were a thing and HHH had that aura of some just about to break through to the top. Now HHH has politiked and fucked his was to staying in the top when he really shouldn't have. But right now he deserves to be where he is.

[Krimzon7]

HHH will not go down as the best ever, One of the greats? yes. The best? nope. BDC is spot on, in saying that SOON Adam Copeland will be a 16, 20 time champion, and he will what will it mean to the masses then? I think that It shows the true talent of edge that EVERYBODY either loves or hates him, and to my knowledge, he's done this without fucking steph or having a Kliq politicking for him.

[BigDaddyCool]

Oh, I'm sure Edge has been politiking. I've noticed in the dvd interviews when the wrestlers are talking about the other wrestlers, Edge and HHH always have nice things to say about each other and how they like working together.

[dablackguy]

Everoyne owes their career to someone else, that is silly to say HHH didn't earn anything. HHH has.

Undertaker would have been nothing if Hogan bulldozed him like everyone else.

Austin would have been nothing if Bret Hart and Shawn Micheals didn't put him over.

Foley would have been nothing if Rock and Austin refused to work with him.

Rock would have been nothing if Austin looked past him.

You don't get to the mainevent unless the current mainevents let you in, or are forced to let you in. HHH didn't do anything different than anyone else. I still remember his first title run, it was still before him an Steph were a thing and HHH had that aura of some just about to break through to the top. Now HHH has politiked and fucked his was to staying in the top when he really shouldn't have. But right now he deserves to be where he is.


Of course you don't get in unless someone lets you in, that "the business 101" But to refute the above:

Undertaker was over and one of the most athletic big men ever in his prime, he had the look, the tools, etc.

Austin took the ball and ran with it after his pushes by Bret and Shawn.

Foley wasn't great everywhere, but could work a decent match with most

The Rock had more than enough charisma and talent to get himself into the ME

Look at all of the guys you mentioned. All of them had something, Taker has become a legend, Rock and Austin speak for themselves and Foley is well, Foley. Consider Austin and Rock were both amazing on the mic, has H ever been anything more than average to slightly above average on the mic? They were both massivey over, has H ever been massively over other than in DX? Most of the above mentioned drew on their own.

Hell, the guy never even really had an era of his own. The H marks would argue 03 to 05 or 06 whenever Cena got big, but those times aren't exactly known for big money and a great product.

[Juan]

H would probably still be a 10 time champion at least if he weren't married to Stephanie.

[BigDaddyCool]

I'm not saying HHH is the greatest, I'm just saying that HHH didn't just fuck and politik his way to the top, because no one can do that and stay on top as long as he has without results.

[dablackguy]

Fair enough

[PorkSoda]

If you take away all the backstage politics, Triple H is an awesome wrestler. So without marrying the boss daughter....he could be where he is right now. I think he's got the wrestling ability to do it.

But yeah I think he will beat Flair's record and go beyond

[Anybody Thrilla]

Another thing to consider here, and this doesn't have so much to do with Triple H as it does with the business in general today compared to what it used to be, is that title changes seem to happen about a billion times more frequently. Ric Flair won sixteen championships in a time where usually a world champion would stay world champion for quite some time. Triple H's titles are coming in an era where the titles seem to change every other pay per view (and there are more pay per views, at that).

I wouldn't say 17 titles should rightfully make Triple H the greatest, but I'm sure the WWE will have us believe otherwise.

As far as politicking goes, I wouldn't say that Flair was completely innocent in that respect, and whether we like it or not, it IS a part of the business. Maybe being a good politicker is part of the all around package of being a great wrestler.

[James Steele]

Triple H > You

[BigDaddyCool]

Another thing to consider here, and this doesn't have so much to do with Triple H as it does with the business in general today compared to what it used to be, is that title changes seem to happen about a billion times more frequently. Ric Flair won sixteen championships in a time where usually a world champion would stay world champion for quite some time. Triple H's titles are coming in an era where the titles seem to change every other pay per view (and there are more pay per views, at that).

I wouldn't say 17 titles should rightfully make Triple H the greatest, but I'm sure the WWE will have us believe otherwise.

As far as politicking goes, I wouldn't say that Flair was completely innocent in that respect, and whether we like it or not, it IS a part of the business. Maybe being a good politicker is part of the all around package of being a great wrestler.

First off, when we are talking about Flair's title riegns, how many world titles has he had, I've seen different numbers, 16 being the lowest.

Second, Flair won his titles back in the day where there was a committee figuring who was going to be champion instead of just Vince McMahon. That makes Flair's title reigns more impressive.

On the other hand, that make's Jerry Lawlers less impressive being that he awarded himself so many titles.

[Kane86]

[QUOTE=.

As far as politicking goes, I wouldn't say that Flair was completely innocent in that respect, and whether we like it or not, it IS a part of the business. Maybe being a good politicker is part of the all around package of being a great wrestler.[/QUOTE]

You bring up a very valid point.

[Anybody Thrilla]

First off, when we are talking about Flair's title riegns, how many world titles has he had, I've seen different numbers, 16 being the lowest.

Second, Flair won his titles back in the day where there was a committee figuring who was going to be champion instead of just Vince McMahon. That makes Flair's title reigns more impressive.

On the other hand, that make's Jerry Lawlers less impressive being that he awarded himself so many titles.

I'd agree.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I'm just saying I'm sure Flair did some politicking throughout his career. Everybody does.

[BigDaddyCool]

Top guys have to.

[Anybody Thrilla]

That's part of what I was saying in my original post.

[BigDaddyCool]

And I'm agreeing while spamming.

Speaking of spam, I put some on my pizza and it was awesome.

[Anybody Thrilla]

What else was on it?

[BigDaddyCool]

Hamburger, i just got a random frozen pizza from the store.

[Rammsteinmad]

No.

[XL]

HHH winning the belt for a 16th time wouldn't make me think of him as 'The Greatest of All Time' IMO.

I'm not gonna speculate on whether he would or not would have held the belt so many times if he hadn't have married into the McMahon's because, well, he did marry in.

As a "smark" I'll always be aware of this and it will taint all of his title reigns.

[DaVe]

Yes, including the title reigns before he married Steph.

Triple H would never have been a multiple-time world champion in 1999 and early 2000s if it weren't for him marrying the boss's daughter years later!

Edit: BTW, I'll never think of him as the greatest. Title reigns mean little to me as I'd rate Taker and Austin far higher. But Helmsley was pretty damn good.

[Tazz Dan]

has H ever been massively over other than in DX?

You need to see HHH's return from his first quad tear. I'd say the size and length of that pop would say that he is very over.

The fact that CM Punk out-popped that at Survivor Series a few years later is another story though...... :shifty:

[Tazz Dan]

But to answer your question, No. I don't think it wil make him the greatest ever.

HBM has only won a third of the world titles HHH has, and I'd say he's still ahead in the rankings.

[Juan]

has H ever been massively over other than in DX?

:eek: Seriously?

[Mr. Nerfect]

:eek: Seriously?

I think he was asking to the point where he drew major numbers or buys -- which is a no.

I actually agree with most of BDC's posts in this thread. I agree that Ric Flair's World Title reigns come from an era where it was harder to get one. I also agree that Jerry Lawler putting a title on himself repeatedly diminishes its worth. I'd also like to question just how many World Titles Ric Flair has won. The WWE has recognised 16, but I have seen people claim he has won more.

As for Triple H, no, it won't make him the greatest. It will take more than that. The only thing I don't agree with BDC in here about, is that Triple H did what anybody did to get to the top. Yes, politics always play some part, but I can understand why people perceive them to be heavier when looking at Triple H's career.

Yeah, he's a great wrestler, which has allowed him to be in this position for so long and not sink the company, but I do not think he deserved all those title runs, and I don't think they make The Man.

One interesting thing about Triple H, though: He has held more World Heavyweight Championships than anyone else in WWE history, with five title reigns. With his eighth WWE Championship win at No Way Out, he beat The Rock's record set about seven years ago, and broke ahead with more WWE Title reigns to his name than anyone else in history. All his World Title runs have taken place in a WWE ring, too. He leads with a four-title advantage over the runner-up, who I still believe is The Rock, on nine (he also won two WCW Titles in the WWE).

Instead of aiming for that magic number, 16, which may not even be accurate, why doesn't Triple H just play up the current fact that he holds the record for most WWE Titles, most World Heavyweight Titles, and most WWE-sanctioned World Titles ever won. I mean, Ric Flair only ever won two World Titles with the WWE. Triple H certainly beats him in that category.

[Mr. Nerfect]

One of the most interesting articles of Ric Flair I have read, analysed each of his "World Title" wins, and decided whether or not it would be included in his final count, which is a bit ridiculous, because if you win a World Title -- you win a World Title.

The NWA recognises Ric Flair officially as a ten-time NWA World Heavyweight Champion. I do not know how you can argue with them. It is their title, and the WWE cannot pick and choose which title reigns it recognises. The WWE do own the WCW Championship, however, and they choose to officially recognise Flair as a seven-time WCW Champion. They also recognise Ric Flair as a two-time WWE Champion.

So the WWE officially holds record over nine Ric Flair World Title reigns. If you add the NWA's official record to that, then you have nineteen. The WWE apparently chooses to add a mystery seven to Flair's "official" record.

Oh, and there was that whole "WCW International World Heavyweight Championship" ordeal. According to Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I know), Flair won that title twice. If the WWE can have two (possibly three) World Titles, then I do not understand why WCW couldn't have. That would take Flair's total up to twenty-one. Technically the WWE might own that, and have the right to pretend it never existed. But that is just messy.

So, on final count, I'd call Ric Flair a 21-time World Champion. If you don't count the WCW International World Heavyweight Title reigns (and I can imagine some not), then by the official sources, you still end up with 19. So Triple H would need to win at least another 7 to officially break ahead of Flair. And he'd probably need to win another 9 just to make sure.

[Novaman]

I've always been a Triple H fan but just because he has 16 title wins doesnt make him the best of all time. I still see Bret Hart better with his 7 title wins.

[BigDaddyCool]

I hate when noid posts, he can never do it in a sentence.

[Xero]

Noid: :roll:

[BigDaddyCool]

Seriously, not just to jump all over noid just for posting, but I read over what you said, and there is nothing new added by your post to this thread. You are just parroting what everyone else said.

[Volare]

I've always been a Triple H fan but just because he has 16 title wins doesnt make him the best of all time. I still see Bret Hart better with his 7 title wins.

I agree and disagree. Yes, Bret Hart has to be included as a factor in comparison, but you also have to factor in his age, and his fate in wrestling if he didn't have that concussion, but instead think of WCW going down and if Vince would've signed him back. I just dont Bret Hart could've made it as far as Trips is right now.

[BigDaddyCool]

I don't think Bret would have made it as far as Triple H. Bret was unwilling to change with the times. He had the same bit through out his career, plus he simply didn't keep up on the politics of wrestling which is why he was forgotten about in WCW.

[Novaman]

I agree, Bret would never have had as many championships i just ment that the amount of times champ doesnt really matter for being the greatest.

[BigDaddyCool]

I was more of saying by the time Bret got kicked, his career was already over. I mean he could have wrestled longer and just tarnished his reputation by not being relevant.

[NoRoolz]

Triple H is great.

Not the greatest ever, though.

[PapaGeorgio]

Semi side question: But does anyone happen to know who has been world champion longest in their career (ie adding up each persons title reign for a combined total)?

[RatedGSuperstar]

Semi side question: But does anyone happen to know who has been world champion longest in their career (ie adding up each persons title reign for a combined total)?

Just the WWE history:
WWE Title
1. Bruno Sammartino - 2 reigns, 4,040 combined days
2. Hulk Hogan - 6 reigns, 2,185 days
3. Bob Backlund - 2 reigns, 2,138 days
4. Pedro Morales - 1 reign, 1,027 days
5. John Cena - 3 reigns, 793 days
6. Bret Hart - 5 reigns, 654 days
7. Steve Austin - 6 reigns, 530 days
8. Randy Savage - 2 reigns, 520 days
9. Triple H - 8 reigns, 473+ days (obviously increasing by the day)
10. Shawn Michaels - 3 reigns, 396 days

World Heavyweight Title (WWE Version)
1. Triple H - 5 reigns, 616 days
2. Batista - 4 reigns, 507 days
3. Edge - 4 reigns, 207+ days (and counting)
4. _______ - 1 reign, 154 days
5. Booker T - 1 reign, 126 days
6. Not Rey Mysterio - 1 reign, 112 days
T-7. Goldberg - 1 reign, 84 days
T-7. John Cena - 1 reign, 84 days
9. Kurt Angle - 1 reign, 82 days
10. CM Punk - 1 reign, 69 days

NWA World Heavyweight Title (only listing those with 1,000+ days)
1. Lou Thesz - 3 reigns, 3,749 days
2. Ric Flair - 10 reigns, 3,101 days
3. Harley Race - 8 reigns, 1,801 days
4. Dory Funk, Jr. - 1 reign, 1,563 days
5. Dan Severn - 2 reigns, 1,559 days
6. Gene Kiniski - 1 reign, 1,131 days
7. Jeff Jarrett - 6 reigns, 1,006 days

Hogan (6 reigns, 1,117 days) and Flair (7 reigns, 505 days) pretty much lap everyone in the WCW World Heavyweight history.

Wikipedia is your friend. ;)

[Supreme Olajuwon]

No, Triple H would not be the greatest of all time. Or at least, having the most world title reigns would not be what makes him as the greatest of all time if that's what he ends up being. Wrestling is about so much more than title reigns.

Figure it this way: are the Dudley Boys the greatest tag team ever?

[BigDaddyCool]

Figure it this way: are the Dudley Boys the greatest tag team ever?

TNA seems to think so, but they are no LOD/Road Warriors.

[Jeritron]

Triple H is definitely great, but it is not defined by his number of title reigns.

Shawn Michaels, for example, is considered the best ever by many. Many others would tie him with, or place him right behind, Ric Flair. He's only held the title 3 or 4 times, and not always for long periods of time.

Titles don't define greatness.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Seriously, not just to jump all over noid just for posting, but I read over what you said, and there is nothing new added by your post to this thread. You are just parroting what everyone else said.

I supported what some people have said.

I also gave you a possible answer for your question as to how many World Titles Ric Flair has held.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Titles should be given to greatness, and not completely compose it.

[BigDaddyCool]

Titles should be given to greatness, and not completely compose it.

Thanks for restating what everyone else has already fucking said you retarded douchebag.

[Savio]

I thought I heard him saying he wouldn't beat flair out of respect.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

All I know is if world titles define greatness, David Arquette is a greater wrestler than Ted Dibiase and Scott Hall and equally as great as Curt Hennig and Ricky Steamboat.

[Jeritron]

and Piper!