Waste (WM spoilers)

[dablackguy]

So we build Orton up to be a beast and have him drop the entire McMahon family. He's basically the best thing going for months.....

....and then this.

Its not just that he lost, its the pathetic showing he had in the match. The best comparison I can draw is to the HBM/Taker match. Sure, we all know about the streak and how Taker was likely to win, but watching the match and getting into it, you felt like Michaels COULD win. You never got that feeling here. In fact, I'd say the whole match was anti climatic.

Great job, Vince. Everytime we get something going with Orton, we just have HHH cut him down at the legs.

Discuss.

[Xero]

As I said in the main thread, I liked what they did with it and it worked well within the storyline. It's a bit disappointing Orton didn't come out on top but it came off more of a revenge match, which is what I figured it would be.

[mike adamle]

its the main event at the biggest show, you cant have a match like that

[Krimzon7]

You can, and you did. HHH was having an epic Mania losing streak. It was perfect build up for HHH to come out the conqering hero. He's a family man, and he won redemption for his kliq, I mean klan.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

The problem is, there is really nothing they can do with Orton tomorrow night to make up for this either. Vince might as well find a new top heel to push, because Orton will never be the badass he could have been.

[KaliKot]

It felt like a Raw first hour main event. It was just boring and plodding and the ending was just a total flop.

i even enjoyed goldberg/lesnar better because of the crowd. Cena making HHH and HBK tap out was even better than that crap.

[Innovator]

Storyline wise, there is no reason why Vince shouldn't fire Orton tomorrow

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I'm guessing they'll have Shane turn tomorrow, setting up a match at Backlash, where Orton will win. Basically turning what could have been a huge title win, and a really breakout moment, into a swerve and an after thought title change in the midst of a ongoing feud.

[Fignuts]

Yeah seriously. Orton getting the win over HHH at WM, would have established him as the unstoppable force that they've been building him up to, and is way more important than any "revenge" triple h got from beating him.

At the end of the day, no one would have cheered triple h less if he lost. But they won't take orton as much of a threat now that he lost.

[Afterlife]

Orton has a fairly "guaranteed" rematch, I'd say.

[Chavo Classic]

How anyone who booked Mania thought HHH and Orton could put on a better show than UT and HBK is unbelievable. That main event completely killed the buzz the earlier match stirred up.

[Fignuts]

Orton has a fairly "guaranteed" rematch, I'd say.

Yeah, but even if he wins it at backlash, it's not going to have nearly the impact it would have tonight. Just not the same.

[Chavo Classic]

Yeah, but even if he wins it at backlash, it's not going to have nearly the impact it would have tonight. Just not the same.

Exactly. Backlash isn't the stage to make stars - that's Wrestlemania. They had a great opportunity tonight to put Orton on the map and they blew it. Sadly, it turned into the HHH show again.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Honestly, they need to do two things... 1. Draft Orton away from HHH, along with the rest of the Legacy. 2. Tomorrow night, or next week, have HBK superkick the fuck out of HHH. Set up the feud, give HBK the belt, and give HBK the farewell run with the belt he deserves (assuming he's leaving after the next Mania.) Seriously, have him keep the belt from Backlash to WM 26. HBK is easily one of the top 5 guys when it comes to pulling great matches out of people, and unlike HHH half the time, HBK can make guys look great while doing it.

[Damian Rey]

At the end of the day, no one would have cheered triple h less if he lost. But they won't take orton as much of a threat now that he lost.

This.

Triple H doesn't need the Mania wins anymore. He's at a point in his career where he should be happily doing the jobs in order to MAKE new stars. Instead, Vince jobs out what could've been arguably the biggest heel over the next 5 years.

[dablackguy]

unlike HHH half the time, HBK can make guys look great while doing it.




Yeah really, HHH didn't do Orton any favors tonight

[Fignuts]

I might be done completely here. At least in terms of keeping up with current stuff. I watched maybe 3 wwe/tna shows since WM 24. So I don't watch anymore. At the least, I keep tabs on whats going on, once in while. But even that might go out the window with this latest debacle. I honestly have no reason to care anymore.

I'll still probably get the documentary dvds, but thats pretty much it for me at this point. I'm done.

[Chavo Classic]

...or watch TNA

Jerry Lynn as new champion > John Cena as new champion

[Damian Rey]

I keep up with Raw, but I don't fret when I miss out. But since Orton punted Vince, I've been glued. Mania did nothing with Orton that makes me care anymore. I think I'm going on a break. I'm extremely disappointed right now.

BTW, anyone else notice the dead silence that consumed the crowd after Orton was jobbed. I bet Vince didn't.

[Loose Cannon]

not even going to go on a rant about my thoughts. it was bullshit.

anyway, I just wanted to comment about this being HHH's "revenge." Here's the problem with that label. To me, Triple H got his revenge on Orton multiple times already. what made this match be his revenge on Orton? He got his revenge when he attacked Orton with the sledgehammer. He got his revenge when he beat the shit out of Orton in his own home and threw him threw his own window. I think that's more of a revenge then pinning him in some wrestling ring. come on

Orton should of walked out of this match outsmarting The Game on the biggest stage of the year. He should of walked out of this match avenging his loss years ago. But yet again....

[Zen v.W.o.]

It was a HHH match. What else did you expect? High quality? HHH isnt capable.

[Xero]

I see we're back on the "let's hate Triple H because he's champion" bandwagon.

[KayfabeMan]

I'm on the lest's hate WM because it sucked so fucking bad bandwagon.

[Chavo Classic]

Not at all. If the match was decent, and he didn't bury Orton, I wouldn't have cared either way

[dablackguy]

I see we're back on the "let's hate Triple H because he's champion" bandwagon.

Not at all. If the match was decent, and he didn't COMPLETELY bury Orton, I wouldn't have cared either way

:y:

[GD]

I guess they needed to stick one belt on Smackdown! so they might have decided to stick the belt on H. As a whole, the whole event seems lack luster. I hope the Draft isn't so bad this year.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

...or watch TNA

Jerry Lynn as new champion > John Cena as new champion
As badass as Jerry Lynn is, even him winning the ROH championship is not a good reason to watch TNA

[The Show Off]

I'm not upset with the finish. I thought Orton showed himself well, the match was good. The finish was a bit abbrupt for me but nothing bad. Orton can use a legit beef what with Triple H using the sledgehammer to win the match. I'm happy with Wrestlemania.

[Exyle]

The match just left a bitter taste in my mouth. No Wrestlemania main event should leave you thinking, "Was that it? ...huh."

[Juan]

I'm not upset with the finish. I thought Orton showed himself well, the match was good. The finish was a bit abbrupt for me but nothing bad. Orton can use a legit beef what with Triple H using the sledgehammer to win the match. I'm happy with Wrestlemania.

Pretty much.

[Loose Cannon]

the ending also shows you how much the WWE really has advanced in seven years

[Xero]

I'm not upset with the finish. I thought Orton showed himself well, the match was good. The finish was a bit abbrupt for me but nothing bad. Orton can use a legit beef what with Triple H using the sledgehammer to win the match. I'm happy with Wrestlemania.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought it wasn't horrible.

As for the quick finish, they were really close to going the full four hours (I think it ended at 10:59) and I suppose they had to cut the main event some, which is a bit ridiculous considering some of the filler.

[James Steele]

You people will find any reason to bitch about Triple H.

I will not get into that whole argument right now, but everything but HBK/Taker felt rushed. I don't know if Kid Rock ran long or what, but it seemed like everything was rushed and sloppy. It was a good show, but not what I was expecting from WrestleMania 25.

[Juan]

Seems like Cena winning the WHC has taken a back seat to the Triple H hate

[The Show Off]

Glad I'm not the only one who thought it wasn't horrible.

As for the quick finish, they were really close to going the full four hours (I think it ended at 10:59) and I suppose they had to cut the main event some, which is a bit ridiculous considering some of the filler.

You didn't like the 5 song medly that Kid Rock played or the fact that Mickey Rourke had to talk to Frank Shamrock for a few minutes before deciding to get in the ring with Jericho?

The main event should have been like 5 minutes longer but nothing I can complain about it was like 24 minutes as it was.

I don't know how people are thinking Orton looked weak in that match. He backdropped HHH through a table and hit two RKO's and would have beaten HHH if the ref wasn't out. Then it took HHH a sledgehammer to beat Orton. Was it the perfect match I was expecting? No, they could have done better. Did they stink up the joint? No, they still have more matches ledt for their feud we all know that this is going to Hell in a Cell at like Judgment Day or something and if Orton doesn't get the rub there I'll be with you guys in your furosity.

As for right now I'm happy, Wrestlemania had 5 good matches in it and the other 3 were either too short to matter or were made entertaining by seeing two of my favorites of all time (Jericho & Steamboat) go at it.

Perhaps I'm just easier to please.

[Xero]

Seems like Cena winning the WHC has taken a back seat to the Triple H hate

That's only because the bigger issue is the fact that there are about 100 Cena clones running around Huston right now.

It's probably on CNN right now. I think they Attitude Adjusted half the city already.

[Xero]

Also, Punk winning seemed... Weird. Why they'd give him the MITB AGAIN after basically burying him as champion I do not understand.

Should have been MVP or Shelton's year.

[dablackguy]

That's only because the bigger issue is the fact that there are about 100 Cena clones running around Huston right now.



That was every true wrestling fan's worst nightmare

The marks citing that this is just H hate need to stop. How is it that the majority of people here (and a good portion of the live crowd it seems) understand that this was the time to make Orton the star they've wanted him to be. Instead, Vince took the ball and threw it in the garbage.

I side with WWKD here. What can they do tomorrow night on RAW that establishes Orton as a credible threat to HHH? Storyline wise, the feud is over. HHH defended the honor of his family and kicked the shit out of Orton. The feud can't really go anywhere else and Orton can't gain back the months of buildup.

[Kane86]

Also, Punk winning seemed... Weird. Why they'd give him the MITB AGAIN after basically burying him as champion I do not understand.

Should have been MVP or Shelton's year.

KANE GOT FUUCKED OVER!!!!!!!:foc:

[Kane86]

I am leaving it spelled like that!

[Xero]

That was every true wrestling fan's worst nightmare

The marks citing that this is just H hate need to stop. How is it that the majority of people here (and a good portion of the live crowd it seems) understand that this was the time to make Orton the star they've wanted him to be. Instead, Vince took the ball and threw it in the garbage.

I side with WWKD here. What can they do tomorrow night on RAW that establishes Orton as a credible threat to HHH? Storyline wise, the feud is over. HHH defended the honor of his family and kicked the shit out of Orton. The feud can't really go anywhere else and Orton can't gain back the months of buildup.


You're right, Orton was buried. I will not deny that (though he isn't destroyed). But from a "classic" storyline standpoint, it makes complete sense for Triple H to go over.

[Juan]

You're right, Orton was buried. I will not deny that (though he isn't destroyed). But from a "classic" storyline standpoint, it makes complete sense for Triple H to go over.

Exactly.

[The Show Off]

You're right, Orton was buried. I will not deny that (though he isn't destroyed). But from a "classic" storyline standpoint, it makes complete sense for Triple H to go over.

What Xero said

[The Show Off]

Exactly.

What Juan said.

[Xero]

And by the way, you want to talk about "marks", look who's looking at one side of the table. You're Orton marks, that's your problem.

(Obviously directed at dablackguy...)

[Loose Cannon]

You didn't like the 5 song medly that Kid Rock played or the fact that Mickey Rourke had to talk to Frank Shamrock for a few minutes before deciding to get in the ring with Jericho?

The main event should have been like 5 minutes longer but nothing I can complain about it was like 24 minutes as it was.

I don't know how people are thinking Orton looked weak in that match. He backdropped HHH through a table and hit two RKO's and would have beaten HHH if the ref wasn't out. Then it took HHH a sledgehammer to beat Orton. Was it the perfect match I was expecting? No, they could have done better. Did they stink up the joint? No, they still have more matches ledt for their feud we all know that this is going to Hell in a Cell at like Judgment Day or something and if Orton doesn't get the rub there I'll be with you guys in your furosity.

As for right now I'm happy, Wrestlemania had 5 good matches in it and the other 3 were either too short to matter or were made entertaining by seeing two of my favorites of all time (Jericho & Steamboat) go at it.

Perhaps I'm just easier to please.


Orton has yet to get the rub in big matches. What are people going to watch more, Wrestlemania or Judgement Day? who the hell cares about Judgement Day. Yea, I always see lots of Judgement Day matches being played during the WWE highlight packages. More casual fans tune into Wrestlemania and you would think this is the PPV to put the most emphasis on your younger superstars and put them over.


I have no problem with Triple H as champion. I have a problem with him getting the rub in these high profile matches when he doesn't even need it. He's been there, done that.

[Damian Rey]

What can they do tomorrow night on RAW that establishes Orton as a credible threat to HHH? Storyline wise, the feud is over. HHH defended the honor of his family and kicked the shit out of Orton. The feud can't really go anywhere else and Orton can't gain back the months of buildup.

Agreed. Everything Orton has been built to be has been wasted. It took them 3 months to make Orton a monster heel, and it took them 23 minutes to kill all momentum. I'm sure Orton will get the strap eventually, but tonight could have been special.

I honestly though Christian had MITB. The crowd got hot when he was up the ladder by himself. Punk's win was very underwhelming.

[Damian Rey]

I have a problem with him getting the rub in these high profile matches when he doesn't even need it. He's been there, done that.

:y:

[Juan]

I dunno, I find it hard to believe that they would invest so much time and money into Orton to drop it just like that. I'm sure they have something big planned for him

[Dorkchop]

Storyline wise it makes sense. I was rooting for Orton because WWE has built him up so well since he returned from his injury.

[James Steele]

I also love how you people seem to think Triple H booked himself to win, when it isn't his call. Yes, Orton winning would have been huge but then most of you would bitch anyway about him looking weak or the heel wining at WrestleMania.

Anyway, I think HBK/Taker left everybody so exhausted that the title matches were doomed to be above average.

[Xero]

There's still the possible swerve with the McMahons turning on Triple H and siding with Orton.

If you get that, come back and tell me how great that's going. :y:

[Jeez]

I dunno, I find it hard to believe that they would invest so much time and money into Orton to drop it just like that. I'm sure they have something big planned for him

It doesn't get much bigger than tonight.

[Damian Rey]

I dunno, I find it hard to believe that they would invest so much time and money into Orton to drop it just like that. I'm sure they have something big planned for him

Again, I think Orton will get eventually go over and get the strap. And I get that Triple H winning and beating the man who was out for his family is a "classic" finish, and adds a new dimension to H that he's never really had.

BUT...no matter what they do with Orton, it will not make up for losing at Mania. Tonight was his night to be made, and they blew it.

[Juan]

I don't really think Orton needs to be *MADE* anymore though. He's past that. He's already a legit star.

[Xero]

Orton was fucked years ago.

If they can build it to this point once they can build it again.

And Juan makes a good point, Orton is already made.

[dablackguy]

And by the way, you want to talk about "marks", look who's looking at one side of the table. You're Orton marks, that's your problem.

(Obviously directed at dablackguy...)


Not really

I recognize that he's arguably the best thing RAW has had going in the last few months (Its either him or Jericho and the other is number 2)

The best thing I can relate it to is the Booker T/HHH feud back around 2003 and the whole "guys like you don't win the world title" remark. The buildup was ultimately pointless given the outcome. Its like Vince decides he wants to make Orton a star and then gets talked out of it.

I can't even say I truly hate HHH. I don't love the guy, however I don't mind him in good feuds. Yeah, in the "classic" sense it fit, but we're not talking about HHH vs Edge (someone who wouldn't have lost much steam doing the job) I like Orton but I'm not going to do the markish thing: throw a fit and say I'm not watching anymore cause Orton didn't win. Honestly, how can you say it wouldn't have been the best thing for the company? You admit that Orton got buried; how does this serve the company with regard to its most over young wrestler? That's the main issue, the fact that its HHH (given the supposed repuation) doesn't help in the eyes of a lot of people imo

[Loose Cannon]

I wish Triple H would of won with help from the McMahons tonight giving the impression that Orton got screwed over. Book that with Orton out wrestling HHH the entire night and you actually give Orton a bit of a rub without him actually winning.

[The Show Off]

Orton has yet to get the rub in big matches. What are people going to watch more, Wrestlemania or Judgement Day? who the hell cares about Judgement Day. Yea, I always see lots of Judgement Day matches being played during the WWE highlight packages. More casual fans tune into Wrestlemania and you would think this is the PPV to put the most emphasis on your younger superstars and put them over.


I have no problem with Triple H as champion. I have a problem with him getting the rub in these high profile matches when he doesn't even need it. He's been there, done that.

Randy Orton beat John Cena and Triple H at...

...drum roll please...

LAST WRESTLEMANIA!!!

(the crowd goes wild)

That's a pretty fucking big rub...

I know you wanted to see Orton win tonight... I did too. Buthim losing tonight doesn't mean his career is over or he'll never be over again or even that he lost all his momentum. Triple H won the match because at the biggest show of the year you want to send the marks home happy. And marks want to see the bad guy lose.

I don't want to be a jerk about this. You're entitled to your opinion. But in my opinion the finish was good.

[Loose Cannon]

I don't really think Orton needs to be *MADE* anymore though. He's past that. He's already a legit star.

you think he can draw money on his own right now? Without HBK, Taker, HHH, or Cena on the other side?

[Xero]

Not really

I recognize that he's arguably the best thing RAW has had going in the last few months (Its either him or Jericho and the other is number 2)

The best thing I can relate it to is the Booker T/HHH feud back around 2003 and the whole "guys like you don't win the world title" remark. The buildup was ultimately pointless given the outcome. Its like Vince decides he wants to make Orton a star and then gets talked out of it.

I can't even say I truly hate HHH. I don't love the guy, however I don't mind him in good feuds. Yeah, in the "classic" sense it fit, but we're not talking about HHH vs Edge (someone who wouldn't have lost much steam doing the job) I like Orton but I'm not going to do the markish thing: throw a fit and say I'm not watching anymore cause Orton didn't win. Honestly, how can you say it wouldn't have been the best thing for the company? You admit that Orton got buried; how does this serve the company with regard to its most over young wrestler? That's the main issue, the fact that its HHH (given the supposed repuation) doesn't help in the eyes of a lot of people imo



I never said it wouldn't be the best thing for the company for Orton to go over. It would have been. But Triple H going over is not the end of Orton.

Again, it makes sense from a storyline standpoint and that's my main point here.

[dablackguy]

Anyway, I think HBK/Taker left everybody so exhausted that the title matches were doomed to be above average.

I do think there's some merit to that statement

[Damian Rey]

I don't really think Orton needs to be *MADE* anymore though. He's past that. He's already a legit star.

Agreed. But he has never gotten that epic victory.

IMHO, he's at a turning point in his career. He's entering his prime, and has never been as good as he is now. With his buildup, he NEEDED this win. H going over negated everything Orton has done.

On a side note, I'm very surprised we didn't see ANY color in this match. I was calling it for Orton to be crimson by the end of the match.

[Juan]

you think he can draw money on his own right now? Without HBK, Taker, HHH, or Cena on the other side?

It's hard to tell since those 5 have been basically only wrestling each other over the past 2 years or so.

[James Steele]

you think he can draw money on his own right now? Without HBK, Taker, HHH, or Cena on the other side?

That is an absurd statement LC. Who in WWE right now is draw by themselves? Hell, who in the history of wrestling was a draw just by themselves.

[Loose Cannon]

All the guys I just mentioned

[The Show Off]

Agreed. But he has never gotten that epic victory.

IMHO, he's at a turning point in his career. He's entering his prime, and has never been as good as he is now. With his buildup, he NEEDED this win. H going over negated everything Orton has done.

On a side note, I'm very surprised we didn't see ANY color in this match. I was calling it for Orton to be crimson by the end of the match.

Orton beat Cena & HHH at last years Wrestlemania

If you forgot that then Wrestlemania isn't as big of a deal as your making it out to be.

[James Steele]

All the guys I just mentioned

You are full of shit.

[Xero]

Heels don't draw anyway. The faces they feud with draw.

[Juan]

Orton beat Cena & HHH at last years Wrestlemania

If you forgot that then Wrestlemania isn't as big of a deal as your making it out to be.

Exactly. Plus, No Mercy 2007 anyone???

[dablackguy]

I never said it wouldn't be the best thing for the company for Orton to go over. It would have been. But Triple H going over is not the end of Orton.

Again, it makes sense from a storyline standpoint and that's my main point here.

You admit that he buried Orton and say its not the end of Orton.

Fair enough, but its a MASSIVE leap backwards

[Loose Cannon]

You are full of shit.

what? who do you think is drawing in the fans right now?

[Xero]

You admit that he buried Orton and say its not the end of Orton.

Fair enough, but its a MASSIVE leap backwards

Buried doesn't always mean entirely.

It's a leap backwards, but not a massive one.

[dablackguy]

Orton beat Cena & HHH at last years Wrestlemania

If you forgot that then Wrestlemania isn't as big of a deal as your making it out to be.

And then got stepped on the next night when HHH asked him what big move it was he hit to retain the title. That win didn't do nearly as much for Orton as you may be thinking.

[The Show Off]

Orton beat Cena & HHH at last years Wrestlemania

If you forgot that then Wrestlemania isn't as big of a deal as your making it out to be.

And clean I may add.

[Loose Cannon]

Heels don't draw anyway. The faces they feud with draw.

I agree, but the faces are the ones that usually build the heels up, to where those heels soon become the top babyfaces.

[The Show Off]

And then got stepped on the next night when HHH asked him what big move it was he hit to retain the title. That win didn't do nearly as much for Orton as you may be thinking.

You mean aside from being the #1 heel in the company?

Honestly Orton has been the most over heel for the past year except when he was out with injury.

[James Steele]

what? who do you think is drawing in the fans right now?

All of them collectively as they have their feuds and matches. This isn't the 1980s anymore, and a one man show isn't a drawing show.

[Xero]

What I'm gathering from this thread is the ONLY way for Orton to get over and "get made" is to win at WrestleMania. Bullshit. If Orton comes out of the second half of this feud dominating he will be huge.

You have to remember that things are different now and WrestleMania is rarely the end of long-term feuds anymore.

[The Show Off]

Might I add it feels so weird being on the side of Xero & James Steel and against Loose Cannon after reading all those Kliq/Bret Hart threads.

[dablackguy]

Buried doesn't always mean entirely.

It's a leap backwards, but not a massive one.


I agreed with you on it not destroying Orton. But given the outcome and manner of it, nothing makes him look like a threat to HHH. This is my point.

[Juan]

I agreed with you on it not destroying Orton. But given the outcome and manner of it, nothing makes him look like a threat to HHH. This is my point.

Not even beating him cleanly for the title?

[Loose Cannon]

All of them collectively as they have their feuds and matches. This isn't the 1980s anymore, and a one man show isn't a drawing show.

duh, of course it's collectively. With 3 brands and 3 shows, you'd be a moron to think one guy is going to get it done. My point was that Orton still is not on the level of those guys and his matches really aren't a draw without those guys on the other side. But he definately could be

[dablackguy]

You mean aside from being the #1 heel in the company?

Honestly Orton has been the most over heel for the past year except when he was out with injury.


So you don't think this takes anything at all away from Orton?

[James Steele]

God, you people will find any reason to bitch about Triple H. It isn't 2003 anymore.

[dablackguy]

Not even beating him cleanly for the title?

At this current point in time. Also, with regards to RAW tomorrow

[James Steele]

duh, of course it's collectively. With 3 brands and 3 shows, you'd be a moron to think one guy is going to get it done. My point was that Orton still is not on the level of those guys and his matches really aren't a draw without those guys on the other side. But he definately could be

That might have something to do with the fact he just isn't as good as those guys. Orton has improved 1000% since 04, but he isn't as good of a wrestler as any of the true main eventers.

[Loose Cannon]

God, you people will find any reason to bitch about Triple H. It isn't 2003 anymore.

lol, how ironic

you're right, this isn't 2003, yet the guy is still walking out of Mania with the belt.

[dablackguy]

What I'm gathering from this thread is the ONLY way for Orton to get over and "get made" is to win at WrestleMania. Bullshit. If Orton comes out of the second half of this feud dominating he will be huge.





So why put it off? If you're going to make the star, why not do it at the biggest show of the year? That's like having Austin job to HBK and winning the title at Judgement Day.

I'm not arguing your logic, I follow where you're coming from, just questioning the E's logic

[RGWhat316]

I wouldnt even be that upset with Orton losing if it wasnt for history. HHH has proven time and time again that Orton should not make him look weak in any matter. HHH has beaten him on numerous ppvs. And the time that Orton actually did beat HHH for the titie, was when HHH already had 3 matches that night. Orton can only recover so many times from getting buried. Its becoming a pattern that whenever Orton gets built up, he will get knocked down.

[James Steele]

lol, how ironic

you're right, this isn't 2003, yet the guy is still walking out of Mania with the belt.

He is still one of the best in the business and a draw, so what is there to complain about? Other than Evil Paul booking himself to win the main event because we all know Triple H really runs the show!

I agree that Orton winning would have been a positive, but this isn't the end of Orton's career or any chance of him being "the man" since I honestly don't believe Orton is talented enough to be "the man".

[James Steele]

I wouldnt even be that upset with Orton losing if it wasnt for history. HHH has proven time and time again that Orton should not make him look weak in any matter. HHH has beaten him on numerous ppvs. And the time that Orton actually did beat HHH for the titie, was when HHH already had 3 matches that night. Orton can only recover so many times from getting buried. Its becoming a pattern that whenever Orton gets built up, he will get knocked down.

It is called being a good heel (now), or a shitty babyface (04).

[The Show Off]

So you don't think this takes anything at all away from Orton?

No. Heels are in the buisness to lose.

Randy Orton has no more taken away from him than Andre had taken away from him after Wrestlemania 3...

or Savage after Wrestlemania 5...

or Flair after Wrestlemania 8...

or Yokozuna after Wrestlemania 9 & 10...

or Michaels after Wrestlemania 11 & 14...

or The Rock after Wrestlemania 15...

or Angle after Wrestlemania 19...

or Triple H after Wrestlemania 20, 21, & 22...

or Edge after Wrestlemania 24.

[Xero]

No. Heels are in the buisness to lose.
QFT

[The Show Off]

So why put it off? If you're going to make the star, why not do it at the biggest show of the year? That's like having Austin job to HBK and winning the title at Judgement Day.

I'm not arguing your logic, I follow where you're coming from, just questioning the E's logic

There's a world of diffrence between Austin at Wrestlemania XIV and Orton at Wrestlemania XXV.

That big difference is that Austin was a face Orton is a heel...

Heels lose on the big stage its the rule of the buisness.

[Loose Cannon]

What I'm gathering from this thread is the ONLY way for Orton to get over and "get made" is to win at WrestleMania. Bullshit. If Orton comes out of the second half of this feud dominating he will be huge.

You have to remember that things are different now and WrestleMania is rarely the end of long-term feuds anymore.

I understand where you are coming from, but can we agree that Mania is the biggest PPV of the year?

They book Orton to win the Rumble, they book Orton to take out the McMahons. They book HHH to come back and avenge the McMahons.

To me, Orton has to come out looking like the winner, and that doesn't have to mean actually winning the match. But he should of at least been made to look above HHH on the biggest stage

And you're right, Mania does not end things anymore, but it's still Mania. And when they seemed intent on giving Orton a huge push, this match really could of helped progress that push on a big way. It hindered it....yet again, rather then helping it. That's all I'm saying

[dablackguy]

There's a world of diffrence between Austin at Wrestlemania XIV and Orton at Wrestlemania XXV.

That big difference is that Austin was a face Orton is a heel...

Heels lose on the big stage its the rule of the buisness.

A. You agreed he got buried but then say he loses nothing from it. Ok.....

B. You're looking too deep into it. The main idea is if you're going to make the star do it on the big stage. Perhaps they could have built Orton up as a tweener or maybe teased the turn, I dk how they should have done it.

[RGWhat316]

There's a world of diffrence between Austin at Wrestlemania XIV and Orton at Wrestlemania XXV.

That big difference is that Austin was a face Orton is a heel...

Heels lose on the big stage its the rule of the buisness.

I would agree with that, but who was one of the first people to break that tradition of faces winning??? HHH in 2000. But even The Rock was booked better that year due to the McMahons screwing him over.

[The Show Off]

or Triple H after Wrestlemania 20, 21, & 22...


I just thought that should be isolated...

Big Bad Triple H hadn't won at Wrestlemania since 2003... yeah 6 years ago.

[Loose Cannon]

and yes, all you guys are correct in saying this isn't the end of Orton's career. But the bookers or whomever need to start getting off thier asses and start putting guys on the levels of HBK, HHH and Taker, because they won't be around for much longer.

[James Steele]

I just thought that should be isolated...

Big Bad Triple H hadn't won at Wrestlemania since 2003... yeah 6 years ago.

He still didn't put Batista over. Batista could be one of the biggest stars in WWE...oh wait

[The Show Off]

A. You agreed he got buried but then say he loses nothing from it. Ok.....

B. You're looking too deep into it. The main idea is if you're going to make the star do it on the big stage. Perhaps they could have built Orton up as a tweener or maybe teased the turn, I dk how they should have done it.

I never said that he got buried I agreed with a quote by Xero which had more than just the "he got buried" part which was the part I was agreeing with.

[dablackguy]

I'm with LC on this is part of the problem

The business 101 is that established guys put over the yuong stars to help them gain credibilty, we don't see much of it here, sadly

[RGWhat316]

Storyline-wise you can say HHH is supposed to win to avenge what happened with his family. But in the early part of the storyline, they said Orton needed to avenge what happened in 2004, and the broken collarbone from last year. Wrestlemania is supposed to be the place where the person chasing the title finally wins it, but that did not happen now.

[The Show Off]

I would agree with that, but who was one of the first people to break that tradition of faces winning??? HHH in 2000. But even The Rock was booked better that year due to the McMahons screwing him over.

And now name me what other heel won in the main even of Wrestlemania...

[James Steele]

Steve Austin the very next year at X-Seven (nobody bitched then) and John Cena in 2006 and 2007

[dablackguy]

The Xero quote:

You're right, Orton was buried. I will not deny that (though he isn't destroyed). But from a "classic" storyline standpoint, it makes complete sense for Triple H to go over.

Although like you said, if he doesn't go over in the near future, you'll join us in our "furiousity"

See you in 2 or 3 months? lol

[Fignuts]

I think all you kliq guys are missing the point entirely. People aren't hating on the finish just because Triple H won. You said yourself, this isn't 2003 anymore. People don't like it, because Triple H winning, really doesn't accomplish anything. Orton has been a great heel the past year, but he still doesn't seem like a threat on the same level as HHH, Cena, HBK, and the other top guys. Beating HHH at mania would have changed that.

And yeah, the feud will continue, and he will probably beat HHH for the title, but it won't have the same effect. As WWKD said, mania makes stars. It pushes people to a new level, in a way that other ppv's can't.

If you can't see that....if you can't see that people are dissapointed with the backwards thinking booking of the finish, and not triple h himself, then you need to get your head out of his ass.

[dablackguy]

Steve Austin the very next year at X-Seven (nobody bitched then) and John Cena in 2006 and 2007


Austin went in face, to be fair


Cena can't even be judged in those terms, Vince books him as a face. Most of us fans however treat him otherwise

[The Show Off]

Steve Austin the very next year at X-Seven (nobody bitched then) and John Cena in 2006 and 2007

Austin was the face going in to that match.

John Cena was supposed to be the face at least in those matches.

[Juan]

and yes, all you guys are correct in saying this isn't the end of Orton's career. But the bookers or whomever need to start getting off thier asses and start putting guys on the levels of HBK, HHH and Taker, because they won't be around for much longer.

I agree with that.

[James Steele]

I think all you kliq guys are missing the point entirely. People aren't hating on the finish just because Triple H won. You said yourself, this isn't 2003 anymore. People don't like it, because Triple H winning, really doesn't accomplish anything. Orton has been a great heel the past year, but he still doesn't seem like a threat on the same level as HHH, Cena, HBK, and the other top guys. Beating HHH at mania would have changed that.

And yeah, the feud will continue, and he will probably beat HHH for the title, but it won't have the same effect. As WWKD said, mania makes stars. It pushes people to a new level, in a way that other ppv's can't.

If you can't see that....if you can't see that people are dissapointed with the backwards thinking booking of the finish, and not triple h himself, then you need to get your head out of his ass.

I have stated that Orton winning would have been a good thing (hell I was shocked he didn't), but points have been brought up that this is the end of Randy Orton and somehow it is always Triple H who screws him out of a big win and now he has been robbed of the career making "WrestleMania moment" win despite him beating Cena and HHH just last year clean.

[The Show Off]

I'm going to say this one more time...

Randy Orton defeated John Cena AND Triple H at Wrestlemania 24.

CLEANLY!

That was his rub...

That was where his star was made...

On the biggest stage of them all.

[Juan]

I have stated that Orton winning would have been a good thing (hell I was shocked he didn't), but points have been brought up that this is the end of Randy Orton and somehow it is always Triple H who screws him out of a big win and now he has been robbed of the career making "WrestleMania moment" win despite him beating Cena and HHH just last year clean.

Exactly.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

yeah has everyone forgotten WM 24?

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/PPVReports/2004/12/18/orton_wm24.jpg

[Juan]

I'm going to say this one more time...

Randy Orton defeated John Cena AND Triple H at Wrestlemania 24.

CLEANLY!

That was his rub...

That was where his star was made...

On the biggest stage of them all.

EXACTLY!

[James Steele]

It isn't Vince's fault Randy Orton can't take advantage of all the oppurtunities to be "the man" he has been given.

[Fignuts]

Winning a triple threat match, and beating triple h one-on-one, especially the way the triple h/orton fued has been booked, are two very different things.

Look at all the guys who won the title at mania in a triple threat match. Mysterio, Benoit. wow, they sure stayed in main event for a long time, didn't they? I think they both were fighting for the us title 6 months after they won at mania.


So no juan. Not EXACTLY.

[RGWhat316]

I'm going to say this one more time...

Randy Orton defeated John Cena AND Triple H at Wrestlemania 24.

CLEANLY!

That was his rub...

That was where his star was made...

On the biggest stage of them all.
I will agree to a point. But that was not the main event, and triple threats are booked to which anyone can get a pinfall. This was a bigger match situation, and Orton didnt get it done.

But even last year, Orton was not getting as big of a rub as he was this year. As champion, he cheated or barely made it through his matches. Jeff was really the only one he beat clean.

Now this year, Orton has much more momentum. He wins the Royal Rumble, he takes out the McMahon family, hes never looked stronger. Just something like this seems to kill his credibilty. Not to mention his past with HHH proves that he cant beat HHH.

[Fignuts]

It isn't Vince's fault Randy Orton can't take advantage of all the oppurtunities to be "the man" he has been given.

He's been outstanding the past year. And to my knowledge he hasn't shit in anyone's personal belongings lately. So what exactly is the justification for that comment?

[Juan]

Winning a triple threat match, and beating triple h one-on-one, especially the way the triple h/orton fued has been booked, are two very different things.

Look at all the guys who won the title at mania in a triple threat match. Mysterio, Benoit. wow, they sure stayed in main event for a long time, didn't they? I think they both were fighting for the us title 6 months after they won at mania.


So no juan. Not EXACTLY.

Yeah but it's been a year since the triple threat match, and Randy Orton is STILL one of the top heels in the company, and to my knowledge hasn't competed for anything but the WWE title since.

[James Steele]

He's been outstanding the past year. And to my knowledge he hasn't shit in anyone's personal belongings lately. So what exactly is the justification for that comment?

Randy Orton isn't good enough to be "the man" in WWE.

[Fignuts]

He's been pushed into the role of top heel before, yes. But it always seemed kind of forced, and he never seemed quite on the same level as the guys he was up against. At least not to me, and it seems many other posters here. The past 6 months or so have been the first time that orton has been booked in such a way that he seemed like he could beat anyone. Unstoppable.

And yeah, I agree that the comments about orton being completely finished are exaggerating, but this did kill his momentum, and it will take a while for him to believeably get it back again. He can't just come out and beat HHH next week, cause it will feel forced, just like most of his time in the main event.

[James Steele]

He was the whole reason for Evolution, and then was cemented by Mick Foley. Randy Orton then became the youngest World Champion by beating Chris Benoit at the 2nd largest show of the year, but maybe instead of Triple H beating him just to be Evil Paul, Vince McMahon realized that Randy Orton wasn't ready in the ring or on the microphone to be "the man". Randy Orton was then given a huge program with Undertaker, but of course he still wasn't made. Randy Orton was then moved to SmackDown! where he was one of the headliners at WrestleMania 22, but of course he wasn't made then either (he also wrestled Hulk Hogan at SummerSlam in 06, but he lost so of course he wouldn't have been made).Rated RKO vs DX was a good program (he was in the MITB match, but he didn't win so he wasn't made then either). Then from the October of 2007 until Backlash of 2008, he was WWE Champion. Of course, at WrestleMania XXIV he beat Triple H and John Cena to retain his title. Of course, that doesn't matter because he lost at Backlash...so it pissed all over him and he wasn't a star. Then he got injured, and was out for awhile. Upon Randy's return, he had a short thing with Batista and went onto to hot streak he has been on until TRIPLE H SHAT ALL OVER HIM.

What fucking more does Randy Orton need to be solidified as one of the top stars in WWE? He is already a top star in the WWE, and will be the future of the company but he will never be "the torchbearer' because his mic work isn't good enough to play a babyface and his ring work is still not on the same level as HHH, HBK, Taker, etc.

[Fignuts]

That's just what I mean though. He's always been booked inconsistently. He'll be in a major program with someone, then his momentum gets killed off. This was the longest period of time in which he looked like he could believably beat anyone, and this win could have cemented that as permanent. But like always, they've stopped his momentum yet again. Just the way I see it.

[James Steele]

That's just what I mean though. He's always been booked inconsistently. He'll be in a major program with someone, then his momentum gets killed off. This was the longest period of time in which he looked like he could believably beat anyone, and this win could have cemented that as permanent. But like always, they've stopped his momentum yet again. Just the way I see it.

Do you want him to be booked like Goldberg for a year or something?

[Fignuts]

No I want him to be booked like he has been recently, except add in an actual payoff.

[James Steele]

No I want him to be booked like he has been recently, except add in an actual payoff.

So, you are upset that the heel didn't win the main event against the face after 3 months of beating up old men, women, and being a chickenshit heel who never really got his comeuppance until the "blowoff match"?

[Fignuts]

Also, I don't want to hear anything about Orton not being good enough. He's on the same level talent-wise as Batista, Edge, and Cena. None of those guys are on the same level as HHH, HBK, or Taker from a talent aspect. But they could walk into an event and beat them believably, because of how they were pushed into the main event. That was the key. Not their actual talent, but the process that took them to the top.

[James Steele]

Also, I don't want to hear anything about Orton not being good enough. He's on the same level talent-wise as Batista, Edge, and Cena. None of those guys are on the same level as HHH, HBK, or Taker from a talent aspect. But they could walk into an event and beat them believably, because of how they were pushed into the main event. That was the key. Not their actual talent, but the process that took them to the top.

When the hell has Edge gotten a clean "payoff" win?

[Fignuts]

So, you are upset that the heel didn't win the main event against the face after 3 months of beating up old men, women, and being a chickenshit heel who never really got his comeuppance until the "blowoff match"?

It's already been mentioned that the fued wasn't one-sided. Triple H struck back several times. And in this case yeah, that's what I want. Because orton, and the fued as a whole stood much more to gain from winning than triple h did.

Kills orton's momentum. Kill's the fued's momentum. Orton winning would have given them a great way to keep the fued going, as now the face has to cahse the heel for the belt. And with orton having a victory over him at the biggest stage of them all, would have made orton seem even more of challenge, and stack the odds even higher against triple h.

Logically, it just seems the best option, unless they planned to just drop this fued at mania. Which in itself, wouldn't make a lot of sense.

[James Steele]

It's already been mentioned that the fued wasn't one-sided. Triple H struck back several times. And in this case yeah, that's what I want. Because orton, and the fued as a whole stood much more to gain from winning than triple h did.

Kills orton's momentum. Kill's the fued's momentum. Orton winning would have given them a great way to keep the fued going, as now the face has to cahse the heel for the belt. And with orton having a victory over him at the biggest stage of them all, would have made orton seem even more of challenge, and stack the odds even higher against triple h.

Logically, it just seems the best option, unless they planned to just drop this fued at mania. Which in itself, wouldn't make a lot of sense.

I won't speculate since the draft is in a week, but I agree that Orton was the better choice. I just don't think Orton is a poor victim who hasn't ever been given a fair shake in booking.

[James Steele]

We are arguing how much this will affect Orton, and we'll know soon enough.

[Tazz Dan]

FFS. HHH winning was hardly the worst thing that could happen. It keeps the fued, which has ben HOT running though to Backlash. Get the fuck over it.

[The Optimist]

I knew Shawn would lose. I figured Randy would win. Strange.

That match was boring and wierd though. I figured it would be boring, but for a Wrestlemania main event there was no epic twist or even any real story line conclusion.

[.44 Magdalene]

Am I the only one who didn't see this going anywhere to begin with?

If Orton won, we'd get another month or two of main event Orton before Vince switches prescriptions and suddenly thinks Orton's not ready again. He'll dump Orton off somewhere down the card, Legacy will fade quietly into the night, and either Rhodes or Dibiase (whichever has the most actual potential) will get fired while the other wins the ECW championship or something. Wait a year or so, and we'll repeat the great Randy Orton: Is He, Or Isn't He cycle again.

Or alternatively, Trips wins, the big beltholders resume being HHH and Cena, and we find ourselves having trouble keeping track of what year it is.

[KaliKot]

All I remember from this match was that it was a snoozefest and when I turn the tab back to the stream HHH was already hitting the pedigree so i was like

WTF, it looked to me as another HHH burying...

I really dont see how this was the main event. I could care less for Orton and I'm not even a mark for him.

In contrast, HBK Taker took me to the edge of my seat even if I only had 2 hours of sleep and I never took my eyes away. I don't see how HHH Orton became the main event because it absolutely dozed me off

It was slow, plodding, flat and hell I think it was even worse than the Taker/Big Show matches last year which were actually pretty decent

[Ruien]

Okay, did I miss this complete badass thing over the past couple months? He stopped being a badass once Shane came out and kicked his ass.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Randy Orton should have won the match. There was enough face pay-offs in the evening. A shocking victory for Orton would not have turned fans away. It could have been used to generate interest. For example, as predictable as it would have been, the image of Randy Orton and Stephanie McMahon making out while Orton holds the WWE Title in the air to close Mania would have been fucking epic. "Holy FUCK! Triple H is going to KILL THEM!" could have been the generated response.

Triple H going over does nothing except inflate the man's ego a little bit, and send the fans home with a story concluded. Sure, it might keep going, but does anyone really want to see what happens next? Every story needs to wrap-up, but if this is not the wrap-up they seem to have gone the wrong way about it. The good guy won. He got to beat up the bad guy and his lackies a lot, and now he's got the title and the bragging rights.

What bothers me about the finish to this match, is that it just wasn't interesting or exciting. Also, Triple H just isn't going to draw. People know who he is. He's walked out of WrestleMania with the belt in 2000, 2002 and 2003. It didn't do much for business. Yes, Orton left WrestleMania XXIV WWE Champion, but that was in an undercard Triple Threat.

The booking of this feud was pretty obvious. Orton gets one over The Game on the grandest stage of them all -- Triple H isn't happy, Orton mocks him and says it's over, Triple H gets drafted to RAW, Orton shits himself. Eventually it goes to Hell in a Cell, where Triple H wins the title after some assist from Batista, who returns and continues his feud with Orton. Eventually you get a Triple Threat between Trips, Orton and Dave. Hell, Shawn Michaels could get in there, and spice things up a little. That's your summer main event program booked.

Hopefully the WWE has something else interesting in store. I'm now hoping it involves Triple H staying on SmackDown!, and keeping the WWE Title over there.

[Fox]

Heels don't draw anyway. The faces they feud with draw.

http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg


Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen Xero post.

[Krimzon7]

You guys are missing the BIG PICTURE...What the fuck happened to the Tag Team Unification match??? HBK lite wasn't on the show. That may have been too much awesome for Houston.

[dablackguy]

The sense among some is that Orton isn't ready to be the man. Personally, I don't agree. My question though: What the hell is with the bi-polar booking?

I mean, I do think there is an element of shitty booking here to be considered. The way the feud was set up, if face HHH won, it concludes the feud and he has avenged his family, which he casual fan would like to see.

If Orton won, the bad guy goes over and a star is born. The downside is that for a PG audiance, it probably sends the wrong message and leaves the casual fan with a bad taste in their mouth.

In hindsight, I think half assed booking is the second biggest issue for me. (The overall treatment of Orton in the match being number 1) They wanted to make Orton a star but left him heel, which from a storyline point hindered what they were trying to do. As is, I think we all agree that Orton going over made the most sense, but once again, the E got in their own way.

[7spike]

Very good thread.
A couple of things:

1. It seems like HHH is the only heel that is not a big man that is allowed to be 'dominant'. I don't have a problem with HHH being a dominant heel, but why can't other people be dominant? Bearing in mind that Orton was white hot since his return and looked to be 'dominant', why did he suddenly change character into a chickenshit? How come Edge can be treated as a big deal and he's supposedly a chickenshit?

2. I would have preferred Orton to win it, seeing as HHH has reached his peak and can no longer draw in 'new crowds', like other people have said. But if Orton were to lose, I believe he should have had a stronger showing, something more even perhaps.

3. Orton's career certainly isn't over, but I feel its unfair for people to say that he hasn't made the best of what he's given. In most of his bigger feuds, he's walked out of it the loser. Anytime he walked out the winner, he was 'catching on'. Maybe I'm saying something blatantly obvious...

4. I truly don't believe Orton coming out of nowhere to punt someone and steal their win win in an 'undercard' title match makes him. If last Wrestlemania's victory made him, then it's an underwhelming existence.

[The Mackem]

At first I was thinking, well it will help sell for Backlash and then I realised that I was looking at it wrong. If Orton the heel won then it would be the fans gunning for the face Triple H to reclaim at Backlash. Now it's like ummm wait now are we gunning for heel Orton to claim the title or is WM the culmination of the storyline. If it is the culmination of the storyline then Orton hasn't got much out of it except that fantastic couple of weeks where he was the biggest heel in a long time IMO. I don't know, guess we'll have to see how it plays out, if at all.

[Jeritron]

http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg


Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen Xero post.

We're dealing with a different time period, and a different demographic now. Whether you want to admit it or not, Cena HHH and Jeff Hardy are filling the seats and moving the merchandise.
Edge and Orton are just their foils. Just like Hogan-Piper
To be honest, it's a wonder they even get title reigns.

[Rock582]

put it this way. if orton does not win the title in the next month i cant continue watching wreslting, because i am so fed up with this constant asslicking of triple fucking h, thus making the best heel in the company fall back yet again. and as i watched the main event i thort 'surely vince cud take his head out of triple hs ass for just one dam nite', but no he cudnt. that really pissed me of.

[dablackguy]

English please, to above poster.


Regardless of who made the decision that HHH should go over (read: I'm not saying it was HHH) its still HHH's job to go out and protect one of the company's up and comers by not allowing him to look like complete shit.

Funny how HHH seems to have trouble dong that. Deliberate or not, you can't be considered a top star if guys come out of matches with you looking like that.

[Rock582]

yeh fair enough. can you not see that he cant carry the main event spot anymore.

[Krimzon7]

Whoa, I wouldn't say that now. I think that HHH Can still BE Main Event, but he should have done the job of making Orton look credible in that loss. I feel that Orton could have come out looking better.

[Rock582]

come on dude, he cant get the crowd going like he used to, yes my statement is abit over the top but in all respect i think its time for a new babyface to take his place, or turn him heel, just to make him more interesting instead of him always gettin one over everyone else.

[Haze]

I was disappointed that Orton lost, but I don't feel that this totally kills the momentum of the fued. It can easily be spun that Triple H HAD to CHEAT to beat Orton.

But there is no doubt in my mind that a clean win last night would have made Orton.

[Kane86]

Triple H and Orton was thrown in just to fill the void. After Micheals and Taker stole the whole fucking show they were like why even try?

[Xero]

http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg


Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen Xero post.

HUGE exception, not the rule.

[RGWhat316]

Everyone keeps claiming that HHH needed to win to avenge his family. Yet in the first promo in the feud, HHH said Orton needed to beat him to avenge what happened in 2004. He said this even after Stephanie had gotten the RKO. Plus as someone had said earlier, how is HHH saving the McMahons the feel good moment everyone was waiting for? The McMahons are not considered to be victims after all they have done to other people in the past.

[erickman]

We're dealing with a different time period, and a different demographic now. Whether you want to admit it or not, Cena HHH and Jeff Hardy are filling the seats and moving the merchandise.
Edge and Orton are just their foils. Just like Hogan-Piper
To be honest, it's a wonder they even get title reigns.

yea poor piper never got the world belt, and like piper said people watched wrestlemainia 1 to see hogan kick pipers ass.

[RatedGSuperstar]

While I think the match was pretty boring for a WrestleMania main event and left me with the "WTF? That's it?" feeling, I don't think it's safe to say that Orton was completely buried.

To beat Orton, HHH needed to punt him, hit him with a sledgehammer, and hit the Pedigree. I didn't necessarily see that as a burial, especially considering the sequence that happened right before that (Orton back body drop onto the table, then the sick DDT onto the floor). I was disappointed in the match and the result, but I'm expecting them to continue this feud to Backlash and maybe beyond.

[addy2hotty]

Let's be honest, the crowd were pretty dead after the Taker/Michaels match. It's always the same when you have a epic pre-main event match. Same with Jericho/HHH at 18.

Despite the fact that it was the only thing Raw had done recently, I really couldn't have given a shit about the match. It was clear when on last that Trips was going to win and both seemed ridiculously lethargic during the match. The whole 'finishing moves at the start' crap, it felt like the rehearsed Warrior/Hogan match all over again.

Thankfully, Mania had three really decent matches that will save it from being remembered as truly awful.

[RGWhat316]

And to the ones saying that Orton got the rub from last years WM, lets think about it. HHH pedigreed Cena, then Orton punted HHH. Orton then pinned Cena to win it. After being punted, HHH is out on RAW the very next night like nothing happened.

So Orton may have gotten a rub by winning and retaining last year. But he got nothing on HHH, and has never gotten any kind of rub from him. The only time Orton has beaten HHH for the title, is when HHH was on his 3rd match of the night. So it is same to say that HHH has never put over Orton.