It's Kind of Scary when you think about it

[Loose Cannon]

I got to thinking after all the discussion last night in that "Waste" thread about Orton and HHH's match.

I realized last night that with the final four matches, 7 out of the 9 participants were all products from the attitude era or before. And I'm talking about HBK/Taker, Jeff/Matt, The Triple Threat and HHH/Orton. If there was a match in between those, I apoligize.

Then throw in Jericho and the other legends and it's more guys who were among the best of the best 10 years ago or before.

I stopped and thought for a second, what if in 2000, guys like Ultimate Warrior, Earthquake, Jake Roberts, Rick Rude, Hulk Hogan, and Randy Savage were still involved in weekly TV and all over main PPV's in the WWF? These guys were all over WWF TV and PPV's in 1990.

And you can say, well what about HBK? He was wrestling for the WWF in 1990 and main eventing in 98? Well I'm talking about a 10 year period where guys from 1990, who were near or at the top of the card, were still at the same spot 10 years later.

And you can say, what about Hogan? I'm keeping this strickly WWF and when Hogan did come back in 2002, it was kind of a short nice run at the top and then he came back in spurts after that.

I will give you Taker though. Can't argue that one.


What's my point on all of this? Well that holy shit, it's 2009 and the same guys from 10 years ago or before are still the one's carrying the company on the big shows. Now, I am not saying these guys should not be there or that the matches suck because obviosuly if you watched last night, Taker and HBK tore the house down.

But how much longer can you rely on these guys to carry the show for you? When does the WWE start realizing that "oh shit, we better get these young guys on the levels of Taker, HHH, HBK, Jericho and others." They can't rely on Attitude era wrestlers and Hall of Famers to sell a show for much longer.

[7spike]

True.
I believe some of the people you mentioned are capable of carrying the company for a little longer. People like Taker, HBK and Jericho, to name a few.

It's extremely scary that everything seems so shortsighted now. I'm sure some will say that it's the wrestlers that are to blame for not stepping up or not having passion, but most people that seemed to be catching on (Orton, Punk, MVP) seem to be booked as minor-leagues in my opinion.

That and there has been no 'new-age' main event face that the majority can get behind. Cena and Batista are the only credible 'new-age' faces that I can think of and some would argue that both of them have something missing.

[Legend Killer]

i still think a statement was being made by HHH and Orton.

[Londoner]

Completely agree with you LC, been having similar thoughts myself. They need to start relying on now/the future rather than their past all the time.

[Loose Cannon]

True.
I believe some of the people you mentioned are capable of carrying the company for a little longer. People like Taker, HBK and Jericho, to name a few.

yes, they are capable. or better yet, they need to be capable right now.

[BigDaddyCool]

Did you include Bigshow and Edge?

[Jeritron]

It's not like the WWF chose to have Austin, Rock, Foley and HHH to start carrying the company. Everyone blew out the door and they had no choice.

[Loose Cannon]

Did you include Bigshow and Edge?

yea, The Triple Threat that I mentioned

[Jeritron]

Also, although Edge and The Hardys were around in tag team wrestling, I think including them is a stretch. They've elevated both of them, and they are relatively new stars as far as their singles success goes. Edge, in particular, has a good future and is just reaching his peak now.

[Loose Cannon]

It's not like the WWF chose to have Austin, Rock, Foley and HHH to start carrying the company. Everyone blew out the door and they had no choice.

yea, to be fair, I can't really blame booking 100%. You are right that it is partially the fault of the guys they push. but something just is not working now and days.

[Loose Cannon]

but Jeri, do you not think there has been a piss poor job done at creating new stars the last 7 years even? Whether it be the bookers fault or the wrestlers fault?

[Jeritron]

I just think it's the nature of things. It's not like Hogan, Savage, Warrior and all those guys slowly put over the new guys and faded out. They filtered out for one reason or another, and the WWF filled their spots. The show goes on.

I don't think you're wrong about the current climate gripping onto the attitude era. It is. But I also don't think it's anything new per se. I think it's the nature of things. They won't change until they have to.

But to be fair, people do seem to complain when they go for the next generation. What happens when Cena and Batista were put over at WM21? Everyone complained and started cheering for Angle and HHH to beat them.
I think people are spoiled and in a way, I think it's tough for new guys to truly take the throne if there's even an option to give up on them and go with the established guys.

[Jeritron]

The good thing is, a lot of guys have gone naturally. The turnover IS happening, whether they want it to or not. I think it'd be better if they prepared for it, but I think it's happening whether Vince embraces it or not. Either way it's a good thing.
HHH, HBM, and Taker are still around. But, the latter two guys are winding down in the next year or so.
Angle's gone. Foley's gone. Booker and RVD are gone. Austin and Rock are never coming back. JBL is done and Kane probably will be by years end too.

So, the times they are a changin, for sure.

[Krimzon7]

Great points. Jeritron. I think that the old guard is winding down. I don't see Taker, Michaels AND HHH at WM 27. There will be room at the top for the likes of MVP, Hardy, and some of the newer talent. There is also some substance to the fact that fans won't cheer for new blood wholeheatedly until they have no choice. I'm quite sure that when we bump this thread in a year or so, we'll be laughing. Let's just hope we're laughing because we're right.

[Jeritron]

HHH will be at WM27.

I predict a heavily promoted "Michaels final match" at Mania next year. Probably against HHH.

Taker, I dunno. I think his last Mania match will be his last match. At least full-time. They likely won't retire him on any less of a stage, and I don't think they'd do it the same year as Shawn.
So I say WM27 is Taker's last.

HHH and Jericho are going to be around for a long time. And that's fine. Especially in Jericho's case, because he's incredibly good lately and his character is flexible. He also doesn't hog up the spots. He can work anywhere on the card.
Having some vets on the card isn't a bad thing, but like LC has been saying eventually they need to hand over the torch.
HHH on the other hand, is obviously established and still can go. He seems younger than he is, and has way more left in the tank than HBM and Taker.
Still, he needs to take a reduced role. Don't count on that though.

[GD]

WWE needs to give some ppv space to the new lot. It is getting stagnant like the WCW.


Besides that I am depressed about the fact that new guys like Swagger, Colons and the In Crowd were not featured on the card. Not that they are great and all but hey even HHH had a match with Runnels at Wrestlemania and he finished him off with one of the worst pedigrees of all times IMO. You need to give them space.

[GD]

and let them develop.

[James Steele]

I think we need to realize how much of a hole Brock Lesnar left in WWE when he left. He was without a doubt the new face of the company.

I think it will be another year or two before MVP,Kofi, Punk, Morrison take the "main roles". Despite what people think Randy Orton is one of the biggest names in the company, and along with John Cena & Edge there is new blood but they are working with the old heads and polishing up so when this crop of attitude era guys leave...they will be "ready".

[Xero]

As far as Taker goes, I'd like to see him go to WM28, just to get the even 20-0 record and retire with it. If they're both around (which is doubtful) I'd love to see a Taker vs. Michaels rematch at 28.

[RGWhat316]

I definitely see what you mean. And really the WWE is the sole problem of this all. None of these newer guys are getting the chances they used to get. All the people from devlopmental get one shot, and thats it. And when they do decide to push some one new, like Vladimir Kozlov, they end of being horrible. It really is time for WWE to be more leniant on the newer guys to give them a chance.

[Ruien]

JBL/Rey Rey was right before Taker/HBK. The only thing I will argue, Edge/Jeff/Matt/JBL never carried the company during the Attitude era. The first two are in the best point of their career now.

On the new stars they are bringing up, no one is being rushed to the top (CM Punk is sort of being rushed I guess). By this, I do not mean Cena or Randy Orton who has already been rushed. Guys like, Cody Rhodes, Morrison, DiBiase, Primo Colon, Bourne, ect ect. They are starting small, all being put into storylines. The next generation is here, they are just not being rushed to the top like the others.

[The Fonz]

JBL/Rey Rey was right before Taker/HBK. The only thing I will argue, Edge/Jeff/Matt/JBL never carried the company during the Attitude era. The first two are in the best point of their career now.

On the new stars they are bringing up, no one is being rushed to the top (CM Punk is sort of being rushed I guess). By this, I do not mean Cena or Randy Orton who has already been rushed. Guys like, Cody Rhodes, Morrison, DiBiase, Primo Colon, Bourne, ect ect. They are starting small, all being put into storylines. The next generation is here, they are just not being rushed to the top like the others.

But how much longer can you hold these guys back for? How long does until they can finally stop spinning their wheels and go somewhere? How many times can guys like MVP, Kennedy, Morrison, Cody, Ted, Colons, and others win the US/IC/Tag Titles before they become meaningless like Shelton?

The talent is there, some of its not ready, but some are ready to take that next step. I just want WWE to give them that push.

[Loose Cannon]

The only thing I will argue, Edge/Jeff/Matt/JBL never carried the company during the Attitude era. .

I respectfully disagree on that. Yes, Austin, Rock, Taker, HHH, Foley and Vince were the main draws, but Edge/Christian/the Hardy's and the Dudley's were huge draws and merchandise movers around that time. Those three teams really ignited a giant spark in the tag division. they were very over with the fans complimented the main event guys nicely.

[Loose Cannon]

Oh and I very much think HBK, Taker, HHH will all be wrestling at WM 28, unless they suffer an injury. I just don't see them giving it up by then.

[Jeritron]

I respectfully disagree on that. Yes, Austin, Rock, Taker, HHH, Foley and Vince were the main draws, but Edge/Christian/the Hardy's and the Dudley's were huge draws and merchandise movers around that time. Those three teams really ignited a giant spark in the tag division. they were very over with the fans complimented the main event guys nicely.

Yea, and the Hart Foundation and The Rockers were the top tag teams under Hogan, Savage and Warrior.

I don't think Edge and Jeff in the main event is any less fresh or "new stardom" than Bret and Shawn taking over in the 90s was.

[FourFifty]

They need to re-sign the Honky Tonk Man, and push him to the main event!!!



And I'm not just saying this because I had a beer with him (well, we were drinking beer in the same room)....... Okay, yes, I am. He's the nicest dude I've ever met.

[Ruien]

But how much longer can you hold these guys back for? How long does until they can finally stop spinning their wheels and go somewhere? How many times can guys like MVP, Kennedy, Morrison, Cody, Ted, Colons, and others win the US/IC/Tag Titles before they become meaningless like Shelton?

The talent is there, some of its not ready, but some are ready to take that next step. I just want WWE to give them that push.

Would you rather have them get the Cena push? Kennedy screwed himself over(Steroids and injury prone), MVP screwed himself over(Just take the damn piss test and get it over with), and the rest are still fresh faces.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

I think the key difference between the attitude guys and the new crop is that the attitude guys could all cut promos. Now I don't know if the new guys can't cut promos but they haven't been given many chances. Punk can obviously cut a promo, but when was the last time he was given the opportunity? These new guys are just bodies that wrestle. There's no chance for fans to develop an emotional attachment to any of them. The only new guys who really get any consistent mic time are Santino, Miz & Morrison, Kennedy, and MVP. Santino and the Miz are not the future of this company and Kennedy seems less likely each day.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think fear is a big reason the WWE grips to its older stars. When Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock left, the WWE clung to Triple H as World Heavyweight Champion for dear life -- to the point where it was nearly damaging to the company. I'm sure politics do come into it, but the WWE have always tried to stick to the safe bets, and not make too many gambles.

As such, the WWE have missed some pretty big opportunities. Since the brand split, the WWE has had the chance to really push Shelton Benjamin, Matt Hardy and Christian as main event stars. They had a chance to push CM Punk better than what they have. They favoured the older guys.

It's what the WWE does, and it's probably not something that is going to change. I just hope Shawn Michaels puts John Morrison over at some point before he faces Triple H at WrestleMania 26.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Also, you can't over emphasize how important the other promotions were to developing the attitude era stars and post invasion stars. You look at Austin, Jericho, Foley, Guerrero, Benoit, the Dudleyz, Big Show, Booker T, RVD, and even guys like Shamrock and Angle who were able to develop a reputation and a fan base outside of the WWF that fans legitimately bought into. This does not and cannot happen in today's world.

[NeanderCarl]

One point I'll make is that the main event crew in the Attitude era were on average a lot younger than those all over the cards during the Hogan era. Therefore, their usefulness was always bound to last a lot longer.

Hogan, Savage etc were all late 40s/50s by the time 2000 came around, whereas Taker, Michaels, HHH et al are still only early/mid 40s and Edge, the Hardys, Big Show etc are still in their 30s.

[NeanderCarl]

In 80s/90s WWF, you had a lot of older and middle-aged veterans scattered around the roster. Harley Race, Bad News Brown, Andre, Studd, DiBiase, Garvin, Bravo, Valentine, Piper, Duggan, Eadie, Backlund, Flair, Spivey, Lawler, Roberts, Vader...

even the emerging stars (Diesel, Ramon, Hart, Sid, Austin) were at a stage where they weren't exactly spring chickens... the Attitude era created a lot of stars (main event and mid card) with a much younger average age than the previous generation.

Therefore, these guys still being able to go 10 years later is less of a surprise... seeing the 20-something WWE stars from 1999 still playing a big role in 2009 is a lot easier to understand than if we had seen the 40-something WWF stars from 1989 still playing a role in 1999.

[Arashi Kage]

Wrestling is past its prime. Seriously, the golden era is long over, the art of "wrasslin", the promo and interview is long dead, and the fact of the matter is, the new guys are not in the same class as our beloved WWF superstars. Come on, guys like Orton and Cena don't have the magic of Undertaker, HBK, Flair, Piper, and Steamboat. Can you really blame WWE for depending on the veterans and legends.

Once the last of the WWF Superstars are gone (like HBK and Undertaker), I'll be done with wrestling for good (except for watching old stuff on youtube once in a while). I haven't followed it closely since Hogan's last run ended. I hate to say that being a fan isn't "4-life". WWE can see this, they are retooling to be kid friendly so that they can grow a new audience for a new generation of wrestlers. Those of us in our late 20's who grew up with WWF after Saturday morning cartoons are moving on, but WWE can still get a few dollars outta us with awesome moments like Undertaker-HBK @ WM25 before we retire with them.

[Sting Fan]

Havent read the whole thread so sorry if im repeating but it just seems to me they have a nice talent pool sitting just below the top (CM Punk, Morrison, MVP to name a few) as well as a couple of guys who are forcing there way to the top and were midcarders 5 - 10 years ago like the Hardys, Cena and Orton who while main eventing for a while are relativly new.

I dont think its a bad mix really. You almost feel theres only so much room at the top and the likes of Punk, MVP and Morrison cant really go up much until some names fall away.

Once those names fall away (Taker, HHH, HBK and JBL, Flair to a lesser extent) they will get there shot. Personaly I agree it is a bit scary how long some of there runs at the top have been but I also feel these guys spending serious midcard time isnt a bad thing. So long as it ends soon, say the enxt two three years.

Its almost like midcard time is the new territorys. You do your time before being a big star, not overnight success as Cena and Lesnar and Orton had thrown on them, with varying degress of success.

[Fabien Barthez]

You can't just expect people like The Hardys, Edge and HHH to have had their time as the stars and be prepared to take a backseat already. The biggest drawback of less promotions is less mainstream work for wrestlers. Look at the group of wrestlers who come before these guys. Most of them worked until they died or had 20+ year careers. The torch is passed, not taken.

[Sting Fan]

I dont see how you lump HHH in with Edge and the Hardys. I would class HHH as an era behind the other three. I see Cena, Orton, Bats (old or not) the Hardys and Edge as new gen stars.

HHH scrapes into the last gen stars imo.

Otherwise I agree wholehartedly FB

[Krimzon7]

I just don't think that this will be an issue in a few years. I don't think Undertaker can sustain even his 'full time' schedule. When I watch HBK, I just get the feeling that his next match will be the one where he looses a step. Seriously He has cheated time so much, you figure it has to catch up with him. HHH will be around going strong by virtue of the fact that he's only 39. We have at LEAST 3 more years of HHH/Orton/Cena. I can be happy with this. I think that I've learned to find joy in watching the midcard. these guys are awesome. I watch the IC/US/Tag Team matches the way I used to watch Rock/Austin IC feuds. I know some of these guys have it, and i can't wait to see them with the big belts.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If each guy just took an individual guy and passed their own respective torch to them, things could be very different. That's all it will take. Shawn Michaels feuding with John Morrison would just be pure awesome, and elevate Morrison up to another level. He could then do the same thing with The Brian Kendrick.

Chris Jericho can work something with Joe Hennig when he comes up, because that would just be pure awesome. The Undertaker can lose his streak to Jack Swagger, etc.

The WWE should actually make sure that these guys pass the torch before they step out of the company.

[Kane Knight]

True.
I believe some of the people you mentioned are capable of carrying the company for a little longer. People like Taker, HBK and Jericho, to name a few.

Michaels and Taker just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt they can still go and be as good as ever.

That being said, look at how badly WWE scrambles when one or more of their top stars is shelved. And the older their stars get, the more likely. A few of the older stars work reduced schedules, but even then, that's not sustainable.

That's not just Attitude Era or earlier stars. Batista needs to fucking go away before he gets seriously crippled. There's a conservation issue here: These guys can sustain the company, but their run is finite and not guaranteed. If you push up and comers, you create a sustainable environment (Unless they're already getting up there, like Bats).

In short, I don't doubt that they can, but I question the wisdom that they should (and for that matter, that they are).

[Mr. Nerfect]

The Undertaker's streak is a sure-fire career-maker. If Taker were thinking about the company (and truthfully, I think he would be), then he would pick out a protoge, and turn them into an overnight star by lying down for them at WrestleMania.

[Loose Cannon]

it's got to be somebody they know they are going to make the face of the company or at least near that level. It cannot be some guy they are hot for a couple months on and then 3 months later, he's back to jobbing or wrestling in meaningless matches.

It's got to be a Cena or Batista of '03/'04, Austin or Rock in 97, HHH in 2000.


And honestly right now, I do not see that guy from just looking at how they are booking and pushing wrestlers. I don't see any young guy on the entire roster who will get a consistent push for a couple years straight. Meh, actually, Morrison I do see.



You have Punk, MVP, Colons, Dibiase, Kofi, Miz, Morrison Rhodes, Swagger, Borne and some others that are your new crop of stars.

Maybe we'll see one or two of these guys take the ball and become a superstar worthy enough to end the streak, but time will have to tell. Out of that list though, if you asked me to pick two guys who I thought would be the ones to rise above the rest, I'd go with Morrison and MVP

[Loose Cannon]

But I do want to see it end. I don't want him to retire with no losses at Wrestlemania, especially considering it's all fake anyway. Wrestling is about those great moments and every wrestling fan will never forget the moment when Taker got beat at Mania.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I completely agree with you, Loose Cannon. That being said, while I think MVP is eventually a good pick, I would like to see someone undefeated at WrestleMania take it.

Jack Swagger is one guy I could really see do it. Swagger has all the tools -- he's a good wrestler, and despite having the lisp, is more than capable of getting a promo across. Plus, the WWE loves him. He won a "World Title" faster than anyone else in WWE history, I believe. Jack Swagger beating The Undertaker at WrestleMania, and riding the confidence into an eventual face turn and run at the top is something completely forseeable.

Another guy I would have personally considered giving it to, despite getting a lot of criticism for it, I'm sure, is The Brian Kendrick. Back before he fucked up, that is. When the WWE decided to suddenly push him, it was not completely ridiculous to imagine him winning Money in the Bank at this year's WrestleMania. That means that by the next time WrestleMania rolled around, he would have had an official World Title to his name. If they capped that off with a match against Shawn Michaels at the following Mania, in which Kendrick's star could have really been born, then The Kendrick could have positioned himself as a man both talented and savvy enough to take Taker on at Mania. Yes, the size difference would be there, but it could essentially have been built as Kendrick's brains and x-factor versus The Undertaker's brawn and legacy.

The Kendrick has got all the tools he needs to make it in the business. He was trained by Shawn Michaels, can work, is a good talker, and can play a character. He can be both an annoying antagonist and a sympathetic protagonist. He just needs something to really push him over the edge. I can't imagine him leaving the business for acting or MMA, so he is someone the WWE could turn into a "lifer" if they built him up correctly.

Your suggestion of MVP is one that I could actually see -- just because the WWE has tested him with that losing streak angle (apparently). They're afraid to really try him as a big star in case he leaves, but that fear of trying him shows they have intent to do it. The only problem I might remotely have with it, is that I would personally prefer the guy to end Taker's streak being someone that hasn't lost at WrestleMania themselves -- to sort of keep the streak going in spirit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But right now, I would personally go with Jack Swagger (as the more likely of the two) or The Brian Kendrick (as my personal preference), and using it to turn them into instant stars.

Looking at things logically, John Cena ending the streak is something that you can't ignore. Cena is someone the WWE really loves, and he has a good Mania record. But he hasn't done something really unique to set him up as that obvious Hall of Famer. I wouldn't say that he's ever going to be forgotten, but despite being pushed as such, he doesn't seem to be on the same plataeu as people like Hulk Hogan or Stone Cold Steve Austin. Ending Taker's streak could help him arrive. Especially as a monster heel.