Pro-Wrestling Engine: How Should It Work?

[Kalyx triaD]

From the Street Fighter 4 Thread:

Ya know, the Revenge Meter is something wrestling games should look into.

Sound idea. Make it so certain moves are only executable or enhanced when the meter is filled up. Like you can only set a table on fire in Revenge mode or a Pedigree gets a more forceful animation than the regular one, etc.

Good stuff for a future thread on the matter...

Okay, we're pretty much in a agreement that SvR has indeed ran it's course with no evidence of THQ's team reworking the engine. The near ten year old series has seen two overhauls max (one largely aesthetic) and we've put up with it best we can. We all have strong ideas for what a wrestling game should play like, and I think it would be cool to pool our ideas and have a chat about it around the (supposed) time of the new SvR being announced.

Mind you this isn't an SvR thread, more about what we'd want in a pro-wrestling game. But if your ideas are WWE-centric that's all well and good. I'm also gonna refrain from posting my own lengthy post as of now. This is about the actual gameplay engine, not feature set. We ALL want a create-a-titantron but I'm more concerned with what goes on between the bells.

And yeah, feel free to shit on what's wrong with past wrestling games anyway. Good to vent.

[G]

I :heart: you.

[Xero]

I'd love to see the Ultimate Control engine taken to a new level. I'd like to see EVERY move in the game modifiable. This would be a whole new grapple engine, I suppose.

There are two possible front tie-ups and within them four possible setups, for a total of 8 setups. Let's say, within the "strong" grapple is a Powerbomb/Piledriver setup, Tombstone setup, DDT setup and Chop setup. Within each of those setups is a maximum of four possible moves.

The moves themselves can be modifiable. For example, you put someone in a powerbomb. If you do nothing, it's your variation of the powerbomb. If you hold the Left Trigger you hold onto them longer and can walk around/position them. You hold the Right trigger you can either taunt or do part of a multiple Powerbomb. You release it and you do your powerbomb. Of course, while all this is going on there are multiple instances where it can be reversed.

Basically, this would expand the absolute basic movesets to about 16 front and 16 back moves and expand the possibilities of the moves themselves.

Too complicated? I don't know, I'm writing this without much thought.

One thing that NEEDS to get put into a wrestling game is ragdoll physics. Seriously, no bump would be exactly the same. No sell would be exactly the same. This would be the ultimate feature for any wrestling game, really, in terms of presentation.

[Kalyx triaD]

I think the Ultimate Grapple was the coolest addition Yukes half-assed for whatever reason. I was expecting killer shit after it debuted in 07(?), but it didn't really move forward after that. LoW (Acclaim) had the right idea, but it was executed pretty rigid.

What Xero is proposing is really not a complicated set up, and what it do is allow people to do what they want really. My thoughts on a grapple system is very similar.

But what I really wanted to be addressed is the 'momentum' of pro-wrestling. I feel like the current system is archaic and largely unchanged from two generations ago. Charging up a meter to do a finisher just doesn't make sense for a pro-wrestling game. It's a fighting game kind of thing, but it's not how I'd do a wrestling game. Oddly enough, I believe the next step in momentum control can be found in THQ's own crowd tracks.

When the crowd cheers mixed chants for two wrestlers, that shit is nice. I started to wonder what triggers the sound bite. I found that it's largely time-triggered with no real relation to the match (like the insulting "ECW" chants at the start of an ER match but never when something hardcore happens). I think the crowd should be tied to the actual game and dictate the momentum, making audible cues important.

And BTW, get rid of Superstar ratings. I seen it mentioned in another thread and I agree that it doesn't work. I mean, it's basically a fucking tier list made clear. And the crowd cheers louder for the high numbers blah blah... It's gay. If Superstar ratings never appear again they won't be missed.

[Kalyx triaD]

And yay to ragdoll physics. It would be essential to table mechanics.

[Kane Knight]

I more or less liked the way Momentum worked in the No Mercy engine. The way it led to finishers was hardly perfect, for such a system, but as far as momentum works, it was decent. Tie it to the fans a little more, and it's a pretty sweet deal.

Any good wrestling game should have a fatigue system. I wasn't very impressed by DoR or the Smackdown fatigue systems, though. Fire Pro on the GBA was better, and I'm assuming the console games were, too.

I think one of the basics we need is more control in the way moves are executed. Like say, you can turn your character mid move to direct the impact. It never made sense to me in so many of the wrestling games why (for example) Jericho would turn someone into the ropes for a Liontamer/WoJ, or Undertaker would twist towards the ropes to do a Tombstone/RIP deal.

Perhaps it could be a feature of an "ultimate control" style system. I'd like to be able to slam someone into the turnbuckle, a table, or the ropes with the same move to different results. I'd rather do it without hot spot prompting, too. I dislike QTE/Minigames in the Smackdown series. We give up control for some sweet moves. Or not so sweet with shit like chop battles, which could easily be done without minigames.

[Xero]

I think the minigames (using the loosest sense of the word here) are required for some gimmick matches and definitely the submission system (though the SvR minigame isn't the way to go). But otherwise they can go.

[Kalyx triaD]

I think finishers should be available whenever. The power of it should be dependent on the crowd backing, unless it's some out of the blue counter - which should rightfully bypass that.

[Xero]

I agree, but there has to be a system that makes it progressively less likely to hit that finisher, or really any move, to prevent spamming.

If someone's going around giving you 50 Powerbombs, you'd think the opponent would wise up to the move. In fact, they could implement a feature where every time a move is executed, the player "learns" a bit more about it and the time frame for countering it expands, at least for a short time, or maybe more opportunities for a different type of counter opens.

This would also work well for a career mode, going from basic counters up to more options over the span of the mode, essentially adding a "leveling" system without the "Superstar rating".

[NoJabbaNoBogRoll]

No Mercy was as close to perfection as it's ever likely to get.

We always used to play it with the attitude bars turned off, so you had a chance to surprise your opponent with the finisher if you were clever.

[.44 Magdalene]

I think wrestling games could slightly benefit from something along the lines of an EX bar. Like, rolling with the idea that a finisher can be performed at any time--but what's the difference between "Bah gawd, he hit that Pedigree out of nowhere" and "BAHGAWDHE'SFOLDEDUPLIKEANACCORDIAN"? I like Xero's idea that spamming a particular move should increase the counterable frames--and probably reduce the damage of that particular move for a while as well, sort of like the way Smash Brothers does it.

Meanwhile, doing the "EX" version of a move might buffer it--making you do a different version of the move that's maybe harder to counter and more powerful. Different levels of "EX Momentum" might result in different variations--you might be able to tune up the band and Sweet Chin Music on the fly, but hitting that shit out of nowhere when your opponent's in the middle of a totally different attack might eat up a little of your bar.

[Kalyx triaD]

EX Sweet Chin Music should have HBK collapse dramatically.

OR

Keep EX moves and add Desperation Finishers. The desperate Sweet Chin Music would have HBK fall down.

A lot of this stuff is coming from fighting games, ironically.

[Kalyx triaD]

Mashing buttons to lift a somebody much larger than you needs to return.

[The Mask]

i like the idea of desperation finishers. honestly i think if you took the no mercy engine and added a huge whole bunch of shit to it and wrapped it up in a nice graphics package you'd be almost set. its the most fun wrestling game i've played by far, and the slower pace suits the genre.

to be honest though this is something i've considered a lot seeing as i've been playing the same game with my brother for something like 9 years now, so i could talk the arse off you all about the things i'd want adding to the no mercy engine. i don't know why no other game (or at least no other game i know of) doesn't have the no mercy direction and button grappling system rather than pulling off street fight like combinations. i know def jam had it but there was no way to customize that really and it was lacking a lot of variety.

[Xero]

Current gen wrestling games (SvR) use a similar No Mercy grappling system, just with the analog stick.

I haven't seen "Street Fighter-like combinations" since the Warzone engine.

[NoJabbaNoBogRoll]

In the new games, can you still nail a woman with five finishers, then suplex her through the roof of a HIAC, only to have her roll you up with her first move for the win?

I recall that happened to me on one of the old Smackdown games.

[Kalyx triaD]

Current gen wrestling games (SvR) use a similar No Mercy grappling system, just with the analog stick.

I haven't seen "Street Fighter-like combinations" since the Warzone engine.

We should never see them again. They were still better than WCW Nitro's joke of a system.

[Kalyx triaD]

In the new games, can you still give a woman five finishers, then suplex her through the roof of a HIAC, only to have her roll you up with her first move for the win?

I recall that happened to me on one of the old Smackdown games.

Don't think so.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

DoR2 had the deperation move and EX finishers.

Plus it had the best thing of all, the fact that I could punch anyone at any time, not just while they were not doing something else. That has to be any wrestling game engine.

[Kane Knight]

I agree, but there has to be a system that makes it progressively less likely to hit that finisher, or really any move, to prevent spamming.

If someone's going around giving you 50 Powerbombs, you'd think the opponent would wise up to the move. In fact, they could implement a feature where every time a move is executed, the player "learns" a bit more about it and the time frame for countering it expands, at least for a short time, or maybe more opportunities for a different type of counter opens.

This would also work well for a career mode, going from basic counters up to more options over the span of the mode, essentially adding a "leveling" system without the "Superstar rating".

Most wrestling games in the last few years have had strong and weak grapples, and strong grapples are harder than weak grapples, so by default, it's going to be harder to spam them.

[Fignuts]

King of Colosseum is damn near perfect imo.

Even the finisher system adds more strategy and depth than any other wretling game.

[Xero]

Most wrestling games in the last few years have had strong and weak grapples, and strong grapples are harder than weak grapples, so by default, it's going to be harder to spam them.

As far as I know, there's no automatic reversal system. So yes, it's easy to spam any move, aside from finishers in the current SvR engine.

[Kalyx triaD]

Do you want an automatic reversal system? I think SvR's reversal system works in the standing game, broken in the high flying game.

[Xero]

No, just saying you can spam any move in SvR (with stamina turned off, anyway).

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Do you want an automatic reversal system? I think SvR's reversal system works in the standing game, broken in the high flying game.

It doesn't work. The buttons may do, but:

1) The timings horrible

2) Generic reversals should be shot. Each move should have a reversal animation/move that then can also be reversed. I would take less moves for this.

[Xero]

I find SvR's reversal timing fine, except online. Online forget it.

But that's a lag issue, which for whatever reason has not been fixed from the first SvR.

[Kalyx triaD]

You can adjust the window of countering in the options. I tend to close it. The options governing the in-game mechanics is actually pretty deep over all, giving you the option of weakening finishers or making them more deadly.

But anyway, the reversal system is just find, IMO.

[Xero]

Submission systems need a major overhaul. I have not found one, in any game, that I was 100% happy with. I suppose the button mashing tug of war is okay, but it seems there should be some way to make it better.

I hate SVR's "unlock" mechanic, and I despised the timing mechanic that was in before. Maybe do the button mashing with a combination of analog control where you can use your hands to try and break out of the hold or kick someone in the face.

[.44 Magdalene]

You should have to spin the stick rapidly, like in Mario Party













lololololol

[Xero]

There should be a jumping mechanic.

It's like we're playing fucking Zelda, all we get is automatic jumps and rolls.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

You can adjust the window of countering in the options. I tend to close it. The options governing the in-game mechanics is actually pretty deep over all, giving you the option of weakening finishers or making them more deadly.

But anyway, the reversal system is just find, IMO.

It's not as good as No Mercy's

[Kalyx triaD]

One button to counter everything was pretty simplistic. R buttons broke because of that shit.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

What? L reversed grapple attempts and R reversed strike attempts. Hell, you could even do a better grapple reverse and slip in behind by pressing A at the right time and slip behind for a reverse grapple.

[Kalyx triaD]

What? L reversed grapple attempts and R reversed strike attempts. Hell, you could even do a better grapple reverse and slip in behind by pressing A at the right time and slip behind for a reverse grapple.

Whoops! You're right, had a brain malfunction there. Don't know where that came from. :|

But my stance remains on SvR's reversal system being straight forward.

[Kane Knight]

LOL auto reversal.

[Kalyx triaD]

Doesn't Cena do that IRL?

[Kane Knight]

I appreciate your attempts to be ridiculous and over the top, but sometimes it gets to be too much. Like adding sugar to your Hawaiian Punch--the shit was already too sweet...Now you're just making yourself sick.

[Kalyx triaD]

I'm self destructive.

[Kane Knight]

Well, I'd be too, if I was a black guy who fapped to Jap music. :p

[Kalyx triaD]

Don't judge me. :(

[Kane Knight]

I'm not really judging you as much as I'm walking a mile in your shoes. Well, half a mile. After the Yaoi and the Pikachu/Red Ranger slash, I had no choice but to kill myself.

[DaveBrawl]

Personally I think the stamina system needs a slight overhaul. They are sort of going in the right direction with it. As the damage goes higher your guy holds his ribs or neck or whatever and is slowed, but he still does as much damage and is not really any easier to reverse. If you are that tired and hurt, your ability should be slipping as well and you should be easier to counter and slower in execution.

Like one of you said earlier reversals should have unique reactions to each move. I'll give you an example I was using my created guy and tried to moonsault on a standing Tazz. He caught me from mid air into the ultimate grapple powerslam. That was one of the coolest things I have seen in any Smackdown game. Unfortunately I have seen it all of once in all of the games I have played since the first Smackdown. I know they say any move is reversable, but they should make it so that the more damaging a move is the easier it is to reverse. Maybe a punch is hard to reverse, but that ultimate powerslam is a little easier to wiggle out of until you have sustained some damage. I know they sort of do this now, but now every match is just a battle of reversals no matter who you control or what you do and it kills match flow and fun factor. Big Show, HHH and Jericho should not be able to reverse a move equally as easy, this may be my biggest gripe with these games.

Also the idea that only certain submission moves make you tap out is rediculous. Having moves that do it easier is fine, but having the tazzmission not put you out is beyond foolish in a game like this.

[Kane Knight]

The stamina system in SVR is the means by which you get tired, not injured.

The whole "Only X can make you submit" thing is just another way to artificially distinguish things. The ability system took things everyone could do and then limited them and was called a feature. Since you need a Sub ability just to make people tap outside of a finisher, it's worse.

I like the idea of multiple submission types, to be honest, but they should all work towards the same goal. And no, whoever said it, you don't need a minigame to make submissions work anymore than you need one for pinfalls. But anyway, if you can't make them tap, they're rather pointless most of the time. The best I can say is that they sometimes cause disparate body parts to be damaged at the same time.

Part of the problem with SVR is that the system is built around the idea of a fighter's engine, so you're supposed to avoid getting hit, rather than simply soaking up damage. Guys like the Big show should have a harder time reversing, but they shouldn't really be taking damage in the same way. It'd make the game flow easier if different people handled matches differently, but that requires altering the basic premise.

Another thing I'd like to see happen is a flow between strikes and holds. Hell, I'd like to see more fluid interaction, period.

[DaveBrawl]

Fluid matches would be an amazing thing. It seems that everytime someone complains to thq about the reversals they just increase the frequency of reversals, which seems counterproductive.

[Funky Fly]

There should be a jumping mechanic.

It's like we're playing fucking Zelda, all we get is automatic jumps and rolls.

They've already made your game. It's called Saturday Night Slam Masters and it's for the SNES.

[DaveBrawl]

That was an amazing game for a couple hours of fun.

[Funky Fly]

What's fucked up is that they made a Jap only sequel which was more like a mix between the first game and Street Fighter 2. Plus the guy from the game intro was actually playable in that one.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Oh yeah, jesus, that was terrible.

[DaveBrawl]

That sadly sounds like something I would play.

[Kalyx triaD]

In past Smackdown games you could set up a steel chair and sit on it. Why? Who knows. But it was hilarious.

[Xero]

That made absolutely no sense, lol. I think they were referring to a ring sit-in Austin did around that time.

[Volchok]

What game could you do that in?

[Kalyx triaD]

Sometime between Smackdown 3 and 6.

[DrA]

Press A to grapple
Hold A to grapple harder
Press C up next to the crowd to get a weapon

[Fignuts]

BCWWF

[Xero]

What game could you do that in?

Just Bring It, AKA SD!3.