The greatest of all time.

[The One]

Well, it’s Easter Sunday. Those who believe, I hope you have reflected on the miracle of the lord and savior rising so that he may join our father in heaven. For those of you who don’t believe...FIND THE EGGS! Always try wedged between the couch cushions first. Everyone hides an egg in the couch. Anyway, just as Jesus rose from the dead, so will I emerge from the depth of inactive poster. I thought I would start out with something very simple.

The 5 greatest Icons of Professional Wrestling.

”The Nature Boy” Ric Flair
http://www.oklafan.com/image/bank/ric_flair.jpg
He is the man. And that’s not a catchphrase, it’s the god’s honest truth. When you talk about the NWA in it’s peak, you’re talking about Ric Flair. The guy lived, ate, slept and breathed professional wrestling for 37 years. Most of us here haven’t been alive that long. Never the less, he walked the isle with a presence and grace that others only dream of. He could bring a big match atmosphere, and could go on the mat as well as anyone. When you talk about the measuring stick of all time greatest, it’s Ric Flair, and everyone else falls short. And you know what needs to happen to be the man…


“Hollywood” Hulk Hogan
http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Hulk_Hogan/hulk_hogan.jpg
Love him or hate him, he’s one of the greatest draws in wrestling history. I hate admitting this, but more people put their asses in the seats to see Hogan than possibly any other man. Plus, the Hogan poses and the handlebar mustache has become the reference to professional wrestling for all non-fans. He is the Babe Ruth of his sport, his records will be broken but he will always have his place as one of the all time greats, BROTHER!

”Stone Cold” Steve Austin
http://www.wwr.ie/Images2/austin.jpg
Oh Hell Yeah! It’s hard to think of anyone else who more dramatically changed the tone and feel of an entire industry. Steve Austin is that one in a million story of the right guy, at the right place and the right time just being himself. I heard a statistic that in 1999 someone bought a Steve Austin shirt once every 7 seconds. That right there says something. Charismatic, talented, good on the mic or in the ring. Steve brought with him something I still can’t put my finger on. I just know that personally, I have never, ever, been the least bit disappointed with the performance of Steve Austin (his booking, another story), and that’s the bottom line...

Andre The Giant
http://wrestlingdvds.org/andre1.jpg
When Vince McMahon first changed his format from a regional show to a national tour attraction he brought with him ONE man to draw the people in, Andre The Giant. At the time no one on the West Coast would have cared or even knew who WWF’s (then the New York territory) Champ once. But McMahon had signed Andre to wrestle exclusively for him. And the people came. Andre was, truly, not only the first nationally known and loved wrestler, but the first internationally know performer. Kind of fitting that when he died both WWF and WCW created the Hall of Fame simply to honor him. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Andre was also, perhaps, the most charismatic wrestler of all time. We miss you Boss.

“The Heartbreak Kid” Shawn Michaels
http://www.nndb.com/people/808/000108484/shawn-michaels-2-sized.jpg
We all know I could spend the next three days talking about him, so instead I’ll let some other people say a few words;
“Shawn Michaels, who, from a performing standpoint, I don’t know, I don’t know that he has a peer yet. I don’t know that he ever will.”
-Vince McMahon
“When you look at all the variables and look at it objectively, how do you not say that Michaels is the greatest who ever lived.”
-Jim Ross
“Only a few people in the history of the world, as an artist, have been up to the level of Shawn Michaels when he’s in a wrestling ring. That’s his form of artistry, and he’s the best at it.”
-Chris Jericho

Feel free to agree, object, make your own list of the greatest icons of the industry.

[D Mac]

Welcome back! :love:

[The One]

Thanks DM.

TOVO Fact: Tovo thinks it feels pretty good to be back.

[Juan]

Pretty hard to argue with any of that :y:

[#1-norm-fan]

“Only a few people in the history of the world, as an artist, have been up to the level of Shawn Michaels when he’s in a wrestling ring. That’s his form of artistry, and he’s the best at it.”
-Chris Jericho

That was fucking beautiful. :'(

Welcome back.

[D Mac]

Yeah the one is spot on as always.

[James Steele]

:love:

[thedamndest]

I'm sure the guy with that list that said Bastion Booger was better than Shawn Michaels would argue it.

[GD]

Stone Cold is the safest bet.

[owenbrown]

Tovo :D

[Jeritron]

It's impossible to make these lists without most people disagreeing, give or take a few spots.
I like it though.

[Tazz Dan]

:love: tovo. I seriously had to look twice. Welcome back :D

[Triple Naitch]

I thought this was a bumped thread from 2003 at first.

[The Gold Standard]

I am sure there are others you could put on the list, but it is very hard to disagree with anything said here

[The Optimist]

Flair
Shawn
I don't care what the order is beyond this point.

[Xero]

Tovo's insights out balance retarded socks 200-1.

Great post as always, Tovo. And I must agree. :y:

[Blue Demon]

:wave:

[KYR]

I now believe in miracles.

Welcome back ToVo :love:

[Triple Naitch]

For some reason, "The greatest of all time" and tovo are synonymous with each other.

[IC Champion]

The lack of Hart's and Canadians say allot about your sham list.

[James Steele]

Quit whining you cunt.

[IC Champion]

Suck my dick you texas trash.

[The One]

The lack of Hart's and Canadians say allot about your sham list.

I have a fucking FRENCH guy up there. Don't give me any bullshit about American bias IC. I miss the good old days when you would kiss my ass.

TOVO Fact: Tovo hates tomatoes on his sandwiches.

[IC Champion]

No one cares what Tovo likes, or hates.

And fuck that giant french trash, he was barely mobile.

[The One]

The fact that you only know him from after his back surgery when he had limited mobility shows you have a deep lack of understand for wrestling on a larger scale. Your new found love of the Harts is based 10% in you liking them and 90% in trying to "get back" at us for kicking you out of the Kliq...which you BEGGED to stay in. So your the one showing a very clear bias in this thread. I put Hogan on the list despite hating him, because he was one of the best icons his industry has seen. You can disagree with my list all you like, but I wish your disagreement was founded by facts and not by some weak ass attempt at a vendetta against me. Kind of makes you seem like an ignorant ass.

TOVO Fact: Tovo is burning a soy based candle scented "White Cotton" and it smells wonderful and is relaxing.

[James Steele]

IC, I think you should pull your head out of your ass so you can understand why you sound like such a jackass.

[IC Champion]

I didn't beg to stay, BDC wanted me in.

I do miss voting of policy though.

[IC Champion]

LOL, JS telling someone they sound like a jack ass. Seriously kid, you are the most annoying person on the forums. You think you're cool or something, than beat of in C-fed. Please go away.

[McLegend]

He is alive.

[James Steele]

Oh my, look at Instant Classic tell me what is what. Wow, I guess being an overbearing prick is better eh IC?

[IC Champion]

I speaks the truth.

[James Steele]

I speaks the truth.

No, you speak opinion. You are also the one who claims that Shawn Michaels is horrible because he is a "Jesus Freak"...yes HBK being a Christian is the reason you hate him.

[IC Champion]

I don't even hate HBK, he is a Jesus Freak, that's just fact. I just get tired of how much he is blown around here, and bash him to piss off the likes of you.

[Xero]

No, he claims he hates him because Michaels currently constantly puts on terrible matches.

You know, except the ones where he's easily in the match of the night.

But he's a terrible wrestler.

[The One]

Don't worry about what IC says JS. He's trying to grab some attention by coaxing us into getting in a "feud" with him on the interwebz so that maybe someone will pay attention to him. His statements are based off of nothing but odd grudges and have little if anything to do with actual assessments. At this point talking with him is pouring more fuel to the fire. He's craving attention, good or bad, he just wants to be regarded. It's classic trool mentality.

TOVO Fact: Tovo hasn't seen any of the new South Park this season and is sad about that.

[James Steele]

I don't even hate HBK, he is a Jesus Freak, that's just fact. I just get tired of how much he is blown around here, and bash him to piss off the likes of you.

Do not bullshit IC, you are clearly using the term "Jesus Freak" to be insulting and now you are admitting to being a troll.

[Xero]

"Witty" IC rebuttal imminent.

[Xero]

SOUTH PARK Fact: You may watch any episode ever at this link: http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/

[IC Champion]

Your mother.

[IC Champion]

Don't worry about what IC says JS. He's trying to grab some attention by coaxing us into getting in a "feud" with him on the interwebz so that maybe someone will pay attention to him. His statements are based off of nothing but odd grudges and have little if anything to do with actual assessments. At this point talking with him is pouring more fuel to the fire. He's craving attention, good or bad, he just wants to be regarded. It's classic trool mentality.

TOVO Fact: Tovo hasn't seen any of the new South Park this season and is sad about that.

How is that any different then what most you guys do?

[James Steele]

How is that any different then what most you guys do?

We have proven that Bret Hart is not the perfect human being you dipshits believe him to be, and we all have given strong arguments that Shawn Michaels is a better professional wrestler than Bret Hart. While the best we get from you and others are: Shawn is gay, he wears chaps, he sucks, and my personal favorite - "Bret Hart was a draw!" despite being the head figures of the company the same time Shawn was, only Shawn had to go against the nWo angle once Bret decided to be a bad guy and actually add some depth to his character.

[Theo Dious]

SOUTH PARK Fact: You may watch any episode ever at this link: http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/

I really wonder what that does to their DVD sales. But it is pretty awesome.

[Xero]

We have proven that Bret Hart is not the perfect human being you dipshits believe him to be, and we all have given strong arguments that Shawn Michaels is a better professional wrestler than Bret Hart.

In other words, we have facts on our side.

[IC Champion]

JS everybody, a bigger moron than I thought he was.

[Xero]

I really wonder what that does to their DVD sales. But it is pretty awesome.

People are going to pirate anyway, as every show is available within 24 hours of airing. They're ahead of the curve by offering them up with ads.

[James Steele]

JS everybody, a bigger moron than I thought he was.

No other lame insult like "You are from Texas." or "You are involved in the c-feds." or "You suck."

[IC Champion]

Ok, you win, you have facts of your side. HBK is responsible for the sun rising and setting.

[IC Champion]

No other lame insult like "You are from Texas." or "You are involved in the c-feds." or "You suck."

I try to be factual, and yes, "You are involved in c-feds" would be insulting to anyone with self respect or a life.

[Xero]

I try to be factual, and yes, "You are involved in c-feds" would be insulting to anyone with self respect or a life.

Says the man trolling on an internet message forum.

A troll bringing "life" into any argument is pretty fucking ironic.

[Theo Dious]

This argument bears an odd resemblance to a child beating on the Statue of Liberty with stick.

[Xero]

This argument bears an odd resemblance to a child beating on the Statue of Liberty with stick.

Controlled by an NES Advantage, no less.

[IC Champion]

Oh yes, I troll.

[Theo Dious]

People are going to pirate anyway, as every show is available within 24 hours of airing. They're ahead of the curve by offering them up with ads.

Yeah and the website doesn't provide any special features, so I guess it doesn't do much damage.

*runs off to watch the episode where Cartman gets his own theme park*

[Theo Dious]

Controlled by an NES Advantage, no less.

I had me one of those... best NES controller EVARZ.

[IC Champion]

Maybe one day, I can be as cool as you guys. And make witty jokes about NES and such.

[Kane Knight]

In other words, we have strawmen on our side.

The Kliq is so cuuuute.

[James Steele]

Oh look, IC has SuperDouche coming to the rescue.

[Xero]

Maybe one day, I can be as cool as you guys. And make witty jokes about NES and such.

Actually it was a Ghostbusters 2 reference, but thanks for playing.

[James Steele]

Kane Knight, please add to this thread with your charming wit and knowledge of everything! Then, we can get in a heated debate in which you will win because you are KANE KNIGHT and you are a great musician, a great writer, a great debater, a great gamer, a great policy maker, a great mind, and of course, a great man!

[Theo Dious]

Oh look, IC has SuperDouche coming to the rescue.

John Edward?

[IC Champion]

LOL.

KK came on his own, and yeah, I dont knwo if you noticed, but there are some of your boyfriends in here.

[Xero]

I AM NOT A DOUCHE! NOW GET OUT OF MY HOUSE OR I'M GONNA CALL THE COPS!

*Runs up the stairs*

I AM NOT A DOUCHE!

[IC Champion]

Kane Knight, please add to this thread with your charming wit and knowledge of everything! Then, we can get in a heated debate in which you will win because you are KANE KNIGHT and you are a great musician, a great writer, a great debater, a great gamer, a great policy maker, a great mind, and of course, a great man!

I believe he did.

[IC Champion]

Kane Knight, please add to this thread with your charming wit and knowledge of everything! Then, we can get in a heated debate in which you will win because you are KANE KNIGHT and you are a great musician, a great writer, a great debater, a great gamer, a great policy maker, a great mind, and of course, a great man!

Compared to you, a child with down syndrome could appear to be anyone of those things.

[James Steele]

Oh my, look at you with your cute example of wit and charm! I just want to pinch your cheeks and give you a Cadbury Egg.

[IC Champion]

Actually it was a Ghostbusters 2 reference, but thanks for playing.

Oh, Sorry. I've been meaning to watch the first one for a week now.

[James Steele]

Compared to you, a child with down syndrome could appear to be anyone of those things.

Really? I am glad that a guy on a wrestling forum, who knows everything about everything, can make such a sweeping comparison.

[IC Champion]

Oh my, look at you with your cute example of wit and charm! I just want to pinch your cheeks and give you a Cadbury Egg.

Now there is some wit, that's like the third time you used that one now?

[IC Champion]

Really? I am glad that a guy on a wrestling forum, who knows everything about everything, can make such a sweeping comparison.

Wasn't hard really.

[Theo Dious]

Since JS clearly needs no help with this altercation, I would like to take this time to advocate that I be allowed to masturbate in public buildings.

[Xero]

Motion passed.

Next issue.

[James Steele]

IC, all I am asking is to post why you feel Bret Hart or another Canadian are more deserving of being on Tovo's list than Andre the Giant and Shawn Michaels.

[IC Champion]

Oh, are you guys voting on Kliq policy? I thought that only happen behind the most closed doors.

[Kane Knight]

James commenting on wit and charm.

That would be like IC telling us what it was like to be straight.

[James Steele]

Here is the catch, you can't bitch about backstage politics or a man's religion. You can only use things related to the actual in-ring product, since that is what matters in wrestling.

[James Steele]

James commenting on wit and charm.

That would be like IC telling us what it was like to be straight.

:rofl:

KK, this is why you are truly among the elite of the world!

[IC Champion]

Here is the catch, you can't bitch about backstage politics or a man's religion. You can only use things related to the actual in-ring product, since that is what matters in wrestling.

I can do whatever the hell I want, when I want. And if I want to call someone a sanctimonious Jesus Freak, I will.

[Theo Dious]

Oh, are you guys voting on Kliq policy? I thought that only happen behind the most closed doors.

This is personal policy, Sir.

[IC Champion]

This is personal policy, Sir.

my bad.

[Theo Dious]

I can do whatever the hell I want, when I want.

http://www.entertainmentopia.com/screenshots/dvd/aquaTeen_vol1_masterShake.jpg

I knew Master Shake, I served with Master Shake... and YOU are no Master Shake.

[James Steele]

I can do whatever the hell I want, when I want. And if I want to call someone a sanctimonious Jesus Freak, I will.

Well, then do not complain when somebody calls you out on your ridiculous arguments and rather stupid opinion of a wrestler just based on his religion and the fact he was the guy who had to take the belt off of him when Bret wouldn't do business..

[IC Champion]

I'll Shake you.

[James Steele]

I'll Shake you.

So, now you will try to kill me like you would an infant. Real classy.

[IC Champion]

Well, then do not complain when somebody calls you out on your ridiculous arguments and rather stupid opinion of a wrestler just based on his religion.

I don't base my argument on religion, I bash him for the same reason the kliq bashes Bret.

[IC Champion]

So, now you will try to kill me like you would an infant. Real classy.

Alls I know is that if you shake em long enough, they will quiet down.

[Theo Dious]

I'll Shake you.

http://zedequalszee.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/acdc.jpg

You aren't these guys either.

[Xero]

I don't base my argument on religion, I bash him for the same reason the kliq bashes Bret.

Boring matches? Terrible mic skills?

[James Steele]

Boring matches? Terrible mic skills?

:rofl:

WHAT! BRET IS THE GREATEST IN-RING COMPETITOR OF ALL TIME!

Did you know that Canada would implode if Bret lost in Canada clean? Bret was not boring, he had great matches with Mr. Perfect and British Bulldog!

[Theo Dious]

Did you know that Canada would implode if Bret lost in Canada clean?

I now hate him even more for not doing it then.

[IC Champion]

JS, proving yet again that he is a moron.

[James Steele]

IC, proving yet again he has no argument.

[IC Champion]

You're just bashing Bret, thats no different, other than you believe to have "facts" on your side. Well guess what, so do the Mormons. Doesn't make you right.

[Theo Dious]

...you believe to have "facts" on your side. Well guess what, so do the Mormons.

...wait, so now it's a fact that God doesn't want us to drink caffiene? Well now I really AM going to hell.

[IC Champion]

God is fictitious, like Batman.

[James Steele]

You're just bashing Bret, thats no different, other than you believe to have "facts" on your side. Well guess what, so do the Mormons. Doesn't make you right.

At least I am giving reasons other than, "IC you are an idiot".

[James Steele]

God is fictitious, like Batman.

We'll find out soon enough won't we?

[Xero]

I'm Batman.

[Theo Dious]

I'm Batman.

...no, you are not. [/Will Farrell]

[IC Champion]

I'm Batman.

George Clooney is Batman.

[Theo Dious]

God is fictitious, like Batman.

What a surprise, a misrable athiest who has nothing better to do than try to anger people with base insults.

[Theo Dious]

George Clooney is Batman.

Sir, mock my God if you like, but if you start identifying ER-boy as Batman, there will be hell to pay.

[Triple Naitch]

I thought this thread was supposed to be dedicated to the triumphant return of The One?

[Xero]

Dick Face Classic up there ruined it for everyone.

[IC Champion]

What a surprise, a misrable athiest who has nothing better to do than try to anger people with base insults.

I am not miserable.

[James Steele]

In a way, this is a great way to celebrate the return of The One.

[James Steele]

I am not miserable.

I beg to differ, you are a watered down Kane Knight.

[IC Champion]

I beg to differ, you are a watered down Kane Knight.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

[Theo Dious]

How about a greased-up Kane Knight?

[James Steele]

Kane Knight with sunlight?

[James Steele]

I will agree that IC isn't completely bad, as he is pro-marijuana.

[Loose Cannon]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/TwistedSteeleEntertainment/n1544820023_30121533_1751.jpg

Hi, I'm James Steele and this is my favorite wrestler.




http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o4vjAPwU6E8/SZl4XIROeDI/AAAAAAAAAvk/c35wKKDfhhw/s400/ShawnMichaels051.jpg

Thank you James,

-Love HBK

[FourFifty]

I can do whatever the hell I want, when I want.
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[James Steele]

Actually. this is my favorite wrestler:

http://z.about.com/d/prowrestling/1/0/I/B/-/-/tripleh05.jpg
(the one on the right)

[IC Champion]

Even worse. At least HBK is actually good.

[James Steele]

Once again, please explain to me how Triple H is horrible.

[IC Champion]

He's not horrible, he's just not the god you make him out to be. He was good 10 years ago, even 7 years ago, but since then he's become a stale act.

[IC Champion]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/TwistedSteeleEntertainment/n1544820023_30121533_1751.jpg

Hi, I'm James Steele and this is my favorite wrestler.




http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o4vjAPwU6E8/SZl4XIROeDI/AAAAAAAAAvk/c35wKKDfhhw/s400/ShawnMichaels051.jpg

Thank you James,

-Love HBK

LOL

[Theo Dious]

Actually. this is my favorite wrestler:

You have to forgive him, what with your sig, and the thread you started the other day, nobody would ever guess that about you.

[IC Champion]

How did I even miss that.

[Krimzon7]

Tovo has arisen on this glorious day! It stirs my heart to see so much Kliq focused hate running rampant. IC who should our favorited wrestler be?

EH

[legendkillerRKO]

awesome list tho i wud have taker instead of andre...

[Theo Dious]

As much a Taker fan as I am, Andre did a lot more to make the business what it is. I'd definitely put him at number 6 though.

[Xero]

awesome list tho i wud have taker instead of andre...

Shut up taker707.

[James Steele]

Terry Funk > Bret Hart (x3949394939493949493)

[mike adamle]

wheres kane86 when you need him

[Loose Cannon]

The list is pretty much the same as mine, except I wouldn't have HBK on there. While he's definately a top five greatest wrestler of all-time, he's not in the same class as the other four guys you have up there. He hasn't really transcended the wrestling business like Hogan, Flair, Andre and Austin. Same with Taker.

I would put guys like Rogers, George, Piper and Rock in front of him.

[mike adamle]

oh, and as for the list, well, i'd switch either shawn or stone cold, probably shawn, and put bruno sammartino up there. i think you need one of them, in my opinion stone cold, but with that list, sammartino just fits, he was the man of the early days

[Mr. Nerfect]

The list is pretty much the same as mine, except I wouldn't have HBK on there. While he's definately a top five greatest wrestler of all-time, he's not in the same class as the other four guys you have up there. He hasn't really transcended the wrestling business like Hogan, Flair, Andre and Austin. Same with Taker.

I would put guys like Rogers, George, Piper and Rock in front of him.

I agree with you. I wasn't around during the day of most of those guys you mentioned, but I would definitely put The Rock ahead of Shawn Michaels, just because of his mere popularity. If you're talking pop-culture icons in professional wrestling, you've got to put quite a few guys before Shawn Michaels. Roddy Piper, The Undertaker and Bret Hart would all go ahead of HBK in those regards, I believe.

It's not a tragedy that HBK makes anyone's top five lists, though.

[The One]

The list is pretty much the same as mine, except I wouldn't have HBK on there. While he's definately a top five greatest wrestler of all-time, he's not in the same class as the other four guys you have up there. He hasn't really transcended the wrestling business like Hogan, Flair, Andre and Austin. Same with Taker.

I would put guys like Rogers, George, Piper and Rock in front of him.

That's a fair assessment, though out of the people you listed I really could only see George being a suitable replacement.

Rocky was fun, but his direct impact is a litle hard to gauge. It's like if Warrior has been talented, people liked him, but they were really mainly there to see Austin (or in the Warrior analogy, Hogan). He's served as a great ambassador of sorts to the rest of the entertainment industry, but his contributions to wrestling on a whole weren't exactly industry changing.

Piper, while great, truly never broke the mold. Again, he served as an incredible co-star...but never quite the main dish. Now I grant, WrestleMania couldn't have happened without Piper there to counter Hogan, but he served as the yang, and not the yin...I guess what I'm trying to say is, he came second in the equation.

Rogers...now that's a tricky one. If the question was who was the most influential to OTHER wrestlers, I would say Rogers is probably #2 or 3 on the list. But in terms of what he did for the business, I'm not really sure he would be someone to which the crowd owes their appreciation of their love for the sport.

Now George...he's someone who if there was anyone who might be able to knock Michaels out of the top 5 spot, it would be George. When you have guys like James Brown and Ali tributing their personality after a wrestler, you know you've struck gold. Really the first gimmick to get over. And while he was still somewhat of a regional performer, his influence kind of changed the way the sport was run from a straight up "tough man" approach of guys who could legit stretch you, to that of the gimmick style that more or less personified the business in thelast 20 years...only he was, you know, 50 years ahead of that. In the end, it's kind of a judgement call...and we all know how I went with it...but it's an interesting argument to be made for sure.

TOVO Fact: Tovo has DirectTV and he hates them.

[The One]

oh, and as for the list, well, i'd switch either shawn or stone cold, probably shawn, and put bruno sammartino up there. i think you need one of them, in my opinion stone cold, but with that list, sammartino just fits, he was the man of the early days

Switching out Steve Austin? Are you nuts? I could see the argument to switch out Michaels despite my personal feelings for him...but Austin? That's something I really can not wrap my brain around.

And on top of that, in my evaluation Bruno doesn't belong in the top ten guys, nevermind the top 5. Bruno wasn't really that strong of a draw outside of New York. He was a very basic guy who in many ways used a style of working that was out of date even at his peak. I promise you, if it wasn't for the length of his reigns with the WWE Belt (which again, at the time, was strictly a New York territory) you would probably have never heard of his name.

TOVO Fact: Tovo is getting sleepy.

[Destor]

This thread shouldn't have sucked. It did though. :(

[The One]

I tried Desty. I really tried. We can still turn it around...maybe...this last page hasn't been a complete disgace. :/

[thedamndest]

<img src="http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/trishjovi/ShawnMichaels.jpg">

[Xero]

*Tries to salvage thread.*

I'd like to hear mike adamle's reasoning on even considering taking Austin off this list.

[The One]

Hell, Noid, care to expand on the reasoning for any of your choices?

TOVO Fact: Tovo forgot to do a TOVO Fact for his last post...

[Destor]

Also, I really can't dispute your top 5 there. I might knock off HBM for *gulp* illy Graham based soley on his impact on workers that changed the industry. But that would require me to make a lot of thought because he was beyond terrible in the ring. Great charecter, great promos, really defined what wreslting would become in a thousand different ways. But just so bad in the ring...

[Juan]

Honorable Mention: Randy Savage

[The One]

Also, I really can't dispute your top 5 there. I might knock off HBM for *gulp* illy Graham based soley on his impact on workers that changed the industry. But that would require me to make a lot of thought because he was beyond terrible in the ring. Great charecter, great promos, really defined what wreslting would become in a thousand different ways. But just so bad in the ring...

Like I had said with LC, if this was a list of worker influence, he and Rogers would have obviously had a much better placement. But even there, Graham influenced the "cool heel" movement. Plus, like you said, his matches...oh god his matches...and really in the end he didn't bring that many fans to the table and certainly never made much of an impact. And shouldn't we be more upset that he paved the way for Steiner to get over post-talent?

TOVO Fact: Tovo hasn't had a beer all day.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Hell, Noid, care to expand on the reasoning for any of your choices?

TOVO Fact: Tovo forgot to do a TOVO Fact for his last post...

Well, I've always been of the belief that Shawn Michaels is probably the greatest "non-icon" in the history of the business. By that I mean of all the guys that have not really crossed over at all into the mainstream, HBK is probably the greatest and closest to being associated with the sport.

Shawn Michaels is a wrestling fan's wrestler, and out of everyone on the list, I think the spot he would contend the most with is that held by Ric Flair. If you watched professional wrestling, you'd have a lot of respect for Ric Flair. If you didn't watch professional wrestling, you probably wouldn't have a clue who he is.

Perhaps I put too much stock on how well a guy branches out, but I think it is an effective measuring stick. Shawn Michaels is just the greatest exception to prove the rule.

This might be a reason a lot of people to scoff at, but Bret Hart has been featured on The Simpsons. The show has lost its magic over the years, but when you've made it onto The Simpsons, you reach a state of immortality. Bret is also a symbol associated with technical wrestling. There are some answers to subjective questions that can just be considered the correct ones, even if you don't believe them. "Who is the best technical wrestler of all-time?" Bret Hart is an acceptable answer.

Roddy Piper has been on films, branched out, and as you said, was a major antagonist to Hulk Hogan. I agree with you, though, I wouldn't put Piper on the list. Maybe not even before Michaels.

The Undertaker is the gimmick wrestler. I don't care what anyone says. He's also the premier 300-pounder. You've got Andre as that giant-sized heavyweight, but when it comes to your classic big man, Taker is by far the most iconic. Coming from a younger wrestling fan, too, Taker is also a name you know, even if you don't know wrestling, and are just using it to make fun of the sport. You've got the ridiculous handle-bar mustache promos of a Hulk Hogan, and you've got the ridiculous names and assumed identities of an Undertaker or a Rock.

Plus, yes I know it is a fixed sport, but The Undertaker has just won more World Championships and just went over Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania this year. I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, but when it comes to the characters in sports entertainment, Taker deserves a place at the top of the list.

As for The Rock, I can understand why some might discount him because of who else was around him, and his relatively short time in the business, but when naming a trio of the biggest draws in professional wrestling, I just cannot list any other three than Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If I were allowed to do a top ten list:

1. Stone Cold Steve Austin
2. Hulk Hogan
3. The Rock
4. Ric Flair
5. Andre the Giant
6. The Undertaker
7. Sting
8. Bret Hart
9. Shawn Michaels
10. Goldberg

Honourable Mention: "Rowdy" Roddy Piper

I know Goldberg making the top ten will piss a lot of people off, but the way he drew, and even if he respresents a more shallow side of the business, there is just something synonymous about "Goldberg" and "professional wrestling." For right or wrong reasons. But I'm only really allowed to comment on what I've experienced from the Attitude era up. Guys like Billy Graham, Bruno Sammartino, Buddy Rogers and Gorgeous George and beyond my scope.

[Destor]

Like I had said with LC, if this was a list of worker influence, he and Rogers would have obviously had a much better placement. But even there, Graham influenced the "cool heel" movement. Plus, like you said, his matches...oh god his matches...and really in the end he didn't bring that many fans to the table and certainly never made much of an impact. And shouldn't we be more upset that he paved the way for Steiner to get over post-talent?

TOVO Fact: Tovo hasn't had a beer all day.Graham ifluenced a lot, maybe too much with his ring work.

[Destor]

If I were allowed to do a top ten list:

1. Stone Cold Steve Austin
2. Hulk Hogan
3. The Rock
4. Ric Flair
5. Andre the Giant
6. The Undertaker
7. Sting
8. Bret Hart
9. Shawn Michaels
10. Goldberg

Honourable Mention: "Rowdy" Roddy Piper

I know Goldberg making the top ten will piss a lot of people off, but the way he drew, and even if he respresents a more shallow side of the business, there is just something synonymous about "Goldberg" and "professional wrestling." For right or wrong reasons.I am REALLY sorry Noid, you know I love ya, but that list has no credibilty with Goldberg on there.

[Destor]

And Sting really hurts it too.

[Xero]

GOLDBERG!?

FUCKING GOLDBERG!?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I know they might not be the most popular choices, and I felt really dirty including Goldberg, but talking about a certain aspect of the business, I think he could be considered massively successful. Although, if we are taking all things into consideration, Goldberg would be at the tail end of the top hundred.

[Mr. Nerfect]

GOLDBERG!?

FUCKING GOLDBERG!?

Well, what are we measuring? Iconic association with the business? In that case, yet. Ask a casual fan to name some wrestlers, and they'll probably give you Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Stone Cold, The Undertaker and Goldberg.

Not one of the greatest of all-time from an in-ring standpoint. But the more you get into wrestling, the easier it is to dislike and dismiss the guy. Even if he's a negative icon, he's an icon.

[FourFifty]

<strike>I am REALLY sorry Noid, you know I love ya, but</strike> that list has no credibilty with Goldberg on there.

[The One]

Well, I've always been of the belief that Shawn Michaels is probably the greatest "non-icon" in the history of the business. By that I mean of all the guys that have not really crossed over at all into the mainstream, HBK is probably the greatest and closest to being associated with the sport.

Shawn Michaels is a wrestling fan's wrestler, and out of everyone on the list, I think the spot he would contend the most with is that held by Ric Flair. If you watched professional wrestling, you'd have a lot of respect for Ric Flair. If you didn't watch professional wrestling, you probably wouldn't have a clue who he is.

Perhaps I put too much stock on how well a guy branches out, but I think it is an effective measuring stick. Shawn Michaels is just the greatest exception to prove the rule.

This might be a reason a lot of people to scoff at, but Bret Hart has been featured on The Simpsons. The show has lost its magic over the years, but when you've made it onto The Simpsons, you reach a state of immortality. Bret is also a symbol associated with technical wrestling. There are some answers to subjective questions that can just be considered the correct ones, even if you don't believe them. "Who is the best technical wrestler of all-time?" Bret Hart is an acceptable answer.

Roddy Piper has been on films, branched out, and as you said, was a major antagonist to Hulk Hogan. I agree with you, though, I wouldn't put Piper on the list. Maybe not even before Michaels.

The Undertaker is the gimmick wrestler. I don't care what anyone says. He's also the premier 300-pounder. You've got Andre as that giant-sized heavyweight, but when it comes to your classic big man, Taker is by far the most iconic. Coming from a younger wrestling fan, too, Taker is also a name you know, even if you don't know wrestling, and are just using it to make fun of the sport. You've got the ridiculous handle-bar mustache promos of a Hulk Hogan, and you've got the ridiculous names and assumed identities of an Undertaker or a Rock.

Plus, yes I know it is a fixed sport, but The Undertaker has just won more World Championships and just went over Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania this year. I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, but when it comes to the characters in sports entertainment, Taker deserves a place at the top of the list.

As for The Rock, I can understand why some might discount him because of who else was around him, and his relatively short time in the business, but when naming a trio of the biggest draws in professional wrestling, I just cannot list any other three than Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock.

OK, and I see where you're coming from for a lot of this, but let me counter with a couple of points...

When Bret appeared on The Simpsons, it was when he was Champion. From the bottom of my heart, I truly believe someone called over to WWE, said they had an idea for a 10 second joke, and McMahon delivered his champ boy at the time. And on top of that, even with his Simpson cameo, I would wager dollar to penny that if you poled 100 random people who didn't watch wrestling, more would know Michaels than Hart. Honestly, I just think they would. It's kind of impossible to know for sure, but for idle speculation, I'm going with Michaels. It's not a hard leap of faith either since Michaels' career on top has been longer and during times of better business. Not saying Bret couldn't have had it better if his career wasn't cut short, but it happened, and Michaels went on to regain his top spot for another 5 years. It happened that way, and we can only judge on what happened, not what could have happened.

But no matter my personal feelings otherwise, he is received as one of the great technical wrestlers...again, not my cup of tea, but he's won over more people than my loud voice can cover. In the end, it's not markish reaction, it's a thought out analysis, and I think Michaels can easily be regarded as a greater icon of the industry.

Piper I've already covered...so we'll let that one be...

As for Taker. He's a top 10 choice for me. But I just don't see him as being a greater icon for the business than Michaels. This is one of those situations where you could have a hundred debates and it come up 50/50. But he just doesn't bring the total package like Michaels does, IMO.

TOVO Fact: My back hurts.

[FourFifty]

Lex Luger should be on that list before Goldberg, and I don't like Luger.... Plus I'm Jewish so I should be supporting Goldberg.

[Mooияakeя™]

<img src="http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/trishjovi/ShawnMichaels.jpg">

The fact that this belt is potentially the real deal and not some 'prop' of somesort, u have to respect HBK and the fact that through carriage, he has got every champion around the eagle belt time to touch his dick.

[Innovator]

I fucking love TOVO being back

[Scott Delaney]

The One is a faggit poo face.

How can you not have Steve Austin is the bestest wrestler of all time? He drew the most money and was also a very good wrestler. Hogen and Rocky are second and therd respectivily.

Here are the real rankings

Austin
Hogen
Rocky
Bret Hart
Shawn Micheals.

The One - Are u a new fan to wrestling? :lol: U beter be careful what you say otherwise people will flame you for not being informitive! :lol:

[Xero]

Hey man, I respectfully disagree with you.

[mike adamle]

i'm not really sure what i was thinking last night to be honest, i have a completely different opinion today than i did yesterday... i actually really like this list that's up now, still unsure about hbk being there, but since im not really a 60's or earlier wrestling guru i'm going to take your advice on this one and i was probably wrong about bruno.

[ron the dial]

only read page 1 of this thread because well it's the wrestling forum discussing the best ever and frankly i don't want to read all of that. a few things:

1) i did find an egg in the couch
2) the more and more i think about it and go back and rewatch matches from years ago, shawn michaels is probably my favorite of all time. his matches get better the more that i watch them. i can't say that about many guys.
3) a solid list. not sure about andre, and not because i don't like him. i just feel like somebody else should be in that fifth spot. not sure who, but i'll think about it and get back to you. maybe.

[The One]

1) i did find an egg in the couch

Tovo knows his Easter shit. ;)

Also, Andre is probably more deserving of a spot in the top five than Michaels. I mean when you talk about someone who was for nearly a decade THE top draw anywhere in the world, and someone who completely changed the business; it's Andre. Plus, and this is factually very hard to argue against, Andre is the reason WWE was able to change the format from regional territories to national promotion.

TOVO Fact: Tovo never uses regular strength Tylenol. EXTRA strength is the minimum for Tovo.

[Theo Dious]

Tovo knows his Easter shit. ;)

Also, Andre is probably more deserving of a spot in the top five than Michaels. I mean when you talk about someone who was for nearly a decade THE top draw anywhere in the world, and someone who completely changed the business; it's Andre. Plus, and this is factually very hard to argue against, Andre is the reason WWE was able to change the format from regional territories to national promotion.

TOVO Fact: Tovo never uses regular strength Tylenol. EXTRA strength is the minimum for Tovo.

I agree with this. The Andre bit AND the Tylenol bit. Andre played a huge part in defining the business. Michaels certainly became the best in almost everything he's done, but he walked a road that had been made before him. Granted he did make it a much better road that you'd much rather travel down... but when Andre came through, not only was there no road, there was a god damn forest there.

[ron the dial]

well maybe somebody else should not be in that fifth spot. it's not like i had a legit replacement anyway.

[Mr. Nerfect]

OK, and I see where you're coming from for a lot of this, but let me counter with a couple of points...

When Bret appeared on The Simpsons, it was when he was Champion. From the bottom of my heart, I truly believe someone called over to WWE, said they had an idea for a 10 second joke, and McMahon delivered his champ boy at the time. And on top of that, even with his Simpson cameo, I would wager dollar to penny that if you poled 100 random people who didn't watch wrestling, more would know Michaels than Hart. Honestly, I just think they would. It's kind of impossible to know for sure, but for idle speculation, I'm going with Michaels. It's not a hard leap of faith either since Michaels' career on top has been longer and during times of better business. Not saying Bret couldn't have had it better if his career wasn't cut short, but it happened, and Michaels went on to regain his top spot for another 5 years. It happened that way, and we can only judge on what happened, not what could have happened.

But no matter my personal feelings otherwise, he is received as one of the great technical wrestlers...again, not my cup of tea, but he's won over more people than my loud voice can cover. In the end, it's not markish reaction, it's a thought out analysis, and I think Michaels can easily be regarded as a greater icon of the industry.

Piper I've already covered...so we'll let that one be...

As for Taker. He's a top 10 choice for me. But I just don't see him as being a greater icon for the business than Michaels. This is one of those situations where you could have a hundred debates and it come up 50/50. But he just doesn't bring the total package like Michaels does, IMO.

TOVO Fact: My back hurts.

Well, see, that's pretty much what it comes down to. A lot of these debates, as much analysis as you try to put into them, come out as completely subjective things. I would make the statement that you have some icons that are just in a top seed. Men like Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, etc. Their ordering is debatable. And then you've got other men like Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart and The Undertaker, who are in a second seed of legendary.

When talking about just who is more iconic, Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart; Shawn Michaels or The Undertaker, I think the exact order is a bit too subjective to pinpoint.

Also, I hope your back gets better.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lex Luger should be on that list before Goldberg, and I don't like Luger.... Plus I'm Jewish so I should be supporting Goldberg.

Perhaps you are right, actually. I just know that every kid on my block had Goldberg merchandise before any of us really knew who Goldberg was.