To anyone who hasn't seen UFC 97 and is planning on watching later...

[Rob]

DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME.

[Blue Demon]

Pretty much...a fairly shitty PPV.

[Kris P Lettus]

Were any of the fights worth checking out?? I had to work last night but were gonna watch some of the fights today..

:(

[Stickman]

Not really. Shogan and Liddell maybe.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Stout vs. Wiman.... god I didn't realize MMA fans were such babies.

[Maluco]

I stayed up to watch it live...imagine my disappointment :(

[Fabien Barthez]

I thought Anderson Silva was incredible.

[Funky Fly]

How about Thales Leites everyone? Eh? Sooner or later Silva was gonna go to the ground wih him, right? 25th time's the charm.

[Fabien Barthez]

Well, one of the judges scored it 48-47. There is a judge who actually works in this sport who thought Thales won 2 rounds in that fight. Mind you, the last judge scored it 50-46, and i'm pretty sure MMA scoring is 10-9 or less.

[Impact!]

Could have judged one round a draw (10-10)

[Penner]

How about Thales Leites everyone? Eh? Sooner or later Silva was gonna go to the ground wih him, right? 25th time's the charm.

lol


yeah i enjoyed the stout fight

good ol london, ontario boy

[Vastardikai]

Krystoff by Kimura

Bad News Brown taught him well...

[Rob]

Well, one of the judges scored it 48-47. There is a judge who actually works in this sport who thought Thales won 2 rounds in that fight.

I had it 48-47 too. I gave Leites rounds 1 and 2. There was absolutely nothing in 1 and the second was definitely his.

But who cares? It all sucked a huge cock anyway.

[TheCreepingDeath]

Definitely check out Stout vs. Wiman sometime, if you can, but avoid the main event as if it were a Pat Patterson/Gerald Brisco Evening Gown match.

[Fabien Barthez]

Well, I had 50-45 but there you go. Round 4 was maybe even a 10-8. I said after his last fight that he looks like he wants to get some rounds in to execute his skills and that was shot down. What I saw in that fight was a guy get sloppily taken down once, struck maybe 5 or 6 times in the whole fight, and land virtually everything he threw. If Anderson Silva wants to bitch slap you for 25 minutes, you can either take it like Thales did, or bite back. In which case you will probably get your head knocked off. Feels like he is virtually asking for Hendo or Bisping, or maybe even GSP, whoever it may be he fights next to come out and push the pace, because thats exactly what he wants everybody he fights to do. I would bet anyone here 100 pounds that the next person to look to score a KO on Silva ends up on their back, and Silva has no swelling or cuts.

[SuperSlim]

Silva vs. GSP to me would be like a dream fight.

[Rob]

Silva doesn't deserve a superfight.

And Bisping or Henderson deserve the next 185lbs shot.

[Funky Fly]

I think at this point it's more about the fans generally wanting to see GSP push Silva's shit in.

[Kris P Lettus]

I have no idea why people are hating on Silva as of late.. Sure the Leities fight wasn't to par, and neither was the Cote fight for that matter but both were wins.. Before that Silva hadn't even gone out of the second round since leaving Pride in 2004.. He moved up to 205lbs and DOMINATED a heavy handed James Irving in dramatic fashion, has beaten everyone from Dan Henderson to Rich Franklin to Chris Leban and has destroyed all comers the UFC has fed him.. So what he has a few bad fights?? That's the thing about MMA, is seeing how styles collide and what not.. I am not for GSP moving up, but more agree with Rob that the winner of Bisping/Hendo deserves the next shot..

Anderson Silva is still pound for pound one of the greatest UFC fighters of all time and is no where near the end of his career..

[Funky Fly]

That last fight sucked because of Leites, pure and simple.

[Mr. JL]

I would not mind seeing another Silva-Henderson fight. Henderson won the first round of thier original fight and looked good in the second round until he got blasted with a couple shots and then submitted.

[Kris P Lettus]

That last fight sucked because of Leites, pure and simple.

Still haven't watched the Leites one, but I also feel the Cote fight was bad because of Cote, not Silva..

[NoJabbaNoBogRoll]

They should give him nothing but aggressive psychos from now on.

[Rob]

Talk about defending Anderson Silva! Fuck me it was blatantly his fault. Anderson Silva did nothing for 2 rounds against a guy who is expected to fuckng execute in the stand up. It was over 3 minutes into the first round before he even threw a punch! Funny how this fight was Leites' fault and the last was Cote's fault. Next blame goes to Bisping and Henderson.

Dana White blamed Anderson Silva in public and this was the man who he has pushed as the best fighter in the world for over a year now.

[Impact!]

Gotta agree with Rob here. In truth Leites probably did better than was ever expected of him. He not only won a round against Silva (could be argued two rounds), he also survived all five round/lasted 5 rounds, and didn't appear to be "in trouble" at all (well besides maybe one point on the ground)...Can't overly fault leites...

[Rob]

Anderson Silva in one fight made me NEVER want to see him fight again. Granted, he might have a wicked fight next time out that turns this around but right now I couldn't give a fuck about seeing him ever again. This guy wants the big fights and the big money and does the EXACT OPPPSITE that you are meant to do to get those things. He can't even talk English on the mic yet. How the fuck is this even possible?

[Kris P Lettus]

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Who cares if he doesn't speak english?? This isn't pro wrestling where people have to work the mic.. This is fighting and he is a great fighter..

[Funky Fly]

Anderson Silva in one fight made me NEVER want to see him fight again. Granted, he might have a wicked fight next time out that turns this around but right now I couldn't give a fuck about seeing him ever again. This guy wants the big fights and the big money and does the EXACT OPPPSITE that you are meant to do to get those things. He can't even talk English on the mic yet. How the fuck is this even possible?

lol I was thinking "fair enough" up until I got to the English bit. Learning another language, especially one as complex as English is hard. And whether you can speak a given language or not means fuck all in MMA. You show up, you fight, you leave. If Joe Rogan wants to talk to you, bring a translator.

[Destor]

Anderson Silva in one fight made me NEVER want to see him fight again. Granted, he might have a wicked fight next time out that turns this around but right now I couldn't give a fuck about seeing him ever again. This guy wants the big fights and the big money and does the EXACT OPPPSITE that you are meant to do to get those things. He can't even talk English on the mic yet. How the fuck is this even possible?
...have we forgotten this ISN'T a work?

[Destor]

Or is it a work and I missed the memo?

[Rob]

...have we forgotten this ISN'T a work?

What the hell does being a work have to do with anything?

Anderson Silva speaks English and yet doesn't cut promos in English for fans who support the UFC product. How does he expect to be a money player when he can't even talk to the people he wants to pay money to watch him fight?

You can argue about that all you like but EVERY big boxing, MMA and wrestling match in history has been built on hype with the sole exception of some Oscar De La Hoya fights (and even some of his were super hyped).

[Fabien Barthez]

Who give's a fuck if he doesn't speak English? They translate everything he says, and they even translated the cornermen. On top of that, he blaitantly has a girly natural voice. But even so, nothing could matter less.

He didn't get over-zealous against a BJJ world champion. Someone who if you give an arm or a leg, they will take home in their fucking rucksack. He threw strikes, no less that Lietes in the early rounds, and then he threw alot of strikes and beat him up to win the fight.

With the scoring, which you, rob apparently agree with, it looks like he is being scored against the expectations that come with Anderson Silva, not scored against his opposition. He didn't lose a round in that fight. He was always the more aggressive, he neautralised Lietes' ground attempts apart from one takedown and one clinch that were virtually inneffective.

He is the champion. He made a legit threat to him look like a amateur for 25 minutes. It's not all KO's and highlight reels. If it was, there would be little separation from the early days of UFC and I would never have garnered an interest in the sport. Anderson wasn't poor, he was just so good he made it look like he wasn't trying at all. He landed 2 jabs to the thigh, 23 straight kicks to the same knee and a reverse sweep that became a foot-stomp. Against a top 5 MW and BJJ world champion.

Anybody can get lucky and knock anyone out, someone who is truely brilliant, can make them look stupid, and poor and have the upper hand for a full 25 minutes.

I think your expectations and justifiactions you have given about Silva and his language, and how many punches he throws against someone who isn't throwing them either and how he is meant to come out, and have his opponent over his knee, spanking his arse in the first 90 seconds more than a bit neanderthalic to be honest.

I believe the man you are interested in watch, from what I can gather here is Kimbo Slice. He swings, he talks bullshit, he has a WWE appearance and background story that would be as suited.

[NoJabbaNoBogRoll]

This is gonna get ugly. :lol:

[Impact!]

Bob Sapp V Kimbo Slice...BOOK IT (Nothing to add)

[Rob]

Who give's a fuck if he doesn't speak English? They translate everything he says, and they even translated the cornermen.

Actually they don't translate him. They gave very brief overviews of what he says to make him sound better to the public.

And as for the scoring, all three judges gave Leites 10 points in the second round and a lot of neutrals scored the first to him too. Nothing to do with it being against Anderson Silva. Two guys did absolutely fucking nothing in a round and you have to give one of them the round. The way you are using opinionated scoring to boast your arguement is actually quite baffling.

And Kimbo Slice? Fuck off dude. You're chatting proper nonsense now.

[Maluco]

What Rob says is true actually. I speak Portuguese and although it is not crazy what Anderson says himself, it is more negative than what his cornermen choose to say.

I think he would get booed more if they translated what he actually says, and maybe thats why they don't let him loose with the English. I have heard him say things like it does not matter what the crowd think and that they need to have more respect for what is going on.

He is hurting his marketablilty, no doubt, but I don't think he cares, fortunately or unfortunately depending on what side of the argument you are on. Fighting is an art form to him and he will fight how he sees fit according to the opponent. It was a boring fight, but the way he was talking, he won and did it in a smart way without taking risks, he believed the crowd needed to respect the skills he was showing and he said at one point that they didn't understand what was going on.

[Rob]

Someone gets it.

I don't see what FB and the rest have a problem with the word "entertainment" for like it's a nasty pro wrestling term or something. You pay money to be entertained. Anderson Silva's last two fights have not been entertaining. If he came out and actually fought an attacking fight, they would have been. Simple. People don't buy into boring fights with people who aren't English talkers. Talk all the shit you want about it not mattering but it does.

Anderson Silva is never gonna be the star he thinks he should be because he is too busy thinking of fighting Roy Jones Jnr for some reason and it's never gonna happen. Should be concentrating on his own weight division. And he should be worrying about Michael Bisping, Dan Henderson and Brandon Vera (because if he fights against before his next title defense, it's gonna be at 205lbs against him) and they aren't gonna be scared. They will bring the fight to him.

I'll say this about Matt Hughes, he always tried to fight no matter what even when he was chasing record defenses and what not. So did Tito Ortiz, so did Randy Couture and so did Chuck Liddell. Sometimes you have a boring fight. It doesn't matter if you try to bring excitement to the people though. Fans aren't stupid. They respect effort.

[James Steele]

:lol:

Rob is an MMA smark.

On a serious note, I just do not understand how you can expect a professional fighter to do more than win and do what is in his best interest to maintain a long career and continue winning. I know there is an entertainment aspect to MMA, but that is not and should not be the main concern for the fighters. They should be concerned about winning fights and staying healthy, and they do not owe the fans anything. Either you enjoy the sport or you don't, just like every other sport in the world.

[Kris P Lettus]

Vera would be a good fight for him at 205.. Alot of that fight would be from the clinch..

[Super V]

Dave Meltzer texted it.

[Rob]

:lol:

Rob is an MMA smark.

On a serious note, I just do not understand how you can expect a professional fighter to do more than win and do what is in his best interest to maintain a long career and continue winning. I know there is an entertainment aspect to MMA, but that is not and should not be the main concern for the fighters. They should be concerned about winning fights and staying healthy, and they do not owe the fans anything. Either you enjoy the sport or you don't, just like every other sport in the world.

The UFC is built on exciting fights. Boring fighters have no place there. Dana White has talked about this for years. There is a reason they offer huge bonuses for best KO/Submission and best fight. To push exciting fights. This sport isn't built on win/loss records.

If I am wrong then tell me one top fighter who draw big money without having exciting fights? Even Randy Couture brought a level of excitement to fights that should have absolutely sucked normally.

[James Steele]

I understand exciting fighters draw money, but if the best fighters aren't getting the best fights because they are "boring" to some then the sport has no legitimacy and is nothing more than American Idol meets Gladiator battles.

[Reavant]

Anderson Silva is never gonna be the star he thinks he should be because he is too busy thinking of fighting Roy Jones Jnr for some reason and it's never gonna happen. Should be concentrating on his own weight division. And he should be worrying about Michael Bisping, Dan Henderson and Brandon Vera (because if he fights against before his next title defense, it's gonna be at 205lbs against him) and they aren't gonna be scared. They will bring the fight to him.



domeone reads the sherdog articles :lol:

[Fabien Barthez]

Yeah, I read that bullshit. Some not-journalist's idea of how someone he has never met or spoken to thinks.

I think Steele is right really. I understand the measures UFC go to to inspire their fighters to push the pace and go to finish, but its very fickle of a fat jock to sit there and say 'Why didn't he do his best Bruce Lee impression on a BJJ World Champion?' You know, he is hardly fucking Chris Leben now.

And this idea you are presenting that the best fighters are prepared to take a risk and lose (lol) to become stars, well Lyoto Machida has a world title, main event fight coming up, and he is (for want of a better phrase) the poster boy of what you are talking about, and the man who discredits what you are saying.

And his next fighter is not going to be scared and bring the fight to him. Bring the fight to Anderson, The counter striker Sliva. Do you not think that's the whole point of all this? I made a bet in this thread to anyone that will take it, so take it Rob. £100. Silva KO's whoever it is he fights next and remains unscathed.

Or you can just not, and continue to bitch about a world class fighter who's legitimate battles just don't make your heart race like a Shawn Michaels match.

[Rob]

domeone reads the sherdog articles :lol:

I've legit never been on Sherdog to read anything other than fighter records.

[Rob]

Yeah, I read that bullshit. Some not-journalist's idea of how someone he has never met or spoken to thinks.

I think Steele is right really. I understand the measures UFC go to to inspire their fighters to push the pace and go to finish, but its very fickle of a fat jock to sit there and say 'Why didn't he do his best Bruce Lee impression on a BJJ World Champion?' You know, he is hardly fucking Chris Leben now.

And this idea you are presenting that the best fighters are prepared to take a risk and lose (lol) to become stars, well Lyoto Machida has a world title, main event fight coming up, and he is (for want of a better phrase) the poster boy of what you are talking about, and the man who discredits what you are saying.

And his next fighter is not going to be scared and bring the fight to him. Bring the fight to Anderson, The counter striker Sliva. Do you not think that's the whole point of all this? I made a bet in this thread to anyone that will take it, so take it Rob. £100. Silva KO's whoever it is he fights next and remains unscathed.

Or you can just not, and continue to bitch about a world class fighter who's legitimate battles just don't make your heart race like a Shawn Michaels match.

You've lost the plot

Unitl his last fight, did Lyoto Machida, the counter striker you seem to love to talk about, have the rep for being the most boring fighter in the fucking history of the UFC? Is Lyoto Machida a known fighter who draws money? CASE AND POINT RIGHT THERE.

Bernard Hopkins made a career fighting defensively and it worked for him. He didn't draw and that's a fact. He was in one big PPV ever and it was against Oscar De La Hoya. And Oscar would draw huge numbers fighting a tree. Yeah good for Hopkins that he went down as a legend but his fights sucked and nobody paid big money to watch him. Fact!

It's an absolute fact that the last two Anderson Silva fights have sucked a cock. And Patrick Cote never ran from him.

Maybe you are happy paying to see boring fights. Good for you if you are. The majority of the fan fight public aren't though.

And you mock the idea that fighters take risks to make themselves stars but just look at the history books and it speaks for itself.

Oh and you are well brave wanting to put £100 on Anderson Silva winning in the distance. What's the odds on that? 1/4? You give me a price and I'll take your bet anyday. Mind you, you probably wouldn't pay up. I've made three bets with people on this site over the years and only one person - Adam Kirk - ever paid up.

[Rob]

I understand exciting fighters draw money, but if the best fighters aren't getting the best fights because they are "boring" to some then the sport has no legitimacy and is nothing more than American Idol meets Gladiator battles.

Why doesn't it? People don't pay to see boring fights. If Georges St. Pierre could beat everyone but was fighting to boring 5 round decisions then nobody would pay to watch him. Boxing has a history of world champions that didn't draw because they fought boring. All the highest paid fighters were exciting to watch.

Nobody wants to watch boring fights. UFC doesn't want to put on boring fights and thus will not push fighters who are boring since they are trying to sell PPV's. It's real simple. People mocked Brock Lesnar's rise saying he wouldn't have gotten the world title shot if he wasn't a draw but then he went and won the title so how is that not legit?

Tell me one more individual sport where boring athletes can draw? MMA is just as legit as everything else.

[Innovator]

Exciting fighters have to win, not just the boring guys. See Houston Alexander

People love Randy even though he went the distance in most of his fights, HE MADE THEM ENTERTAINING. I was standing for most of the Tim Sylvia fight

GSP goes in there and gets it done, no drunk boxing, no dancing.

[Innovator]

How can you sell a $40 PPV every month with a boring fight? If people are gonna depart with money, they want a little bang (or ground n pound) for their buck

[James Steele]

My point has nothing to do with UFC's financial success. My point is that a) MMA should try to not get away from boxing since boxing as about as much credibility as WWE's Wellness Policy, and B) a legitimate sport does not "push" fighters to the main event and such. How can you seriously say that a fighter with a 1-1 record in the UFC deserved a title shot against Randy Couture? Yes, Brock Lesnar is a draw but it shouldn't matter if he is or not. The best fighters fight for contendership and championships. To me, there is no difference you saying UFC should push "draws" and trying to present itself as a legititmate sport and if some soccor league didn't put a team in the World Cup just because they play "boring soccor" and don't bring in the ratings of a Manchester United or what have you.

[Fabien Barthez]

Machida's career certainly isn't going backwards in his career. And yes, he is boring, but technically outstanding, and his record of wins and losses are the reason he is fighting for the title of best fighter in his weightclass. He makes his money by being better than everyone he fights. He will get a main event paycheck, and will continue to do so if he wins regardless of cheers and boos.

I don't like to watch Floyd Mayweather box a great deal, but I appreciate the fact that he does what he likes because he is so much better than everyone he fights.

And as for Anderson, as far as I'm concerned, It is down to a challenger to win a title, not the Champion to put it in jeprody.

[Kris P Lettus]

Another example of a hated maineventer is Tim Sylvia.. He got a title shot in his what, third UFC match?? And everyone hated him..

[Rob]

Exciting fighters have to win, not just the boring guys. See Houston Alexander

People love Randy even though he went the distance in most of his fights, HE MADE THEM ENTERTAINING. I was standing for most of the Tim Sylvia fight

GSP goes in there and gets it done, no drunk boxing, no dancing.

Randy Couture got to such a legendary status that people just wanted to see him no matter if the fights sucked or not. But the key was he became a drawing superstar first. And people will still pay to watch him now.

Houston Alexander had exactly 2 kinda exciting fights and the UFC gave him every chance to become a star on the back of it and then continued to give him oppotunities once he started losing. Clay Guida is another guy who they will not part ways with no matter how much he loses now.

Obviously top guys have to win but if they do it by sucking the life out of their fights, they won't be main eventing for much longer. And they certainly won't be making top main event money and no matter what anyone says, the Lyoto Machida's, Clay Guida's and Anderson Silva's of the world are all fighting to make big money.

[Rob]

My point has nothing to do with UFC's financial success. My point is that a) MMA should try to not get away from boxing since boxing as about as much credibility as WWE's Wellness Policy, and B) a legitimate sport does not "push" fighters to the main event and such. How can you seriously say that a fighter with a 1-1 record in the UFC deserved a title shot against Randy Couture? Yes, Brock Lesnar is a draw but it shouldn't matter if he is or not. The best fighters fight for contendership and championships. To me, there is no difference you saying UFC should push "draws" and trying to present itself as a legititmate sport and if some soccor league didn't put a team in the World Cup just because they play "boring soccor" and don't bring in the ratings of a Manchester United or what have you.

Lesnar deserved his shot because he beat Heath Herring extremely convincingly and Herring was in line for a title shot. The only other guy was Fabricio Werdum and he got KO'd super quick in his next fight. Lesnar also BEAT THE WORLD CHAMPION and you can't get more of a deserving challenger than a man who fucking man handles the champion.

Teams sports aren't even comparable. I noticed that when I challenged you to name a boring top class drawing individual that you couldn't too. But let's compare Manchester United anyway. What team is on TV more than any other in the footballing season? MANCHESTER UNITED. People want to see them. Case and point right there. People didn't wanna see Chelsea in the Champions League when they were boring and it was proven when they had 1over 10,000 empty seats. If there wasn't a rule saying every team has to be on Sky or Setanta a certain number of times in a season then the Big 4 would be on TV every single week. It's the exactly same reason why Rangers and Celtic are on TV every week.

And UFC financial success means EVERYTHING. If they aren't making money, neither are the fighters and the shows don't happen. It's a real simple formula.

[Loose Cannon]

Agree with everything Rob is saying here. Hey, I argued the thing about Lesnar getting a shot before, but looking back, what a great move that was to give him the Title shot.

I know you guys would like for MMA to be this legite sport and steer away from things that are used in Pro Wrestling. The problem is that MMA is a National company, with TV deals, with advertisers, with sponsors. It's at the level where Business (PPV buys, merchandise, ticket sales) comes first and sometimes it will be at the expense of "deserving" fighters. It's just the nature of the Entertainment Business

MMA is not baseball, it's not soccer, it's not football and it never will be. MMA is Sports Entertainment. It's home base is Las Vegas. There's a lot of theatrical elements to it and that's needed for the sport to stay on top on a National Level. It needs it's crop of exciting and charasmatic fighters to pull fans in.

There's a reason they came up with the Ultimate Fighter TV show. It wasn't just to try and find great fighters. It was to introduce casual people to the next crop of stars in the UFC. The viewers got to see thier personalities outside of the Octogon and that's a huge part in selling tickets. When people can relate to fighters to where you really care if "fighter A" wins or loses, that's money in the bank all day long.

[Fabien Barthez]

I would argue with the case of Silva, he has made more money than a guy like him would ever want or need. If he was all about the money, he would have gone out and fourght with more risk, but he instead went out to improve his percentages and his w/l record.

If you honestly think Anderson Silva is more about the money than the competition, especially based on his fights since winning the belt, you are beyond nuts.

[Fabien Barthez]

Agree with everything Rob is saying here. Hey, I argued the thing about Lesnar getting a shot before, but looking back, what a great move that was to give him the Title shot.

I know you guys would like for MMA to be this legite sport and steer away from things that are used in Pro Wrestling. The problem is that MMA is a National company, with TV deals, with advertisers, with sponsors. It's at the level where Business (PPV buys, merchandise, ticket sales) comes first and sometimes it will be at the expense of "deserving" fighters. It's just the nature of the Entertainment Business

MMA is not baseball, it's not soccer, it's not football and it never will be. MMA is Sports Entertainment. It's home base is Las Vegas. There's a lot of theatrical elements to it and that's needed for the sport to stay on top on a National Level. It needs it's crop of exciting and charasmatic fighters to pull fans in.

There's a reason they came up with the Ultimate Fighter TV show. It wasn't just to try and find great fighters. It was to introduce casual people to the next crop of stars in the UFC. The viewers got to see thier personalities outside of the Octogon and that's a huge part in selling tickets. When people can relate to fighters to where you really care if "fighter A" wins or loses, that's money in the bank all day long.


I disagree with all but the last paragraph, which was only pointing out the obvious reasons for TUF from a promoters POV.

The nature of the game itself provokes more excitement and fast action per minute than most other sports. Its unpredictable nature is another reason for attracting an adrenaline keen audience. But it's based in Vegas because Boxing has had huge drawing success there, regardless of world perception at any time, and the guys who bourght it not only own a casino there, but have lived there forever. And on top of that, they wanted to show the Boxing audience a more exciting product and detract from the boxing fanbase.

Vegas also has some of the best PPV production and distribution facilities in the world.

So I would say locality, support base and distribution are why UFC is based in LV.

MMA IS AN ENTERTAINING SPORT

MMA IS NOT SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT.

That is the most stupid thing I've ever heard. The fact that you must have typed that out, and re-read it and then posted it boggles my mind.

Sports entertainment is a worked athletic contest, giving the perception of reality, with scripted build-up and finishes.

How is that anything like MMA? Because they do little pre-recorded vignettes before the fight? I'm not saying that because MMA is a legitimate sport, that promotion is destitute, but these are just subtle ways to hype the fight.... just like countdown... the guy looks like a beast in the gym, and then says a few sentences about how he is going to fuck up his opponent. That is just promoting your fight and showing yourself in a positive situation. Just because of how they promote the fights, does not make it Sports Entertainment.

It's sport! It's competition. It is a legitimate one on one physical contest. People were pissed off with Silva/Lietes because it wasn't as exciting as these legitimate fights usually are. It was still a legitimate fight though. For Silva, the risks of being over agressive outweighed the reward. He was winning the fight, just because the people watching were booing was no reason to try to push to finish the fight he was going to win even if he didn't up his aggression, and if he did, he would have increased the chances of Lietes finding an oppertunity to win the fight.

And that is the reason why he didn't hear boo's and start swinging for the fences, because he does MMA to prove that he cannot be beat, and he is the best at the sport he makes his profession. Not because he will get paid more to jeprodise his legacy.

Dana;s job is to promote, and he does a great job of it, but the longer this sport is going, the more fighters are going to be able to work out the counter or block or how to neautralise everything. that was a result of 2 guys with fairly neautralising skills. It is why the majority of Boxing is so boring. Every single flinch breath and facet has been concidered in the gym due to how we know fighters come forward and how they throw.

fact is, Dana cannot influence what happens during a fight anymore than he already does. And if he does feel he should say to Anderson 'Next time, could you push the pace a bit more and take more risks' then he is no better than Gary Shaw, and is only effecting the legitimacy of the 'Real as it gets' sport he has been promoting for 10 years.

[Rob]

So how does Dana White promote a fight where the champion doesn't want to fight?

If Anderson Silva isn't fighting for money then why the fuck is he in the UFC? Why not do a show in Brazil against anyone else for less money and less time away from home if he is only interested in winning fights? Let's just ignore how Anderson Silva has publically asked for BIG MONEY FIGHTS!!!

And Dana White or any promoter who is encouraging exciting fights is doing their job. It's nothing to do with fixing styles or finishes. If you can't fight exciting fights, you can't be promoted to draw money and then you are pretty much useless then. They couldn't even get anyone to fight Lyoto Machida a year ago and it wasn't because people were scared of losing. Tito Ortiz was forced into it and all the excitement about that fight was all from Ortiz, before, during and after the fight.

If Anderson Silva doesn't give a shit about exciting fights then why did every other champion in the UFC with the exception of Tim Sylvia give a shit?

[Fabien Barthez]

He is in UFC so he can beat the best. Some random arse fight in Brazil will be against some random arse fighter. In UFC, he fights legends like Rich Franklin and Hendo, and BJJ world champions. It's about beating the best and cementing his place as one of the best fighters of all time, some do it with PPV buys, money made and drawing power, others, like Anderson do it by having the statistics show him to be above other fighters.

Leites had an opertunity to take away the champions title and dent his record significantly, but chose not to. Anderson seemed happy to improve his massive strikes thrown/landed percentage and add another W to his record, has Leites brought the fight, he may have been forced to act more urgently to protect his resume.

But he didn't, so he didn't.

As for Ortiz, you are absolutely right. I don't totally agree with what you say about promotion/ I am intregued by Silva and Machida fights because they are guys to be beaten, not guy to go out and win. Sure, it's no chuck Liddell fight watching Machida, but I find myself fascinated by watching guys try and impose an advantage of Lyoto. Maybe that's just me.

But with all you said about Tito, he lost. And Machida has a title fight. Tito made good money, and didn't do a bad job of protecting his market value, but for some people. And this is the point I have been trying to get across this whole time....

their goal in life is to be the world champion in their chosen profession, and being a millionnaire will always be an unbelievable life-changing factor, but a secondary product of the intended result nonetheless.

[Reavant]

Alright I didnt want to ge into this but when I saw you say silva wanted to improve his percent strikes landed, my brain started to scream. Seriously? They just started doing that this ppv really. And you mean to tell me that a reigning title holder is actually worried about that?

[Rob]

Being that you have actually done some form of fighting, would you rather have a more than once boring 3 or 5 round decision or actually be known for having fights people would like to pay to watch. I'm quite curious to hear your opinion here.

[Loose Cannon]

Sports entertainment is a worked athletic contest, giving the perception of reality, with scripted build-up and finishes.

we're just going to go round and round, but know that not everything considered "sports entertainment" is worked. Wrestling is not the only thing considered sports entertainment. Yes, MMA is a legite sport, but my whole point was that you can't just take the two best fighters, put them in a cage, have them kill each other and think your going to draw huge numbers. it's all the marketing, promotion, TV specials and theatrics that MMA does (and does well) that is going to draw the numbers. The Main Event fighters may not be the best in the world, but I bet they are the best in putting asses in the seats and that is why they are main event. Those guys understand how to market themselves and promote a fight.

Someone just posted this in the Casual Forum the other day. This is PPV buys from Jan-Oct 2006. Obviously, they are 3 years old, but look at what was the #1 MMA draw on that list.

Most PPV buys, JAN-OCT 2006
1. BOX Oscar DeLa Hoya vs. Ricardo Mayorga 925,000
2. UFC Tito Ortiz vs. Ken Shamrock 775,000
3. UFC Matt Hughes vs. B.J. Penn 700,000
4. WWE Wrestlemania 636,000
5. UFC Matt Hughes vs. Royce Gracie 600,000
6. UFC Chuck Liddell vs. Renato Sobral 500,000
7. UFC Tito Ortiz vs. Forrest Griffin 425,000
8. BOX Shane Mosely vs. Fernando Vargas 420,000
9. UFC Chuck Liddell vs. Randy Couture 400,000
10.BOX Floyd Mayweather vs. Zab Judah 375,000

Tell me how Ken Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz drew that?

[Rob]

Although "sports entertainment" might be pro wrestling in Fabien's eyes but that doesn't make it true.

And for the record, only Vince McMahon ever called what they do "sports entertainment". Everyone else said "pro wrestling". Doesn't make them wrong now does it? And Vince McMahon doesn't even call it that anymore since they have been instructed to drop the "sports" part.

[Loose Cannon]

yea, I have never been a fan of wrestling carrying the "sport" name. Because it's not a sport. It's Entertainment with a level of athletisim or what have you.

[Kris P Lettus]

While MMA is a sport with a level of entertainment..

[Reavant]

Being that you have actually done some form of fighting, would you rather have a more than once boring 3 or 5 round decision or actually be known for having fights people would like to pay to watch. I'm quite curious to hear your opinion here.

Id want every fight I had to be exciting with me finishing an opponent. I would never deliberately go into a fight to win by decision. However if it was a tough fight and I knew I won the first two rounds decisively I would not be opposed to having a snoozer third round.

[Rob]

Id want every fight I had to be exciting with me finishing an opponent. I would never deliberately go into a fight to win by decision. However if it was a tough fight and I knew I won the first two rounds decisively I would not be opposed to having a snoozer third round.

So you wouldn't like to be a fighter who doesn't throw a punch in the first 3 minutes of a fight?

;)

[RP]

I think Silva is being pampered. There putting him in there against guys they know have no chance in hell to beat Silva. Leitas is strictly BJJ. He has nothing else. He dont have a stand up game. His wrestling is average. If Leitas stands up, he gets destroyed. His only game plan could be and would to flop to the ground and hope Silva came with him. But Silva isnt stupid. Basically, this was a horrible booking job. Dana White his full of shit if he stands at a press conference and acts like he should have gotten a better fight. He got the fight he booked. What did he think was gunna happen. Did he think Leitas was gunna lose his mind and stand and get blow up? Did he think Silva was gunna lose his mind and jump into the guard of a world class BJJ fighter? I dont blame either fighter. I blame Dana White and whoever else helped put this fight together. They got exactly what they were gunna get. If they didnt know thats what they would get, then they dont know what the fuck they're doing.

[Reavant]

So you wouldn't like to be a fighter who doesn't throw a punch in the first 3 minutes of a fight?

;)

I dream of hitting a big boot to the face and while the guy hits the grown, hitting a sweet peoples elbow

[Fabien Barthez]

Well that settles it then. You are right Rob, because a guy who has had 2 fights and dreams of just being on a UFC card brings the same mindset to the table as the MW champion who has won every fight he has had against championship opponents. Usually very fast.

I take nothing away from you Reav, but you see what i'm saying surely.

also, I didn't mean he is literally in the cage thinking 'if i land my next 10 strikes, i will gain a shots landed % increase' what I meant was he saw no standing threat from Leites so he was striking with more of a sparring mindset.

And LC, I know about promotion, and how they market the product and the specific fights. You are teaching me and presumably everybody else nothing. But what you fail to attend to is that every mainstream spectator sport is marketed in exactly the same way. You watch the NBA playoff final, the FA Cup final, The Snooker world championship final. Anything. They all market the contests in the same way,. with the same kind of dueling interviews, and previews, and timeline reminicants. The commercials will all hype 'the battle we've all been waiting for.

Thats not sports entertainment. Thats sport. and if it is a sport, it's called a sport. if its a scripted show purely for the amusement of its audience, and prodominantly features the illusion of a competative contest, requiring athletics and physicality, basically, if it is mimmicking the notion of a real sport, that's sports entertainment. The second world wasn't added to just to make other real sports sound more jazzy.

And former WWF wrestler and UFC original vs UFC poster boy was obviously the best MMA draw that year. I know they self promoted their rivalry, which was fairly real. it was the only fight that got TUF hyping on a weekly basis that year also.

and it did what? 11% more than Hughes/Penn? Twice as famous fighters, 10 times the promotion, only 10% extra PPV revenue.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Machida's career certainly isn't going backwards in his career. And yes, he is boring, but technically outstanding, and his record of wins and losses are the reason he is fighting for the title of best fighter in his weightclass. He makes his money by being better than everyone he fights. He will get a main event paycheck, and will continue to do so if he wins regardless of cheers and boos.

I don't like to watch Floyd Mayweather box a great deal, but I appreciate the fact that he does what he likes because he is so much better than everyone he fights.

And as for Anderson, as far as I'm concerned, It is down to a challenger to win a title, not the Champion to put it in jeprody.

Actually the reason Machida is fighting Evans is because Griffin and Jackson are injured.


However you do present good points. Anderson dominated Leites, he didn't get hit ever, and really out classed him. BUT it was helaciously boring. People pay good money to watch guys fight. I love Anderson Silva, but he was acting bored and as though he didn't want to be there, and you can't have your champ acting like that. This is a business, you need to draw money to keep business running smoothly, having 25 minute yawner main events is not going to draw audiences. Noone's asking for a bloody brawl, they just want work rate, if you give the work rate, noone's going to complain. (NOTE: I don't mean pro wrestling work rate, I mean DOING WORK in a fight). There was too much inactivity on both sides in that fight. The crowd had the right to start chanting GSP.

The only thing that made me really wonder in the fight was when the fight did go to the ground, Anderson had Leites in a shitload of trouble with the ground and pound, and then he just stopped... like it wasn't working. He could have easily finished him... other than that, it was Leites being a big flopper that was pissing me off.

[Rob]

Anderson Silva trying to open up on Leites isn't much as a gamble as it is for everyone else when you are by far the best striker in the company. Nobody was asking for a brawl. Just someone pushing the action and people can blame the challenger all they want. I agree they should come to fight. However, when the champion is clearly a league above you in the talent pool, I understand them being more cautious. And there isn't an excuse for the champion not to bring the fight to the challenger either. Doesn't matter who it is. It's 100 times more frustrating too when you know just exactly what Anderson Silva can do and he blatantly choses not to.

[Mr. JL]

It just seems like Silva was way more into faking his opponent out for 30 seconds-to-3 minutes and then striking him once or a few times than he was looking for openings to finish the fight. Silva took a few shot at Leites and then backed off and continued to do this both in the stand up and on the ground. Didn't help either that Leites kept falling to his back.

The GSP versus Fitch fight was a 25 minute war where GSP pushed the pace of the fight and Fitch was doing his best to stay in it besides being outclassed. GSP passed his defences and beat him up badly. It was an entertaining one sided fight with constant movement and GSP was always clearly looking to finish the fight at every moment. I don't hear anyone complain about this fight because the effort and work rate was there.

This same effort has not been prevelant in the past two Silva fights. Silva definitely needs to get his act together because he does not look like the fighter he used to be when he pummelled Leben, Franklin, Henderson and one shot knocked out The Sandman.

[Rob]

Just heard that on the basis of the Silva vs. Leites fight, Demain Maia isn't getting a title shot anytime soon. They are shit scared the same style of fight will happen again. If it does happen down the line, it won't be main eventing a show (probably semi main with a bigger title fight above it). Same goes for Yushin Okami who was apparently in line for the next shot.